libertarians

[William Flynn Wallace]

We, or at least most of us, are libertarians.  Here's a thought:

What freedoms do we not have that we should have or need to have?     bill w

[John Clark]

On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 2:58 PM William Flynn Wallace <fooz...@gmail.com> wrote:

> We, or at least most of us, are libertarians. 

I once called myself a libertarian but the meaning of the word has changed so radically that I can't do that anymore.  These days most "libertarians" are just Trump zombies.

> What freedoms do we not have that we should have or need to have?

The freedom to inject any chemical we wish into our bodies, including cyanide. 

John K Clark 

 

[Giulio Prisco]

On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 9:13 PM John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 2:58 PM William Flynn Wallace <fooz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > We, or at least most of us, are libertarians.
>
>
> I once called myself a libertarian but the meaning of the word has changed so radically that I can't do that anymore. These days most "libertarians" are just Trump zombies.
>

I once did NOT call myself a libertarian because I didn't like the
excessive emphasis on property and guns. But now I do call myself a
libertarian, or at least a libertarian at heart, because today's
"culture" in the West is becoming anti-libertarian and this must be
stopped. I'm a libertarian in the true sense of the word: one who
thinks that one should be free to think/speak/do whatever the fuck he
likes as long as he doesn't interfere with the freedom of others to do
the same. And by the way, I prefer Trump to cancel culture.

>> > What freedoms do we not have that we should have or need to have?
>
>
> The freedom to inject any chemical we wish into our bodies, including cyanide.
>
> John K Clark
>
>

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[Lawrence Crowell]

On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 1:58 PM William Flynn Wallace <fooz...@gmail.com> wrote:

We, or at least most of us, are libertarians.  Here's a thought:

What freedoms do we not have that we should have or need to have?     bill w

I toyed with the libertarian idea back in college, but dropped it. I see libertarianism as fascism in an evening gown; it looks nice until you get close.

LC

 

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[John Clark]

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 5:20 AM Giulio Prisco <giu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I once did NOT call myself a libertarian because I didn't like the excessive emphasis on property and guns.

Because I'm a material being I like the emphasis on property, but I was never a big fan of guns. These days the only part of the US Constitution "libertarians" give a shit about is the second amendment; forget about torture and the lack of freedom of the press, for them 1984 would be a paradise if people were just allowed to keep their guns.  

>  I prefer Trump to cancel culture.

I just don't understand how you can say that!. Yes extreme wokeness is stupid and it can be annoying but it's not catastrophic, however handing the keys to a nuclear missile submarine over to a fascist imbecile who broke the 250 year tradition of a peaceful transfer of power by staging an unsuccessful coup d'état would be.  And Trump is also the most anti-libertarian president in American history; women should not have the right to have control of their own bodies, the freedom of the press should be limited so that the president can sue reporters if they say something he doesn't like, the federal government should stop the states from legalizing marijuana, laws should be strengthened to stop people from reading pornography....

 > now I do call myself a libertarian, or at least a libertarian at heart, because today's"culture" in the West is becoming anti-libertarian and this must be stopped.

For nearly 8 years I've been asking, almost begging, people who called themselves libertarians to explain to me how they can feel any emotion other than contempt or revulsion for a creature like Donald Trump, but I never received an answer that contained even a fragment of rationality. In fact I was kicked off the Extropian List for asking that question too often. 

> I'm a libertarian in the true sense of the word: one whothinks that one should be free to think/speak/do whatever the fuck he likes as long as he doesn't interfere with the freedom of others to do the same.

I agree completely. But you expect that if Trump is back in the White House it will help to achieve that noble goal ?!!   

John K Clark

[John Clark]

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 5:33 AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I toyed with the libertarian idea back in college, but dropped it. I see libertarianism as fascism in an evening gown; it looks nice until you get close.

That's certainly true of the clowns that are members of the Libertarian Party. The Libertarian Party is the principal reason I can no longer call myself a libertarian, I don't want to be confused with those bozos. 

John K Clark

 

[William Flynn Wallace]

Everyone I told that I am a liberal libertarian has looked at me as if I were crazy.  They just know of the right wing group.   bill w

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[Keith Henson]

Two main groups called themselves libertarians (lowercase). The
political Libertarians were so fractious they could not get along with
each other or anyone else.

Anyway, the two groups were known as the Space Cadets, people who got
their political philosophy from Heinlein, and the Ranroids, followers
of Ayn Rand.

One day the religious-like intense attraction of Rand might be
understood. 13-year-old boys seem to be particularly affected, some of
them never recovering. Speculation on this included the idea that
boys of that age are selfish and that Rand's objectivism glorifies
selfishness. Rand's view of the world is in opposition to
evolutionary psychology, which makes the case that we should value
others because of shared genes.

The Space Cadets are easier to get along with.

While the early extropians leaned libertarian, most of them were easy
going about it. Because so many of the early L5 Society members were
Heinlein fans, that organization leaned libertarian as well.

Keith

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[Giulio Prisco]

On 2023. Aug 16., Wed at 17:56, John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 5:20 AM Giulio Prisco <giu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I once did NOT call myself a libertarian because I didn't like the excessive emphasis on property and guns.

Because I'm a material being I like the emphasis on property, but I was never a big fan of guns. These days the only part of the US Constitution "libertarians" give a shit about is the second amendment; forget about torture and the lack of freedom of the press, for them 1984 would be a paradise if people were just allowed to keep their guns.  

>  I prefer Trump to cancel culture.

I just don't understand how you can say that!. Yes extreme wokeness is stupid and it can be annoying but it's not catastrophic, however handing the keys to a nuclear missile submarine over to a fascist imbecile who broke the 250 year tradition of a peaceful transfer of power by staging an unsuccessful coup d'état would be.  And Trump is also the most anti-libertarian president in American history; women should not have the right to have control of their own bodies, the freedom of the press should be limited so that the president can sue reporters if they say something he doesn't like, the federal government should stop the states from legalizing marijuana, laws should be strengthened to stop people from reading pornography....

I didn’t say that I like Trump. I said that I prefer Trump to woke cancel “culture,” like I would prefer losing one leg to losing both. The woke “culture” of whining and mobbing instead of striving and arguing will have catastrophic consequences if we don’t stop it now.

 > now I do call myself a libertarian, or at least a libertarian at heart, because today's"culture" in the West is becoming anti-libertarian and this must be stopped.

For nearly 8 years I've been asking, almost begging, people who called themselves libertarians to explain to me how they can feel any emotion other than contempt or revulsion for a creature like Donald Trump, but I never received an answer that contained even a fragment of rationality. In fact I was kicked off the Extropian List for asking that question too often. 

> I'm a libertarian in the true sense of the word: one whothinks that one should be free to think/speak/do whatever the fuck he likes as long as he doesn't interfere with the freedom of others to do the same.

I agree completely. But you expect that if Trump is back in the White House it will help to achieve that noble goal ?!!   

No, and I hope you guys will choose another Republican candidate. But again, continuing with current trends would be so detrimental to that noble goal than everything is better than that.

John K Clark

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[John Clark]

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:30 AM Giulio Prisco <giu...@gmail.com> wrote:

 > The woke “culture” of whining and mobbing instead of striving and arguing will have catastrophic consequences if we don’t stop it now.

Woke culture is certainly annoying, but it won't be more catastrophic than the USA turning into a fascist dictatorship, and if Trump really wins the 2024 election (he will certainly claim he won regardless of what the vote turns out to be) I believe it will be the last election this country ever sees. And speaking of whining, Donald Trump is constantly whining about how the world has treated this son of a billionaire so so unfairly.  

As a European you're much closer to Putin's Ukrainian war then I am, so how do you feel about Trump being so buddy-buddy with his best friend Vladimir Putin and wanting the US to pull out of NATO because it's "obsolete"? I think Putin knows that the only hope he has of coming out of this war alive and in one piece is if he can hang on until January 20 2025 and Trump becomes the new president.

  John K Clark

[Giulio Prisco]

Again, at times one is forced to choose between losing one leg and
losing both. I don't like Trump and I very much dislike Putin, but I'm
afraid the woke thing is the two legs.

> John K Clark
>
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[Brent Allsop]

I didn't realize there were this many people that think Trump is Better than Biden, here.

I sure think it'd be great to know how many people are on what side of this issue.

Here is what I think.

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