HSL google group

[Tony Brenke]

Hello all,

   I dont think any of you have heard of me or remember me popping in now and then to HSL, but I have been part of your google group for many years. I moved to Phoenix back in 2011 and started looking for a group like the Seattle Robotis Society.

HSL is as close as I have found.  sence I live on the north west side I have not made it over to HSL as much as I would have liked. So I did the second best thing and joined your google group.

I just recently turned 60 and have a low threshold for what seams to me to be petty bickering. Your google group is open to the public and is for most everyone the only public face you have. I have to tell you that the infighting that you put on the email goup does not put you all is a very good light. From outside HSL is not a place I would want to go or recomend to my kids or their kids. 

I know this is an unsoliceted opnion from an outside source that has no weight. but do know, you are not doing HSL any good with this.

"This community space exists to support creativity and collaboration."  This is NOT what is being shown.  take it for what it is worth...

Tony Brenke

[Katy Osterwald]

Hi Tony,

Hi Tony,

I completely agree with you, and I'm a regular at HSL. The petty, constant bickering is killing the lab, and we have lost who knows how many potential new members because of it. I absolutely hate that it is continually done in public-facing areas, or even at lab events with rehashing of old dramas and talking "lab politics". Everyone needs to be more conscientious of how this appears to the general public or the new people who have joined this Google Group or the Slack for information, and restrict the lab politics to our Hack Your Hackerspace meetings or private channels for those interested.

I worked retail for years, and it was absolutely a hard rule at several of the stores I worked in that we were not to talk drama on the shop floor because of this. It's a terrible look.

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[David Lang]

I also don't like the drama, but as for the "you shouldn't do it in public, it
makes the org look bad", where should any conflicts be discussed? given that we
don't have any times when all of our membership is in one place, it needs to go
out to the members over out electronic channels. We don't have any of those that
will reach our members and only our members (even more so when the fact that not
all members check any particular platform on a regular basis)

and as bad as public discussions look, whisper campaigns where only people who
the campaigners think will agree with them are communicated with are even worse,
and they lead to HYH votes where one side brings a lot of supporters and other
members don't even know there's an issue (even in my short time here I've seen
this happen)

David Lang

>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/a6a36123-26d8-46c9-a390-e8e4d248eb3en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
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[Katy Osterwald]

Easy. Make a members-only restricted channel in Slack and a Google group, add ALL current paying members who are eligible for voting at HYH, keep discussion to there. Put out messaging with "no drama in public" with info about the members-only areas, and then actually moderate the public-facing areas. And if voting members don't pay attention, well, that's on them.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/pos3o31q-n9n9-0o21-5645-63rn73244pnr%40ynat.uz.

[Moheeb Zara]

I think the concern is valid. It has been an issue long before the last 2 years when things got contentious and some people signed on to the mailing list just for alerts on events with no interest in being dragged into governance debates, disputes between volunteers, or issues you would rightfully be passionate to argue but only matter to subset of people. 

HeatSync has always been about maximum transparency, but transparency doesn't mean we have to surface everything to one place. I've brought it up before (even made the discord as an alternative to the mailing list and slack) we should look into something that lets people decide what they want going to their inbox vs not, a forum, another platform meant for this sort of thing, anything. Maybe its just we agree to commit to discussing certain topics in person or link to a thread on slack, i tried doing this before unsuccessfully.

When in doubt, Hack Your Hackerspace should be the venue. 

I also agree we shouldn't be carrying bickering into the physical space. It was mentioned people rehash old drama too. A lot of us do this. I know I've been guilty of participating in this and I've tried to be better but can fall short of my own standards sometimes. 

On one hand I am for being radically whatever we are out in the open, even if thats a mess, on the other hand our continued growth and success relies on us demonstrating that we can be just as warm and welcoming online as we are in person.

In person we are doing overall well, the lab is growing, there has been more collaboration, activity, and programming. Real community building is happening. New people are stepping up to volunteer. The way things play out online here don't reflect that well and when that toxicity flows into meatspace thats a detriment. Its a flaw we have to own up to and start relegating heavy stuff to the appropriate venues. 

Its also unsurprising, 1768 person mailing list, lots of differing opinions, lots of us neurospicy folks of varying degrees, different communication styles, and the courage that comes from being behind a screen...in any community that results in a lot of cruft, chaos, and riled feathers. Google groups also isn't as well moderated. 

We'll never be perfect, but we should acknowledge this and make conscious efforts to improve our communication (myself included). 

I personally completely stopped using the mailing list for nearly a decade for awhile because it got so bad even back then, greatly improved my mental health and I'm likely to do the same again after a resolution on the current conflict.

Also, I just get the weekly digests, I don't know if there is anyone who gets everything in their inbox as they come in, if so...how do you live?!

[Antonio Contrisciani]

Unfortunately that would be a violation of the bylaws of the space. As distasteful as this entire scenario has been, it has in fact been following our bylaws to the letter.

Proposal Discussion and Refinement (9-Day Discussion Period, Lock-In Rule)

• Members provide public feedback in the Google Group before the HYH meeting.
• Proposals should be discussed in depth, and members are encouraged to provide substantive feedback rather than just “+1” or “I agree.”
• The proposer may adjust the proposal based on discussion, but:
• No further changes may be made within one week of the HYH meeting.
• The final version of the proposal must be clearly posted and locked in the Google Group at least one week before the meeting.
• If members feel a proposal is too broad or outside the scope of an operational decision, they may request it be dismissed or handled by the Board.
  

Ultimately, this entire scenario is a proposal by the membership. The google groups are the location and mechanism we have in place to discuss the proposal. 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CAPd1mgEQZOYBJQMaoFunW-ft45bHMxG%3Dt9yz4cuxeDsiuCDPjw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Katy Osterwald]

I'm going to get nitpicky... that says "Members" specifically, not "general public" and while there is a "the" in front of the Google Group, it does not specify an actual titled Google Group, so an argument could be made that a members-only Google Group could be created for proposal discussion.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CALmAu840MVOxAHW6MyYDgkd_2xyVMdFfLhbzB6e6Aq4K3BycNg%40mail.gmail.com.

[David Lang]

Moheeb Zara wrote:

> Also, I just get the weekly digests, I don't know if there is anyone who
> gets everything in their inbox as they come in, if so...how do you live?!

I don't deal with it in real time, but reading really fast helps :-). But I
didn't start bothering to dig into anti-spam filtering before it got up to ~500
spam messages a day, it just wasn't a large enough percentage of my inbox to
bother automating :-)

David Lang

[Antonio Contrisciani]

I would have to dig it up for you katy, but this is THE official google group in which all lab business has to be performed, going back for a long time.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CAPd1mgHA3fTdZVYqCuLCp8tDNCoKf-TRB3YM1b2z1Q-oAh8VGw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Katy Osterwald]

So if that's the case, then make this one the members-only one, and create a new one that is for the public to get info. I don't know, I just think something has to change around here, it's clearly damaging HSL's reputation and the ability to bring new people in (and from the other thread, working with other organizations that may be valuable to the lab).

And in all transparency I am not a member and can't make a proposal. I'm not a member because all this stuff drives me crazy, and if I didn't absolutely need access to some of the tools at the lab for my business, I honestly would not still be coming to HSL because of some of the behaviors I have seen and experienced on numerous occasions on the various socials and in the lab. So, just take this as feedback from a somewhat outsider perspective to what non-members experience coming into the lab, and getting hit with the endless drama barrage.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CALmAu84izaZEOVj8dYfbc2xB2PrK5JRo5sX57y20Q2qVKhmO7A%40mail.gmail.com.

[Antonio Contrisciani]

Now that is an idea with some merit, however it then stops the general public from receiving "non drama" official notices unless they get duplicated across groups. While I can certainly understand and empathize with the desire not to see "dirty laundry" aired, I think it's also integral to our processes and our community that everything IS public and open and messy. We are a community and communities have drama. They have conflict, they have friction. Pretending its not happening or sweeping it under a members only rug I feel would be a disservice to the community as a whole. While certainly outsiders looking in may be turned off by the so called infighting, I think many would also appreciate the openness and transparency of our process and would also see that ultimately, while we may have large public disagreements (you should have seen the groups during covid), ultimately as a community we make a decision and then come together to get back to our core purpose, making stuff.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CAPd1mgFSTFj1LTnCwzF36LK8%3DFVdduTNNTAS%3DFq6dts70-XbEA%40mail.gmail.com.

[David Lang]

sometimes what turns non-members into members is the desire to fix stuff they
see as broken in a resource they want to use.

there are advanages to being open as well as disadvantages. for HSL, this was a
decision long before my time.

David Lang

>>>> - *Members provide public feedback in the Google Group before the
>>>> HYH meeting.*
>>>> - Proposals should be discussed in depth, and members are

>>>> encouraged to provide substantive feedback rather than just “+1” or “I
>>>> agree.”

>>>> - The proposer may adjust the proposal based on discussion, but:
>>>> - No further changes may be made within one week of the HYH
>>>> meeting.
>>>> - The final version of the proposal must be clearly posted and

>>>> locked in the Google Group at least one week before the meeting.

>>>> - If members feel a proposal is too broad or outside the scope of

>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CAPd1mgEQZOYBJQMaoFunW-ft45bHMxG%3Dt9yz4cuxeDsiuCDPjw%40mail.gmail.com
>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CAPd1mgEQZOYBJQMaoFunW-ft45bHMxG%3Dt9yz4cuxeDsiuCDPjw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>

>>>>> .
>>>>>
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>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "HeatSync Labs" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to heatsynclabs...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion visit

>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CALmAu840MVOxAHW6MyYDgkd_2xyVMdFfLhbzB6e6Aq4K3BycNg%40mail.gmail.com
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CALmAu840MVOxAHW6MyYDgkd_2xyVMdFfLhbzB6e6Aq4K3BycNg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>

>>>> .
>>>>
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>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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>>> To view this discussion visit

>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CAPd1mgHA3fTdZVYqCuLCp8tDNCoKf-TRB3YM1b2z1Q-oAh8VGw%40mail.gmail.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CAPd1mgHA3fTdZVYqCuLCp8tDNCoKf-TRB3YM1b2z1Q-oAh8VGw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>

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>> .
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[Luis Montes]

David Lang started the drama thread. Hi David 👋 You could ask him to not do that in the future, if you like. Or tune it out? Seems pretty easy! Next problem

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/9qop4orr-7o3r-n484-p06s-q88nsp9r6746%40ynat.uz.

[Katy Osterwald]

You know, at least David has been respectful here, regardless of his politics. Can't say the same for you.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/heatsynclabs/CAAhnbvtGdi-z1LT4ApK0MDYTwc76LGRtBJ8f%2Bf1d6VRXDiTSrw%40mail.gmail.com.