US conducted multi-decade secret UFO program

[Alan Grayson]

US conducted ‘multi-decade’ secret UFO program, ex-intelligence official says (msn.com)

[Alan Grayson]

Whistleblower Drops Bombshell Testimony Before Congress About UFOs And Aliens (msn.com)

[spudb...@aol.com]

I saw snippets of this earlier today. It was a cross aisle meeting. For me, it sounds too good to be true. If the Harvard lads that scooped the Pacific for saucers found actual parts rather than something produced possibly, by geological processes, I'd get more worked up. Testimony is great. However, for me, I am living in the material world, and I am material girl. :-/

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[Alan Grayson]

Here are the 5 most memorable moments from Congress’ UFO hearing (msn.com)

[Alan Grayson]

Close Encounters With UFOs Described to Congressional Committee (msn.com)

[Alan Grayson]

Retired Air Force officer testifies the US is concealing UFO info | Watch (msn.com)

[Alan Grayson]

David Grusch Fears 'For Life' After Claiming US In Possession Of UFOs | Watch (msn.com)

[Alan Grayson]

Non-Human Biologics Piloted the UFOs, Testifies a Whistleblower (msn.com)

[Alan Grayson]

At the end of the day I think the Pentagon will continue to stonewall, and refuse to declassify any UFO documents it is withholding. And Biden will allow the Pentagon to have final say on declassification. The information being withheld is probably too compromising for it to see any light. AG

[Alan Grayson]

'Insulting': Pentagon's UFO boss torches claims of alien coverup (msn.com)

[spudb...@aol.com]

Personally, I would like the cosmos to be occupied by evolved, technological, minds. If they are here, they may not be close. I am open to evidence, but look at all the politicians who would have gotten out of trouble quick by a reveal? Johnson, Nixon, Carter, Clinton, Trump, Gorbachev, Yeltsin? That is my counter, because it'd end any problems for them. 

Keep watching the skies.

It may end up being true?

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/c38ebcee-99cd-4114-b24c-4397bf38aa93n%40googlegroups.com

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[John Clark]

On Sun, Jul 30, 2023 at 12:04 AM 'spudb...@aol.com' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Personally, I would like the cosmos to be occupied by evolved, technological, minds.

Most people feel the same way, that's why such things are so abundant in popular culture and you can watch flying saucer or ancient astronaut crap on TV just about any time of the day or night. But reality is not required to be compatible with human desires.

> Keep watching the skies.

I agree, there's a lot of interesting stuff up there, but flying saucers are not one of them.

John K Clark

.,-

[Alan Grayson]

You can ignore the 5% of UFO events considered enigmatic and inexplicably still consider yourself a scientist. Sagan had the same view. AG

[spudb...@aol.com]

Understood. From where my mind is at, there is great advantage and excitement to having fellow experiencers in the Schrodinger's box we call the Universe. One advantage is to be a factor containing human aggression. If there are fellows in the skies, telling Putin, "You know the Neighbors are watching!" might actually work? If not for him, then his voters. Secondly, we could use some advice from them in the form of Sagan, again, "How did you learn to survive?" Third, possible trade and information. How could these superior being trade with us? Well, if the ants or termites had some residual intelligence even as a group, count on us humans making a buck on it. 

Ad Astra!

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[spudb...@aol.com]

From your keyboard to God's Dyson Sphere!

​Dyson spheres: The key to resurrection and immortality? - Big Think

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[spudb...@aol.com]

We May Have Found The Part of The Brain Where Conscious Experience Lives : ScienceAlert

[Alan Grayson]

There was a classified session of the House Oversight Committee and the key, or at least provocative findings. remain classified. AG

[Alan Grayson]

Congressman: More witnesses were scared away from UFO hearing (msn.com)

[Alan Grayson]

A monumental UFO scandal is looming (msn.com)

[John Clark]

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 9:52 AM Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:

> A monumental UFO scandal is looming

A former and possible future President of the United States is going to be put on trial for treason, Europe is experiencing the largest conflict since World War II, and computers are on the verge of becoming more intelligent than human beings, but all you wanna talk about is flying saucers.  

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

868

 

[Alan Grayson]

AFAIK, all attempts to create life in a test tube have failed. Am I supposed to believe that computer scientists have created conscious entities even though they have zero understanding of what consciousness is? AG

[John Clark]

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 11:06 AM Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:

> AFAIK, all attempts to create life in a test tube have failed.

Artificial life made in lab can grow and divide like natural bacteria 

 

> Am I supposed to believe that computer scientists have created conscious entities even though they have zero understanding of what consciousness is? AG

 

Am I supposed to believe that you are conscious even though I have zero understanding of what your consciousness is? 

  John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

yvc

868

[Alan Grayson]

Yes, because you believe YOU are conscious and we're similarly constituted; that is, created by a virtually identical process. But for computers to be conscious, implies those who built them somehow stumbled onto constructing a living entity without knowing what life or living is. Most improbable IMO. AG

[Alan Grayson]

Incidentally, I read yesterday that William Shatner is hugely skeptical about aliens coming hundred or thousands of light years from Earth, only to remain anonymous. I suppose  he has a point, but maybe they're local, say natural residents on one of the moons of Jupiter or Saturn. What offends me about your view of aliens, is that it's unscientific but implicitly claims to be otherwise.  The fact is about 5% of the sightings are inexplicable. Sagan also fell into that trap. I recall a dinner I had with him (and his 2nd wife) where that pov controlled his negative conclusion. AG

[Alan Grayson]

I read an article recently which claimed that RNA has been produced in a lab, but nothing remotely like a replicating living entity. In response to your other comment, I am just saying that our physical forms and the process of our creations, are virtually identical, so on that basis you can make the inference that our consciousnesses are similarly constructed even though neither of us know what that structure is. AG

[John Clark]

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 1:44 PM Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, because you believe YOU are conscious and we're similarly constituted; that is, created by a virtually identical process.

If the process that created you is virtually identical with the process that created me then you and I are virtually the same person. Are we? I don't think so. 

> But for computers to be conscious, implies those who built them somehow stumbled onto constructing a living entity without knowing what life or living is.

And yet random mutation and natural selection somehow stumbled onto a way of constructing billions of intelligent entities and at least one of them, me, is conscious. And Evolution did this without knowing what intelligence is or what consciousness is or in fact what ANYTHING is. However, that can be easily explained if consciousness is the inevitable byproduct of intelligent behavior because, unlike consciousness, natural selection can detect intelligent behavior.

[John Clark]

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 1:59 PM Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The fact is about 5% of the sightings are inexplicable

The flying saucer nuts say that precisely 0.0% of the sightings are inexplicable, they identify every single one of them, they insist that anything they see in the sky that they don't immediately recognize MUST be a spaceship from another planet piloted by strange looking space aliens. They have forgotten what the "U" in "UFO" stands for and have reduce them all to FO's. 

> Incidentally, I read yesterday that William Shatner is hugely skeptical about aliens coming hundred or thousands of light years from Earth, only to remain anonymous.

I agree with Captain Kirk about that. 

 John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

8b5

[Alan Grayson]

It's pretty clear, in fact obvious, that you regard other human beings as conscious for the reasons I stated. So there's nothing to argue about here. You want to argue that because Evolution apparently stumbled on to consciousness, it's reasonable to assume human computer scientists could have, or indeed have done the same. But whatever Evolution did, it took billions of years. Claiming human computer scientists did something similar in a few decades at most, is hugely implausible. What's hugely reasonable, is that something almost indistinguishable from consciousness or intelligence has been created, but nothing more. AG

[Alan Grayson]

If you insist on huge distortions of what UFO believers claim, there's no point in continuing this discussion. It's not unike Trumpers who continue to claim Biden stole the 2020 election. AG

[John Clark]

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 3:25 PM Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's pretty clear, in fact obvious, that you regard other human beings as conscious

YES.

 

> for the reasons I stated.

NO. For thousands of years, long before anyone knew anything about Evolution or electronics or much of anything else people believed that their fellow human beings were conscious some of the time but not all of the time. They believed they were conscious when they were behaving intelligently but they did not believe their fellow human beings were conscious when they were sleeping or under anesthesia or dead because then they were not behaving intelligently. 

 

> But whatever Evolution did, it took billions of years.

That's because Evolution is ridiculously slow and clumsy but until it got around to inventing a brain it was the only way complex objects could get built. These days, ironically thanks to intelligent design, things happen much faster and they are about to happen even faster.  

 

> Claiming human computer scientists did something similar in a few decades at most, is hugely implausible.

Hugely implausible or not, that is exactly precisely what is happening right before your eyes. I'm not a young man but I'm starting to think there is a good chance I will live long enough to personally experience the Singularity, and I wouldn't have said that six months ago. And I'm not sure that's a good thing because it might not be much fun.    

 

> What's hugely reasonable, is that something almost indistinguishable from consciousness or intelligence has been created,  but nothing more.

 

Do you believe the Pope when he says every Catholic Mass is able to magically turn bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ, not symbolically but literally, even though the bread and wine at the end of the silly religious ceremony is indistinguishable from what it was at the beginning? If you believe in the above voodoo about consciousness it's not much of a step to believe in the Pope's voodoo too.

 John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

v0o

[John Clark]

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 3:31 PM Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:

> If you insist on huge distortions of what UFO believers claim, there's no point in continuing this discussion. It's not unike Trumpers who [blah blah]

Wow, calling a guy known for disliking Trump a Trumper, never heard that one before, at least I never heard it before except by you about 1000 times before. 

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

djt

[Alan Grayson]

This is a dumb discussion. You admit, more or less, that you don't know what consciousness is, yet you insist that's what AI is manifesting. All you can really say with any certainty, that AI is able to MIMIC conscious behavior. So, my advice, is stick to what you really know, and cease your unfounded extrapolations. As for UFO's, you want to downplay any possible evidence that they might represent alien presence. So you totally distort about 5% of the inexplicable cases. This is simply dishonest. This discussion can go nowhere as long as you persist in this type of behavior, which in principle not unlike what Trumpers habitually do.  AG

[John Clark]

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 4:28 PM Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is a dumb discussion.

I've noticed.  

 

> You admit, more or less, that you don't know what consciousness is, yet you insist that's what AI is manifesting.

No, I don't insist that an AI must be conscious, I just insist that it's equally logical for me to conclude an AI is conscious as it is for me to conclude that Alan Grayson is conscious. 

> This discussion can go nowhere as long as you persist in this type of behavior, which in principle not unlike what Trumpers [blah blah]

 Wow, calling a guy known for disliking Trump a Trumper, never heard that one before, at least I never heard it before except by you about 1000 times before. 

 John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

cz9

 

 

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 3:25 PM Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's pretty clear, in fact obvious, that you regard other human beings as conscious

YES.

 

> for the reasons I stated.

NO. For thousands of years, long before anyone knew anything about Evolution or electronics or much of anything else people believed that their fellow human beings were conscious some of the time but not all of the time. They believed they were conscious when they were behaving intelligently but they did not believe their fellow human beings were conscious when they were sleeping or under anesthesia or dead because then they were not behaving intelligently. 

 

> But whatever Evolution did, it took billions of years.

That's because Evolution is ridiculously slow and clumsy but until it got around to inventing a brain it was the only way complex objects could get built. These days, ironically thanks to intelligent design, things happen much faster and they are about to happen even faster.  

 

> Claiming human computer scientists did something similar in a few decades at most, is hugely implausible.

Hugely implausible or not, that is exactly precisely what is happening right before your eyes. I'm not a young man but I'm starting to think there is a good chance I will live long enough to personally experience the Singularity, and I wouldn't have said that six months ago. And I'm not sure that's a good thing because it might not be much fun.    

 

> What's hugely reasonable, is that something almost indistinguishable from consciousness or intelligence has been created,  but nothing more.

 

Do you believe the Pope when he says every Catholic Mass is able to magically turn bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ, not symbolically but literally, even though the bread and wine at the end of the silly religious ceremony is indistinguishable from what it was at the beginning? If you believe in the above voodoo about consciousness it's not much of a step to believe in the Pope's voodoo too.

v0o

[Alan Grayson]

JC: I just insist that it's equally logical for me to conclude an AI is conscious as it is for me to conclude that Alan Grayson is conscious. 

AG: That's wrong.

[John Clark]

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 10:52 PM Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> JC: I just insist that it's equally logical for me to conclude an AI is conscious as it is for me to conclude that Alan Grayson is conscious. 

 

>AG: That's wrong.

So  Alan Grayson is not conscious, not even when he's not sleeping or under anesthesia or dead? Well OK, as the world's greatest expert on Alan Grayson you'd know more about that than I do. 

 John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

eqg

[Alan Grayson]

As far as consciousness is concerned, you've done your research on AG and determined his creation was remarkably similar to yours. Hence, if you consider yourself conscious, you can extend that belief to AG. Generally, that in principle is what we humans habitually do. But AI does not fall into this category of YOUR knowing. To equate your knowledge of AG with AI is just a foolish extrapolation. AG

[John Clark]

On Sun, Aug 6, 2023 at 9:54 AM Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:

> As far as consciousness is concerned, you've done your research on AG and determined his creation was remarkably similar to yours. Hence, if you consider yourself conscious, you can extend that belief to AG.

But I don't believe that  Alan Grayson is conscious all the time, not when he's sleeping or or under anesthesia or dead because during those times he is not behaving intelligently. 

> Generally, that in principle is what we humans habitually do. But AI does not fall into this category of YOUR knowing. To equate your knowledge of AG with AI is just a foolish extrapolation. AG

By using your same logic would it also be foolish extrapolation for GPT-4 to conclude that human beings are conscious? That is the more important question because in the long run it won't  really matter if humans think an AI is conscious or not, but an AI's opinion of human beings will matter a lot, at least for the humans. 

 

 John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

chf

[Alan Grayson]

Consistent with your de facto Trumper methodology, you manipulate the facts of the argument. That is, whereas I agree I am not acting "intelligently" when sleeping, under sedation, or dead, all I asserted, and continue to assert, that based on your knowledge of how AG was CREATED, you can, and DO assume he is conscious in his awake state. Extrapolating, or asserting that, to some equivalence to AI makes no sense whatsoever. As usual, you have a pov to be asserted and defended, even if it makes no logical sense. How is this methodology different from what Trumpers habitually do? AG

[John Clark]

On Sun, Aug 6, 2023 at 1:17 PM Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Consistent with your de facto Trumper [blah blah]

 Wow, calling a guy known for disliking Trump a Trumper, never heard that one before, at least I never heard it before except by you about 1002 times before. 

 

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

tvg

[Alan Grayson]

Yes, typical Trumpering mentality; unable to deal with facts. AG

[John Clark]

On Sun, Aug 6, 2023 at 6:25 PM Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, typical Trumpering [blah blah]

tWow, calling a guy known for disliking Trump a Trumper, never heard that one before, at least I never heard it before except by you about 1003 times before. 

 John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

jjj

[spudb...@aol.com]

Being a Trumpkin myself, with a little RFK on the side, I would ask how do any politicians, bankers, or any of the military, world-wide, BENEFIT by withholding knowledge about apparent, Friendlies, from an advanced species in the Milky Way? People, even the crazy, religious. would wait and see if there was anything dangerous or good, before heading for the hills. My guess was, it would boost pressure against the war mongers like Putin. But also give his voters and out, because now, The Others are Watching.

Unless we have better evidence, besides testimony, no pitchfork of mine shall be lifted skywards, against their Godless tentacles! 

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[John Clark]

On Sun, Aug 6, 2023 at 6:56 PM 'spudb...@aol.com' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Being a Trumpkin myself, with a little RFK on the side,

RFK! If you put a gun to my head and I had to pick somebody even dumber than Trump it would be RFK. I mean, the COVID vaccine has been genetically engineered by Ashkenazy Jews and the Chinese so that it kills other races but gives them immunity?  Sirhan Sirhan didn't kill RFK's father even though there is a film and hundreds of eyewitnesses indicating that he did? Prescription drugs cause mass shootings, not firearms? It was not Trump but  Bill Gates and Dr. Fauci who launched "a historic coup d'état against Western democracy"? And all vaccines cause autism? It's the sort of thing that gives crackpots a bad name.
 

 John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

IlIl

jj

[spudb...@aol.com]

No, the thing about us ash-kans traced to syria. Sirhan and Oswald dis it John because of J. Edgar Hoover and the Dulles boys. Blackmail and counter Blackmail with the Hoovers & the Missile of October 1962 for the Dulles bros! FBI sought men who wanted to be men of destiny for assassins. Hoover.. 

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