Definition or creation of clocks

[Alan Grayson]

I admit that I don't know how a clock is constructed by the fact that there is a known, fixed frequency of emitted radiation in the decay from the first excited state to the ground state of Cesium 133. Further, I also don't see how a clock can be constructed by a statistical quantity of the half-life of a muon. The decay time for any muon is undetermined, so how can a clock be constructed by its decay time? TY, AG

[Brent Meeker]

On 6/16/2025 9:26 PM, Alan Grayson wrote:

I admit that I don't know how a clock is constructed by the fact that there is a known, fixed frequency of emitted radiation in the decay from the first excited state to the ground state of Cesium 133. Further, I also don't see how a clock can be constructed by a statistical quantity of the half-life of a muon. The decay time for any muon is undetermined, so how can a clock be constructed by its decay time? TY, AG -- 

Because you can have bazillions of them and get a pretty accurate interval by counting up to say a million decay events.

Brent

[Alan Grayson]

Who or what does the counting? Seems rather impractical. AG 

[John Clark]

On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 12:56 AM Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Because you can have bazillions of them and get a pretty accurate interval by counting up to say a million decay events.
Brent

> Who or what does the counting? Seems rather impractical. AG 

Of course it's impractical, no engineer in his right mind would want to make a clock that way, but this is a thought experiment and in thought experiments you're only interested in if something is theoretically possible, its practicality is irrelevant.  

 John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

mnb

 

[Alan Grayson]

True, but I remain unclear how one could construct a clock in that situation, or allegedly in the simpler case of Cesium 133,. AG

mnb

 

[Brent Meeker]

It would be possible to count them electronically, but I wouldn't claim it was practical.  Maybe that's why there are no muon clocks and atomic clocks don't use decay rates.

Brent

[PGC]

You're sat at a dusty but modern whiskey bar on the edge of a high-tech research ranch somewhere in West Texas. The polished mahogany bar glows under a low amber light. A tall, weathered man with a bolo tie, boots polished like obsidian, and eyes that twinkle like they’ve seen both God and Copenhagen, leans back in his chair, glass of rye in hand and looks at you.

It's Dr. Brent Colt Meeker-Abernathy:

"Well now, son, reckon you just stumbled on somethin’ real peculiar. See that lil’ fella on my wrist? That ain’t no Apple witchcraft nor no tickin’ quartz pebble from the devil’s catalog. What you’re lookin’ at... is a muon clock."

(He takes a slow sip, relishing the silence that follows.)

"Yep. Real deal. Time carved from matter itself. Not your cheapo rubidium rigs or some fancy optical whatchamacallit starred up in the heavens. Naw. I went and built me a clock that keeps time by watchin' particles die."

"Back on my ranch—I call it the Tau Line, for obvious reasons—I got a synchrotron slingin’ protons into a graphite target like a pissed-off angel throwin' thunderbolts. That makes pions, and them pions, bless their short little lives, decay into a fresh stream o’ muons, right on schedule like rain on a tin roof."

"Now here’s the clever bit. Them muons, they don’t last. In their own lazy frame, they got about 2.2 microseconds 'fore they poof into electrons and neutrinos. But you shoot 'em fast enough? Like damn near the speed of light? Then ol’ Einstein buys you time. Relativity stretches their little lives out, long enough to watch ’em die in a storage ring I keep colder’n a preacher’s heart."

"I got me detectors—finest scintillators money can buy—lined up like soldiers, clickin' off each decay like a funeral bell. Every tick of this here wristwatch? That’s a dead muon, partner. Time ain't passin’... unless the universe loses a particle."

(He taps the watch face gently. It doesn't glow. It clicks. Deep and soft, like it means it.)

"And that little beauty don’t rely on nothin’ abstract. Not some cesium cloud trapped in a vacuum with a PhD. Not no orbital mechanics of stars birthed in some ancient fireball. Just flesh-of-the-universe matter, dyin’ honest, tellin’ me the truth of now."

"My phone pulls it, too. Whole system pings the mainframe at the Tau Line. Millisecond drift's corrected by the deaths of thousands of particles every second. Hell, I even got my damn coffee machine syncin’ to it."

"Why?"

(He leans in, one brow raised like a canyon ridge.)

"’Cause I don’t trust no time that don’t bleed. Digital clocks? They pretend shit. Atomic clocks? They're up in their woke heads, floatin’ in probability waves and EM fuzz. But muons? Muons perish. They tell time like a cowboy tellin’ stories—straight, gritty, and with a little smoke left over."

(He leans back again and chuckles low.)

"People think I'm eccentric. Maybe. But the universe built itself a stopwatch, and it’s a countin’ down. I just figured I’d wear it on my wrist. None of that woke ass nonsense with no guns. Muons goin' down, boay."

--- Nah, guys... I can't give it enough slowness and muted nasal quack twang in writing.  

[Alan Grayson]

Apparently, for Cesium 133, there's a particular transition which has a frequency suitable for defining a second. How is this any help in building a clock if we don't know, and apparently can't know, when such a transition will occur? AG 

[Brent Meeker]

I think I already posted that the atoms are excited with a tunable microwave tuned so that the absorbed and emitted EM frequencies are the same, in other words in resonance with the Ce-133 transition.  Then the frequency of the microwave is used as the clock.

Brent

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[Alan Grayson]

On Wednesday, June 18, 2025 at 1:57:41 PM UTC-6 Brent Meeker wrote:

On 6/18/2025 7:59 AM, Alan Grayson wrote:

On Tuesday, June 17, 2025 at 2:07:34 PM UTC-6 Brent Meeker wrote:

On 6/16/2025 9:56 PM, Alan Grayson wrote:

On Monday, June 16, 2025 at 10:47:25 PM UTC-6 Brent Meeker wrote:

On 6/16/2025 9:26 PM, Alan Grayson wrote:

I admit that I don't know how a clock is constructed by the fact that there is a known, fixed frequency of emitted radiation in the decay from the first excited state to the ground state of Cesium 133. Further, I also don't see how a clock can be constructed by a statistical quantity of the half-life of a muon. The decay time for any muon is undetermined, so how can a clock be constructed by its decay time? TY, AG -- 

Because you can have bazillions of them and get a pretty accurate interval by counting up to say a million decay events.

Brent

Who or what does the counting? Seems rather impractical. AG 

It would be possible to count them electronically, but I wouldn't claim it was practical.  Maybe that's why there are no muon clocks and atomic clocks don't use decay rates.

Brent

Apparently, for Cesium 133, there's a particular transition which has a frequency suitable for defining a second. How is this any help in building a clock if we don't know, and apparently can't know, when such a transition will occur? AG 

I think I already posted that the atoms are excited with a tunable microwave tuned so that the absorbed and emitted EM frequencies are the same, in other words in resonance with the Ce-133 transition.  Then the frequency of the microwave is used as the clock.

Brent

But since the emissions are inherently random, how can these transitions function as a clock? AG