Part II The dangers of monoglot eccentric one-track theories accompanied by ad hominem remarks and non sequiturs
John Lamb
Dear Don,
My reply did not post properly on the last thread, so I have opened a new one under the same title (thanks Bill) .
thankyou for your analysis and the time spent on it. These are not coincidences. I have long maintained that while the adventures of Captain Nemo use Semmes as a literary template, his morals are of the abolitionist and so, as you say Nemo is Semmes's alter ego (the anti Semmes that you state) is proved by the polar opposite portraits of Lincoln and Brown in his cabin compared to Semmes's portraits of Davis and Lee. Indeed I will go further and say that Semmes is a metaphor for the United States at war with itself between 1861-65 - hence his tormented soul. ...remember Verne asks what clues the portraits give us as to his soul.
Semmes disappeared to Paris in September 1864 with Francis Tremlett, the custodian of his memoirs, leaving Tremlett to travel home while he stayed in Paris alone for over a week. (Fox 2007)
My reply to your posting is in bold while my original statement is in italics
Both Semmes and Nemo are philosopher captains
Verne wanted to discuss philosophy in his book, so Nemo likes to talk about philosophy.
Semmes was a Professor of Moral Philosophy though and so exceptional as a sea captain that one of his many biographies is called 'The Philosophical Mariner' hence the Verne link.
with their origins in Mobile,
Nemo is Indian, and adopted the Latin motto Mobilus in Mobile, in light of his chosen life of navigating the world’s oceans.
Semmes was from Mobile Alabama still a great play on the Latin by Verne if you accept the Semmes Nemo link.
who have lost their vessels during a great storm,
Nautilus is not lost in a storm.
Agreed I will withdraw this.
they both are captains of ironclad rams
Ships meant to attack other ships often had rams.
No they didn't not until the American Civil War in the 1860's ..revived them as part of ironclad warships, peak reached in 1866 the year 20,000 Leagues is set. Semmes was captain of CSS Virginia II towards the close of the war.
down a whirlpool
Alabama is described as leaving a whirlpool behind when she sank (something sinking ships do) Nautilus disappeared in the Maelstrom of Lofoten, a known navigational hazard of the coast of Norway.
Yes, but this is still the likely inspiration for the Maelstrom, I shall change it to ‘disappear leaving a ‘freak whirlpool’ behind, so cchoing officer Sinclair’s eyewitness account. Of the sinking of the CSS Alabama.
and by an explosion.
The Nautilus is deliberately scuttled after Nemo’s death. It is not lost in an explosion. The island blows up sometime later.
If it is scuttled then you can still find it, but you can not find a submarine after a volcanic explosion destroys a whole island hence the Nautilus ironclad and Semmes’s Virginia II were both lost in an explosion.
Both captains have ships related to the word Nautilus,
Semmes connection to “Nautilus House” in Birkenhead is tenuous at best, while “Nautilus” as a name for an armoured submarine is a fairly mundane connection.
The Alabama was commissioned from Nautilus House, Liverpool (not Birkenhead), the European Headquarters of the Confederacy in Europe. The building is now known as Alabama House and so the connection is definitely not ‘tenuous at best’. It is an intriguing fact that this may have been the real reason Verne chose the word Nautilus, we can never be sure for certain.
which is either 85% or 95% built in Birkenhead by John Laird,
Laird provided hull plating for Nautilus. Other components came from all over Europe and New York. All these parts were shipped to a secret location, and assembled there.
Laird provided both the internal and external hull, this makes up over 80% of the weight of the final Nautilus. This is significant as both the CSS Alabama and the Nautilus are…mainly built at Lairds ….and completed on a desert island, a sequential clue by Verne.
Alabama was built by Laird.
in secret,
That the Alabama was being built for the Confederacy was well known at the time. The Americans even tried to intercept her after she left Liverpool, before she could be armed, but missed her.
I make this clear that the Alabama was a warship built in secret in my expanded text.
✓ Emerging Civil War Website
Commander James Bulloch, chief Confederate purchasing agent in Europe, secretly contracted to build Alabama at Liverpool.
to a secret design and finished on a remote island,
The Alabama was provisioned and armed in the Azores
both Semmes and Nemo speak several languages
Nemo being a polyglot was fairly standard Verne characterization.
Agreed but Semmes is exceptional for a captain and possible literary inspiration.
In Memoirs he presents quotations in Latin, French, and Spanish, all without translation, assuming that any intelligent reader would understand them. He sprinkles the narrative with brief snatches from the Bible, Shakespeare, Francis Bacon, Walter Scott, Horace Greeley, Tocqueville, the English poet James Montgomery, the Confederate Poet Father Abram Ryan – and his favourite poet, Lord Byron, with eleven quotations.
(Fox 2007)
and have a multinational crew
Nemo’s crew was Indian.
As I have said one crew member speaks French in distress, they use a universal language, Nemo is Indian and the unknown quoted phrase repeated is certainly not Indian in derivation. I shall withdraw this though as this is arguable.
in a vessel approx 225 feet long and 25 feet wide, both vessels are known for their speed, agility
If you are writing about a super fancy new type of ship, you aren’t going to make it a lumbering ungainly boat.
Fair enough but it would be raised here if the dimensions were not comparable.
and having a recess in their hull
The Alabama could pull its propeller up out of the water to reduce drag when under sail.
The Nautilus had a dingy nestled in a recess of her hull.
together with a water condenser,
Becoming common equipment for ocean going vessels. Alabama used condensed steam from its steam engine, Nautilus boiled and condensed sea water using electricity.
The water condenser was still a rarity though in the 1860’s and a major new advantage to Semmes over other ships. He credited it for not losing a single crew member to disease and it increased his cruising independence. Recessed propeller is very rare.
both Semmes and Nemo sink ships around the world and are denounced as pirates and feature in the New York Herald,
The Herald compares Semmes with other notable pirates. It asks Professor Aronnax what he thinks is going on.
both captains cause great consternation in Liverpool,
People sinking their ships will tend to do that.
Liverpool was the home port (Birkenhead to be more precise) of the Alabama, The Scotia is a Liverpool based ship… hence the more specific rather than generic link you suggest.
have a vessel whose appearance deceives enemy shipping
Semmes would approach while flying a false flag (A common commerce raider tactic.) People didn’t know what the heck the Nautilus was, having never seen anything like it before.
Yes so we agree?
and threaten to put up insurance costs,
Sinking ships will do that.
But that is the crux of the whole matter, is that these are books about one ship that sails the oceans sinking other ships… hence Semmes’s real life Memoirs and Verne's fiction will share common themes but both the number of links and preciseness of the named links raise this above coincidence.
both captain’s voyage for 70,000 miles (twenty thousand leagues),
20,000 lieues is 50,000 miles. (English measure had no direct translation for “lieue” as Verne used it, but league was close enough.)
As mentioned in a previous discussion Semmes used British maritime Leagues, so if you accept the Semmes link (which I know you don’t) …this gives 70,000 miles.
both captains are chased by just one ship by a commander named Farragut of the United States Navy
Admiral Farragut may have been responsible for sending a ship after Semmes, but he didn’t take part in the chase.
Figuratively speaking Farragut did chase Semmes I will put a comma in and change to
both captains are chased by just one ship, by a commander named Farragut of the United States Navy
The Farragut Lincoln double link should shout out at you
Verne likely picked Farragut for the name of the commander of the Abraham Lincoln because it was a familiar name of an American naval commander.
No, Verne picked it as wordplay. Semmes is chased around the seas by Admiral Farragut under the orders of Abraham Lincoln, Nemo is chased around the seas by Commander Farragut on the ship Abraham Lincoln.
sailing out of Brooklyn,
Where many ships leaving New York sailed from.
Both the CSS Vanderbilt and the fictional naval ship Abraham Lincoln leave Brooklyn naval yard to chase the CSS Alabama and Nautilus respectively. Verne could have made the chasing ship leave any shipyard in the world – that is the link.
and Abraham Lincoln, both Semmes and Nemo have a portrait of a civil war President and soldier above their bed,
Semmes had Jefferson Davis, and Robert E Lee. Nemo had Lincoln, and JOHN BROWN!
Exactly, as I have always maintained Nemo is the alter ego of Semmes and this answers Verne’s question as to what clues the portraits give to the soul of Captain Nemo. I have answered that question. Do you have a better answer?
Is this all coincidence then, find another book real or fictional where it is said the captain has the president and a civil war related combatant as portraits
and many ships chronometers on their bedroom wall
Semmes had a collection of trophies from ships he had captured.
Nemo had his navigational tools.
Yes…another inspiration.
and both captains have a bounty put on their head by Farragut,
The US Navy Department put a $300,000/$500,000 bounty for the sinking/capture of the Alabama.
Commander Farragut offered a $2,000 reward for the first person to sight the “whale” they were chasing.
Why no comment here it is another double linked clue by Verne.
both captains are so infamous they are sung about in cafes, jeered at in newspapers and in theatres,
Something that happens with infamous pirates.
Agreed, but Semmes was the most infamous pirate of the 19th century. Do you have the names of several other infamous 19th century pirates you can give as matching all the songs, newspaper headlines, cartoons and theatre productions produced about Semmes….I don’t think so.
both their vessels are compared to sea monsters
The Alabama metaphorically so, while people thought the Nautilus was a real sea monster.
Agreed, but give another reference to a 19th century warship that hunts alone and sinks ships.
and their captains debate whether marine animals can pierce a ships hull,
Not much debating. Swordfish and narwals have been known to do that.
Yes but it is common to both books and is a very rare thing to express.
both their vessels are illuminated by an eerie light
The Alabama is described as being illuminated by a phosphorescent sea, while the Nautilus’s electric lights were something not seen before by the people witnessing them.
and both captains have a great love of marine life, both talk about sleeping whales and whether right whales can cross the equator,
Much of 20,000 Leagues is an excuse for Verne to talk about the great variety of sea life.
Yes but the two whale links are incredibly obscure so heightening my whole argument.
both captains destroy those who kill whales
Whalers are a lucrative target for a commerce raider.
Nemo slaughters a pod of sperm whales under the mistaken belief that they kill other whales.
Yes Semmes kills whalers who kill whales while Nemo kills whales that kill whales, a great line when you think about it.
and have been credited by modern conservationists as having saved the whale from extinction,
Semmes and other commerce raiders by putting a serious dent in the amount of whaling going on. Verne by inspiring an interest in the conservation of sea life.
both captains talk at great length about the formation of coral, referring to it as ‘madrepores’
Madrepora are a common variety of coral, and is often used as a generic name for all stony corrals.
and debate whether coral is animal, mineral or vegetable,
A common debate among naturalists of the time
But not captains of warships like the CSS Alabama and that is why you miss the point here.
both talk about coral mausoleums,
Semmes metaphorically when describing reef formation, Verne has Nemo literally burying his fallen crewmen in a coral cemetery.
Incredibly rare when you think about it, Semmes is captain of a warship remember. Does this not seem more than a coincidence to you?
The coral linkages all fit together as a sequential clue , you have to view the whole when looking at the detailed quotes.
both captains describe the Gulf Stream, its source and effects,
Something of great interest to anyone sailing in the North Atlantic Ocean.
praise the oceanographer Mathew Fontaine Maury
Still considered the father of modern oceanography.
and regret his fall from grace after the American Civil War,
Pity he was a slavery loving traitor.
Yes but the Maury double link is far more important – this is not coincidence and I find it amazing that given all this, you do not too.
Remember I have two other Verne novel to fall back on (particularly Mysterious Island) but you will still trot out coincidence then as I am sure you do in my peer assessed article re Mysterious Island in the International Journal of Science Fiction.
both captains encounter an imaginary island,
Semmes describes a “Flyaway cape” a common atmospheric phenomenon often mistaken for land, giving rise to many reports of islands where there are none.
Verne mentions Crespo Island, one of many “phantom islands” that littered 19th century maps.
sail through both white water and water they describe as clear as air,
Sea water appearing milky white does happen, and sometimes it can have remarkable clarity, though “clear as air” is hyperbolic exaggeration.
Yes it does happen but a lot of common things seem to happen to Semmes and Nemo and this is one of them
both encounter the waters of the Amazon
Which you do when sailing up the coast of South America.
but prefer to steer clear of the waters of Brazil.
Semmes was not popular with the Brazilian authorities. Nemo just avoided populated areas on general principles.
No. Verne specifically names Brazil as being avoided more than any other place for Nemo. What other specific named places can you say that Nemo avoided?
Captain Nemo obviously disliked the neighbourhood of those populated coasts of Brazil for he moved with dizzying speed. Not even the quickest of fish or birds could keep up with us and observing the natural curiosities of these seas was no longer possible.
Whereas Semmes produced the original line.
Hence it behooves the prudent mariner, to give the banks that fringe the coasts of Brazil, a pretty wide berth.
Semmes was livid about the attack on the CSS Florida in Brazil too.
Both captains describe serpents climbing through holes on deck,
Semmes has encounters with actual sea snakes crawling up onto his ship when at anchor.
The Nautilus is attacked by giant squid.
and encounter schools of argonauts or nautilus,
As one does when sailing about in certain bits of ocean.
Agreed but given the 99 other connotations, the Alabama encountering Nautilus may have inspired this scene.
both captains have their own pleasure boat
Common equipment on ships.
and use it to collect curiosities and sea shells for their on board museum,
Yes but this bit isn't for the captain of a warship like Semmes and having an onboard natural history museum of curiosities.
As amateur naturalists are wont to do.
Not captain's of warships
It is the sequence of these three points which make it stand out as both Semmes and Nemo collect specimens for their respective museums of curiosities.
both encounter fake Havanna cigars,
Semmes is handed a fake wooden cigar as a joke.
Nemo makes cigars out of a nicotine containing seaweed.
This is not a coincidence but Semmes experience which is ultra obscure is creating Nemo's scene.
I will set you a challenge now, name one other 19th century sea captain (fictional or real) of a warship who used his dingy to collect sea shell on expeditions for their own mini museum. You will struggle because there are only two…Semmes and Nemo…not withstanding the fake Havana cigar.
kill a single albatross
As sailers or known to do. (Coleridge wrote a whole long poem about it.)
and use light traps to catch fish,
A common technique.
Agreed.
both are known for their impeccable manners and hospitality despite taking numerous prisoners onboard,
Semmes (not an unbiased source) self describes himself thus.
Nemo to fit the needs of the plot.
A plot inspired by Semmes…others complimented Semmes.
both seek sanctuary in the shelter of a volcanic island which is their de facto base where they take on coal,
Small islands in the middle of the ocean are mostly volcanic.
Yes there
are hundreds of volcanic islands and you cannot obtain coal from any of them –
it is geologically impossibility. Only sea captains obtain coal from volcanic islands – Nemo because
it is fiction and Semmes because it was the rendezvous ship with his coaling
boat.
The combination of volcanic island hideaway and obtaining coal from it is another sequential clue for Semmes Nemo far more important than their separate parts.
both captains are mentioned in two Jules Verne novels,
Wholly unremarkable.
I strongly disagree, if you say a real person (Semmes) inspired Jules Verne then the fact that Verne mentions ‘the famous captain Semmes’ (his words) in two novels is highly relevant. In total Verne mentions Lairds / Birkenhead / Semmes / the Alabama in eleven of his novels so Semmes is always on the radar.
smoke a daily cigar,
Neither have ready access to resupply, so they ration their vices
have large amounts of gold onboard which is obtained from sunken ships,
Semmes sunk the ships himself, after looting them.
Nemo mostly recovered gold from previous ship wrecks.
both captains have extremely strong views about British rule in India,
Semmes was all for it, while for Nemo it was the cause of his intense hatred for the British.
Again the anti-Semmes that you mention and the alter ego Semmes I subscribe to.
Semmes thought India should never be free of British Rule, so Verne made him Prince Dakkar, an Indian who fought to be free of British rule.
and an island rebellion, both state they enjoy food a Malay would cook,
Semmes had a Malaysian steward. Nemo describes a sea slug jam as something a Malaysian would describe as the best in the world.
Another coincidence? many captains had Malay stewards but this need to be seen in the context of he other points.
both captains lament the demise of sail to be replaced by steam
The common nostalgia for the good old days.
Yes but common to Semmes and Nemo.
and write at length about the loss of the ship Florida,
Semmes about his fellow commerce raider, the CSS Florida, captured and sunk by the Americans.
Verne about a fictitious British ship, apparently sunk in a storm in the Pacific Ocean.
A Confederate link made first by William Butcher, not me. Yhis is highly relevant given the long passages in each book.
both describe sailing in the Indian Ocean as tedious to anyone but the natural historian
Another double link paired with P and O to make a treble link.
Not much was happening there, but lots of interesting sea life.
and then encounter ships from the P and O Line.
The main shipping line in that part of the world.
Both captains undergo a physical and mental decline that ultimately is responsible for their ship being lost to the world,
A natural hazard of their professions.
both captains have their final battle in the English Channel with a wooden ship protected by armour above the waterline,
If you were armouring a ship, that’s where you put it.
You need to research the Kearsarge and the historical cusp of armouring ships above the waterline in the 1860's to see the real relevance. The Kearsarge had anchor chains under wooden boards.
both captains circle around the enemy ship and are compared to animals and prey,
A common tactic and metaphor.
both captains lose their ship down a whirlpool
The Alabama is left as leaving a whirlpool behind after she sand (as ships often do, and the description may be an exaggeration.) The Nautilus sails into the Maelstrom at Lofoten, a known navigational hazard off the coast of Norway.
will change this to disappear leaving behind a whirlpool or similar.
on June 19th or within one hour of this date,
The Nautilus was lost on the 22nd.
How do you work this out as it does not give the specific datein my Butcher translation?
both captains write their onboard manuscript which then disappears into the sea,
Captains do that, and its a risk.
Yes but Semmes and Nemo do it and it falls into the sea.
Semmes “wife” was his ship, and his crew were his “family”
Nemo’s wife and family were killed by the British during the Sepoy Revolt.
Semmes uses the metaphor and Verne translates it back literally for 20,000 Leagues …so giving us the back story…brilliant...but not if you don't agree witht he Semmes Nemo link...and so an insight into how Verne worked is lost.
both start weeping and dismiss their crew politely so they can grieve in private,
Part of the whole proper behaviour as a ship’s captain thing.
Not really and the fact that is recorded in fiction for Nemo and in historical record for Semmes is much rarer.
both hold an elaborate funeral
Got to give your dead crew mates a proper send-off.
and release a book of their experiences in March 1869,
Amazing how Verne managed to get an advanced copy of Semmes memoirs translated into French and delivered to him across an ocean in time for him to incorporate all those details into his own book
Yes but the statement is true though isn't it?
As stated, Semmes disappeared in Paris for two weeks in Sept 1864 with Francis Tremlett the supposed guardian of his memoirs (Fox 2007). Semmes was then left alone in Paris for at least a week. Semmes could speak fluent French…so not so amazing. The ‘bare bones’ French edition of Semmes’s memoirs came out in 1864 but only contains about half the 100 links…enough for Verne to start on though.
I have no doubt they colluded but with a necessary Unionist counterbalance involvement.
both captains and their vessels are compared by Jules Verne in a letter to Hetzel.
In that Verne says that any comparison to the Alabama is unacceptable and inexplicable.
…what about the ‘False Alabama’ he refers to though and the fact that Nemo according to Verne could have foregone his maritime existence and joined Grant’s army when in reality Semmes did forego his maritime existence and join Lee’s army. This is a literary decoy by Verne and you have been deceived.
If anything, based on what you wrote, if Verne was using Semmes as any sort of model, Nemo is meant to be the anti-Semmes.
Agreed
Thanks for taking the time to look at my links.
Best John
Alex Kirstukas
- I can think of a few possible objections to my argument (Why are the timings so hard to line up? Why didn't Verne ever mention this to anybody who might have left a paper trail about it - friends, relatives, interviewers, anyone at all? Why would Verne go to so much trouble to make the matching-up work, and then keep it all a secret? Why doesn't even a trace of it appear anywhere in the manuscripts, notes, etc?), but since you've consistently addressed exactly the same objections simply by circular recourse back to your 100 points, I feel empowered to do the same.
- If any one of my 100 links is regarded as tenuous or commonplace, I can always fall back on saying that it should be seen in the context of all 99 of the other links: how could all 100 links together possibly be a coincidence? In addition, since Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea is twice as long as Around the World in Eighty Days, I can even argue that my argument is twice as strong: 100 similarities found in half as much data!
- I haven't yet been able to ask Grok to support my results, because I haven't yet published those results all over the internet over a period of years. Once that's done, though, I can be completely confident Grok will agree with me. After all, that's exactly what LLMs like it are engineered to do: take a leading question, predict how the person wants it answered, and then use up a lot of energy and water adapting existing available text to fit.
- I realise that, to match your argument, I also need to find a counterargument I can set up as a strawman opponent. Luckily, I find that in his Oxford edition of Around the World in Eighty Days, Bill Butcher suggests that in creating Fix, Verne may have been influenced by the word "fix" (as in idées fixes, "fixing" Fogg and time, etc). Ok with you, Bill, if I claim this is a piece of received wisdom upheld by a sinister cabal of intelligentsia, equate it one-to-one with my own argument, and then discount it by showing that it matches Fix in only 1 way against my 100?
- Finally, I also know that to match your line of argument, I also need to prove Verne hid a clue in a prominent anagram, preferably a name. I'm glad to report I've found it! In Chapter 25, Fix mentions two supposedly American names that are obviously made up and therefore suspect: "Kamerfield" and "Mandiboy". Sure enough, it turns out KAMERFIELD MANDIBOY is Verne's anagram for a phrase that names you directly, and gives you credit for your writing-based notion: LAMB FORMED INKY IDEA.
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John Lamb
William Butcher
Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2025 4:28 AM
To: jules-ve...@googlegroups.com <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [JVF] Part II The dangers of monoglot eccentric one-track theories accompanied by ad hominem remarks and non sequiturs
William Butcher
Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2025 12:16 AM
To: Jules Verne Forum <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [JVF] Part II The dangers of monoglot eccentric one-track theories accompanied by ad hominem remarks and non sequiturs
William Butcher
William Butcher
Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2025 8:13 AM
William Butcher
Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2025 8:13 AM
To: Jules Verne Forum <jules-ve...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: paraanoia or misunderstood genius?
William Butcher
Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2025 8:15 AM
John Lamb
Jean-Louis Trudel
I've been otherwise occupied, but reading through the back and forth
about the 100 "links" (that still seem to include Cherbourg!), I was
stopped by the claim that Nemo and Semmes both "use [a dinghy or
pinnace] to collect curiosities and sea shells for their on board
museum,
_ Yes but this bit isn't for the captain of a warship like Semmes and
having an onboard natural history museum of curiosities. _
As amateur naturalists are wont to do.
Not captain's of warships
It is the sequence of these three points which make it stand out as
both Semmes and Nemo collect specimens for their respective museums of
curiosities."
He's engaged in a private war, but the Nautilus does not fly any
country's flag. Therefore, the comparison between Semmes and Nemo
fails.
I'll note here that captains of warships did a lot of collecting of
natural specimens for museums in the 18th and 19th centuries. James
Cook and Louis-Antoine de Bougainville commanded warships as British
and French navy officers respectively, circled the world (not unlike
Nemo...), ferried naturalists like Nemo did with Aronnax (such as
Banks for Cook and Commerson for Bougainville), and brought back
multiple specimens, including of new species such as the bougainvillea
flower named after Bougainville. The 1836-1842 Wilkes expedition
involved two sloops of war and at least 3 U.S. navy ships (which may
or may not qualify as warships), and multiple officers commanding
those ships as they went around the world and collected multiple
specimens. Were the captains (Cook, Bougainville, Wilkes) involved in
collecting specimens personally? Perhaps not, though Cook probably
performed personally much of the "scientific" hydrographic and
cartographic work he was expected to carry out. So, there are
examples of warship captains engaging in hands-on science.
Semmes memoirs on-line include this passage about what he was doing
with his little boat:
"My gig was a fine boat, fitted with a lug sail, and I used frequently
to stretch off long distances from the land in her, enjoying her fine
sailing qualities, in the fresh sea-breeze that would be blowing, the
greater part of the day. At other times I would coast the island along
for miles, now putting into one little cove, and now into another,
sometimes fishing, and at others hunting sea-shells, and exploring the
wonders of the coral banks. Pelican, gulls, plover, and sand-snipe
were abundant, and my boat’s crew, when we would land, and haul our
boat up for a stroll, would sometimes make capital shots. Indeed, we
generally returned on board laden with fish, game, and marine
curiosities, of various kinds,—prominent among which would be
specimens of the little coral insect, and its curious manufactures.
Miniature limestone-trees, with their pointed branches, shrubs, fans,
and a hundred other imitations of the flora of the upper world would
be fished up from beneath the sparkling waters, live their day of
wonder, and when they had faded and lost their beauty, be thrown
overboard again."
It sounds like Semmes was either eating many of his collected
'specimens' or throwing them away. That doesn't resemble Nemo's more
systematic and hands-on collecting. It sounds more like the kind of
collecting a kid or a rank amateur would do. Seashells? Nor do I
find any mention in the online version of Semmes' _Memoirs of Service
Afloat, During the War Between the States_ of a museum or cabinet of
curiosities. (Perhaps he kept some seashells in a box or trunk...)
So, if he had an onboard museum, how would Verne have learned about
it? Through a speculative and unproven encounter with Semmes?
In short, it was quite common for captains of warships to oversee the
gathering of specimens, sometimes important and novel. It seems
telling that Nemo may have been more hands-on and systematic about his
collecting, diverging from Semmes just as he also differed from Semmes
in not commanding a warship. But the association between
long-distance navigation and natural history (as in the case of
Darwin's Beagle, which was also a Navy ship) was so common that Nemo's
scientific interests are only slightly more pronounced and don't
require the iffy example of whatever Semmes was doing.
Looking at this from a writer's point of view, it would seem natural
that Verne, in the course of imagining a round-the-world trip that
would be distinctive because it would use a submarine, would want to
add a pedagogical component. (And let's keep in mind that this was
most likely his overarching objective in writing the book, as part of
his deal with Hetzel.) Having Aronnax on board would supply the
straight science. But why would Nemo want a naturalist onboard? The
easiest and most reasonable explanation would come from setting up
Nemo as a man of culture and science. So, on the whole, it seems far
more likely that Nemo was collecting specimens to satisfy narrative
logic than to ape Semmes.
In short, if we assume that Verne was using Semmes as a template, we
could conclude that Nemo's collecting was linked to Semmes, but that
is what you are trying to prove. So, it cannot be used as proof.
Jean-Louis Trudel
Le sam. 1 nov. 2025, à 20 h 10, William Butcher
<wbutch...@gmail.com> a écrit :
John Lamb
Dear Jean-louis,
Thankyou for your contribution. I will deal with your points one at a time if I may. I will change Cherbourg to the English Channel as it in no way diminishes the common final battle location of both the CSS Alabama and the Nautilus. A fact first pointed out by William Butcher I believe as early as 1998 (so he’s to blame!).
Going back to Cherbourg / English Channel. Remember these are two vessels who sail right across the world’s oceans but both end up having their final battle in the same tiny little English Channel with the extreme rarity of a wooden ship with armour only above the water line - such an arrangement must have only been around for just about five years or so before ships went straight from wood to total ironclads. The Kearsarge of course which sunk the CSS Alabama had improvised anchor chain protection under wooden boards. This is another sequential (combination) link / ‘coincidence’ if you like.
Anyway, both Semmes and Nemo are forceful captains who sink ships, I think we can agree on that and that is the simple stem of the whole Nemo / Semmes debate from which the 100 links come, of which you are challenging between three and four - fair enough.
As a contrast, Gustave Flourens, of course, was not even the captain of a vessel who sinks ships, but by any chance have you told William Butcher that is where his comparison with Nemo fails? Someone needs to tell him.
You say that ‘while Semmes was seen as the captain of a warship, Nemo isn't’. As far as I can see, do not mention Semmes as captain of a warship in any of my 100 links. Strictly speaking Semmes was not a captain of a warship and that is why the CSS Alabama is more commonly termed a ‘commerce raider’. I used the term warship as it is simpler to use in an informal conversation on a chat forum, but it is not in my list of 100 links.
The reality is that the last thing Semmes wanted to do was engage in battle with another ship with his multinational crew of misfits gleaned from the mean streets of Liverpool. He did defeat the USS Hatteras in 1863 (as in the name The Adventures of Captain Hatteras (1864)) but preferred to sneak up on ships and sink them (sound familiar?).
To some extent if you read Semmes’s memoirs, he is engaged in a private war (his memoirs are commonly seen by Civil War scholars as one of the bitterest defences of the lost cause) and he did not have to fight the Kearsarge off Cherbourg, as he could have done what he did in Gibraltar, he had simply walked away from the Sumter when similarly blockaded in port.
You say that ‘the Nautilus does not fly any country's flag’ – neither does Semmes, he flies the British, French and any other country’s flag before rising the Confederate flag (a country that does not and never existed) and so the comparison is perhaps quite profound in a literary sense.
You say ‘therefore, the comparison between Semmes and Nemo fails’. How does it fail particularly when out of my 100 links I never even mentioned flags or warships for that matter. I ask you again, what about Flourens he hasn’t even got his feet wet yet!
You say
I'll note here that captains of warships did a lot of collecting of natural specimens for museums in the 18th and 19th centuries.
Fair enough, and I think when I asked for other examples it was an attempt to get people to pigeonhole Semmes and root out the relative commonality / rarity of captains of warships collecting marine specimens, it is pretty rare on a world historical scale, but I believe Gustave Flourens did have a magnificent collection.
I particularly enjoyed your snippet of Semmes’s memoirs as it really gives a feel for his frequent excursions in his boat (like Nemo) around the world’s oceans (like Nemo) collecting sea shells (like Nemo) and exploring the wonders of coral and coming back laden with ‘marine curiosities of all kinds (like Nemo) and his love of nature…
You say,
It sounds like Semmes was either eating many of his collected 'specimens' or throwing them away. That doesn't resemble Nemo's more systematic and hands-on collecting.
Given the narrative in the book and the detail in how the sea fulfils all of Nemo’s food needs (he had to feed his crew too remember), the lack of space on the Nautilus and the illustrations of Nemo’s saloon, I am sure that Nemo too was eating many of his collected 'specimens' or throwing them away as he improved his collection– certainly the dinner with Aronnax would suggest so.
It sounds more like the kind of collecting a kid or a rank amateur would do.
I think Semmes’s knowledge of the sea and the marine environment is more than a rank amateur, amateur yes, rank amateur no, here is a link to his friend, mentor and hero, Matthew Fontaine Maury – the Father of Modern Oceanography – the body language in the photo says it all. Is not Nemo in the same echelon of ‘amateur’ only richer and with more space?
NH 57983 Commander Matthew F. Maury, CSN Captain Raphael Semmes, CSN
Seashells? Nor do I find any
mention in the online version of Semmes' _Memoirs of Service Afloat, During the
War Between the States_ of a museum or cabinet of
curiosities.
You say seashells? (?) I take it you are referring to
At other times I would coast the island along for miles, now putting into one little cove, and now into another, sometimes fishing, and at others hunting sea-shells, and exploring the wonders of the coral banks…(p518). Raphael Semmes Memoirs (1869)
and
You are examining my shells, sir. They may indeed interest a scientist; but for me they have an additional charm, as I collected them all myself. There is not a sea on the surface of the globe that I have not searched.
Captain Nemo 20,000 Leagues Under the Seas by Jules Verne (1869)
and
…I put it away carefully among my curiosities, but after a few days it shrivelled, and lost its beauty. (p703).
Raphael Semmes Memoirs (1869)
You say
(Perhaps he kept some seashells in a box or trunk...)
the fact that Semmes puts things carefully away amongst his curiosities suggests a slightly more formal arrangement.
You say,
So, if he had an onboard museum, how would Verne have learned about it? Through
a speculative and unproven encounter with Semmes?
I have mentioned several times that Semmes disappeared in Paris for several days in September 1864 with the custodian of his memoirs Francis Tremlett – that should answer your question as best I can. It is far better for Semmes to be in Paris with he custodian of his memoirs Francis Tremlett than, to hot tail it straight back to the States from the Alabama to join General Lee’s army. Verne of course stated that Nemo could hot tail it back to the States from the Alabama to join General Grant’s army. The genius of Jules Verne.
You say,
In short, it was quite common for captains of warships to oversee the gathering
of specimens, sometimes important and novel.
Yes, if you caste your net over three hundred years, 120 countries and five oceans, no if you interviewed your average 100 captains of warships.
It seems telling that Nemo may have been more hands-on and systematic
about his
collecting, diverging from Semmes just as he also differed from Semmes in not
commanding a warship.
It is not telling at all, tell that to Gustave Flourens.
But the association between long-distance navigation and natural history (as in the case of Darwin's Beagle, which was also a Navy ship) was so common that Nemo's scientific interests are only slightly more pronounced and don't require the iffy example of whatever Semmes was doing.
I do not
believe this is a good summation in
comparing like for like comparisons between two gifted writers with a love for
the natural world.
Looking at this from a writer's point of view, it would seem natural that Verne, in the course of imagining a round-the-world trip that would be distinctive because it would use a submarine, would want to add a pedagogical component. (And let's keep in mind that this was most likely his overarching objective in writing the book, as part of his deal with Hetzel.) Having Aronnax on board would supply the straight science.
Not too natural, Hatteras leaving Birkenhead for the poles in 1864 is a case in point. More likely Semmes pointed him that way in the same way that Arne Saknussemm pointed Verne to the Journey to the Centre of the Earth.
But why would Nemo want a naturalist onboard? The easiest and most reasonable explanation would come from setting up Nemo as a man of culture and science. So, on the whole, it seems far more likely that Nemo was collecting specimens to satisfy narrative logic than to ape Semmes.
Yes, but
the overriding evidence is that he is aping Semmes if you wish to put it that
way.
In short, if we assume that Verne was using Semmes as a template, we could
conclude that Nemo's collecting was linked to Semmes, but that is what you are
trying to prove. So, it cannot be used as proof.
Not sure I understand this conclusion.
Anyway, in the interest of balance I look forward to your similar deep analysis of William Butcher’s theory that Nemo is Gustave Flourens and putting him under similar scrutiny. Somehow, I do not think the conversation will be as long.
In all honesty, Jean- Louis I thank you for taking the time in questioning me yet again, as I have always said I need to be grilled on this, and you have certainly done that. Forgive me for my snippets of what is known as ‘Scouse humour’ It takes a long time for you to put these questions to me and a long time to answer them, but I have enjoyed it tremendously.
Thanks again.
Best John
Don Sample
On Nov 2, 2025, at 12:39 PM, John Lamb <cads...@gmail.com> wrote:
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