Root of consciousness revealed
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John Clark
Mar 15, 2025, 7:11:42 AM3/15/25
to 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
On Sat, Mar 15, 2025 at 1:20 AM Brent Meeker <meeke...@gmail.com> wrote:
The Turing Test is an imperfect tool but it's all we've got to work with; it can prove that something is intelligent but it can never prove that something is unintelligent. A rock might be smarter than Einstein but doesn't like to communicate, Trump might be a genius who's just pretending to be stupid. I'd say both things are about equally likely.
Yes, and that's exactly why I believe my fellow human beings are probably conscious, when they are NOT sleeping or under anesthesia or dead, because during those times their actions display human level intelligence.
>> I can't conclude a person is not intelligent and conscious just because I don't know his motivations, I can't always explain, even to myself, why I did what I did other than "I just wanted to" and yet I know for a fact that I am conscious and sometimes my actions are slightly more intelligent than a rock's actions. And EXACTLY the same thing can be said about an AI; so you were wrong when you said we have to understand the motivations of an AI before we can say it is intelligent.
> So if the AI loses every chess game we can say it's unintelligent without knowing whether it wanted to win?
The Turing Test is an imperfect tool but it's all we've got to work with; it can prove that something is intelligent but it can never prove that something is unintelligent. A rock might be smarter than Einstein but doesn't like to communicate, Trump might be a genius who's just pretending to be stupid. I'd say both things are about equally likely.
> Then we're in agreement that consciousness in not just a spandrel,
No because an Evolutionary Spandrel is a trait that was not selected for by Natural Selection but is the inevitable byproduct of something that was
> and all things with human level intelligence probably have it.
Alan Grayson
Mar 15, 2025, 8:04:47 AM3/15/25
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On Saturday, March 15, 2025 at 5:11:42 AM UTC-6 John Clark wrote:
On Sat, Mar 15, 2025 at 1:20 AM Brent Meeker <meeke...@gmail.com> wrote:>> I can't conclude a person is not intelligent and conscious just because I don't know his motivations, I can't always explain, even to myself, why I did what I did other than "I just wanted to" and yet I know for a fact that I am conscious and sometimes my actions are slightly more intelligent than a rock's actions. And EXACTLY the same thing can be said about an AI; so you were wrong when you said we have to understand the motivations of an AI before we can say it is intelligent.> So if the AI loses every chess game we can say it's unintelligent without knowing whether it wanted to win?
The Turing Test is an imperfect tool but it's all we've got to work with; it can prove that something is intelligent
The Turing test can establish if something is indistinguishable from being human, and hence intelligent, but not if it's conscious. AG
Cosmin Visan
Mar 15, 2025, 8:24:41 AM3/15/25
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AI! AI! AI! AHHH! THE ORGASM WAS THROUGH THE ROOF!
Alan Grayson
Mar 15, 2025, 8:29:07 AM3/15/25
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On Saturday, March 15, 2025 at 6:24:41 AM UTC-6 Cosmin Visan wrote:
AI! AI! AI! AHHH! THE ORGASM WAS THROUGH THE ROOF!
When will you cease being a schmuck? Don't you realize that you have zero value added here, and fit the profile of a troll? AG
John Clark
Mar 15, 2025, 9:06:35 AM3/15/25
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On Sat, Mar 15, 2025 at 8:04 AM Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The Turing Test is an imperfect tool but it's all we've got to work with; it can prove that something is intelligent> The Turing test can establish if something is indistinguishable from being human, and hence intelligent, but not if it's conscious. AG
Unless consciousness is the inevitable byproduct of intelligence, or to put it another way, unless consciousness is an evolutionary spandrel.
John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis
cez
Cosmin Visan
Mar 15, 2025, 9:08:18 AM3/15/25
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AIIIIII!!!!!
Brent Meeker
Mar 15, 2025, 10:04:29 AM3/15/25
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On 3/15/2025 4:11 AM, John Clark wrote:
> Then we're in agreement that consciousness in not just a spandrel,
No because an Evolutionary Spandrel is a trait that was not selected for by Natural Selection but is the inevitable byproduct of something that was
So you are not convinced that conscious thought, as
is needed for foresight and planning, is not selected for by
evolution? If you haven't read, "The Origin of Consciousness in
the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" you should.
Brent
Brent
Brent Meeker
Mar 15, 2025, 10:09:35 AM3/15/25
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On 3/15/2025 6:05 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Sat, Mar 15, 2025 at 8:04 AM Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The Turing Test is an imperfect tool but it's all we've got to work with; it can prove that something is intelligent
> The Turing test can establish if something is indistinguishable from being human, and hence intelligent, but not if it's conscious. AG
Unless consciousness is the inevitable byproduct of intelligence, or to put it another way, unless consciousness is an evolutionary spandrel.
I think there are degrees
and kinds of consciousness. My dog is certainly conscious, she
knows what's going on. But without language and similar symbolic
processing I don't think human level consciousness is possible.
Brent
Brent
Cosmin Visan
Mar 15, 2025, 11:23:14 AM3/15/25
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Consciousness is the substance upon which evolution acts in the first place.
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