J/42 Fwd head o/b discharge

[rabj...@gmail.com]

Any one out there have any experience changing
out the direct overboard discharge hose on the forward
head. This is the hose that runs from
The MSD to a Y valve on the vanity then
To a thru Hull and overboard?

Alex
RAVEN
J/42 #73

[William Stellin]

It is so difficult, I’ll sell the boat before I do it. I had the line all limed up but I was able to break most of it loose without removing the hose. If you can remove the elbows, squeezing the hose with big pliers will break up the scale. The elbows can be cleaned but it is easier to just replace them. The scale will be worst wherever there is standing effluent and at the plastic elbows. Good luck!
Bill. #6

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[rabj...@gmail.com]

Bill, Thanks for the candid response. A Marine
Mechanic friend of mine told me I need to
cut out the molded in vanity in order to do this work. Yikes! I was hopeful for a silver bullet.
I guess no luck. Alex

[Edward Sitver]

Alex,

What about adding an access port on the front, vertical part of the molded “step” on which the toilet is fastened? You might be able to get just enough access to manage the attachment point.

Ed
------------------------------------
Ed Sitver
esi...@gmail.com
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Mobile: +1 303-570-5071
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[William Stellin]

I didn’t cut any out of the vanity.
If the hose is just plugged you can free it up as I described. It’s almost impossible for the hose to wear out or break down, especially with a boat as young as yours is. Scale is not bad in the above the water line sections of the hose. It is the area near the through hull that is worse.

Bill. #6

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[Barry Dwyer]

My configuration is a bit different as we have a macerater pump for offshore discharge, but I just replaced all the hoses. 

Basically, I took the storage locker behind the head apart and went at it from above. Still a huge PIA, but we didn’t have to sell the boat. 

Barry

On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 6:16 PM William Stellin <wste...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I didn’t cut any out of the vanity.
If the hose is just plugged you can free it up as I described. It’s almost impossible for the hose to wear out or break down, especially with a boat as young as yours is. Scale is not bad in the above the water line sections of the hose. It is the area near the through hull that is worse.
Bill. #6

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 6, 2019, at 5:54 PM, Edward Sitver <esi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Alex,
>
> What about adding an access port on the front, vertical part of the molded “step” on which the toilet is fastened? You might be able to get just enough access to manage the attachment point.
>
> Ed
> ------------------------------------
> Ed Sitver
> esi...@gmail.com
> WhatsApp:  +1 303-570-5071
> Mobile: +1 303-570-5071
> ------------------------------------
>
>
>
>> On Apr 6, 2019, at 5:51 PM, rabj...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Bill, Thanks for the candid response. A Marine
>> Mechanic friend of mine told me I need to
>> cut out the molded in vanity in order to do this work. Yikes! I was hopeful for a silver bullet.
>> I guess no luck. Alex
>>
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[noah peffer]

I had the pleasure of doing it when we first purchased our boat. It was a full hazmat scene with plastic everywhere and I wore what was basically a space suit. I do not have any good tips. It was disgusting, but I just cut the whole damn thing out and then cleaned for about 6 months.

Noah Peffer

Thylacine 

Hull 29

[rers...@netscape.net]

You can access the overboard seacock and thru-hull for the forward head by removing the aft section of the portside V berth platform beneath the mattress.  Pretty easy access.  To get further access to the hoses further aft you must remove the cabinet above and behind the sink vanity.  You shouldn't have to cut any fiberglass.  The sanitation hoses are impossible to remove from barbs unless well heated with a heat gun to soften them up.  It's yucky and uncomfortable but doable.  Certainly no worse than replacing the 2" portside cockpit scupper hose, which I just completed, and is equally torturous.

Good Luck,

Reed  s/v Cayenne  #65

[York.richardw]

The head hoses build up calcium and eventually the useful diameter is so small they clog.  Having worked in them twice, here are some things I learned.  BTW, this is not rocket science; any one of us can do it, but it not the most pleasant task......

1.  Heat from a hair dryer, or heat gun is needed to be able to pull off the old hose.  Patience is important here, but once warm enough, hoses can twist off relatively easily. Gas pliers (“channel lock”) her helpful getting around the 1,5 inch hose.

2. Similarly, heat makes putting on new hose much easier. Use a heat gun (with care!) or a hair dryer. Instead of a heat gun, you may try dipping it into boiling water for a bit, as my mechanic does.  But you may still need a gun for tight runs.  Avoid Fire!!!!

3.  New hose is easier to install.  But if you are someplace distant (Outer Croatia for my first foray), you can beat the old hose on a dock to get the calcium deposits out, then reinstall.

4.  Install only the highest quality hose!!  Anything less than the best will start smelling quickly.

5.  Yes, it can be a messy business.  Pump what you can out of the piping, then pump air through all hoses - 30 or 40 pumps,  

Also put down as many rags, towels, etc, as you can to keep drips out of the bulge pans (where you cannot reach).  Be prepared to hose down everything after you are done, multiple times, to get any residual hose contents overboard.  

Then go for s vigorous sail, heeling the boat on both tacks, to promote more draining.  And, yes, you may have to rinse again in a week or so.

6.  Good rubber gloves are important, as well as a good shower afterward.

7. You may have to contort yourself inside a sink cabinet to remove and replace hoses.

Best of Luck!!

... Dick

Sent from my iPhone with tiny keys

[Bernie Coyne]

Yes some time ago I too changed all the fwd head hoses on J/42 hull #3. It was a difficult job getting the hoses unattached and new ones attached. In the end I removed the Y-valve, attached all the hoses to the Y-valve while it was removed and then reinstalled the Y-valve. Still a tough job due to the semi-rigid sanitation hose. Today I would use a flexible hose like this type from Raritan: https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?id=3057989

Bernie Coyne
Email: bernie...@verizon.net
Cell/text: 781-789-0762

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[Thomas Keffer]

The July/August 2017 issue of Good Old Boat had a review of sanitation hoses. Here are my notes from the article for that inevitable day when I'll have to do this job.

• Trident 101/102. The 101 is black, 102 white. 101 is stiffer and has a rough surface that can be difficult to clean.
• Rartan Sani/Flex Odor Shield. Slim profile, flexible. But, the flexibility means it can kink. Use PVC elbow if necessary. Easy to slide onto sanitation barbs. “Pleasure to work with.”
• Shields Poly-X. Most expensive, and perhaps the best. Lifetime anti-permeation warranty. Medium stiffness. Installs easily; slick surface is easy to clean.

Tips for installing:

• Warm the area. Use a space heater.
• Use a lubricant, but not a petroleum based one! Glycerin based is best (such as K-Y jelly).
• Rubber faced gloves help with grip. A hose hook helps on removal.
• Dunk ends in near-boiling water to soften hoses.
• Never heat a hose for purposes of making it bend. It will kink. Use a 90-degree elbow. 

[rabj...@gmail.com]

Thanks much to all for the helpful input.
Need to mull over some of the take aways
and decide just how badly I want to proceed.
Especially since there are some interim and
less onerous opportunities. Again, thanks,
Alex
#73

[Anthony M Iacono]

Alex
Thank you for asking the question. It was interesting and Fun to read all of the helpful responses to your query. We have a great group.

I will add one more thought. After chasing an odor for a few seasons in 2017 replaced all my forward hoses in a two days using a company called Head Sync. I realize now I missed out on a lot of fun and a few good stories by not doing it myself, but I’m ok with that! :) Ti

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[William Stellin]

One tip probably everyone already knows about is “ never flush toilet paper down the the toilet”. Human waste will make it through an almost plugged hose or fitting. Toilet paper won’t make it through......even the stuff made especially for MSD’s.
Bill. #6

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[David Shapiro]

Alex,

I did the job last summer with professional help on all the hoses on "Sandpiper" (Hull#32). The vanity stayed in place. All the trim of the cabinet, the head door, the cabinet doors and shelving, the berth floor, drawers and some trim forward removed. The Y-valve unbolted, A good time to rebuild it and install proper duck-bill valves. All the forward head hoses were almost completely clogged with salt build-up, the aft head hoses were clear, except for the last foot. It was a very physically strenuous job. We installed a new vent with a 45 degree fitting to avoid kinking the hose and a new loop. Taking turns to saw sections of old hose, grabbing each others ankles to haul each other while tugging on stiff hoses to pop them off nipples was part of the process. We installed the highest quality saniflex smooth bore discharge hoses, somewhere around 40 feet. They were not that flexible either.

I was told that the best way to get any life out of the system was to rinse the hoses by flushing with fresh water when storing the boat between trips (periodic fresh water flush) This still includes periodic "salad dressing" vinegar flush for urine salt build-up and a non-decomposing lubricant for all the toilet valving and system hardware. Took about 4 days.

Lots of fun,

DAS

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[Ed S]

David,

By berth floor, I’m assuming you mean the teak floor in the V-berth came up. If that is the case, do you remember if that gave you access to the bilge area underneath the molded floor in the head?

I’m troubleshooting a head and order it that I think (hope) is due to a mess left from the PO install of a new toilet (I can see and smell the “mess”).  Easier access to that area would make my life easier, but it be nice to know if that’s the answer before I pull everything apart. 

Regards,

Ed

------------------------------------

Ed Sitver

esitver@gmail.com

WhatsApp:  +1 303-570-5071

Mobile:  +1 303-570-5071

------------------------------------

[rers...@netscape.net]

I heartily second Bill's advice on the issue of T.P. in marine heads.  Used T.P. should go in a zip lock bag and not in the toilet.  Here in the Mediterranean region they don't even flush used T.P. in domestic sanitation systems, but deposit it in small, lidded trash cans next to the toilet.  Paper and waste plumbing are a poor combination.  On another note, good old muriatic acid, the stronger the better, is the nuclear option for clearing marine waste systems.  It doesn't corrode any of the plastic, metal, or rubber components in Raritan heads, and, if introduced judiciously, and given time to work, will do wonders in keeping things clear. Vinegar is pretty useless by comparison.  Fresh water flush systems are the only answer to this perpetual predicament of salt water waste systems.

Reed  s/v Cayenne #65

On Sunday, April 7, 2019 at 11:18:22 AM UTC-4, William Stellin wrote:

One tip probably everyone already knows about is “ never flush toilet paper down the the toilet”.  Human waste will make it through an almost plugged hose or fitting. Toilet paper won’t make it through......even the stuff made especially for MSD’s.
Bill. #6

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 7, 2019, at 10:39 AM, "rabj...@gmail.com" <rabj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks much to all for the helpful input.
> Need to mull over some of the take aways
> and decide just how badly I want to proceed.
> Especially since there are some interim and
> less onerous opportunities. Again, thanks,
> Alex
> #73
>
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[William Stellin]

Be extremely careful if you are thinking of acid. When it hits water and calcium it almost explodes back from where it was poured in. Plus you need way more than you will ever dare to use. It is effective on very thin layers but it would take gallons to melt the stuff in our hoses. The lime was so thick there was only a hole of about 3/8ths wide left. 

If you are going to all the work of taking out the old hose, just beating it against a piling will clear it out. You save a ton of money and time cutting and fitting. Plus it is not necessary to do every hose. The hose to the through hull is the most critical. We still have the OEM hoses and they are odor free.........I think!  I am 83 so who knows what I can smell anymore. 

Bill #6

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[Newt Merrill]

Right on!

Newton P.S. Merrill
Sent from my iPhone

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[Kc Cuffel]

We have no stories to share about that one because we've been using the forward head for a storeroom for 10 years, so no drama.  However, a small mystery:  one time, after some long ocean passages, we discovered the forward holding tank was full of seawater.....

[David Shapiro]

Ed,

The berth floor is what your mattress lies on. The access panels are hinged, but after braining myself into concussion, like trying to learn how to snowboard when you are TFO, (too @!#$%^& old), I pulled the hinges. The cabin sole, the "floor" does not need to come up. It is a major #@$%-show, and I had to throw away my haz-mat suit, socks, shoes, gloves, hood, goggles, I and couldn't get in the shower fast enough. I took a few photos of the hose in various places and sent them to The Ayatollah, my better half, snug in Montana, for sympathy. They were horrible. Due to the corrosiveness of the effluent, and salt water,  the reinforcing wire was actually disintegrating and springing out of the hose. 1998 to 2017; that's enough time on those hoses. After cleaning everything I could wipe with a weak bleach solution, and airing out for a week, all the sewage smell went away. It was worth the effort and insanity.

Have fun, DAS

[David Shapiro]

By the way, I got rid of the Y-valve. The head now flushes directly into the holding tank, and the whale pump can either discharge overboard or I can pump out with a vac hose at the deck fitting.

DAS

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 11:40 AM Ed S <esi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Ed S]

Got it. Thanks Dave. 

I think… I hope… that my issue is just a poor clean up under the molded area that is really tough to get at after the previous owner installed the Vacuflush heads (which I would never have done, but I love ‘em).  

Side note... is Bridger Aviation an FBO?

Regards,

Ed

------------------------------------

Ed Sitver

esi...@gmail.com

WhatsApp:  +1 303-570-5071
Mobile: +1 303-570-5071

------------------------------------

[Thomas Keffer]

Kathi, I had a similar problem. I also have not used my forward head for years, yet the holding tank would keep filling up.

The culprit was the valve for the outlet thruhull: it would feel closed, but it really wasn't, allowing water to siphon in. I replaced it and all is well.

--

[rers...@netscape.net]

We're talking about the white melamine veneer plywood deck of the aft berth just forward of the bulkhead between the forward head and the V berth.  Unscrewing the perimeter screws on this panel allows you to remove the panel exposing the bilge area with the head dscharge hose and seacock.   There's a drawer in there that'll have to be removed as well.  I removed this drawer to use the entire space for storage.  This area also allows limited access to the space behind the molded head enclosure where the whale gusher head discharge pump is mounted.  There is no access,as far as I've been able to determine, to the bilge under the head.

Reed  s/v Cayenne  #65

On Sunday, April 7, 2019 at 1:40:36 PM UTC-4, Ed S wrote:

David,

By berth floor, I’m assuming you mean the teak floor in the V-berth came up. If that is the case, do you remember if that gave you access to the bilge area underneath the molded floor in the head?

I’m troubleshooting a head and order it that I think (hope) is due to a mess left from the PO install of a new toilet (I can see and smell the “mess”).  Easier access to that area would make my life easier, but it be nice to know if that’s the answer before I pull everything apart. 

Regards,

Ed

------------------------------------

Ed Sitver

esi...@gmail.com

WhatsApp:  +1 303-570-5071

Mobile:  +1 303-570-5071

------------------------------------

On Apr 7, 2019, at 12:21, David Shapiro <dashap...@gmail.com> wrote:

Alex,

I did the job last summer with professional help on all the hoses on "Sandpiper" (Hull#32). The vanity stayed in place. All the trim of the cabinet, the head door, the cabinet doors and shelving, the berth floor, drawers and some trim forward removed. The Y-valve unbolted, A good time to rebuild it and install proper duck-bill valves. All the forward head hoses were almost completely clogged with salt build-up, the aft head hoses were clear, except for the last foot. It was a very physically strenuous job. We installed a new vent with a 45 degree fitting to avoid kinking the hose and a new loop. Taking turns to saw sections of old hose, grabbing each others ankles to haul each other while tugging on stiff hoses to pop them off nipples was part of the process. We installed the highest quality saniflex smooth bore discharge hoses, somewhere around 40 feet. They were not that flexible either.

I was told that the best way to get any life out of the system was to rinse the hoses by flushing with fresh water when storing the boat between trips (periodic fresh water flush) This still includes periodic "salad dressing" vinegar flush for urine salt build-up and a non-decomposing lubricant for all the toilet valving and system hardware. Took about 4 days.

Lots of fun,

DAS

On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 11:24 AM <rabj...@gmail.com> wrote:

Any one out there have any experience changing
out the direct overboard discharge hose on the forward
head. This is the hose  that runs from
The MSD to a Y valve on the vanity then
To a thru Hull and overboard?

Alex
RAVEN
J/42 #73

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[rers...@netscape.net]

Have used muriatic acid as frequently as I've been able to find it.  It works better as a maintenance routine than as a cure for severe blockage.  It dissolves and softens the scale, which can then be flushed out with lots of fresh water.  It takes very little concentrated muriatic acid to do the trick.  I used about two liters over a two year period with good resurlts, having found a source at a chandlery in Gibraltar.

Reed  s/v Cayenne  #65

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[us50931]

Reading this thread, because I have what is a prob dumb question about the fwd head configuration on hull #1.   There is a both Y-valve and a "overboard discharge" pump  (hole for the pump handle..anyone know brand of pump?)  located in the molding at the head. I assume the Y valve is to direct the flush either to the tank or directly overboard via the Thru Hull under the V berth.   On my old boat, I plumbed an overboard discharge pump to either pump the waste up and out via the deck fitting or directly overboard, and this required another Y-valve in the config.   On this 42, I'm assuming the Overboard Discharge pump is only to pump the holding tank out via the deck fitting (topsides)?    Just want to be sure I'm not missing another Y-valve somewhere.  

Thanks for any guidance.

Sean C

[William Stellin]

The Y valve allows you to empty the forward tank by pumping it overboard thru the thru hull under the vee berth. It is allowed in the ocean offshore. 

Bill #6

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On Nov 2, 2019, at 8:17 PM, 'us50931' via J/4X Owner's Group <j4x-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[us50931]

So that must mean the msd is only plumbed to flush to the holding tank?     Surprised the MSD isn't also set up to pump directly overboard outside the 3 mile limit.   Thanks!

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[William Stellin]

You can pump the toilet directly overboard. The y valve direct the stuff to either overboard or to the holding tank. The pump empties the tank overboard thru the thru hull under the boat

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 2, 2019, at 8:35 PM, 'us50931' via J/4X Owner's Group <j4x-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>

[us50931]

Thanks...my install has two Tee's in the configuration, which was really throwing me off b/c my manual was different.  Plus, I couldn't see the other Tee originally.  Now the problem is that when I try and use the discharge pump (boat on hard, thru hull open, holding tank full of fresh water), I can't seem to get a prime.  I can hear water moving through hoses, but it's not sucking from the tank.  I wonder if the discharge through hull needs resistance (i.e water outside hull) to create suction?

[Reed Erskine]

RE:  Forward Head Overboard discharge,

The manual diaphragm pump behind the toilet in the forward head of the J42, in my experience, needed at least a half full holding tank to self prime.  After developing blisters from attempting to pump the holding tank too many times, I replaced the manual pump with a 12V macerator pump mounted on the holding tank outlet hose under the port side forward berth.  Another important aspect to consider is that the holding tank sea cock must be closed before using the deck pump-out connection.  If left open, the pump-out suction will draw sea water in through the holding tank thru-hull once the contents of the holding tank have been emptied.  Having replaced the original Y valve with a second one, I've come to the conclusion that even a little scale build-up will freeze up any Y valve, so I leave the black water permanently routed to the holding tank, and pump out when far enough off-shore, or at a pump-out facility when I find one that actually works, which hasn't been too often.

Reed  s/v Cayenne  hull #65

[William Stellin]

I’ve had the same problem. I found that if the deck pump out cap is open, air comes in and the manual pump can’t get suction. It could be air is also coming in threw the threw hull tank discharge. The overboard manual pump does work but the process is tricky. 

Bill #6

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On Nov 10, 2019, at 8:19 AM, 'us50931' via J/4X Owner's Group <j4x-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[William Stellin]

Spelling is atrocious. Should be thru hull etc

Bill #6

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 10, 2019, at 10:25 AM, William Stellin <wste...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>

[Paul Rogers]

I lived with the problems of the forward head installation until last year when I was forced to tackle the problem. Offshore in rough weather on the starboard tack, the tank would fill with seawater regardless of the Y valve position. It took at least 150 strokes to empty the tank. When the diaphragm began to leak, I finally tackled the problem. First, the pump was installed horizontally with flapper valves. Flapper valves are fine in a vertical installation, however they do not work in a horizontal installation. With the help of a saw and a little heat from a hair dryer, I was able to remove the pump, replace the diaphragm, install duck valves at each outlet and replace the pump. I also replaced the Y valve as the old valve was almost unusable. Last season I had no problem with the system. The shore pump outs seemed to work fine and left the tank empty. In the past I have avoided using the forward head when we were in controlled areas as the aft head system is so much easier. Last summer we used both head holding systems as we transited the Gota Canal and were sailing in Swedish waters with multiple pump out stations.

Paul Rogers
J-42 #38 Canty

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[William Stellin]

How did you get the old pump out?

Bill #6

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 12, 2019, at 8:29 PM, Paul Rogers <p...@midcoast.com> wrote:
>
> I lived with the problems of the forward head installation until last year when I was forced to tackle the problem. Offshore in rough weather on the starboard tack, the tank would fill with seawater regardless of the Y valve position. It took at least 150 strokes to empty the tank. When the diaphragm began to leak, I finally tackled the problem. First, the pump was installed horizontally with flapper valves. Flapper valves are fine in a vertical installation, however they do not work in a horizontal installation. With the help of a saw and a little heat from a hair dryer, I was able to remove the pump, replace the diaphragm, install duck valves at each outlet and replace the pump. I also replaced the Y valve as the old valve was almost unusable. Last season I had no problem with the system. The shore pump outs seemed to work fine and left the tank empty. In the past I have avoided using the forward head when we were in controlled areas as the aft head system is so much easier. Last summer we used both head holding systems as we transited the Gota Canal and were sailing in Swedish waters with multiple pump out stations.

>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsgid%2Fj4x-owners-group%2FDM6PR04MB65274F9763040AE6018409F4DD750%2540DM6PR04MB6527.namprd04.prod.outlook.com&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C7c42ffa9a0704e7128af08d767d8e6c1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637092053585569864&amp;sdata=KXvV6TJWnbjdK8vZHCr1gbpO4dQCl63IjqXgIVBSdkU%3D&amp;reserved=0.

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[Thomas Keffer]

Our old J/4X group on Yahoo has a lot of information about these valves. Here's one pertinent discussion. Yahoo seems to be on a mission to kill their old groups, so they will be restricting access as of 14 December.

In anticipation, here's Ivan Getting's note:

May 22, 2007

REPLACE FORWARD HOLDING TANK PUMPOUT PUMP.  Original Guzzler Diaphragm pump catalog no. M-500-V had flapper valves and did not work for worth a damn.  400 strokes discharged practically nothing from the holding tank.  A replacement pump, Guzzler Diaphragm pump catalog no. M-500-V ??, with duck-bill valves was supplied by Pearson Composites.  Aaron from Seaview North boat yard in Bellingham did the work.  He cut a large, rectangular hole around the pump in order to remove it.  He then bent and mounted a Star Board cover plate with the pump mounted to it.  The duck-bill valve pump works very well.  Three strokes, initially dry, primed it.  A few more strokes emptied the line from the nominally empty holding tank. 

New discharge pump with custom mounting panel.

 

May 23, 2007

FORWARD HOLDING TANK TEST.  Filled with fresh water.  Inspection port on the top leaks when water splashed up to it.  Must not overfill the tank.  Exit fitting seems to be tight after last winter’s repair by Dave at Western Yacht Systems.  Note: 350 strokes on the new manual pumpout pump completely empties the full holding tank.

The replacement pump, with duck-bill valves has worked well ever since.  The manufacturer explained that flapper valve were totally inappropriate for a sewage application and that the vertical surface mounting of the pump defeated and gravitational assistance that the flapper valves would have had from proper mounting on a horizontal surface.

As far as I can tell there is no way to remove the pump without some serious surgery on the head liner, as in the photo above.  Pearson mounted the pump before installing the head liner before installing the deck.  You get the picture.  Pearson's excuse for this nonsense was the the pump, which they installed with the wrong type of valves, was not expected to fail!  Mine did not work the day the boat arrived.  Sharp lads.  As you probably know Pearson Composites no longer makes J/Boats.

If you are lucky there may be some simpler fix for you pump handle problem.  Have you removed the black, flexible cover plate through which the handle is inserted to see if you can get sufficient access that way?

If your pump does not work well once you get the handle back on you may well be looking at replacing the pump, or at least the valves in it.  GET DUCK-BILL VALVES if you don't all ready have them.  The folks who make the pump were very helpful, but right now I cannot find their contact info, sorry.

Ivan Getting
S/V KITTIWAKE
Hull no. 76

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[Paul Rogers]

Bill

After removing the locker shelf, I was able to enlarge the opening on the support with a saw. I could then get access to all the hose connections. The hoses actually came off easier than I had anticipated. I was then able to lift the pump out and replace the diaphragm and add the duck valves. I then reinstalled the pump and put back the hoses.

Paul
J-42 #38

> On Nov 12, 2019, at 8:41 PM, William Stellin <wste...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> How did you get the old pump out?
> Bill #6
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Nov 12, 2019, at 8:29 PM, Paul Rogers <p...@midcoast.com> wrote:
>>
>> I lived with the problems of the forward head installation until last year when I was forced to tackle the problem. Offshore in rough weather on the starboard tack, the tank would fill with seawater regardless of the Y valve position. It took at least 150 strokes to empty the tank. When the diaphragm began to leak, I finally tackled the problem. First, the pump was installed horizontally with flapper valves. Flapper valves are fine in a vertical installation, however they do not work in a horizontal installation. With the help of a saw and a little heat from a hair dryer, I was able to remove the pump, replace the diaphragm, install duck valves at each outlet and replace the pump. I also replaced the Y valve as the old valve was almost unusable. Last season I had no problem with the system. The shore pump outs seemed to work fine and left the tank empty. In the past I have avoided using the forward head when we were in controlled areas as the aft head system is so much easier. Last summer we used both head holding systems as we transited the Gota Canal and were sailing in Swedish waters with multiple pump out stations.
>>
>> Paul Rogers
>> J-42 #38 Canty
>>
>>> On Nov 10, 2019, at 10:58 AM, William Stellin <wste...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Spelling is atrocious. Should be thru hull etc
>>> Bill #6
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>>> On Nov 10, 2019, at 10:25 AM, William Stellin <wste...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>
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[us50931]

Ok, so I tackled the job or ripping out all the plumbing in the fwd head, and "haz mat site" is fairly appropriate.   But I was able to finally get a good understanding of the insane design installed on this boat, and figured I'd write it down so someone else might benefit.   While not completely done removing all hose--going in with better tools---the goal is to add all new hose with a simpler design that still allows all pump out options.    see attached.

Sean

On Sunday, November 10, 2019 at 8:19:35 AM UTC-5, us50931 wrote:

[William Stellin]

Great work. Where are you going to mount the manual pump and the Y Valve that you show near the new pump. Thanks

Bill#6

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On Nov 28, 2019, at 6:31 AM, 'us50931' via J/4X Owner's Group <j4x-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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<plumbing diagrams j42 hull1.pdf>

[us50931]

I may be able to rebuild the old pump and re-use it in it's current location.  It's not that far a run--just a matter of how many bends are doable.  If not, I was going to mount a manual one near the thru hull.  Not ideal, but we'll rarely use it.  Will keep you posted.

On Friday, November 29, 2019 at 9:35:08 AM UTC-5, William Stellin wrote:

Great work. Where are you going to mount the manual pump and the Y Valve that you show near the new pump. Thanks

Bill#6

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 28, 2019, at 6:31 AM, 'us50931' via J/4X Owner's Group <j4x-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



Ok, so I tackled the job or ripping out all the plumbing in the fwd head, and "haz mat site" is fairly appropriate.   But I was able to finally get a good understanding of the insane design installed on this boat, and figured I'd write it down so someone else might benefit.   While not completely done removing all hose--going in with better tools---the goal is to add all new hose with a simpler design that still allows all pump out options.    see attached.

Sean

On Sunday, November 10, 2019 at 8:19:35 AM UTC-5, us50931 wrote:

Thanks...my install has two Tee's in the configuration, which was really throwing me off b/c my manual was different.  Plus, I couldn't see the other Tee originally.  Now the problem is that when I try and use the discharge pump (boat on hard, thru hull open, holding tank full of fresh water), I can't seem to get a prime.  I can hear water moving through hoses, but it's not sucking from the tank.  I wonder if the discharge through hull needs resistance (i.e water outside hull) to create suction?

On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 8:38:47 PM UTC-4, William Stellin wrote:

You can pump the toilet directly overboard. The y valve direct the stuff to either overboard or to the holding tank. The pump empties the tank overboard thru the thru hull under the boat

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 2, 2019, at 8:35 PM, 'us50931' via J/4X Owner's Group <j4x-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>

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[William Stellin]

While your suggestions for simplifying the hose routing is intriguing, you require 3 separate 3 way valves vs 1 and the pump to be relocated near the tank. My problem is where to locate the valves and pump. 

With the original system only one valve has to be selected. With your diagram, all three have to be activated for different functions. This by itself is not a big problem. The real trick will be locating them so one can actually get to them without being a contortionist. Plus it will be a trial to remember which valve to turn which way. I am sure TPI installed the system for ease and convenience of use ( as opposed to ease of repair).  The real fault with the present  system are the tee’s and the y valve which seems to have magnetisms for calcium buildup and plugging. Keeping them clean is impossible. The Y valve gets hard to operate within 2-3 months of being descaled plus it’s almost impossible to service. 

Good luck

Bill #6

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On Nov 28, 2019, at 6:31 AM, 'us50931' via J/4X Owner's Group <j4x-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[William Stellin]

Some time ago I discovered the head pump will not function if the deck discharge cap is open. It must be closed and the anti siphon device working properly. Anything that lets air into the system will prevent suction at the pump. When the system is airtight it works fine. I suspect some owners with problems have pump diaphragms that might be leaking air as well. 

Bill #6

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 28, 2019, at 6:31 AM, 'us50931' via J/4X Owner's Group <j4x-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



[us50931]

Your right.. this new design adds two more y-valves (more $), but short shorten the amount of hose needed.  I think the degree of simplicity will depend on where I can install the y-valves.  I can put them near the discharge thru-hull that location seems fair accessible.    I'm used to having a "map" for everything lately, so this plumbing system will require one for sure.   Agreed that TPI probably had ease of use in mind, although now seems counterproductive given how well the original system actual works (not).   Will advise on progress.    

Sean 

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[Reed Erskine]

B.S. is, in spite of his name's initials, usually correct.  In my 14 years of J42 ownership I've had two Y valves in the forward head, the original, and its replacement.  Removal and installation of these wretched things is an awful ordeal.  Each one slowly froze up, requiring ever greater amounts of torque, until the risk of breaking something precluded their use entirely.  Disassembly and cleaning to restore operation, being an unappealing option, I leave the Y valve on holding tank position.  Level sensors on the tank warn of impending overfill, and a macerator pump empties the holding tank with the flip of a switch.  The pitch of the electric macerator indicates when the tank is empty.  Having been cruising the Med for eight years, we've found it's better to have the Y valve in permanent holding tank position, as many countries enforce coastal clean water rules with big fines if an inspection finds a Y valve in overboard position.   I would consider fabricating your own "Y valve" from two nylon ball valves T'd  in tandem.  It sounds awkward, but I'd do anything to avoid another Y valve.

Reed  s/v Cayenne  J42#65

On Friday, November 29, 2019 at 3:44:58 PM UTC-5, us50931 wrote:eight

[us50931]

Just wanted to provide an update as I near completion of the fwd head re-plumbing project (thank god!).    I modified the redesign to make sure that any waste directed overboard will go through the vented loop.  This involved moving the second (new) Y-valve to under the sink.   The other new Y-valve is located near the discharge thru-hull, so fairly easy access to both.  I decided to not leave any original hose in place, and once I got it all out it was a good choice because the permeation was awful.   Also, this boat sat for ~18 months with the holding tank 3/4 full (!!!), so I decided to replace the tank (specs for old and new tank in the enclosure).  Everything I read said plastic tanks DO NOT permeate, but I've tried everything with this tank and it still reeks.  So for all the effort involved the extra few $$ seemed worth it.   Also reused existing bosworth pump in same location above the MSD;  just rebuilt it with duckbill valves and new diaphragm. Finally, I upgraded the vent line to 1" sanitation hose.  The old vent was 1/2" water hose that was almost 100% kinked at a slight bend through the bulkhead.   At this stage I have about 20 man hrs into it, and estimate five more to finish.  Good riddance.   Sean