Religion
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Keith Henson
Aug 6, 2024, 7:58:44 PMAug 6
to ExI chat list, extro...@googlegroups.com, The Important Questions
The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I
make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war.
Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom
that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect
someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This
brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion
since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious
memes.
This classification does not help with the question of why humans have
(or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious
memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in
the Stone Age.
Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes.
Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think
genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious
memes.
Keith
make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war.
Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom
that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect
someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This
brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion
since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious
memes.
This classification does not help with the question of why humans have
(or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious
memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in
the Stone Age.
Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes.
Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think
genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious
memes.
Keith
Dylan Distasio
Aug 6, 2024, 8:16:20 PMAug 6
to extro...@googlegroups.com, ExI chat list, the-importa...@googlegroups.com
I don't wanna be the guy who says that to someone with a hammer everything looks like...but...
I think xenophobia is downstream of religion if we are talking about them together (not saying all xenophobia is caused by religion though), and religion exists (and persists) because it is quite a terrible prospect for a self conscious, intelligent organism to contemplate their mortality. I would suggest Unamuno's The Tragic Sense of Life as a guidepost in explaining why it exists and the tension between Faith and Reason.
A great deal of life on this planet is suffering, and without the hope of an afterlife the outlook is pretty bleak. I say this as an atheist. Religious belief systems inspire hope which leads to greater reproduction in that group.
There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining and controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument above.
Memento mori.
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Keith Henson
Aug 6, 2024, 9:10:58 PMAug 6
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On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 5:16 PM Dylan Distasio <inte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I don't wanna be the guy who says that to someone with a hammer everything looks like...but...
I think most of you have seen my (so far) unpublished paper
>
> I don't wanna be the guy who says that to someone with a hammer everything looks like...but...
Genetic Selection for War in Prehistoric Human Populations
Authors: H. Keith Henson,* Arel Lucas Email: hkeith...@gmail.com,
are...@gmail.com
Abstract: Behavior, including human behavior related to war, is no
less subject to Darwinian selection than physical traits. Behavior
results from physical brain modules constructed by genes and
environmental input. The environmental detection and operation of
behavioral switches leading to wars are also under evolutionary
selection. War behavior in the environment of evolutionary adaptedness
(EEA) was under positive selection when the alternative (starvation)
was worse than war. The model is then applied in an attempt to
explain the behavioral difference between chimpanzees and bonobos with
additional thoughts on the KhoeSan People of Southern Africa.
It has a math model of how psychological traits for war were selected.
(War is shown to be better for genes when the alternative is worse.)
If you want a copy, ask.
> I think xenophobia is downstream of religion if we are talking about them together (not saying all xenophobia is caused by religion though), and religion exists (and persists) because it is quite a terrible prospect for a self conscious, intelligent organism to contemplate their mortality. I would suggest Unamuno's The Tragic Sense of Life as a guidepost in explaining why it exists and the tension between Faith and Reason.
the circulation of xenophobic memes after the detection of a bleak
(resource short) future. This is fairly obvious. Somewhat more
speculative is that the psychological mechanism that supports gaining
and holding xenophobic memes about the tribe to be attacked is also
the mechanism behind gaining and holding religious memes
> A great deal of life on this planet is suffering, and without the hope of an afterlife the outlook is pretty bleak. I say this as an atheist.
> Religious belief systems inspire hope which leads to greater reproduction in that group.
reproduction for groups with a religion than without, especially back
when most of the selection was going on, say 50,000 years ago.
> There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining and controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument above.
differential survival of genes in the war paper.
Keith
Dylan Distasio
Aug 6, 2024, 9:49:09 PMAug 6
to extro...@googlegroups.com, ExI chat list
On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 9:10 PM Keith Henson <hkeith...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 5:16 PM Dylan Distasio <inte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I don't wanna be the guy who says that to someone with a hammer everything looks like...but...
I think most of you have seen my (so far) unpublished paper
Genetic Selection for War in Prehistoric Human Populations
Authors: H. Keith Henson,* Arel Lucas Email: hkeith...@gmail.com,
are...@gmail.com
Abstract: Behavior, including human behavior related to war, is no
less subject to Darwinian selection than physical traits. Behavior
results from physical brain modules constructed by genes and
environmental input. The environmental detection and operation of
behavioral switches leading to wars are also under evolutionary
selection. War behavior in the environment of evolutionary adaptedness
(EEA) was under positive selection when the alternative (starvation)
was worse than war. The model is then applied in an attempt to
explain the behavioral difference between chimpanzees and bonobos with
additional thoughts on the KhoeSan People of Southern Africa.
It has a math model of how psychological traits for war were selected.
(War is shown to be better for genes when the alternative is worse.)
In fairness, I have not done a deep dive on your paper, but I will try to. I apologize if I am misconstruing things from the abstract alone, but I am getting Skinner vibes here, and I don't think we live in Skinner box. Again, my interpretation may be off though as I haven't read it yet despite being familiar with your general assertions on list.
If you want a copy, ask.
Yes, if you don't mind emailing me it separately, that would be appreciated.
> I think xenophobia is downstream of religion if we are talking about them together (not saying all xenophobia is caused by religion though), and religion exists (and persists) because it is quite a terrible prospect for a self conscious, intelligent organism to contemplate their mortality. I would suggest Unamuno's The Tragic Sense of Life as a guidepost in explaining why it exists and the tension between Faith and Reason.
Somewhat more
speculative is that the psychological mechanism that supports gaining
and holding xenophobic memes about the tribe to be attacked is also
the mechanism behind gaining and holding religious memes
I'm not sold on this, but maybe I will have a different opinion after reading the paper.
> A great deal of life on this planet is suffering, and without the hope of an afterlife the outlook is pretty bleak. I say this as an atheist.
Hmm. Are you signed up for cryonics?
Not yet. I don't think there is anything to lose other than money to do so, and may at some point, but I consider the odds of someone successfully resurrecting a copy of me in the future to be extremely low for multiple reasons. If you have the money and optimism, it beats the alternative though.
> Religious belief systems inspire hope which leads to greater reproduction in that group.
This I doubt. I would be interested in a model that shows more
reproduction for groups with a religion than without, especially back
when most of the selection was going on, say 50,000 years ago.
I'm not going to include a model. I am just going to leave this here. Now I will grant in the past and to a lesser extent present, there are likely confounding variables like family agriculture needing more bodies / high infant mortality rates, but I'm not sure why you immediately doubt it. I don't need a model to come up with the hypothesis that it is a positive influence on reproduction, and again, I can't remove for confounding variables (and I do believe they are contributing to some degree as I believe socioeconomic levels and cost of raising a child are two off the top of my head), but secular populations have the lowest reproduction rates on the planet.
I don't know if you're going to have bones to pick with this particular chart, but I can tell you the numbers are very clear that one particularly fervent religion has the highest reproduction rate currently.
> There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining and controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument above.
See if you can generate a numeric model such as I did for the
differential survival of genes in the war paper.
This won't be happening because I wouldn't pretend to be able to without at the very least spending a great deal of time and brain capacity, and even then, doubt I could, but I would point out that I think you are falling into the same trap that many practioners of the Dismal Science fall into which is assuming you can explain human behaviors with a rational, extremely quantitative model. I appreciate your efforts even if I remain skeptical.
Will Steinberg
Aug 6, 2024, 9:53:53 PMAug 6
to extro...@googlegroups.com
The point of religious is that the originators of religious speak deep truths about nature and human nature.
Take for example monotheism, some of the first thought EVER to tell people that everything is actually one thing.
Simulation theory? Religion has had that for millennia.
Ethics and morals? Came from religion.
Curiosity about the natural world? Religion.
Deep understanding about duality, which our universe functions on—charge, spin, push/pull? Chinese spiritual philosphers came up with it 3000+ years ago.
Science used to be called natural philosophy and nearly all the physics geniuses in history believed in a god. That’s not just a coincidence or a product of the times. It’s about loving and understanding the underlying order and patterns of the universe. THAT is why religion is useful. But the goodness and usefulness of individual religions decreases monotonically from their inception. They are passed down and diluted by people who truly don’t “get it” and they become dogmatic power structures. But the momentum and power they have is based on the strength of the initial prophetic truths.
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Dylan Distasio
Aug 6, 2024, 9:57:55 PMAug 6
to extro...@googlegroups.com
My original reply got caught in the moderator queue because I included a chart directly, so reposting with a link to it instead...
Keith Henson
Aug 7, 2024, 1:38:47 PMAug 7
to extro...@googlegroups.com, ExI chat list, The Important Questions
"assuming you can explain human behaviors with a rational, extremely
quantitative model. "
Let me step back a bit and mention another human trait that mystifies
quantitative model. "
people in modern times.
https://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding
Over a very long time, perhaps the last 200,000 years, women were
captured from one tribe to another perhaps ten percent per generation.
They either adjusted (bonded) to their new situation in which case
they became our ancestors or they did not, in which case they were
killed. This long term selection results in the behaviour we see in
capture cases such as Patty Hearst and Elizabeth Smart.
It is possible that the deeply diverged San people don't have this trait.
According to evolutionary psychology, all behavior is either the
result of selection or a side effect of something that was selected.
Drug addiction behavior is an example of an obvious side effect.
The very widespread behavior to be infected with what we call a
religion is (by EP standards) one or the other.
I make a case that susceptibility to religious memes is a side effect
of selection for war. The alternative is that being susceptible to
infection by religious memes was selected in the past, that is that
those who were susceptible left more children.
Keith
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Keith Henson
Aug 8, 2024, 10:55:20 AMAug 8
to ExI chat list, extro...@googlegroups.com, e...@disroot.org, The Important Questions
The last couple of posts have invoked mysticism. OK, how did this
human trait evolve? You have only direct selection of the trait or as
a side effect of something else that was selected.
Keith
On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 1:54 AM efc--- via extropy-chat
<extrop...@lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 4:33 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat
> > <extrop...@lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a ‘prophet’ type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or society.
> >
> > Two recent US religions originated from women who had temporal lobe
> > brain damage.
>
> Which ones? Would be an interesting read.
>
> >> This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word.
> >
> > As you well know, it is usually nonsense, not truth. So why are human
> > minds susceptible to this class of memes?
>
> That's why I think about religion as a mystic or transcendent "core"
> that only applies to a small "elite" and a broader control system. It
> could be that the ball is set in motion by the core, but this is then
> captured by more "worldly" people who see it as an excellent way for
> control.
>
> > Truth does not seem to be much involved. Consider how many people
>
> I think that perhaps we can learn something from the deep, meaningful
> experiences that some people have through religion, and maybe extract,
> and apply it in a non-religious way to other people to enrich and deepen
> the meaning of their lives.
>
>
> > were deeply affected by the QAnon bs. One of them was so affected
> > that he went there armed and insisted on being let into the (non
> > existent) basement. I think he got 5 years in jail. It was an
> > amazing story.
> >
> > Keith
> >
> > PS I once spent considerable time on a picket talking to a
> > scientologist. He noted that the members of this cult were subject to
> > scam after scam, particularly MLM scams. I suspect this is due to a
> > genetic trait for gullibility, i.e., you are born with it, though I
> > have speculated that people could be trained to be resistant to cults
> > and other scams. I would like to see someone investigate the genetic
> > backgrounds of cult members. It seems to me that people with Mormon
> > family backgrounds are over represented in scientology, but I don't
> > have numbers. (Mormons definitely sorted out the gullible.)
> >
> >
> >> I can’t just say that a magic unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement—maybe a small cult of idiots. But powerful religions are based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth “everything looks different but it’s actually all one thing”. Animism before that was based on the simple truth “different natural objects [gods] are different and have consistent patterns/behavior”.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extrop...@lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>> explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism
> >>> between religion and science. Religion feels threatened.
> >>>
> >>> I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and
> >>> ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation.
> >>>
> >>> But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which
> >>> I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly
> >>> strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety
> >>> and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so
> >>> perhaps not so relevant for the original question.
> >>> >_______________________________________________
> >>> extropy-chat mailing list
> >>> extrop...@lists.extropy.org
> >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extrop...@lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extrop...@lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extrop...@lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
human trait evolve? You have only direct selection of the trait or as
a side effect of something else that was selected.
Keith
On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 1:54 AM efc--- via extropy-chat
<extrop...@lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 4:33 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat
> > <extrop...@lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a ‘prophet’ type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or society.
> >
> > Two recent US religions originated from women who had temporal lobe
> > brain damage.
>
> Which ones? Would be an interesting read.
>
> >> This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word.
> >
> > As you well know, it is usually nonsense, not truth. So why are human
> > minds susceptible to this class of memes?
>
> That's why I think about religion as a mystic or transcendent "core"
> that only applies to a small "elite" and a broader control system. It
> could be that the ball is set in motion by the core, but this is then
> captured by more "worldly" people who see it as an excellent way for
> control.
>
> > Truth does not seem to be much involved. Consider how many people
>
> I think that perhaps we can learn something from the deep, meaningful
> experiences that some people have through religion, and maybe extract,
> and apply it in a non-religious way to other people to enrich and deepen
> the meaning of their lives.
>
>
> > were deeply affected by the QAnon bs. One of them was so affected
> > that he went there armed and insisted on being let into the (non
> > existent) basement. I think he got 5 years in jail. It was an
> > amazing story.
> >
> > Keith
> >
> > PS I once spent considerable time on a picket talking to a
> > scientologist. He noted that the members of this cult were subject to
> > scam after scam, particularly MLM scams. I suspect this is due to a
> > genetic trait for gullibility, i.e., you are born with it, though I
> > have speculated that people could be trained to be resistant to cults
> > and other scams. I would like to see someone investigate the genetic
> > backgrounds of cult members. It seems to me that people with Mormon
> > family backgrounds are over represented in scientology, but I don't
> > have numbers. (Mormons definitely sorted out the gullible.)
> >
> >
> >> I can’t just say that a magic unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement—maybe a small cult of idiots. But powerful religions are based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth “everything looks different but it’s actually all one thing”. Animism before that was based on the simple truth “different natural objects [gods] are different and have consistent patterns/behavior”.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extrop...@lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining and
> >>> > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument above.
> >>>
> >>> I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining and
> >>> > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument above.
> >>>
> >>> explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism
> >>> between religion and science. Religion feels threatened.
> >>>
> >>> I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and
> >>> ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation.
> >>>
> >>> But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which
> >>> I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly
> >>> strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety
> >>> and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so
> >>> perhaps not so relevant for the original question.
> >>> extropy-chat mailing list
> >>> extrop...@lists.extropy.org
> >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extrop...@lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extrop...@lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extrop...@lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
Lawrence Crowell
Aug 8, 2024, 11:13:12 AMAug 8
to extropolis
I think religion stems from the evolution of language. The two likely evolutionary purposes for the evolution of language were for courtship and to communicate down generations stories relating the complex relationships between living creatures. These were told in anthropomorphized narratives. The world was then defined by spirits and demiurges in stories, think of campfire storytelling, and this taught generations about the natural world. In the last 7 to 10 thousand years these systems were eclipsed as spirits, totems and gods got merged into bigger gods and then eventually one God.
LC
John Clark
Aug 8, 2024, 11:32:43 AMAug 8
to extro...@googlegroups.com, ExI chat list, e...@disroot.org, The Important Questions
On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 10:55 AM Keith Henson <hkeith...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The last couple of posts have invoked mysticism. OK, how did this
human trait evolve?
That is a very good question! I know for a fact that natural selection has managed to produce consciousness at least once because I am conscious, but if consciousness is not a side effect of intelligence then how in the world could that have happened?
John K Clark
John Clark
Aug 8, 2024, 12:40:05 PMAug 8
to extro...@googlegroups.com
> The point of religious is that the originators of religious speak deep truths about nature
Curiosity about the natural world? Religion.
I strongly disagree, religion stifles curiosity and cuts off debate:
Question: how did life originally come into existence?
Religious Answer: God made it.
Question: What method did god use to make it?
Religious Answer: You are not allowed to ask that question.
Question: What caused God to come into existence?
Religious Answer: You are not allowed to ask that question.
> Take for example monotheism, some of the first thought EVER to tell people that everything is actually one thing.
Yes religion preaches that, but what they preach simply isn't true because everything is NOT just one thing, not unless the meaning of the word "one" is distorted beyond all recognition. Take for example Einstein's most famous equation E=MC^2, it does not mean that matter and energy are the same thing because the two things clearly have different properties, for example one has mass and the other does not. E=MC^2 means that one thing can be turned into the other, but it is not easy to do. That's why the Manhattan Project was such a monumental undertaking.
> Ethics and morals? Came from religion.
Nope. Christian, Jewish and Islamic theologians all agree that God is good so, if the word is to have any meaning, then the concepts of good and evil MUST exist independently of God and He is supposed to obey the rules just like everybody else is supposed to do. Except that Yahweh never stuck to the rules, in fact he is the most unpleasant character in all of fiction. If you have read the Bible, and I'm embarrassed to admit that I have because as a kid I was forced to endure 12 years of formal religious education, then you'll find that Yahweh makes Voldemort look like Mr. Goody Two Shoes.
> Science used to be called natural philosophy and nearly all the physics geniuses in history believed in a god.
Before about 1800 that was largely true, although Henry Cavendish, the greatest 18th century experimental physicist, was probably an atheist or agnostic.
> That’s not just a coincidence or a product of the times.
It must be a product of the times because in a poll taken in 1996, 95% of the members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the publishers of the Journal Science, expressed disbelief or strong doubt in the existence of God.
John K Clark
William Flynn Wallace
Aug 9, 2024, 3:27:46 PMAug 9
to extro...@googlegroups.com
Humans have a great ability to perceive correlations among and between things and there does not have to be any cause and effect there. So some will be true and some will be superstitions. Now just where and how did metaphysics get started? This is the mystery to me: how did we ever think of things that have no physical basis that we know of? Or a different kind of physical basis? bill w
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Keith Henson
Aug 9, 2024, 3:57:35 PMAug 9
to extro...@googlegroups.com, ExI chat list
On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 12:27 PM William Flynn Wallace
<fooz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Humans have a great ability to perceive correlations among and between things and there does not have to be any cause and effect there.
This is not hard to understand in gene selection terms. When the cost
<fooz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Humans have a great ability to perceive correlations among and between things and there does not have to be any cause and effect there.
is high for failing to make the correct connection and the cost is low
for being wrong, a trait for jumping to conclusions will be selected.
> So some will be true and some will be superstitions. Now just where and how did metaphysics get started?
even fatal memes, fall out of this new ecosystem of communicating
minds.
Charles Sheffield once wrote an SF story that included a bit about
some aliens who were infected with fatal memes. They could only exist
in small groups or a meme would arise in the group and wipe them out.
> This is the mystery to me: how did we ever think of things that have no physical basis that we know of? Or a different kind of physical basis? bill w
Kieth
Keith Henson
Aug 9, 2024, 5:13:27 PMAug 9
to ExI chat list, extro...@googlegroups.com, Dylan Distasio
On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 1:34 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat
<extrop...@lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Quick bone to pick on Conficianism...I used to think the same thing, but his commentaries on the I Ching had an extremely heavy and important influence on its current incarnation, and should not be discounted on the mysticism side.
I rate the I Ching in the same class as astrology.
But the question is still, why do some memes do well in inecting human
minds/brains.
Keith
> I wasn't aware of this until I went pretty deeply on the I Ching and the various flavors of it, including a Daoist one. As an aside, I have found the I Ching extremely valuable even as an atheist, and would recommend exploring it to anyone with even a passing curiosity about it.
>
> Philip K. Dick was also influenced heavily by it.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 1:12 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <extrop...@lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> Well, I think western philosophy is widely spiritual, it's just not an organized religion, though very many philosophers have been religious.
>>
>> Daoism had its prophet in Laozi. Confucianism to me is not mystic, it's mostly an oeconomic system with already-extant chinese nature religion attached.
>>
>> I think nature religions are not from prophets but from small mystical experiences that come from a totally different way of thinking. When you're completely immersed in nature, you think with nature. This can happen to anyone experiencing natural glory, but when it is constant, the mysticism piles up
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 4:50 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extrop...@lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> experience. I was thinking about mentioning it, but then I thought, what
>>> about if we go further back? As you say, spirits, animism etc. Do you
>>> still think those come from mystic experiences, or from accidents like "I
>>> pet this rock, and I caught 2 fish today, why is that?".
>>>
>>> I think it is very uncontroversial to say that "modern" religions tend to
>>> come from mysticism, but what about nature religions? Then you have
>>> of course the grey areas of Daoism and Confucianism, which to me (but I'm
>>> definitely not an expert on religion) seem to sit uncomfortably in the
>>> line between philosophy and religion (daoism). I could accept that
>>> Confucianism is leaning more towards philosophy, but I think they have
>>> some kind of ancestor worship, don't they?
<extrop...@lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Quick bone to pick on Conficianism...I used to think the same thing, but his commentaries on the I Ching had an extremely heavy and important influence on its current incarnation, and should not be discounted on the mysticism side.
I rate the I Ching in the same class as astrology.
But the question is still, why do some memes do well in inecting human
minds/brains.
Keith
> I wasn't aware of this until I went pretty deeply on the I Ching and the various flavors of it, including a Daoist one. As an aside, I have found the I Ching extremely valuable even as an atheist, and would recommend exploring it to anyone with even a passing curiosity about it.
>
> Philip K. Dick was also influenced heavily by it.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 1:12 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <extrop...@lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> Well, I think western philosophy is widely spiritual, it's just not an organized religion, though very many philosophers have been religious.
>>
>> Daoism had its prophet in Laozi. Confucianism to me is not mystic, it's mostly an oeconomic system with already-extant chinese nature religion attached.
>>
>> I think nature religions are not from prophets but from small mystical experiences that come from a totally different way of thinking. When you're completely immersed in nature, you think with nature. This can happen to anyone experiencing natural glory, but when it is constant, the mysticism piles up
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 4:50 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extrop...@lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote:
>>>
>>> > Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a ‘prophet’ type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or
>>> > society. This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word. I can’t just say that a magic
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote:
>>>
>>> > Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a ‘prophet’ type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or
>>> > unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement—maybe a small cult of idiots. But powerful religions are
>>> > based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth “everything looks different but
>>> > it’s actually all one thing”. Animism before that was based on the simple truth “different natural objects [gods] are different and
>>> > have consistent patterns/behavior”.
>>>
>>> Mysticism I think fits nicely with monotheism due to its "unifying"
>>> > based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth “everything looks different but
>>> > it’s actually all one thing”. Animism before that was based on the simple truth “different natural objects [gods] are different and
>>> > have consistent patterns/behavior”.
>>>
>>> experience. I was thinking about mentioning it, but then I thought, what
>>> about if we go further back? As you say, spirits, animism etc. Do you
>>> still think those come from mystic experiences, or from accidents like "I
>>> pet this rock, and I caught 2 fish today, why is that?".
>>>
>>> I think it is very uncontroversial to say that "modern" religions tend to
>>> come from mysticism, but what about nature religions? Then you have
>>> of course the grey areas of Daoism and Confucianism, which to me (but I'm
>>> definitely not an expert on religion) seem to sit uncomfortably in the
>>> line between philosophy and religion (daoism). I could accept that
>>> Confucianism is leaning more towards philosophy, but I think they have
>>> some kind of ancestor worship, don't they?
>>>
>>> > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extrop...@lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote:
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extrop...@lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining
>>> > and
>>> > > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument
>>> > above.
>>> >
>>> > and
>>> > > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument
>>> > above.
>>> >
>>> > I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and
>>> > explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism
>>> > between religion and science. Religion feels threatened.
>>> >
>>> > I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and
>>> > ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation.
>>> >
>>> > But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which
>>> > I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly
>>> > strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety
>>> > and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so
>>> > perhaps not so relevant for the original question.
>>> >
>>> > explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism
>>> > between religion and science. Religion feels threatened.
>>> >
>>> > I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and
>>> > ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation.
>>> >
>>> > But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which
>>> > I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly
>>> > strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety
>>> > and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so
>>> > perhaps not so relevant for the original question.
>>> >
Will Steinberg
Aug 9, 2024, 5:28:27 PMAug 9
to extro...@googlegroups.com
Color me surprised that the guy who doesn’t understand spirituality doesn’t like oracles
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB7LHUR86wPnpN1V3JKnfT052iTzYcRf4O6QiwFUsHeaww%40mail.gmail.com.
John Clark
Aug 10, 2024, 8:16:18 AMAug 10
to extro...@googlegroups.com
On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 9:57 PM Dylan Distasio <inte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> secular populations have the lowest reproduction rates on the planet. [....] the numbers are very clear that one particularly fervent religion has the highest reproduction rate currently.
John K Clark
Keith Henson
Aug 10, 2024, 12:45:16 PMAug 10
to ExI chat list, extro...@googlegroups.com, The Important Questions, e...@disroot.org
On Sat, Aug 10, 2024 at 2:10 AM efc--- via extropy-chat
<extrop...@lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 9 Aug 2024, Keith Henson wrote:
>
snip
> > Hmm. I know of an issue perhaps. Cheap/excess renewable energy can
> > be used to heat coal in steam and make low-cost hydrogen. The
> > byproduct CO2 can be sequestered.
>
> Well, if it is revolutionary, possible to commercialize and backed by some
> university, it might be possible. But the green field is very busy and
> many are playing on it.
Not revolutionary, the process was used to make gas in the early days
of the Industrial Revolution. The new part is from using excess
renewable power to heat the coal in steam.
A ton of coal ($20 at the mine mouth) makes .4 tons of hydrogen and
releases no CO2. Is there a market for $50/ton hydrogen?
> > But it would probably not make the kind of splash you could get out of
> > alien structures causing the light dips at Tabby's Star.
>
> If this was confirmed with hard evidence from a big name, I think this
> would be a no-brainer. The challenge though, is to connect it with my
> customers products and services. ;)
You know of the habitable zone around stars. There is also the
computational zone, which is much further out, in the solar system
(low temperature, faster, lower error computation). If you want a lot
of computation, the best place seems to be where the Tabby's Star
aliens apparently put a data center more than 400 times the area of
the Earth. No idea of who this might be sold to.,
> My most recent success was bouncing against Russian IT attacks arguing
> that security needs to be solved in a decentralized fashion, by also
> educating the population.
>
> I actually received a reply from the CEO of a medium sized IT-security
> consulting company who said (publucly) that my article was rubbish, and
> that the problem would be solved by trusting our brightest and the best in
> the form of our elected politicians and CEOs and business leaders.
>
> I always wondered if he had big public consulting contracts. ;)
The trouble is that code is expensive to right but nearly zero to
reproduce. This makes operations like CroudStrike profitable where 30
or 40 companies would not be.
I don't have a solution.
Keith
> > Keith
<extrop...@lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 9 Aug 2024, Keith Henson wrote:
>
snip
> > Hmm. I know of an issue perhaps. Cheap/excess renewable energy can
> > be used to heat coal in steam and make low-cost hydrogen. The
> > byproduct CO2 can be sequestered.
>
> Well, if it is revolutionary, possible to commercialize and backed by some
> university, it might be possible. But the green field is very busy and
> many are playing on it.
Not revolutionary, the process was used to make gas in the early days
of the Industrial Revolution. The new part is from using excess
renewable power to heat the coal in steam.
A ton of coal ($20 at the mine mouth) makes .4 tons of hydrogen and
releases no CO2. Is there a market for $50/ton hydrogen?
> > But it would probably not make the kind of splash you could get out of
> > alien structures causing the light dips at Tabby's Star.
>
> If this was confirmed with hard evidence from a big name, I think this
> would be a no-brainer. The challenge though, is to connect it with my
> customers products and services. ;)
You know of the habitable zone around stars. There is also the
computational zone, which is much further out, in the solar system
(low temperature, faster, lower error computation). If you want a lot
of computation, the best place seems to be where the Tabby's Star
aliens apparently put a data center more than 400 times the area of
the Earth. No idea of who this might be sold to.,
> My most recent success was bouncing against Russian IT attacks arguing
> that security needs to be solved in a decentralized fashion, by also
> educating the population.
>
> I actually received a reply from the CEO of a medium sized IT-security
> consulting company who said (publucly) that my article was rubbish, and
> that the problem would be solved by trusting our brightest and the best in
> the form of our elected politicians and CEOs and business leaders.
>
> I always wondered if he had big public consulting contracts. ;)
The trouble is that code is expensive to right but nearly zero to
reproduce. This makes operations like CroudStrike profitable where 30
or 40 companies would not be.
I don't have a solution.
Keith
> > Keith
Keith Henson
Aug 12, 2024, 1:02:52 AMAug 12
to ExI chat list, extro...@googlegroups.com, The Important Questions, BillK, Robert Cialdini
On Sun, Aug 11, 2024 at 2:12 PM BillK via extropy-chat
<extrop...@lists.extropy.org> wrote:
snip
> As you say, in humans, your life depended on being a member of your tribe.
> Lone wolves had a hard time surviving. Though this is less significant
> in modern society.
It is worth remembering that humans are *social* primates.
> The current problems in the US and Europe seem to be because these
> countries have split into two major tribes with very different
> cultural beliefs. (Plus several minor groups as well). This can't be
> due to genetics, as they all have inherited similar tribal genetics.
> It must be due to different culture or memes that have taken root in
> the different groups.
That is correct. But there is an underlying factor here. Some parts
of the country are doing ok, and the majority of the people are
reasonably satisfied with the way things are going. Other parts are
not so happy and see a bleak future. These are currently associated
with the political parties.
In the tribal days, a bleak future was normally the signal to cut the
population back either by attacking neighbors or some subgroup of your
tribe. We still have the genes for the psychological traits to start
wars because the math works out that genes do better going to war than
they do starving. One of those psychological traits is to spread
xenophobic memes about either neighbors or some subgroup.
Incidentally, it is not needed for the situation to get absolutely
bad, but just relatively worse than it was to set off problems..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cialdini has a good deal to say
about this though he credits someone else. His major book is easy to
recast into evolutionary psychology terms. Long as I have mentioned
him, will cc this post to him
> I don't see how these different cultures can be resolved.
> Perhaps by gradual changes over generations.
Memes can come and go much faster than genes. Remember this whole
MAGA/Trump business started not that many years ago.
As an example, the IRA went out of business as the economy (income per
capita) picked up when the Irish women cut the number of kids to
replacement.
In any case, technological progress will change things beyond belief
in far less than a generation.
Keith
Keith
> BillK
<extrop...@lists.extropy.org> wrote:
snip
> As you say, in humans, your life depended on being a member of your tribe.
> Lone wolves had a hard time surviving. Though this is less significant
> in modern society.
It is worth remembering that humans are *social* primates.
> The current problems in the US and Europe seem to be because these
> countries have split into two major tribes with very different
> cultural beliefs. (Plus several minor groups as well). This can't be
> due to genetics, as they all have inherited similar tribal genetics.
> It must be due to different culture or memes that have taken root in
> the different groups.
That is correct. But there is an underlying factor here. Some parts
of the country are doing ok, and the majority of the people are
reasonably satisfied with the way things are going. Other parts are
not so happy and see a bleak future. These are currently associated
with the political parties.
In the tribal days, a bleak future was normally the signal to cut the
population back either by attacking neighbors or some subgroup of your
tribe. We still have the genes for the psychological traits to start
wars because the math works out that genes do better going to war than
they do starving. One of those psychological traits is to spread
xenophobic memes about either neighbors or some subgroup.
Incidentally, it is not needed for the situation to get absolutely
bad, but just relatively worse than it was to set off problems..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cialdini has a good deal to say
about this though he credits someone else. His major book is easy to
recast into evolutionary psychology terms. Long as I have mentioned
him, will cc this post to him
> I don't see how these different cultures can be resolved.
> Perhaps by gradual changes over generations.
Memes can come and go much faster than genes. Remember this whole
MAGA/Trump business started not that many years ago.
As an example, the IRA went out of business as the economy (income per
capita) picked up when the Irish women cut the number of kids to
replacement.
In any case, technological progress will change things beyond belief
in far less than a generation.
Keith
Keith
> BillK
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