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Thanks for getting the ball rolling on this guys. Most appreciated.One quick comment. The Constitutional Committee as proposed is extremely homogenous, being comprised entirely of long-term Kubernetes technical leaders (in fact all approximately founders), and all but one with significant time at Google. This in addition to being the same nationality, gender, etc. I wonder whether it would be beneficial to inject some diversity. One or more relatively newer community members, and/or members with a majority of recent experience on projects outside Google and Kubernetes, to help to throw some new light on old topics would be good IMO. I'm a little concerned about the potential for tunnel vision otherwise.To be clear, I have no concerns about the individual proposed committee members at all, just about the relative lack of diversity within the group.
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>> >> developer/contributor discussion <kubernetes-dev@googlegroups.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> As someone dealing with scheduling, I dread 9, but I'd be OK with it.
>> >>> I want to avoid any perception of illegitimacy, for sure - other
>> >>> voices?
>> >>>
>> >>> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 1:14 PM, 'Chen Goldberg' via Kubernetes
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So about 45 people brought this thread up to me, wondering my thoughts and
honestly I had not even read it until just now, mostly because like I told them
"I think project governance is just open source political bullshit" and also
because ETOOMANYMAILINGLISTS
I am going to be honest with my opinions on
this, not to be mean, but because I care and I know you all actually want this
to be "real project governance" even tho I know I am overwhelmingly cynical
with my thoughts on if that is possible. If I didn't care I would have just
watched this fire burn from afar with some kinder eggs ;)
I think this thread started off great, but of course it was doomed in the wayall project governance is doomed to political bike sheds. I've honestly neverseen it done well but I've seen it crash and burn multiple times and havewitnessed the pain of friends I know who are Linux subsystem maintainers.I think Quentin brought
up a good point about diversity _but_ (and I say this as _only_ my opinion), I
(as a woman) would not want to be "the token diversity candidate." And to be
honest that is what this is shaping up to be. I know you all have the best
intentions so obviously it is not meant as that but if you have "the five"
(which lol I just learned this) and then "the diversity candidates" that is
quite literally what that is.
I agree with Chen that there should be nine so
that it is not that, although honestly at this point I don't know if there is a
way to save it from those people feeling like they were only chosen because of
who they are and not their contributions.
But I digress. I also think it is
really making so much more pain for ourselves having this "meta governance
planning committee" rather than just Doing The Damn Thing and getting it over
with, but I won't even dive down that rabbit hole.
If you want this to work and not be some power grabbing bike shed, I think weshould learn from the fantastic failures. I am more than willing to see if my friendwho is the maintainer for the graphics subsystem of Linux would give his opinionbecause he is "one of the good ones." My personal ideal scenario that could workwould be sig leads are the equivalent of linux subsystem maintainers, they do theirown thing and every so often "pull" Linus who in this case is the governance peoplewho are actually nice. The governance "squad" then determines if the sigs work isin line with the "global vision" and points then kindly in the right direction if not.There might even be a kind of "skip level manager" type thing where sig memberscould escalate to the squad if they had a problem with the sig lead. But reallythe squad should just stay out of it and just have the goal of keeping "the vision."
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Hey Jess,Thanks for the feedback. Here are my thoughts:9 is too many, we've been dragging our feet on this effectively forever, it's already a bad problem and it's going to get worse. We need to start getting closure now before the fissure gets any more pronounced. The 5 (now 7) that we're going to use will be temporary, so I'd err on the side of speed rather than the perfect number of people in order to get things sorted quickly-ish.I think that the general proposal for governance that you suggested is basically exactly what I had in mind.That's why the outcomes that we will produce are:1) A document that captures where we are, we have survey data that indicates people don't know how decisions are currently made. Hopefully this doc will help with that.2) A document that describes "sig-level" vs "project level" decisions, and a rubric for determining how we figure out which decision fits at which level. I expect that there will be high autonomy for sig level decision making (e.g. I want to ignore all that stuff) but we need a way of pulling things up to the project [e.g. repo refactoring is very cross cutting] or pushing things down on sigs [e.g. test flake fixdes]) when necessary3) A document that describes how sig-level or project level decisions are made.With these things, I think we will achieve what you are hoping for. I have no doubt that it will be better than what we have now.Anyway, I hope you continue to help us along the way, rather than just watching us burn :)Best--brendan
On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 8:02 AM 'Tim Hockin' via kubernetes-governance <kubernetes-governance@googlegroups.com> wrote:
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I understand the argument that having nine will just add more opinions
and more time.
I would however like to withdraw myself as one of the nominated mostly
because my opinions on these matters are far too cynical to be
productive. The offer still stands, however, to put you in touch with
people _outside_ k8s that I think will give you a very interesting
perspective on how _not_ to do this.
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I accept the offer.
>>>> >>>>&
Np! I actually forgot the most important thing. Regardless of what model you decide on, you need a process to iterate and change the model if necessary. The problem with most governance is the ones within power obviously don't want change because that means they might lose some of that. This leads to broken models and communities, where the only thing you can do is wait for someone to retire (or something darker) to change the system.
Congratulations!
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/kubernetes-dev/CAO_RewbeU%3DNgVgsxc7Sy3GhX0E4yXaaNV8gf5UGpshz%3DiORDig%40mail.gmail.com.
Tim- Sorry for the quietness on this thread, KubeCon and such. I am excited to get this underway and out of our way.Clayton- Has the "what we have now" document started?There is a bit of cynicism on this thread about the point of this all. My hope for the outcome is we continue to keep the spirit of Kubernetes's consensus building process while creating clear conclusions.For example, I have helped create a couple of global community processes including Incubator and Security Release Process. These processes largely are working OK and I think were built in the "kube way" meaning:- both were built through consensus and over communication- both were reviewed by internal AND external experts- both have been updated as problems have been found again through rough consensusWhat isn't great is that there are some decisions both of these things need help with to make them sustainable:- both need criteria for inclusion e.g. how to get advanced security disclosure to vendors OR the threshold for becoming a Kube umbrella project- both need criteria for team additions/removals (it isn't code commits!)- both need ways of better recognizing people doing the hard workWith both of these processes I have pulled in the usual suspects and we just make it happen: thanks Brian Grant, Jess Frazelle, Sarah Novotny, Caleb Miles, and others! But, if we are going to continue to make this successful we need to ensure we continue to expand the voices and people making stuff happen and ensure that not everything must be created through sheer force of will.Why? Well, selfishly I am getting overloaded owning a number of things. Secondly, diversity of opinions and organization will only happen if we start to figure out how to onboard people who aren't the usual suspects.I know we can sort this stuff out and help our community grow. Lets do this!
Cheers,Brandon
P.S. Tim, My last name is Philips; this has caused confusion in the past, paritcularly for Elsie and I: https://twitter.com/BrandonPhilips/status/849423944285396992
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Tim- Sorry for the quietness on this thread, KubeCon and such. I am excited to get this underway and out of our way.Clayton- Has the "what we have now" document started?There is a bit of cynicism on this thread about the point of this all. My hope for the outcome is we continue to keep the spirit of Kubernetes's consensus building process while creating clear conclusions.For example, I have helped create a couple of global community processes including Incubator and Security Release Process. These processes largely are working OK and I think were built in the "kube way" meaning:- both were built through consensus and over communication- both were reviewed by internal AND external experts- both have been updated as problems have been found again through rough consensusWhat isn't great is that there are some decisions both of these things need help with to make them sustainable:- both need criteria for inclusion e.g. how to get advanced security disclosure to vendors OR the threshold for becoming a Kube umbrella project- both need criteria for team additions/removals (it isn't code commits!)- both need ways of better recognizing people doing the hard workWith both of these processes I have pulled in the usual suspects and we just make it happen: thanks Brian Grant, Jess Frazelle, Sarah Novotny, Caleb Miles, and others! But, if we are going to continue to make this successful we need to ensure we continue to expand the voices and people making stuff happen and ensure that not everything must be created through sheer force of will.Why? Well, selfishly I am getting overloaded owning a number of things. Secondly, diversity of opinions and organization will only happen if we start to figure out how to onboard people who aren't the usual suspects.
I know we can sort this stuff out and help our community grow. Lets do this!
Cheers,Brandon
P.S. Tim, My last name is Philips; this has caused confusion in the past, paritcularly for Elsie and I: https://twitter.com/BrandonPhilips/status/849423944285396992
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On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 10:29 AM, Brandon Philips <brandon...@coreos.com> wrote:Tim- Sorry for the quietness on this thread, KubeCon and such. I am excited to get this underway and out of our way.Clayton- Has the "what we have now" document started?There is a bit of cynicism on this thread about the point of this all. My hope for the outcome is we continue to keep the spirit of Kubernetes's consensus building process while creating clear conclusions.For example, I have helped create a couple of global community processes including Incubator and Security Release Process. These processes largely are working OK and I think were built in the "kube way" meaning:- both were built through consensus and over communication- both were reviewed by internal AND external experts- both have been updated as problems have been found again through rough consensusWhat isn't great is that there are some decisions both of these things need help with to make them sustainable:- both need criteria for inclusion e.g. how to get advanced security disclosure to vendors OR the threshold for becoming a Kube umbrella project- both need criteria for team additions/removals (it isn't code commits!)- both need ways of better recognizing people doing the hard workWith both of these processes I have pulled in the usual suspects and we just make it happen: thanks Brian Grant, Jess Frazelle, Sarah Novotny, Caleb Miles, and others! But, if we are going to continue to make this successful we need to ensure we continue to expand the voices and people making stuff happen and ensure that not everything must be created through sheer force of will.Why? Well, selfishly I am getting overloaded owning a number of things. Secondly, diversity of opinions and organization will only happen if we start to figure out how to onboard people who aren't the usual suspects.I know we can sort this stuff out and help our community grow. Lets do this!+1 to all of that (including the part about being overloaded). I'm thrilled to have your help and looking forward to making it easier for more people to be more deeply involved.
Cheers,Brandon
P.S. Tim, My last name is Philips; this has caused confusion in the past, paritcularly for Elsie and I: https://twitter.com/BrandonPhilips/status/849423944285396992
>>> >>>> >>>> wrote:<br class="m_264901953891
I've left a comment on the governance umbrella issue with my thoughts from looking at other governance models for OSS communities; maybe they'll be helpful for folks.
We will then take these documents back to the community on approx. April 17 for one week of public commentary, followed by one week ofrevisions to address the comments, followed by a ratification vote by the committee two weeks following the initial public release of the documents.