Proposal etiquette

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Jasper Nance

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Feb 25, 2022, 2:24:13 PM2/25/22
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Hey everybody, I wanted to bring up a discussion here about hack your hacker space proposal etiquette.

It seems that different parties have different expectations about how the proposal process works and maybe they're codified and maybe they're not but maybe they need to be brought up anyway even if they're codified.

I'd like to start a quick discussion on the following: 

Is it allowed to vote to postpone for more information?

Is it allowed to have a discussion about the proposal during the meeting? If this is allowed how long is this allowed to go on for before a vote for proposal is made to keep things from going on for hours?

If it is not allowed to have a discussion about the proposal at hack your hacker space how do we deal with the fact that there is no official channel outside of hack your hacker space, the Google groups and the slack groups require that you have accounts to participate. It was brought up that we have multiple channels including IRC but none of them are officially official. 

How do we handle people who might be unplugged from the internet since the space is de facto a physical space and not a virtual space? (This has always been an important part of hacker spaces)

Jasper

Nate Caine

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Feb 26, 2022, 10:47:45 AM2/26/22
to HeatSync Labs
In the past one member was demanding that we NOT have any discussion at meetings.
The thought being that everything should be discussed online, and the meeting was nothing more than the voting formality.
That might make for a quick meeting, but overall it's a bad idea.

Often, in person, somebody asks a probing question that others then key off of with their own insights.
Sometimes they're not even sure of what question they're asking, but still manage to raise a valid point.
And often people are just clarifying a last minute question.

Usually when the discussion goes on too long, that's indicative of too many unanswered questions or a problematic proposal.  
In those cases I'm inclined to vote "no" and send it back for re-work.
This often works well and they return with a very clean revised proposal, that is quickly approved at a later meeting.
(And we avoid a "sympathy vote" where we pass something marginal then waste time down the road amending, clarifying, regretting, or rescinding the mess.)

Also, we've had proposals that were so heavily reworked at HYH, that I'm certain we don't know which revisions we're voting on.
Even when the discussion was mostly online, the way Google Groups (and other forums) string along, it's easy to miss a sub- sub- sub-comment.
It would be nice for the OP to incorporate any amendments or revisions they are agreeing to into a final proposal posted before the meeting.

At the HYH meeting, we'd benefit from having the thing up on the screen.
(It's unreasonable to consider a several paragraph-long proposal, heavily revised, and to be expected to just have it read aloud prior to voting.)
Sometimes a proposal could contain several alternates, and then we'd choose among them.
(Recently, this happened in deciding how-many, and what-price laptops to buy.)

Eric Ose

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Feb 26, 2022, 10:48:45 AM2/26/22
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Let's keep this topic to proposals in general. See my final hopefully final words on the other proposal in that thread.

The HeatSync Labs website says "official discussion group" with the link to the google discussion group. I am not a fan of proprietary services, but it is what we have been using as official. Not sure when or why Slack got the words unofficial removed from the link, so perhaps someone can enlighten me on that.

According to the HYH page on the wiki;  "Proposals should be discussed in depth on the forums prior to HYH".

I was incorrect that proposals could be changed 24 hours in advance. It says "Proposals locked one week before HYH ".

It does say "Proposals should be small in scope, operational, and actionable". emphasis added. No comment on that, but worth noting in the future.

It also says; Members have the ability to dismiss a proposal because they feel it's too broad or should be handled by the board.

Jot is still correct that it's not the google group is not a great tool for immediate communications. The merits of other systems is of course a possible lengthy discussion.



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Eric Ose

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Feb 26, 2022, 10:59:18 AM2/26/22
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I am the one who complains about people starting discussions during HYH rather than posting about their concerns on the group. Turns out you don't need any training at simple sabotage to interfere with organizational effectiveness.

Let's keep this topic to proposals in general. See my final hopefully final words on the other proposal in that thread.

The HeatSync Labs website says "official discussion group" with the link to the google discussion group. I am not a fan of proprietary services, but it is what we have been using as official. Not sure when or why Slack got the words unofficial removed from the link, so perhaps someone can enlighten me on that.

According to the HYH page on the wiki;  "Proposals should be discussed in depth on the forums prior to HYH".

I was incorrect that proposals could be changed 24 hours in advance. It says "Proposals locked one week before HYH ".

It does say "Proposals should be small in scope, operational, and actionable". emphasis added. No comment on that, but worth noting in the future.

It also says; Members have the ability to dismiss a proposal because they feel it's too broad or should be handled by the board.

Jot is still correct that it's not the google group is not a great tool for immediate communications. The merits of other systems is of course a possible lengthy discussion.

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Jasper Nance

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Feb 26, 2022, 11:03:09 AM2/26/22
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Ouch dude, are you really attempting to accuse members with legitimate concerns of being anti heat sink and sabotaging on the organization? That's a pretty serious accusation.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CAEk_gvAES%2BEpCXsatkYSYmqP7Ccz_s_xeHnN99oC_EjBUGaH9w%40mail.gmail.com.

Eric Ose

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Feb 26, 2022, 11:04:21 AM2/26/22
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No I am not.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CAFccYqFaUFNW3yfkSGR3MxmDQ_NBpi%2Bu03TonvKGrbJO0x%3DiOg%40mail.gmail.com.

Robert Bushman

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Feb 26, 2022, 11:41:54 AM2/26/22
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I took "don't need training ... to interfere" to mean, "It's easy to
accidentally disrupt things, even if you are trying to be helpful."

I know I have done it at many meetings, often just because I am
interested in the topic and want to learn more about it. I start asking
questions out of curiosity and unintentionally derail the agenda.

It helps to have folks who are comfortable saying things like, "I think
we're getting off into the weeds - does anyone mind if we move on with
the proposal and circle back to the general discussion at the end of the
meeting?"

Side note: Love the discussion - I think this topic is a perpetual
challenge, especially with a bunch of inquisitive people.


On 2/26/22 09:04, Eric Ose wrote:
> No I am not.
>
> -Eric Ose
> Robot Ambassador <http://azrobotambassador.com/>
> Southwest Maker Fest <http://www.southwestmakerfest.com/>President
> HeatSync Labs <https://www.heatsynclabs.org/> Volunteer
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 26, 2022 at 9:03 AM Jasper Nance <nebar...@gmail.com
> <mailto:nebar...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Ouch dude, are you really attempting to accuse members with
> legitimate concerns of being anti heat sink and sabotaging on the
> organization? That's a pretty serious accusation.
>
> On Sat, Feb 26, 2022, 8:59 AM Eric Ose <eric...@gmail.com
> <mailto:eric...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I am the one who complains about people starting discussions
> during HYH rather than posting about their concerns on the
> group. Turns out you don't need any training at simple sabotage
> <https://archive.org/details/SimpleSabotageFieldManual> to
> interfere with organizational effectiveness.
>
> -Eric Ose
> Robot Ambassador <http://azrobotambassador.com/>
> Southwest Maker Fest <http://www.southwestmakerfest.com/>President
> HeatSync Labs <https://www.heatsynclabs.org/> Volunteer
>
>
>
> Let's keep this topic to proposals in general. See my final
> hopefully final words on the other proposal in that thread.
>
> The HeatSync Labs website says "official discussion group"
> with the link to the google discussion group. I am not a fan
> of proprietary services, but it is what we have been using
> as official. Not sure when or why Slack got the words
> unofficial removed from the link, so perhaps someone can
> enlighten me on that.
>
> According to the HYH page on the wiki
> <https://wiki.heatsynclabs.org/wiki/Hack_Your_Hackerspace>;
> "Proposals should be discussed in depth on the forums prior
> to HYH".
>
> I was incorrect that proposals could be changed 24 hours in
> advance. It says "Proposals locked one week before HYH ".
>
> It does say "*Proposals should be small in scope*,
> operational, and actionable". emphasis added. No comment on
> that, but worth noting in the future.
>
> It also says; Members have the ability to dismiss a proposal
> because they feel it's too broad or should be handled by the
> board.
>
> Jot is still correct that it's not the google group is not a
> great tool for immediate communications. The merits of other
> systems is of course a possible lengthy discussion.
>
> On Sat, Feb 26, 2022 at 8:47 AM Nate Caine
> <nate...@gmail.com <mailto:nate...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> In the past one member was demanding that we NOT have
> any discussion at meetings.
> The thought being that everything should be discussed
> online, and the meeting was nothing more than the voting
> formality.
> That might make for a quick meeting, but overall it's a
> bad idea.
>
> Often, in person, somebody asks a probing question that
> others then key off of with their own insights.
> Sometimes they're not even sure of what question they're
> asking, but still manage to raise a valid point.
> And often people are just clarifying a last minute question.
>
> Usually when the discussion goes on */too /*long, that's
> <mailto:heatsynclabs...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/ae85a9cc-51c1-4d2e-b107-da138359bd63n%40googlegroups.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/ae85a9cc-51c1-4d2e-b107-da138359bd63n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it, send an email to heatsynclabs...@googlegroups.com
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> To view this discussion on the web visit
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CAEk_gvAES%2BEpCXsatkYSYmqP7Ccz_s_xeHnN99oC_EjBUGaH9w%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
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>
> --
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> To view this discussion on the web visit
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Nate Caine

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Feb 26, 2022, 1:47:20 PM2/26/22
to HeatSync Labs
Last year when discussing a proposal to accept the silk-screen printing equipment into the kitchen I posted a (characteristically over-long) check list, that should apply to many proposals.  

(Jasper is asking about "etiquette", so maybe this is off-topic, but addresses the proposal making process.)  


If folks making proposals had a check list of items to address in their proposals, then there would be less need for lengthy online discussions, and the in-person meetings would go faster with fewer issues to address.

I, too, had concerns at the recent HYH about how many days in advance a proposal is locked-down, and how extensively can it be amended.
Generally we follow Roberts Rules, and that provides guidance for tabling a proposal for further study.

...and adding a few more, things like:
  • Building Impact 
    • electrical
    • ventilation
    • floorspace
    • water
  • Ongoing Costs
    • maintenance
    • repairs
    • consumables
  • Usage
    • cleaning
    • training
    • classes
    • lifetime
  • Other Impact
    • financial
    • utilities
    • insurance
    • allowed? (zoning, etc)
    • HeatSync "goodwill"
    • advertising
    • grants
    • in line with our mission/vision
With limited resources, we can't do everything, so this helps us test how well a proposal fits.

Eric Wood

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Feb 26, 2022, 2:51:19 PM2/26/22
to HeatSync Labs

Is it allowed to vote to postpone for more information?

I don’t think that it is allowed to vote to postpone for more information, at least I don’t recall seeing any discussion of this on the wiki. I think it is reasonable for someone to observe that postponing makes sense. The person making the proposal would then have the opportunity to withdraw the proposal so that it could be re-proposed for a following meeting.

In a recent vote I abstained because the primary party the proposal impacted suggested that there was no hurry and several people at the HYH meeting had questions they needed answered before casting a vote. In retrospect, I regret not supporting the proposal more vigorously. The particular proposal had built-in checks-and-balances. The proposed change/activity required board and station-head approval for each time that it would have been used. I cannot think of many/any situations where this is not enough. If for some reason those safeguards would have failed we ALWAYS have the option of bringing forward a new proposal to address the problem.

Is discussion allowed during the meeting?

I sure hope so. As Jasper pointed out, HSL is a physical space. All the learning I have had around communication suggests that in-person collaboration is superior to offline modes whenever possible.

How long should such discussion go on?

While I don’t believe there is anything currently in the rules I would support the idea of calling for a vote after a maximum 30 minutes of discussion.

What is HeatSync’s official communication channel?

In every discussion I have heard, both before and after the creation of our Slack channels, Google Groups is our official channel of communication. All proposals must be made on Google Groups no less than 7-days prior to the HYH meeting. Discussion of these proposals should be on the thread in Google Groups. Slack, on the other hand, is primarily for short, unofficial, communication. The only area where I have seen any confusion is around hosting. I think the best path forward there is to use whatever channel works best to coordinate a host. Open hours and events should be posted to the Google calendar. Cancellations should be posted on Google Groups and the calendar when possible. For the most part I believe this is our current practice.

Eric Ose

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Feb 28, 2022, 4:49:02 PM2/28/22
to HSL Google Group
I like the things Nate shared to help people prepare a proposal. Perhaps there are other things that can be suggested for those who are writing a proposal. It won't really solve the problem of people who remain disengaged in the online discussion and show up the day of a proposal wanting it changed.

I suggest people who want to get through a proposal process just plan on a month instead of the next HYH. That way they can have the discussion at one HYH  then hopefully have something people will be willing to vote for by the next HYH. Not an ideal solution, but the best idea I have at present.

HeatSync Labs Volunteer


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