Trump and government secrecy
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John Clark
Sep 1, 2022, 7:33:14 AM9/1/22
to 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
Remember the big fuss Donald Trump made over Hillary Clinton's email server? The government has 4 general classification levels ,Top Secret, Secret, Confidential and Sensitive, there was never anything on Clinton's server that was higher than "sensitive". For a year and a half the government had been trying to get back classified documents that Trump has been keeping in cardboard boxes in an unsecured storage room at his golf club. Finally on June 3 of this year lawyers for Trump returned an envelope with a few classified documents in them and said UNDER OATH that after an "extensive search" that's all the classified material they could find. However the government received a tip (from who we do not know) that the lawyers were lying and there were more secret documents there. So on August 8 FBI agents raided Mar-A-Lago and after just a few minutes of searching they found one document that was "secret" and 5 that were not only top-secret but Top Secret / Sensitive Compartmented Information (TS/SCI); that means documents that are only supposed to be looked at in specially prepared super secure rooms called a SCIF, a Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility. Mar-A-Lago had a SCIF when Trump was president but it hasn't had one since he left the presidency and Donald Trump no longer has the clearance to even read stuff that is "sensitive" , much less documents marked Secret / Sensitive Compartmented Information (TS/SCI). Below is a photo taken by the FBI on August 8:
John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis
hct
smitra
Sep 1, 2022, 8:37:26 AM9/1/22
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Leading GOP politicians such as Lindsey Graham are telling lies about
the facts of this case, and FOX NEWS is helping to spread all these
lies. So, I think the current constitutional system cannot survive. A
constitutional democracy is ultimately a set of rules that everyone
agrees to stick to. Parties win or lose elections under these rules, but
they accept the outcome and will only raise objections based on the
rules, they won't attempt to circumvent the rules to get the outcome
they want.
Once a major party representing a significant fraction of the population
no longer accepts all of the rules of the system, then the system will
collapse. I think the only way to fix the system is for the Democrats to
make it clear to the GOP that their Administration will no longer
recognize SCOTUS rulings but will instead appoint an ad-hoc judicial
committee consisting of independent legal experts and will let that
committee rule on the cases that go to SCOTUS and stick to whatever that
committee rules and totally ignore the SCOTUS rulings.
The GOP will then move to impeach the government, but the Democrats will
be able to block any conviction in the Senate by not attending (because
they don't recognize the SCOTUS, they won't take the oath and accept the
Chief Justice overseeing the impeachment as legitimate) which means that
the quorum requirement won't be met.
The Democrats can then tell the GOP that they intent to do this unless
the GOP starts to behave like a normal party again, accepts the system
as it is and stops railing against it.
Saibal
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the facts of this case, and FOX NEWS is helping to spread all these
lies. So, I think the current constitutional system cannot survive. A
constitutional democracy is ultimately a set of rules that everyone
agrees to stick to. Parties win or lose elections under these rules, but
they accept the outcome and will only raise objections based on the
rules, they won't attempt to circumvent the rules to get the outcome
they want.
Once a major party representing a significant fraction of the population
no longer accepts all of the rules of the system, then the system will
collapse. I think the only way to fix the system is for the Democrats to
make it clear to the GOP that their Administration will no longer
recognize SCOTUS rulings but will instead appoint an ad-hoc judicial
committee consisting of independent legal experts and will let that
committee rule on the cases that go to SCOTUS and stick to whatever that
committee rules and totally ignore the SCOTUS rulings.
The GOP will then move to impeach the government, but the Democrats will
be able to block any conviction in the Senate by not attending (because
they don't recognize the SCOTUS, they won't take the oath and accept the
Chief Justice overseeing the impeachment as legitimate) which means that
the quorum requirement won't be met.
The Democrats can then tell the GOP that they intent to do this unless
the GOP starts to behave like a normal party again, accepts the system
as it is and stops railing against it.
Saibal
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Telmo Menezes
Sep 1, 2022, 8:58:39 AM9/1/22
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Hillary Clinton was a horrible candidate. She came off as entitled, unlikable and transparently on the side of big money and the powerful. And just because Trump is basically a gangster, doesn't mean that the email server thing should be overlooked.
My modest proposal to the Democrat Party: come up with candidates that people actually feel excited to go vote for. Biden won for being "not Trump". I find it very unlikely that this will work a second time. Yes, the Republican party is batshit crazy and they seem to have embraced being as mean and cruel as possible as their prime directive. That is a given. But should that prevent Democrat voters to do some introspection on why your party seems incapable of producing a candidate that is not fundamentally dismaying? -- even when there is always a pool of better candidates available. As an outside observer who would prefer the most powerful nation on earth to have reliable and sane leadership, I would welcome such an introspection. Not holding my breath though.
Telmo
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John Clark
Sep 1, 2022, 10:34:32 AM9/1/22
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On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 8:58 AM Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.net> wrote:
> Hillary Clinton was a horrible candidate.
Yes she was a poor campaigner and made the rookie blunder of telling the truth by referring to Trump supporters as "a basket of deplorables", successful politicians seldom tell the truth. Nevertheless in 2016 more people voted for her than voted for Donald Trump.
> She came off as entitled, unlikable and transparently on the side of big money and the powerful.
Unlike billionaire Donald Trump who inherited his money from his daddy and was transparently lovable and on the side of the poor and downtrodden such as himself. We know that Trump is one of the downtrodden because the billionaire is constantly reminding us how the world has treated him so unfairly.
> And just because Trump is basically a gangster, doesn't mean that the email server thing should be overlooked.
Any crimes Hillary Clinton committed were ridiculously trivial compared with the treason committed by Trump, such as staging a coup d'état and trying to establish a dictatorship.
> My modest proposal to the Democrat Party: come up with candidates that people actually feel excited to go vote for. Biden won for being "not Trump".
Biden has done more than that but in my opinion being "not Trump '' would've been enough because there are very few issues more important than stopping Trump from turning the USA into a totalitarian state.
> Yes, the Republican party is batshit crazy and they seem to have embraced being as mean and cruel as possible as their prime directive. That is a given.
And a cruel man who is also batshit crazy is most certainly NOT somebody who should have access to the nuclear button.
> But [...]
But? BUT?!
John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis
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Telmo Menezes
Sep 1, 2022, 11:09:38 AM9/1/22
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Am Do, 1. Sep 2022, um 16:33, schrieb John Clark:
On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 8:58 AM Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.net> wrote:> Hillary Clinton was a horrible candidate.Yes she was a poor campaigner and made the rookie blunder of telling the truth by referring to Trump supporters as "a basket of deplorables", successful politicians seldom tell the truth. Nevertheless in 2016 more people voted for her than voted for Donald Trump.
Yes, I do suspect that the "basket of deplorables" comment cost her the election. It was a stupid and mean thing to say, and being stupid and mean was the strong suit of of her adversary. Why do it? Because she was too arrogant to understand that she needed someone who knew what they were doing to run her campaign.
Even if she knew that cosmopolitan middle-class voters were her target audience, she didn't spend one second reflecting on the fact that even cosmopolitan middle-class voters have families that they do not necessarily like having insulted.
> She came off as entitled, unlikable and transparently on the side of big money and the powerful.Unlike billionaire Donald Trump who inherited his money from his daddy and was transparently lovable and on the side of the poor and downtrodden such as himself. We know that Trump is one of the downtrodden because the billionaire is constantly reminding us how the world has treated him so unfairly.
Yes, we all know this is true. And you still don't understand who voted for Trump and why they voted for Trump. These people would never vote for Hillary Clinton. The trick to win the election would be to convince the people who *could* vote for Hillary Clinton to bother doing it. And that is an totally different strategy than the one that Trump could afford, the strategy of being outright obscene.
> And just because Trump is basically a gangster, doesn't mean that the email server thing should be overlooked.Any crimes Hillary Clinton committed were ridiculously trivial compared with the treason committed by Trump, such as staging a coup d'état and trying to establish a dictatorship.
Granted, but is this really the standard you want to uphold? She had a fucking email server installed in her bathroom so that she could escape scrutiny. Why was she so invested in escaping scrutiny? What was she hiding? Doesn't this bother you? You have many people in the Democrat Party who, by the way, are below retirement age, who do not have such skeletons in their closets. Why not them?
> My modest proposal to the Democrat Party: come up with candidates that people actually feel excited to go vote for. Biden won for being "not Trump".Biden has done more than that but in my opinion being "not Trump '' would've been enough because there are very few issues more important than stopping Trump from turning the USA into a totalitarian state.
Agreed, but this attitude will get Trump elected again.
> Yes, the Republican party is batshit crazy and they seem to have embraced being as mean and cruel as possible as their prime directive. That is a given.And a cruel man who is also batshit crazy is most certainly NOT somebody who should have access to the nuclear button.
Agreed, but the only way to prevent that scenario is to mobilize the people who are not into batshit ideas to bother voting. Writing these things might help you process your feelings but it doesn't help with anything.
> But [...]But? BUT?!
Yes, but. The batshit crazy who vote for Trump will not be less batshit in 2022, but there is a very good chance that the non-batshit will be discouraged if not provided with someone remotely inspiring. That is that the reality you must face, but I know you will not (meaning the highly engaged democrats), and that is why I strongly suspect that Trump will be president again in 2024. And I assure you that I dread that outcome.
Telmo
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John Clark
Sep 1, 2022, 11:47:29 AM9/1/22
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On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 11:09 AM Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.net> wrote:
> Yes, I do suspect that the "basket of deplorables" comment cost her the election. It was a stupid and mean thing to say,
It may or may not have been mean but it was certainly accurate, and if it was stupid then it was because it's stupid to tell the truth if you're campaigning for political office.
> you still don't understand who voted for Trump and why they voted for Trump.
I know who voted for Trump but I still don't know why, that's not because of lack of effort on my part, I've asked them over and over and over again but I've yet to receive a coherent answer.
>> Any crimes Hillary Clinton committed were ridiculously trivial compared with the treason committed by Trump, such as staging a coup d'état and trying to establish a dictatorship.> Granted, but is this really the standard you want to uphold?
You may think that avoiding dictatorship is a low bar to clear but sometimes I feel like it is an impossibly high one. Avoiding a bad president is far more important than electing a good one because there is a limit to the amount of good a president can do but there is no bottom to bad.
> She had a fucking email server installed in her bathroom
Big fucking deal! I'm talking about nullifying a presidential election, keeping records that were beyond top secret in a cardboard box in a unsecured room at a golf club, bungling a pandemic response, increasing the likelihood of Iran developing a nuclear bomb, depriving women of having autonomy over their own body, and staging an unsuccessful coup d'état. And you're still worried about Hillary Clinton's email server!
> Agreed, but the only way to prevent that scenario is to mobilize the people who are not into batshit ideas to bother voting. Writing these things might help you process your feelings but it doesn't help with anything.
You mean I will not be able to single-handedly save the nation with my posts?! I am crushed!!
> The batshit crazy who vote for Trump will not be less batshit in 2022, but there is a very good chance that the non-batshit will be discouraged if not provided with someone remotely inspiring.
Biden lacks showmanship but he is not crazy nor is he cruel, and if he is not brilliant he is at least reasonably competent.
> That is that the reality you must face, but I know you will not (meaning the highly engaged democrats), and that is why I strongly suspect that Trump will be president again in 2024.
Not if Trump is in prison, and if I had 5 documents in a cardboard box in my house marked "Top Secret (TS/SCI)" that's where I'd be.
John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis
43r
Telmo Menezes
Sep 1, 2022, 12:08:26 PM9/1/22
to John Clark, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
Am Do, 1. Sep 2022, um 17:46, schrieb John Clark:
On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 11:09 AM Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.net> wrote:> Yes, I do suspect that the "basket of deplorables" comment cost her the election. It was a stupid and mean thing to say,It may or may not have been mean but it was certainly accurate, and if it was stupid then it was because it's stupid to tell the truth if you're campaigning for political office.
A long time ago I had a class called "Introduction to Artificial Intelligence". I remember that one of the first topics was the definition of an "intelligent agent", and it went something like this: an intelligent agent is an agent who has a goal, and takes actions that are likely to maximize it's probability of reaching that goal. Conversely, stupidity is defined as taking actions that are likely to move you away from that goal.
The mean part relates to the simple realization that, unlike Hilary Clinton, who live in a Washington power bubble, most people have families who don't necessarily share their political opinions, but they might still love them.
> you still don't understand who voted for Trump and why they voted for Trump.I know who voted for Trump but I still don't know why, that's not because of lack of effort on my part, I've asked them over and over and over again but I've yet to receive a coherent answer.
People voted for Trump because they figured they had no hope of improving their situation in life, but they could at least really annoy the people they don't like. People like you and me. Trump was very effective at showing them how gross and obscene he was willing to be on their behalf, and going by the last election numbers, he did not disappoint.
>> Any crimes Hillary Clinton committed were ridiculously trivial compared with the treason committed by Trump, such as staging a coup d'état and trying to establish a dictatorship.> Granted, but is this really the standard you want to uphold?You may think that avoiding dictatorship is a low bar to clear but sometimes I feel like it is an impossibly high one. Avoiding a bad president is far more important than electing a good one because there is a limit to the amount of good a president can do but there is no bottom to bad.
You are betting too much on this. I suspect that the majority of the American voters does not believe that democracy is at risk.
> She had a fucking email server installed in her bathroomBig fucking deal! I'm talking about nullifying a presidential election, keeping records that were beyond top secret in a cardboard box in a unsecured room at a golf club, bungling a pandemic response, increasing the likelihood of Iran developing a nuclear bomb, depriving women of having autonomy over their own body, and staging an unsuccessful coup d'état. And you're still worried about Hillary Clinton's email server!
I am not "worried". I am baffled by the fact that you don't see that this is the sort of tribal thinking and slippery slope rationalizations that produce the party that you just escaped.
> Agreed, but the only way to prevent that scenario is to mobilize the people who are not into batshit ideas to bother voting. Writing these things might help you process your feelings but it doesn't help with anything.You mean I will not be able to single-handedly save the nation with my posts?! I am crushed!!
Ok John. You are a very smart person and you know exactly what I mean: this way of thinking is prevalent in the Democratic party, it is smug and self-indulgent and it worries me, because I want the Democratic Party to win.
> The batshit crazy who vote for Trump will not be less batshit in 2022, but there is a very good chance that the non-batshit will be discouraged if not provided with someone remotely inspiring.Biden lacks showmanship but he is not crazy nor is he cruel, and if he is not brilliant he is at least reasonably competent.
He is a non-entity. Which is better than being Trump, I will grant you that.
> That is that the reality you must face, but I know you will not (meaning the highly engaged democrats), and that is why I strongly suspect that Trump will be president again in 2024.Not if Trump is in prison, and if I had 5 documents in a cardboard box in my house marked "Top Secret (TS/SCI)" that's where I'd be.
He won't be in prison.
Telmo
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Brent Meeker
Sep 1, 2022, 12:25:59 PM9/1/22
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What worries me, and which never seems discussed in all the media
coverage, is that we all know Trump was NOT interested reading these
documents. His staff couldn't even get him to read the daily
briefings. So there's only one thing he could have wanted them
for...and it's treasonous.
Brent
Brent
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Brent Meeker
Sep 1, 2022, 12:34:14 PM9/1/22
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On 9/1/2022 5:37 AM, smitra wrote:
> Leading GOP politicians such as Lindsey Graham are telling lies about
> the facts of this case, and FOX NEWS is helping to spread all these
> lies. So, I think the current constitutional system cannot survive. A
> constitutional democracy is ultimately a set of rules that everyone
> agrees to stick to. Parties win or lose elections under these rules,
> but they accept the outcome and will only raise objections based on
> the rules, they won't attempt to circumvent the rules to get the
> outcome they want.
>
> Once a major party representing a significant fraction of the
> population no longer accepts all of the rules of the system, then the
> system will collapse. I think the only way to fix the system is for
> the Democrats to make it clear to the GOP that their Administration
> will no longer recognize SCOTUS rulings
Dems. The only way to save the rule of law is to abide by and enforce
the law. You can't save the rule of law by breaking it yourself. This
will work, but only if there is enough support in the electorate to
overcome the Reps diddling with the rules. I think there is, but the
Nov election will tell.
Brent
Brent Meeker
Sep 1, 2022, 1:05:27 PM9/1/22
to everyth...@googlegroups.com
On 9/1/2022 8:46 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 11:09 AM Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.net> wrote:
> Yes, I do suspect that the "basket of deplorables" comment cost her the election. It was a stupid and mean thing to say,
It may or may not have been mean but it was certainly accurate, and if it was stupid then it was because it's stupid to tell the truth if you're campaigning for political office.
> you still don't understand who voted for Trump and why they voted for Trump.
I know who voted for Trump but I still don't know why, that's not because of lack of effort on my part, I've asked them over and over and over again but I've yet to receive a coherent answer.
So far as I've been able to ascertain, they voted for him because of
what they were against. They were against immigrants, the educated,
gays, browns, blacks, jews, and most of all government.
Since Reagan the fundamental message of the Republican party has
been, "Government is bad. Government is oppressing you. Government
can do nothing right. Free enterprise means free of government.
Corporations can do it better." And Mitch McConnell keeps proving
them right.
>> Any crimes Hillary Clinton committed were ridiculously trivial compared with the treason committed by Trump, such as staging a coup d'état and trying to establish a dictatorship.
> Granted, but is this really the standard you want to uphold?
You may think that avoiding dictatorship is a low bar to clear but sometimes I feel like it is an impossibly high one. Avoiding a bad president is far more important than electing a good one because there is a limit to the amount of good a president can do but there is no bottom to bad.
> She had a fucking email server installed in her bathroom
Big fucking deal! I'm talking about nullifying a presidential election, keeping records that were beyond top secret in a cardboard box in a unsecured room at a golf club, bungling a pandemic response, increasing the likelihood of Iran developing a nuclear bomb, depriving women of having autonomy over their own body, and staging an unsuccessful coup d'état. And you're still worried about Hillary Clinton's email server!
> Agreed, but the only way to prevent that scenario is to mobilize the people who are not into batshit ideas to bother voting. Writing these things might help you process your feelings but it doesn't help with anything.
You mean I will not be able to single-handedly save the nation with my posts?! I am crushed!!
> The batshit crazy who vote for Trump will not be less batshit in 2022, but there is a very good chance that the non-batshit will be discouraged if not provided with someone remotely inspiring.
Biden lacks showmanship but he is not crazy nor is he cruel, and if he is not brilliant he is at least reasonably competent.
In 2024, our Governor, Gavin Newsom, may run for President. He's
smart, rich, and much younger and more dynamic than Biden, or
Harris.
Brent
Brent
> That is that the reality you must face, but I know you will not (meaning the highly engaged democrats), and that is why I strongly suspect that Trump will be president again in 2024.Not if Trump is in prison, and if I had 5 documents in a cardboard box in my house marked "Top Secret (TS/SCI)" that's where I'd be.
John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis43r
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Brent Meeker
Sep 1, 2022, 1:11:41 PM9/1/22
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This is how I think it will go. Trump will be charged with
mishandling government documents and convicted. Biden will pardon
him, thus avoiding more of his whining martyrdom....but that crime
makes him ineligible to hold any federal office...and a pardon must
be accepted with admission of guilt implicit.
Brent
Brent
Telmo Menezes
Sep 1, 2022, 2:38:16 PM9/1/22
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I hope that you are right.
Telmo
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John Clark
Sep 1, 2022, 2:50:53 PM9/1/22
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On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 2:38 PM Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.net> wrote:
I hope that you are right.
Me too!
John Clark
Sep 3, 2022, 7:18:37 AM9/3/22
to Telmo Menezes, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 12:08 PM Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.net> wrote:
>> Biden lacks showmanship but he is not crazy nor is he cruel, and if he is not brilliant he is at least reasonably competent.
> He is a non-entity. Which is better than being Trump, I will grant you that.
Biden may be a non-entity, he's certainly not showy, but you could argue he has had the most productive 2 years of any president since Linden Johnson. Biden faced intense opposition from Republicans about everything but nevertheless he managed to pass the first real gun control legislation in 30 years, and a 280 billion dollar industrial bill to counter China, and a bill to reduce health costs by allowing Medicare to negotiate drug prices by allowing the government to negotiate prescription prices from the drug companies saving the government 300 billion dollars over 10 years, and a bill to reduce greenhouse gases by 40%, and a bill to raise taxes on corporations and the ultra super mega rich, and a bill to expand medical benefits for veterans and September 11 first responders who were exposed to toxic chemicals. Oh and I almost forgot, Biden also prevented an ignorant cruel megalomaniac from becoming dictator of the USA, or at least he delayed that sad day by 4 years.
John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis
rry
Brent Meeker
Sep 4, 2022, 7:37:52 PM9/4/22
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And you forgot that Biden got us out of America's longest war.
Something Trump negotiated but was to cowardly to do on his watch.
Brent
Brent
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Telmo Menezes
Sep 5, 2022, 1:29:53 AM9/5/22
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If I were American, I would be ashamed of the whole Afghanistan affair. Certainly not America's finest hour. But granted, once the decision had been made to intervene in "the graveyard of empires", all subsequent presidents were inexorably placed in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. I suspect that nothing was learned.
Telmo
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Telmo Menezes
Sep 5, 2022, 5:31:43 AM9/5/22
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On a more positive note, I would be really proud of NASA. I have been suffering with the scrubbed launches of Artemis and I am really rooting for it to go well. I always have the stream on when it's about to happen. The space shuttle color scheme and the NASA logos make my eyes tear up a bit. Makes me think there is still hope for humanity.
Telmo
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