Torch Challenge!

[tnort...@gmail.com]

I am back to working on my 3rd frame build! I use a oxy/propane setup with a concentrator.  So I have set about doing practice fillet brazing but having so hiccups with my torch. 

I use Paige Tool tips . I now,not in the past,seem to be having a challenge getting the torch  to light. I have referred back to my manual, from Doug Fattic's class, but no go.

My flame is difficult to lite. I set the concentrator to just shy of 3 liters and set my propane @ 3-5 psi but the flame keeps blowing out. So I fiddle and eventually get it to lite. Seems like when it warms up it is easier to relate. The only thing I can see that has changed is my propane is getting  low. 

Thoughts?

Thanks! 

Tom

NE Ohio

[Matt Wilkinson]

I think propane tips should be slightly counterbored.  Helps prevent a detached flame. If the flame is detached from your tip it will go out when you turn the gas up.

Matt Wilkinson

London, UK

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[tnort...@gmail.com]

This tips are made for propane. Funny thing is when I first set it up I had no problem. Yesterday I boil3d the tips per the instructions to give them a good cleaning. 

[Doug Fattic]

Tom the typical reason a propane flame blows out is because you have either the propane or oxygen or both turned up too high at the torch to start.  You barely turn them on to light the flame and then up the volume on both after they are lit.

It is also possible that your propane regulator pressure or concentrator is turned up too much too. 

Doug Fattic 

NIles, Michigan  

On Tuesday, March 18, 2025 at 7:49:22 AM UTC-4 Matt Wilkinson wrote:

[Matt Wilkinson]

My next guess would be reaming the tip out thoroughly with a nozzle cleaner.

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[Tom Norton]

Doug,
Thanks for commenting!  I have been attempting to adjust the O2 down but then the alarm goes off and it shuts down.  My procedure is O2 @ 3 and just a bit of a turn ,on the torch,   of the propane.  But it keeps blowing out.

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[John]

I've had this problem when my concentrator isn't outputting a high enough concentration of oxygen. This of course always happens when the machine is turned on, but I've also had it intermittently happen (which is annoying). I've learned that my concentrator doesn't like to oscillate between high flow and no flow, so I added an extra valve to the outlet so the concentrator is always outputting 1-2 lpm as a baseline. I think this has helped avoid the low oxygen alarm.

rosy, in Providence

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[tnort...@gmail.com]

Doug, 

Thanks for commenting! I have been attempting to adjust the O2 down but then the alarm goes off and it shuts down. My procedure is O2 @ 3 and just a bit of a turn ,on the torch, of the propane. But it keeps blowing out

[tnort...@gmail.com]

Took some time this afternoon to fuss with my torch. I guess I  need to look more closely at the propane gauge!  When I though  was @ 5psi I  was actually @ 10! A bit of fiddling and all is well.

I finally received the rosebud tip I had ordered. Played a bit with this. This is to be run @10psi.

Thanks again! 

Tom

NE Ohio 

[Jon Norstog]

You may have some water in your tank.  Try a fresh tank of propane. 

jn

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[tnort...@gmail.com]

I'm getting one on Thursday! 

Tom

NE Ohio 

[Doug Fattic]

Let me explain a bit more about using propane with an oxygen concentrator. I’ve been promoting their use for many years because of convenience, cost and safety. Using them has challenges and Tom’s question illustrates one.  1st, the concentrator has to run a few minutes to purge the line before full oxygen (like 93%) is flowing out the end.  I usually turn on the concentrator when I am fluxing the pieces.  The flow rate is set by turning a knob.  This is kind of a trial and error situation.  The larger the tip, the more flow is required.  So, it can’t be a set and forget, it has to be adjusted to tip size.  That is why when Tom uses his rosebud, he’ll need to turn up the volume flow. 

The most common problem that Tom recently discovered is that the flow rate from either gas can blow out the flame.  There are 4 sources to adjust, at the tank regulator or concentrator or instead at the torch handle.  Again, lower the pressure when using a smaller tip.  Of course, the opposite is true.  A weakness of a concentrator is using a rosebud that a 5 lpm unit can’t put out enough if using a bigger one (it can keep up with a smaller one).  They make 10 lpm units.  M&M Medical that sells used concentrators says the bigger units have more frequent repair issues as well as cost more to begin with. Watching my students try to light their torch, a common rookie problem is turning the propane control knob too far on the torch handle.  They expect to turn it about a quarter but in fact it is more like a 1/16 turn.  Once lit, one can up the propane flow and then the oxygen.  It is easier to do it that way that upping the oxygen 1st.  Lighting a propane flame is fussier than using acetylene.  Eventually it becomes 2nd nature.  

Propane specific tips come in 2 varieties.  The 1st is when the tip is recessed at the end like a Victor TEN tip.  These work fine most of the time.  Their biggest issue is when doing a fillet braze and the flame tip is close to the work and the blow back from the gas flow blows out the flame.  The jeweler trade has come out with multi-port tips that are more difficult to blow out.  Surrounding the main orifice are much smaller holes (slits in the case of Paige tips) that help stabilize the flame.  The oldest version is made for the Meco Midget torch handle and their threads only fit the end of the Meco elbow.  The Paige company has come up with alternative tips.  Both versions work well.  The problem of course is if someone wants to use a different torch handle then the Midget (I don’t like the Midget at all).  Us frame builders ganged up on Richard at Paige and finally he came out with adaptors that convert Meco threads into the most popular US torch brands.  Because their tips are made for the jewelry trade, they (as in the 5 different sizes they make) are on the small side for framebuilders.  In other words, their smallest tips would be rarely if ever used by us.  G-tec and Gentec (not the same company) also makes multiport tips.  G-tec (with Victor threads) are larger and can be used instead of Rosebuds if one wants a sharp center flame.  Gentec are just cheaper versions of the Victor TEN series.  

Welders Warehouse in the UK used to sell great Multi-port tips for propane in 4 different sizes.  They may still but I can’t seem to navigate their website enough to find out if they still do.  It might be my incompetence or they no longer supply them.  Maybe Matt can find out? 

Doug Fattic

Niles, Michigan 

[John]

Doug, why does setting the flow rate on the oxygen concentrator matter? My assumption has been that the tip is the constriction that ultimately sets the flow rate -- I can max out the concentrator, and watch the flow rate change based on my tip and how much I've opened the torch. I've been assuming that the flow meter in the concentrator works similarly to a flow meter for a TIG welding machine, which outputs a constant pressure regardless of flow rate. So my assumption has been that gas pressure coming out of the concentrator has been relatively constant, but I haven't tested this.

rosy, in Providence

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[Mark Bulgier]

Lotsa great intel there Doug, we're lucky to have you here.  I've been brazing with propane since the '80s but I still learn stuff from you.

I just wanted to comment on Tom's experience with the concentrator turning itself off.  That's gotta be a bug, not a feature, right?  Why on earth would you want a medical device to just turn off if an error condition is detected?  In this case, low flow.  Wouldn't the patient much rather have low flow than to have it just turn itself off?  What's the make and model of the concentrator, can we get some tech support for it?

My concentrator had an annoying low-flow buzzer, so I fixed it — I snipped the wire to the buzzer!  But mine didn't turn itself off, that would be infuriating.

Mark B in Seattle

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[jim g]

Thanks!

-Jim G

Doug Fattic wrote:

 

Let me explain a bit more about using propane with an oxygen concentrator. I’ve been promoting their use for many years because of convenience, cost and safety. Using them has challenges and Tom’s question illustrates one.  1st, the concentrator has to run a few minutes to purge the line before full oxygen (like 93%) is flowing out the end.  I usually turn on the concentrator when I am fluxing the pieces.  

My first concentrator (an old Puritan Bennett 590) had an "O2 concentration" sensor -- it would illuminate a yellow LED when first lit, and then after a few minutes when the concentration would reach about 93%, it would switch to green.  If there was a failure to reach 93%, instead a red LED would light, an alarm would sound, and the machine would shut off.  This was great when things were working well, but annoying when the machine started having problems.  My current oxycon doesn't have this feature, and I don't really miss it.

 

The flow rate is set by turning a knob.  This is kind of a trial and error situation.  The larger the tip, the more flow is required.  So, it can’t be a set and forget, it has to be adjusted to tip size.  That is why when Tom uses his rosebud, he’ll need to turn up the volume flow. 

I leave the flow meter on the oxycon set to maximum, and regulate the O2 flow at the torch.

 

A weakness of a concentrator is using a rosebud that a 5 lpm unit can’t put out enough if using a bigger one (it can keep up with a smaller one).  They make 10 lpm units.  M&M Medical that sells used concentrators says the bigger units have more frequent repair issues as well as cost more to begin with. 

You can also connect multiple machines together to get more flow, e.g. two 5LPM machines run in parallel will give 10LPM.  Lampworkers do this frequently to run their big bench torches.  Apparently you need two one-way check-valves and a Y-connector -- See http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243067

I can run a Victor-style 4-TEN propane tip or a small rosebud on my 5LPM machine, but it does max it out.

 

Thanks!

-Jim G

[tnort...@gmail.com]

Mark, the only time the concentrator turns off is I adjust the flow,on the unit, down too low. As for the annoying buzzer.  I disconnected it.

I know I am limited with the Rosebud but I  am going to play around with it.

Some info that came from Paige Tool suggested  having a backflow preventer on the O2 concentrator to prevent propane from getting into it.  This I don't understand. 

Tom

NE Ohio 

[AJ XOXO]

How long would you say, on average, you need to leave the oxygen concentrator on before striking a flame?  With oxy acetylene, I’ve always started with gas first, then light the torch, then add oxygen.  With oxy propane, if you have to turn on the oxygen first for how long?  5 min to get the oxy concentrator machine going, then by the time you turn off the oxy concentrator machine just to quickly turn on the gas and light it….then add oxygen… seems like you’d lose whatever effect you had by waiting 5 min just to get the oxy contractor going.  Am I right?or do you light the torch with both oxygen and propane on?

[Jim Gourgoutis]

I switch on my machine about 5 minutes before. I let it run with the oxygen valve open at the torch. When I’m ready to light the flame, I shut off the O2 valve at the torch temporarily — it’ll run a minute or two before t he alarm sounds. Then I open the fuel valve, light it, add oxygen, and adjust as per usual. 

Thanks!

-Jim G

On Mar 23, 2025, at 9:14 AM, AJ XOXO <ajaf...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Doug Fattic]

My Devilbiss 515 concentrator takes about 3 minutes + - to start running pure enough oxygen to properly light a flame.  I've gotten into the habit of starting the concentrator when I start fluxing the joint.  Because I'm not adjusting my routine from oxyacetylene bottles, I can easily remember to turn it on a few minutes before beginning to braze. I don't light the fuel with the oxygen off when using propane with a concentrator.  I just leave the O2 adjustment on the torch handle the same from my last braze/setting.  I just turn off the propane.  So that means that when the concentrator is, on, the oxygen is flowing through my torch. That makes it very easy to light because I turn the propane on slightly and strike at the same time and with the oxygen already flowing at the right rate I'm ready to go as soon as I match the propane flow to the oxygen flow. It is effortless for me.  It did take me some adjustment 15 years ago when I switched over from using oxyacetylene.  In fact most of the time I can turn the propane on just about the right amount so no further adjustment is necessary. 

It is true that for a beginner propane is harder to light than acetylene.  But once you get used to it, all the problems go away and lighting the torch is pretty easy except for my students that are a bit awkward with their hands and/or have a hard time remembering all the steps in sequence.  Almost nobody has any trouble by the end of class.  

Doug Fattic 

Niles, Michigan 

[AJ XOXO]

I’ve been doing the same thing.

1) turn on the Oxygen concentrator for a few min to get it going and allow more pure oxygen to flow.

2) temporarily shut off the oxygen so I can

3) quickly turn on the propane and make a few fine adjustments to get the gas regulator to show 4-5 PSI

4) by this time, right before lighting the torch with propane only, all my slowness has caused the oxygen concentrator to beep low oxygen

5) turn back on the oxygen.

6) start increasing oxygen, then propane, oxygen, etc to get the flame how I want it.

7) then start brazing…

 but I’m always wondering if my screwing around and turning off the oxygen temporarily has later decreased the percentage oxygen purity when I initially start brazing.  I guess I won’t ever know unless I get one of those inline oxygen sensor devices that I don’t know how to connect.

Anyway, I had this great idea based on something John said earlier in this thread when he encountered similar warning beeps from his own oxygen concentrator.  I found a Y connector made by Western Enterprises that will thread onto a B-sized male thread that is on some of these oxygen concentrators.  It looks like this one I’ve linked below.  My idea is to connect the oxygen portion of the welding hose to only one side of the Y valve.  The valve side of the Y connector that is unconnected, I would have open when I turn on the oxygen concentrator for a few minutes to get the machine revved up where it’s outputting more pure oxygen.  Then after a few minutes,  instead of shutting off the oxygen temporarily to quickly light a propane only flame, I could instead keep the oxygen flowing to the open side of the Y valve that isn’t connected to the torch.  This way, I can take as long as I need to futz around to light and adjust the propane flame without the oxygen concentrator doing its warning beeps.  Then, I could slowly open the portion of the Y valve that is connected to the torch and start upping and adjusting the oxygen and propane as usual.  This might make more sense by looking at this picture of this Y valve.  I’m thinking about buying this and attaching it to the oxygen concentrator.

https://www.amazon.com/Western-Enterprises-Valved-Connections-Brass/dp/B003GM4X0W

What do you think?  Good idea or overkill?

[Mark Bulgier]

Hopefully Doug F. (Godfather of O2 concentrators) will respond, but as for me I don't see any need for the Y and it seems like one more complication that could go wrong.  Just start your flame before the machine starts beeping.  A little practice and you'll get plenty fast enough at it.

Mark B in Seattle

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[tnort...@gmail.com]

I have "solved" my problem.  As I stated earlier I  was misreading the propane Guage. Now I  turn the concentrator on finish flexing and then light my torch.

At least I  can get this right!

Tom

NE Ohio 

[Doug Fattic]

As I understand it, your process is based on lighting the propane first with the oxygen off and then after it is lit, turning the oxygen on and then adjusting both flow rates?  Help me understand the reason for having the oxygen off when lighting the flame.  Is this a carryover from your oxyacetylene procedure?  When I turn off my oxypropane flame when I am done, I just turn off the propane and leave the oxygen running.  That oxygen flow helps blow out the flame.  

When I am ready to light the torch again, the oxygen has been running for a few minutes.  The concentrator won’t be beeping because the flow is going through the torch. The flame is easy to adjust because the oxygen flow rate has already been set from the past use.   All I need to do after the flame is lit, is match the propane flow rate to the oxygen.  

I’m not worried about safety using propane and a concentrator in the same way I would be with two pressurized tanks running oxyacetylene. I’ve got 2 small A size check valves on my torch handle and one B fitting flashback arrestor right after my propane regulator.  I don’t bother with a flashback arrestor on my concentrator because the bladder holding the oxygen is not under pressure.  It would reduce the flow too low if running a bigger tip. Of course, I’m not a safety expert so I might be missing something.

I seem to have trouble with enough pure oxygen to run a flame if for some reason I turn off the oxygen even for a short time.  I still have to wait a bit before I try and light the flame again.  I haven't tested this thoroughly to be sure but that is my impression and as a result I don’t try and light the flame right away if I have turned off the oxygen for some reason.

Doug Fattic

Niles, Michigan

[Duane Draper]

Thanks Doug.  What do you use to light the flame?  I use a striker and the additional turbulence from the oxygen flow blows the flame out.  I therefore turn off the oxygen for lighting.  It’s not my biggest problem in the shop but it’s a little annoying. 

 

Thanks!

Duane

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[AJ XOXO]

Hi Doug.  To answer your question about my procedure for lighting and adjusting my oxypropane flame.  Yes indeed.  My method is a direct carryover as to how I light an oxyacetylene flame.  Basically it goes like this.

1) turn on acetylene

2) hit the striker to light an acetylene only flame.

3) adjust the flow of acetylene to get rid of soot and get close to a shape on the flame I’m used to

4) then add oxygen and fine tune the oxygen flow until I get the flame with a nice and sharp cone

5) start brazing

With an oxypropane flame, I do the same steps except I light a propane only flame first, then add the oxygen next.  The problem with this is that turning on the oxygen concentrator immediately after lighting the initial flame means you only have a flame with a low percentage of oxygen in that flame because the oxygen concentrator did not run for very long before the pilot light is.

So like most people that have figured out, you need to turn on the oxygen concentrator and let it run for a few minutes to get it revved up so that it is pushing out a higher percentage of pure oxygen.  However, leaving the oxygen concentrator on for a few minutes first means that my initial striking of the flint will make an oxypropane flame…. And I find that unless I do a quick temporary oxygen shut off at the torch…. and instead, I light an initial flame composed of both oxy and propane,  well, I find that the oxygen blowing also creates a problem in that it is continually blowing out the flame.  Seems like another poster, Duane Draper, has posted something similar on this thread.  Soooooo, my solution is that Y valve thing.  But again, I’m not sure if this idea is just overkill or not.

AJ

[Doug Fattic]

AJ, as you know, my lighting procedure for propane is different from yours.  I have my oxygen already flowing through my torch when I light my flame.  In fact, I leave my oxygen settings alone (at the concentrator and torch handle) from my last use if I haven’t changed tip size.  My understanding from reading your lighting procedure description is that the oxygen is blowing out your flame so you have to leave it turned off when lighting the propane?  I’m going to suggest the obvious thing and recommend that you turn down the flow rate on your concentrator and/or don’t turn up your oxygen knob on your torch handle as much?  A very common mistake when my students are learning to braze is to turn on the propane too much with the result that too high of a flow blows out the flame.  This is especially true if one is using a non-propane specific tip that does not have either a recess at the end or is not a multi-port tip. So too high of an oxygen flow rating as well as too much propane flow can also prevent the flame from lighting. 

I remember when I got my concentrator for the 1st time many years ago. I had a hard time getting a flame to light because some setting was always blowing it out.   It helped me to have the flow rate on the concentrator only turned to about 3 instead of all the way.  I don’t know about the personality of other people’s concentrators but if I turn mine off and on again just for 15 seconds, it still takes a while for pure oxygen to flow again.  That is why I leave mine running and flowing through the torch handle when lighting the flame.  I just have to have the gas pressure from all sources (there are 4 setting - the pressure setting on the regulator, the volume flow on the concentrator and the 2 knobs on the torch handle) turned down enough so that none of them are blowing out the flame.  The bigger the tip size the easier it is to light the flame.  

Doug Fattic in Niles, Michigan

[tnort...@gmail.com]

My "new" procedure, which seems to work, is I turn on the concentrator and dial it up to 5 litres, do the flexing, then dial it down to 3 litres, barely open the propane and Bingo!

Tom

NE Ohio 

[AJ XOXO]

Doug,

Thanks!  Instead of initially lighting a propane only flame for my initial flame (pilot flame or whatever it’s called), as I commonly do for acetylene, I tried lighting a propane/oxygen flame as my initial flame.  Works great!  I don’t know why I didn’t try it that way earlier.  I suppose it was just that I was so used to lighting the acetylene gas only flame (then adjusting acetylene up to get rid of the soot) as my initial flame as a standard operating procedure that pretty much everybody does with oxy-acetylene welding.  Doing an initial propane/oxygen mixture as my initial flame allowed me to turn on the oxygen concentrator for a few minutes to get the machine revved up and cranking more pure oxygen… then, turn on the propane.  THEN, with a propane/oxygen mixture hit the striker and get the initial  flame going.

The flame was much more stable on start-up if I had the oxygen from the machine coming out at a low amount.  After I get the initial flame going then, I could adjust the propane and oxygen in small increments.  Where I was getting the flame to blow out was if I jacked up the oxygen too high too quickly, especially on startup.  But, like being the impatient person that I am, I kept trying too quickly to turn up the oxygen max blast before starting the initial flame, just so I don’t have to sit around forever waiting for the oxygen concentrator to get revved up.  Soooo, I also tried Tom’s technique, i.e. crank up the oxygen concentrator to max output just to get the machine revved up so that it is pushing more pure oxygen… then, when I think the machine has gone for a few minutes, I temporarily lower oxygen output pressure from the machine so I can quickly turn on the propane, and light the initial flame.  After that, I slowly start the process of increasing and adjusting both the propane and oxygen.  Thanks Tom!  That cranking up the oxygen, and then temporarily lowering it works great!

I really need to get one of those in inline oxygen concentration measuring devices so I can figure out how long I need to run the oxygen concentrator before lighting my pilot flame.  Right now, I’m just guessing and waiting like 5 minutes.  If I had one of those inline oxygen measuring device, maybe I wouldn’t have to wait so long.  I’m just waiting 5 minutes based on a guesstimate that others are saying you only have to wait a couple minutes.