another Jacktrip 1.4 installation note -- the doc's page says use APT -- but APT installs Jacktrip 1.1 not 1.4 on my Debian boxes

[Mike O'Connor]

hi all,

the subject says it all.  here's a short video to show what i mean.  'seems like either the apt repository should be updated (preferred!) or the docs-page ought to change to some other way for non-developer users to install Jacktrip 1.4

https://haven2.com/video/jacktrip1.4_apt-install_loads_1.1.mov

mike

[Marcin Pączkowski]

IIUC updating the repository package is done by package managers for the given Linux distribution, not by the JT team. For point release distributions that typically means that new versions of a package is only available with the new version of the OS. (Please correct me if I'm wrong)

I agree that the documentation should be clearer on that point.

Marcin

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[Mike O'Connor]

hi Marcin,

i've never done linux package distribution, so i just took a tour through search and found this pretty good starting point on Stack Exchange.

https://askubuntu.com/questions/16446/how-to-get-my-software-into-ubuntu

i think what's missing is somebody on the Jacktrip-developer side taking responsibility for monitoring and maintaining the package-update process.  it appears somebody did this for JT 1.1, but nobody has since then.  

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[Fernando Lopez-Lezcano]

On 11/6/21 11:36 PM, Marcin Pączkowski wrote:
> IIUC updating the repository package is done by package managers for the
> given Linux distribution, not by the JT team. For point release
> distributions that typically means that new versions of a package is
> only available with the new version of the OS. (Please correct me if I'm
> wrong)

How often upgrades happen in Linux distributions depends on the
packager. Upgrades are not generally tied to new versions of the
underlying OS and can happen at any time. If the packager is proactive
it might happen very quickly. I think it is good practice to ping the
package maintainer to make sure he/she is aware of the new version...

-- Fernando

> I agree that the documentation should be clearer on that point.
> Marcin
>
> On Sat, Nov 6, 2021 at 3:50 PM Mike O'Connor <oconn...@gmail.com
> <mailto:oconn...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> hi all,
>
> the subject says it all.  here's a short video to show what i mean.
>  'seems like either the apt repository should be updated
> (preferred!) or the docs-page ought to change to some other way for
> non-developer users to install Jacktrip 1.4
>
> https://haven2.com/video/jacktrip1.4_apt-install_loads_1.1.mov
> <https://haven2.com/video/jacktrip1.4_apt-install_loads_1.1.mov>
>
> mike
>
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[Mike O'Connor]

does anybody know who the package-maintainer for Jacktrip is? i'm wondering if that's why it hasn't been updated since v1.1. maybe there isn't one any more. a lot of us oldsters have a tendency to quietly disappear... ;-)

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[Fernando Lopez-Lezcano]

On 11/8/21 11:45 AM, Mike O'Connor wrote:
> does anybody know who the package-maintainer for Jacktrip is? i'm wondering if that's why it hasn't been updated since v1.1. maybe there isn't one any more. a lot of us oldsters have a tendency to quietly disappear... ;-)

Well, on which distro? Each one has its own group of packagers... (there
might be overlap, of course)

Debian (a quick search did not find anything Ubuntu specific) appears to
be pretty much up to date (1.3.*) , and the existence of 1.4.0 is
flagged as a "high priority" action needed item, see here:

https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/jacktrip

IOhannes seems to be the maintainer...

In the case of Fedora the latest builds are for 1.3.* (looks like Iñaki
Úcar is the maintainer):
https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/packageinfo?packageID=32529

-- Fernando

[Mike O'Connor]

that's odd... i shot that little movie on Debian. i wonder why it's loading JT 1.1 if Debian thinks 1.3 is current?

[Marcin Pączkowski]

How often upgrades happen in Linux distributions depends on the
packager. Upgrades are not generally tied to new versions of the
underlying OS and can happen at any time. If the packager is proactive
it might happen very quickly.

I have inquired about that for Ubuntu when we recently released a new version of SuperCollider. Here's the relevant part of the answer:

> An upgrade of the existing supercollider package in Ubuntu 20.04 LTS is not planned, and may be done only in specific circumstances, see faq 3037

So at least for Ubuntu it does seem that the packagers are not upgrading individual packages between OS releases.

I agree that it would be good to ping Debian maintainers nonetheless.

Marcin

[Mike O'Connor]

i built a fresh Debian 10 install -- no Jacktrip, no nothing.  i started driving around in apt to see what i could see.  first thing i went to look at is the "apt edit-sources" command to see where my version of Debian is pulling it's repositories from.  perhaps i'm getting them from an odd place.  here's the list -- it looks pretty standard to me.

that lines up with what i chose when i built Debian -- this is the default that the installer handed me.

then i ran the apt update again, just for good measure, and did a search for Jacktrip -- which shows version 1.1 as the only choice

then i ran the install...

it's installed 1.1

[Marcin Pączkowski]

I forgot to send the link to the full conversation:

https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/supercollider/+question/698260

[Mike O'Connor]

oooOOohhh...  the Jacktrip page of Debian's package-manager is fascinating.  all kinds of interesting things.  here's the link:

https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/jacktrip

there's a hierarchy of versions that range from really old to bleeding edge.  Jacktrip 1.1 is in the older versions.  Jacktrip 1.3 is in the newer ones

• o-o-stable: 1.1~repack-5
• oldstable: 1.1~repack-5
• stable: 1.3.0+ds0-1
• testing: 1.3.0+ds0-1
• unstable: 1.3.0+ds0-1

Debian releases look like this:

Debian 10 includes "oldstable" versions of packages (Jacktrip 1.1 for us) 

Debian 11 includes all the "stable" versions of packages (Jacktrip 1.3) 

Jacktrip 1.4 is listed as a new upstream version in the "action needed" area.  it has indeed been submitted to the system.

which reenforces our themes:

- somebody needs to take ownership of nudging Jacktrip through this process 

- the documentation needs to be revised to point people at a better place/method to load Jacktrip 1.4 on a Linux machine

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[Roman Haefeli]

On Mon, 2021-11-08 at 10:44 -0800, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano wrote:
> On 11/6/21 11:36 PM, Marcin Pączkowski wrote:
> > IIUC updating the repository package is done by package managers
> > for the
> > given Linux distribution, not by the JT team. For point release
> > distributions that typically means that new versions of a package
> > is
> > only available with the new version of the OS. (Please correct me
> > if I'm
> > wrong)
>
> How often upgrades happen in Linux distributions depends on the
> packager. Upgrades are not generally tied to new versions of the
> underlying OS and can happen at any time. If the packager is
> proactive
> it might happen very quickly.

That broad generalization certainly does not apply to Debian (and thus
also not to Ubuntu). Debian is released every two years and software
versions stay the same for a given release. Exceptions are made to
security fixes and and packages that outdate quickly like packages
containing timezone data. That's what 'bullseye-security' and
'bullseye-updates' repositories are for as opposed to the regular
'bullseye' repository which is not changed after a release. (bullseye
being here the name of the latest Debian release).

There is an additional backports (e.g. 'bullseye-backports') repository
that provides new version of software packages built against the the
release.

Ubuntu works similarly, but let's third parties to host their so-called
personal package archives (PPA) where software developers can provide
their software pre-packaged for specific Ubuntu versions.

> I think it is good practice to ping the
> package maintainer to make sure he/she is aware of the new version...

Yeah, for Debian this makes sense. Once the maintainer published an up-
to-date version in the backports repository, the instructions for
installing jacktrip can be updated to include the steps to enable
backports repository and install jacktrip (e.g 1.4) from there.

Currently, it appears that Debian 10 (Buster) ships only with jacktrip
1.1 and Debian 11 (Bullseye) with jacktrip 1.3. There is no jacktrip
package in *-backports yet.

See:
https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=jacktrip&searchon=names&suite=all&section=all

For Ubuntu:
Anyone can setup a PPA and publish new packages of JackTrip there:
https://help.ubuntu.com/stable/ubuntu-help/addremove-ppa.html.en


Roman

[Roman Haefeli]

On Mon, 2021-11-08 at 14:43 -0600, Mike O'Connor wrote:
> that's odd... i shot that little movie on Debian. i wonder why it's
> loading JT 1.1

sounds like Debian 10 (Buster) released in 2019.

> if Debian thinks 1.3 is current.

jacktrip 1.3 is only found in Debian 11 (Bullseye) released in 2021.

Roman

[IOhannes m zmölnig]

i don't really follow this mailinglist closely, so i only catched up on
this thread now...

On 11/18/21 10:10, Roman Haefeli wrote:
>
>> I think it is good practice to ping the
>> package maintainer to make sure he/she is aware of the new version...
>
> Yeah, for Debian this makes sense.

as the maintainer, i can say it doesn't really make sense (for me).

i typically monitor upstream releases via some automated means, and
adding active pings only adds noise.

i do my best to keep packages up-to-date and i think i'm doing a rather
good job here, and in general updated packages appear within a month or so.
of course, for you a delay of anything more than 3 days might be
inacceptable.

for the Debian jacktrip package specifically, the upload dates are:


|version| released | Debian |
|-------|------------|------------|
| 1.4.0 | 2021-11-03 | never! |
| 1.4.1 | 2021-11-11 | 2021-11-25 |
| 1.4.2 | 2021-12-06 | 2021-12-07 |
| 1.4.3 | 2021-12-19 | 2021-12-22 |

now while i uploaded 1.4.1 to Debian on 2021-11-25, it did not
immediately appear in the archives, simply because this was the first
version in Debian that has both a GUI and a non-GUI flavour, resulting
in two binary packages, in which case there is a bit of Debian
bureaucracy involved (that includes a full review of the package).

> Currently, it appears that Debian 10 (Buster) ships only with jacktrip
> 1.1 and Debian 11 (Bullseye) with jacktrip 1.3. There is no jacktrip
> package in *-backports yet.

and there haven't been any plans for providing backports packages so far
- nobody ever requested them.

> the Jacktrip page of Debian's package-manager is fascinating. all
> kinds of interesting things.

of course, reading this entire thread is a bit of a sobering experience.

thanks for all the hard work.


fds
IOhannes

[Mike O'Connor]

hi IOhannes

thanks for all *your* hard work. :-)

and also thanks for bumping all those new releases of Jacktrip through the process.

i had not seen notifications of version 1.4.2 or 1.4.3 on this list before your note. hey Jacktrip-developers -- it would be good to post a notification here at the same time that you let IOhannes know about the latest in the new continuous-update process.

IOhannes, in your experience how long does a release take to get through testing and moved into the Stable status? is there anything that we users can do to help with that?

thanks again,

mike

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[IOhannes m zmölnig]

On 12/26/21 15:55, Mike O'Connor wrote:
> how long does a release take to get through testing

any Debian package automatically migrates from Debian/unstable to
Debian/testing after 5 days...unless something blocks this migration.
blockers include:
- a severe bug in the Debian bug database that affects the new version
- a regression of possibility to build the package on one of Debian's
release architectures
- a regression in the package's testsuite
- a dependency on version of another package that has not yet entered
Debian/testing

this automigration period can be reduced to 3 days, if the package
provides some non-trivial tests and all these tests succeed in a
sandboxed CI environment (though with audio- and network- applications,
such tests are typically non-trivial to implement correctly; so i
wouldn't push for that in the case of jacktrip)

> and moved into the Stable status?

all packages that are in Debian/testing will automatically migrate to
Debian/stable whenever a new Debian release is made. (which is about
every two years; with no fixed release schedule).

this is the *only* time a package may enter Debian/stable.
which is the reason why you will never see a version of a package in
Debian/stable that was released after the given Debian/stable.

as an additional hurdle, Debian/testing enters a several-month long
"freeze" state before it becomes stable.
no new versions of packages may enter Debian/testing in this time (this
period is used to fix any "release critical" bugs in the Debian
distribution).

> is there anything that we users can do to help with that?

no.

this is how Debian works (and how many distributions with stable
releases work in general).

mgfdsf
IOhannes

(and then there's also "stable-backports"...)