Change of Brand for SAW Consumables

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Mhaskar Aly

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Apr 15, 2015, 10:18:33 AM4/15/15
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Dear All,

We have PQR of following details:

 

Process SAW with Filler Wire EM12K (ESAB) with Flux F7A8 (ESAB OK 10.62 Flux)

 

Question:

1.       Can we use Filler Wire EM12K (Bohler) with Flux F7A8 (ESAB OK 10.62 Flux)

2.       Can we use Filler Wire EM12K (Bohler) with Flux F7A8 (Bohler Flux)

 

Kindly advise as per ASME Sec IX…with reference.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Thanks & regards

 

Ali Mhaskar,

QA/QC Manager

Velath Engineering International FZC; Hamriyah FreeZone Sharjah, UAE; * P.O Box 6268 – Sharjah UAE.
(Phone: 00971-6-526 9269, 526 9185, 526 9119 Ext-212 ÈMobile no.: 00971-55 265 3598 ÊFax no. 00971-6-526 9393  üwww.velath.com

Bhagwat Ambule

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Apr 15, 2015, 12:45:50 PM4/15/15
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Dear Ali,

There is no any problem for use for material of two different manufacturer, because both are used same specification and both manufacturer's brand is good brand.




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Noe Mota

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Apr 15, 2015, 10:42:30 PM4/15/15
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You need to qualify both options simply because you have different heats for the wires, even if these were produced by the same supplier.

Regards
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Umar Makrani

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Apr 15, 2015, 10:42:31 PM4/15/15
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You can change the wps without a need to qualify. 

 

 

Thanks & Regards

 

Firoz Ahmed R. Makrani, PMP

Pravin G

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Apr 15, 2015, 10:42:29 PM4/15/15
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Dear Mr.Ali,

The only concern I have is should there be any mechanical failure, it will be difficult to judge whether is the wire or flux.

Certainly agree with Mr.Bhagwat that Bohler & Esab is well know brands. In my experience in SAW process, I have tried Kobelco wire + flux,
since they specially design 1 wire to 1 type of flux, I was able to achieve good mechanical properties.

In conclusion you can go ahead with the combination.

surya kumar

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Apr 16, 2015, 1:14:24 AM4/16/15
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Hello,

As per ASME sec-IX changing of filler metal manufacture is not an essential variable. So we can use both combination as per your mail.

Ref from ASME sec-IX : page 81 (Table QW-254 QW 404 filler metal 404.29 and 404.33) and page 131

QW-404.29 A change in the flux trade name and
designation.

QW-404.33 A change in the filler metal classification
within an SFA specification, or, if not conforming to a filler
metal classification within an SFA specification, a change
in the manufacturer’s trade name for the filler metal.
When optional supplemental designators, such as those
which indicate moisture resistance (i.e., XXXXR), diffusible
hydrogen (i.e., XXXX H16, H8, etc.), and supplemental
impact testing (i.e., XXXX‐1 or EXXXXM), are specified on
the WPS, only filler metals which conform to the classification
with the optional supplemental designator(s) specified
on the WPS shall be used.

Regards,
Asurya
0091 801 200 3470

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 15/4/15, Umar Makrani <firoz....@gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [MW:23110] Change of Brand for SAW Consumables
To: "material...@googlegroups.com" <material...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, 15 April, 2015, 10:55 PM
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/materials-welding/C241186E-AB0F-4AB1-98EA-BDE40754DCD0%40gmail.com.

pgoswami

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Apr 16, 2015, 7:14:02 AM4/16/15
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Hi  Mhaskar,
 
A change in wire +flux classification is an essential variable in Sec-IX, QW -404. Look under the variables tables for SAW, in ASME Sec-IX. 
 
If you change the Flux a new PQR would be required . Please see the clarifications below for your guidance.
 
For SAW flux is very important.Flux can alter the weld chemistry significantly. Note AWS guidelines are minimal.Some clients want the PQR to be established as brand specific. There are  reasons.Not all  EM-12K wires are the same.
 
Thanks.
 
 
Pradip Goswami, P.Eng,IWE
Welding & Metallurgical Engineer/Specialist
Ontario, Canada
 

QW-404.9

(a) A change in the indicator for minimum tensile strength (e.g., the 7 in F7A2‐EM12K) when the flux wire combination is classified in Section II, Part C.

(b) A change in either the flux trade name or wire trade name when neither the flux nor the wire is classified in Section II, Part C.

(c) A change in the flux trade name when the wire is classified in Section II, Part C but the flux is not classified. A change in the wire classification within the requirements of QW-404.5 does not require requalification.

(d) A change in the flux trade name for A‐No. 8 deposits

QW-404.5

(d) For SAW — from the chemical analysis of the weld deposit prepared according to the filler metal specification or the manufacturer’s or supplier’s certificate of compliance when the flux used was the same as that used to weld the procedure qualification test coupon

 

From: material...@googlegroups.com [mailto:material...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Umar Makrani
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 1:25 PM
To: material...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [MW:23110] Change of Brand for SAW Consumables


You can change the wps without a need to qualify. 

Thanks & Regards

 

Firoz Ahmed R. Makrani, PMP

On Wednesday, 15 April 2015 7:48 PM, Mhaskar Aly <mhask...@gmail.com> wrote:


Dear All,
We have PQR of following details:
 
Process SAW with Filler Wire EM12K (ESAB) with Flux F7A8 (ESAB OK 10.62 Flux) --  Wire flux classification test must be available as per SFA 51.7
 
Question:
1.       Can we use Filler Wire EM12K (Bohler) with Flux F7A8 (ESAB OK 10.62 Flux) --  Yes , provided Bohler wire has a certification as EM-12K wire and a defninite trade name.
2.       Can we use Filler Wire EM12K (Bohler) with Flux F7A8 (Bohler Flux) -- NO YOU NEED A SEPARATE PQR. Look 2 QW-409 (C)

Gurunathan R

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Apr 16, 2015, 10:28:38 AM4/16/15
to Materials-Welding
Please refer the interpretation below.


Status:  Currently Valid
Other Links:
________________________________________________________________________________   
Interpretation:    IX-83-169
Subject: Section IX, QW-404.9
Date Issued: May 14, 1985
File: BC85-089

Question: For submerged-arc welding, can a fabricator use a different brand of flux than that specified in a wire-flux classification for which he is qualified, without performing a new PQR?

Reply: No.


Best Regards,
Gurunathan.R

--

raouf salhi

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Apr 16, 2015, 10:28:43 AM4/16/15
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Dear Aly ;

There is no problem to change ( we have the same classification and specification according ASME sect. IX).

Regards
 
SALHI Raouf
QA/QC Engineer

Tel: Morocco +212628979891
      Tunisia +21621458258



Malusare Vijay

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Apr 17, 2015, 1:08:30 AM4/17/15
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Dear 

Please refer below,

QW-404.35 A change in the flux/wire classification or a change in either the electrode or flux trade name when not classified in an SFA specification. Requalification is not required when a wire/flux combination conforms to an SFA specification and a change is made from one diffusible hydrogen level to another (i.e., a change from F7A2‐EA1‐A1H4 to F7A2‐EA1‐A1H16). This variable does not apply when the weld metal is exempt from impact testing by other Sections. This exemption does not apply to hard facing and corrosion‐resistant overlays.

-- 
With Best Regards, 
Vijay.A.Malusare
Engineer

george....@gr.bureauveritas.com

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Apr 17, 2015, 1:32:39 AM4/17/15
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This interpretation is too old.
Please refer to the latest edition of the Code Section IX - QW 404.35

best regards

Dr. Georgios Dilintas

Authorized Nuclear Inspector
Authorized Inspector Supervisor

I&F REGIONAL TECHNICAL MANAGER
BUREAU VERITAS PIRAEUS - GREECE

Tel: +30 210 40 63 113 /4 /5
Fax: +30 210 40 63 118
Cell: +30 69 44 64 62 04


Inactive hide details for Gurunathan R ---16/04/2015 17:28:46---Please refer the interpretation below. Status: Currently ValidGurunathan R ---16/04/2015 17:28:46---Please refer the interpretation below. Status:  Currently Valid

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Kannayeram Gnanapandithan

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Apr 17, 2015, 7:41:40 AM4/17/15
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No in classicification, only brand name is changed which is not essential for no impact requirements. It can be used

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/materials-welding/OF638A3179.D4435A26-ONC2257E2A.001E5636-C2257E2A.001E6C88%40LocalDomain.

Jim Price

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Apr 17, 2015, 8:02:47 AM4/17/15
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PQRs are welded to filler metal and flux classifications not brand names.

pgoswami

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Apr 17, 2015, 8:31:52 AM4/17/15
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To Everyone in Welding and Materials Community,
 
This query has generated many responses, many just on the fly some are detailed. SAW is a key welding process for any good fabrication related work. FLUX is the key to any SAW process, more than filler wire. Hence a change of flux is considered as an essential variable.
 
Wire flux classification test is done by manufacturers in undiluted test pads or groove joints (see SFA 5.23). Those results vs. the the PQR results differs in many instances, due to dilution ,heat input........etc.
 
Hence if the flux is changed the PQR should be prequalified.
 
ASME interpretations are one or two lines, many be a short paragraph with a lot of inner meanings.
 
Perhaps a spread sheet with all the pro and the cons would be beneficial to all.
 
Also I would like to say the question is open ended. If one is asking an engineering solution, design code, specifications, technical requirements all needs to be considered, which is missing for many queries off late.
 
Thanks.
 
 
Pradip Goswami, P.Eng,IWE
Welding & Metallurgical Engineer/Specialist
Ontario, Canada
 

From: material...@googlegroups.com [mailto:material...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Price
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 7:59 AM
To: material...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [MW:23123] Change of Brand for SAW Consumables

image001.gif

Prakash Hegde

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Apr 17, 2015, 11:46:40 PM4/17/15
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Dear Friends
I fully agree with Mr Goswami
Flux plays the major role in getting the results especially Impact results with respect to PWHT condition and preferably we can not change the combination (Brand) unless it is tested with simulation condition as per Job requirement
I would like to share the exeperience -By changing the combination of Flux brand (Even though thechanged Flux satisfy the code equirement as per ASMe Code) with using the earlier qualified PWHT condition like temp,Soaking time heating/cooling rate and also Heat input we could not achieve the Impact results as desire
Therefore I used to requialify the PQR with revised changes in Flux/wire combination (Brand)
(Only for Non critical requirement i.e. only for UTS requirement you can use the changed brand however it is better to test UTS on PTC)
Regards
Hegde P.B.
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 17/4/15, pgoswami <pgos...@quickclic.net> wrote:y

Subject: RE: [MW:23124] Change of Brand for SAW Consumables
To: material...@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, 17 April, 2015, 6:01 PM





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Gurunathan
R ---16/04/2015 17:28:46---Please refer the interpretation
below. Status:
 Currently Valid

From:
Gurunathan R <sane...@gmail.com>
To:
Materials-Welding
<material...@googlegroups.com>
Date:
16/04/2015
17:28
Subject:
Re:
[MW:23116] Change of Brand for SAW Consumables
Sent
by: material...@googlegroups.com







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