Afghanistan papers

[Lawrence Crowell]

This is the Pentagon papers all over again.

LC

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/afghanistan-war-confidential-documents/

[spudb...@aol.com]

My response is that with the hindsight we possess now, had I been chief bozo back in 2001, this wouldn't have pleased you, but it would have ended the jihad in its current shape. I would have mightily displeased the elites in all their forms. Having said this, so what, I am but a pipsqueak and the things that roll round the world has no need of reference to me.

The way I now see things breaking including foreign policy  and war, is an internal US conflict, based on The Ruling Class versus the Middle. The question is as the old union tune went, "which side are you on boy, which side are you on?" (Woody Guthrie?). I side with the middle class against the rich for reasons of bad governance. The class war of the globalists against the middle will go on high flame at some future inflection point. But's that's me, voter for Trump, analyze like Chucky Marx. 

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[John Clark]

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 7:10 PM spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 > with the hindsight we possess now, had I been chief bozo back in 2001, this wouldn't have pleased you, but it would have ended the jihad in its current shape.

 

I'm sure we'd all like to hear a few specifics on your proposal. If you had been the Minister Of Magic, sorry, I mean the President, back in 2001, what form of Dark Magic would you have used to curse the Taliban. One of Harry Potter's unforgivable curses?

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis 

kop

 

[spudb...@aol.com]

Now that you mention it, the Harry Potter series was just not an enjoyable fiction, and had Rowling introduced her books in 2021 would they have been as popular? My wife says yes, but nyet. I would have considered using thermobaric weapons to blast them out of the mountains, and I would have deliberately pushed back on Pakistan's ISI. But as you have indicated,  paraphrasing, "so what?"  Allow me to ask you to consider the phrase, American Interest," as having two factual definitions. One is that it somehow represents the interests of the American public. The second definition is one that considers policies are now made by the members of the boards of global, woke, corporations. This means that most all areas of the  Ruling Class are basically made the wealthiest. What follows in Webster's definition of woke, just to avoid any confusion? 

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woke

Articles to support my claim.

https://nypost.com/2021/03/04/americas-elites-are-waging-class-war-on-workers-and-small-biz/

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2021/02/02/oligarchy-knows-class-warfare-real-fight-why-dont-liberals

https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/area/center/corporate/fall2020_paper_grossmannmatt_10-29-20.pdf

So, to your displeasure I am an American Nationalist with an eye on US technology and manufacture. I am against globalism as an economic and political order. I am purportedly, on the side of the US middle class versus the narcissitic rich. Yeah, I am well aware of what Smoot-Hawley did to the world in 1930. As you indicated I am but a particle (paraphrasing) on an amoeba's ass in the scheme of things. This is so true. On my Globalism class war claim, I believe through the failures of these elites, American could actually split.  

-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com>
To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: goldenfield...@gmail.com <goldenfield...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2021 7:27 pm
Subject: Re: Afghanistan papers

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 7:10 PM spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 > with the hindsight we possess now, had I been chief bozo back in 2001, this wouldn't have pleased you, but it would have ended the jihad in its current shape.

 

I'ma sure we'd all like to hear a few specifics on your proposal. If you had been the Minister Of Magic, sorry, I mean the President, back in 2001, what form of Dark Magic would you have used to curse the Taliban. One of Harry Potter's unforgivable curses?

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis 

kop

 

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.

[John Clark]

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 8:11 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

> I would have considered using thermobaric weapons to blast them out of the mountains,

I asked for your solution to win the war in Afghanistan and turn the country into a stable peaceful democracy, and this is what I get. It's not really surprising, I have long noted that whenever a know-nothing average man starts pontificating on current events he invariably has a solution for all the world's problems, and every one of those solutions is simple, brutal, and above all DUMB. And "all we need is a bigger bomb" is a perfect example of that.

By the way, the US military started using laser guided thermobaric bombs against Taliban cave complexes 19 years ago on March 3, 2002, but it turned out that wasn't the magical spell you were looking for, we still lost the war. The US also used the MOAB in Afghanistan, the largest non-nuclear bomb ever used in warfare, but that wasn't the right magical spell either, we still lost the war.

You claimed that both you and Donald Trump know of a way to defeat the Taliban that neither I or Joe Biden knows about, but all I've actually heard from you is "we've got to get a bigger bomb". Is that it, is that all you got? 

> and I would have deliberately pushed back on Pakistan's ISI.

Do you honestly think the US hasn't been "deliberately pushing back on Pakistan's ISI" for decades?  I want to know what you would do that would be different from what has been done for the last 20 years, and if Donald "would not have permitted" the current situation to have occurred and he also knew about this secret wonderful method of yours, which you implied he did, why the hell didn't he use that's wonderful magical thing during the 4 years he was president? 

 

> I am purportedly, on the side of the US middle class versus the narcissitic rich.

And that's why, using typical Spudboy logic, you support Donald Trump and his historic and ENORMOUS  tax break for the top 1% of the top 1%.  

 

> Yeah, I am well aware of what Smoot-Hawley did to the world in 1930.

 And that's why, using typical Spudboy logic, you support Donald Trump, a self-described "Tariffs Man".  

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis 

yytr

[Henrik Ohrstrom]

The Soviets tried to murder Afghanistan to submission, and failed. 

US is nowhere as violently murderous as the Soviets and Supriya! Killing for peace failed again!

No-one are as good at murdering Afghanis as Afghanis. Not even old school great Britannia could murder enough to make a dent in Afghanistan.

Read Kipling's and Churchills opinions in their respective memoirs. Churchill went as far as suggesting an all out bomb carpet over all of Afghanistan, not to gain any form of control but just simply keep them from leaking out to surrounding countries.

So unless you go on and kill them ALL, violence had failed before you shoot your first wunderbomb.

Much better and where is had a real and now failed (most likely) chance at meaningful change would be education education good business and calm. 

If you can't beat them with guns beat them with prosperity. That is unlike violence self-propelling in a nice direction.

Let's just hope that civilization stayed long enough for some good result.

/Henrik

[John Clark]

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 10:50 AM Henrik Ohrstrom <henrik....@gmail.com> wrote:

> The Soviets tried to murder Afghanistan to submission, and failed. 

US is nowhere as violently murderous as the Soviets and Supriya! Killing for peace failed again!

No-one are as good at murdering Afghanis as Afghanis. Not even old school great Britannia could murder enough to make a dent in Afghanistan.

Yeah, there's a reason Afghanistan has been called the Graveyard Of Empires. Since 2001 the USA has spent 2 trillion dollars fighting the Taliban, for that amount of money we could've given $54,000 to every man, woman and child living in Afghanistan, and in retrospect that might have actually been a better option.

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis 

vcx

[spudb...@aol.com]

Sorry John, I read past what you intended. Do you mean what I would try in 2021, or what I would have tried on Sept 12, 2001?

Ok, here goes in 2001, I would have simply been out for revenge in the sense of an extermination campaign. I would have used thermobarics to the max for a full year to burn them and their supply chain from Pakistan, knowing that when the pathway for re-supply would have been open once more. For this I would have had bases facing Pakistan and the ISI for immediate annihilation. My own though back then and today is we cannot impose our culture successfully on most Muslims. They want Janah, Paradise, they know that life is short and that gain Janah and avoid Gahanim (Gehanna) they must die in battle. 70 virgins, and you know the score. Dealing with the Kuffar moneywise for a few decades, or the Have the rewards of a million years with Allah? Ask Samiya on this list if you need to, an judge by his answer. 

Modern day, I would say that Islam is a faith of power, because if there is no power, how can you know if what you chose merits the favor of Allah or his Wrath? To be "respected" we have to be tougher than nails, and to gain the respect of foes we have to tough and flexible. The Umah (Islamic Community) wants into Janah, and doesn't want the grave or Gahanoim, (sp),. They don't wish to please the Kuffar (non-Muslims, Infidels) but do wish to please Allah. One option that could be taken is that the Muslim clergy fear the Christian modern message of Jesus The Forgiver. The advantage is to attain paradise one doesn't have to be a Shaheed, a Martyr to attain Janah. If Jesus does forgives without fighting and killing, merely by belief, THIS the clergy know is Very Tempting to a large percentage of the Umah!!! Thus, we could see a peeling away of the Jihadist thinking, which the clergy believe is Against Quran, Soonah, and The Bookhari. That kind of innovation might bring Peace.  We do know that Christianity had Jesus as the Condemner to Hell for the First 17 centuries. Because the Churches had the psychological, Keys to the Kingdom they got to be the true Gate Keepers, eh?. Thus we might advance the cause of peace this way-consider it.

For me, being a child of the 20th century I say 

Jesus Saves

Moses Invests 

Elvis Surfs 

I have fore-shortened my blather because 

1. This is an email response not a dissertation

2. I am just a serf after all not a policy maker

3. All this, as 20 years ago was  is out of my hands. Nobody invited me to the planning table. 

I know my place woof-woof.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com>

[spudb...@aol.com]

Henrik, I agree with everything you say, except the education aspect I see as incorrect. What drives the human species is The existential. Islam is currently that most intense attaining Post-Mortem survival, and what one must do to gain post mortem survival, known to the Umah (Muslim community) as  Janah, avoiding a sentence to gahanim(sp) or the permanent annihilations of the grave. Henrik, they won't become willingly, sensible Scandinavians, as we see today. This feature of Scandinavian modern culture is what the anthropologists  of the world term, self-domestication. The Muslim was of thinking is practical-minded, in the sense of, I can spend a few decades disobeying Allah, or I can join Him in paradise for 1 million years. As we Yanks have termed it, it's a no-brainer. I don't want to leave my epistle to you comment without suggesting that the EU must now arm-up, (against Israel? Naw!), against Putin, maybe China within 10 years (Chinese bribe money the middle east happily accepts, everyone), maybe, maybe, Iran. The Shia still hold France responsible for housing Khomeini after the old Shah booted him out. Why resent France?!! Go figure?? It's beyond my intellectual pay grade. 

Biden and his democrats will not defend you. Trump wanted more money for NATO, the democrats don't care, only pleasing their voting base. The Hood doesn't care, The Barrio doesn't care. Silicon Valley & Wall Street probably will be forced to. -My assessment, or fears, or...?

Best fortune to Henrik & the EU, really!

-----Original Message-----
From: Henrik Ohrstrom <henrik....@gmail.com>
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, Aug 19, 2021 10:49 am
Subject: Re: Afghanistan papers

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[Brent Meeker]

On 8/19/2021 2:47 AM, John Clark wrote:

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 8:11 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

> I would have considered using thermobaric weapons to blast them out of the mountains,

I asked for your solution to win the war in Afghanistan and turn the country into a stable peaceful democracy, and this is what I get.

I think I do know how to do that; at least it's what I would try if I were President.  I'd have flooded the country with television sets and broadcasts via satellites with plenty of Islamic content but leaning to the Sufi, plus real world news and science and Hollywood entertainment.  I actually think Western culture, science, literature, philosophy, art is superior in the sense that given exposure and a choice, people will choose it.  Sure, it would take a generation, maybe two, but it would be relatively peaceful and in the end Afghanistan might become an ally.  It's also what I would try with Iran.

Brent

[Brent Meeker]

The total ultimate Afghan war bill is estimated as more than $6.4 trillion, according to the Cost of War Project at Brown University.  That includes the pension and medical costs which will be incurred over the next 80  years.  So we could have given them $164,000 per person.  Or we could have given every American $18,300.

Brent

[John Clark]

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 2:42 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

> Ok, here goes in 2001, I would have simply been out for revenge in the sense of an extermination campaign.

I don't know about that but as much as I hate George W Bush for the Iraq war and his mythical "weapons of mass destruction" I can't really blame him for going into Afghanistan in 2001, I would've done the same thing and I think almost anybody would.  

 

> I would have used thermobarics to

What's with you and thermobarics? Sometimes it can be a mildly useful weapon under very specific circumstances (no wind, confined space, low humidity) but it's certainly no world changer.

> the max for a full year to burn them and their supply chain from Pakistan,

 Supply chain? This isn't World War Two, we aren't talking about tanks, fighter planes and submarines; the Taliban already have five dollar AK 47s,  25 dollar RPGs, improvised explosive devices made with fertilizer and diesel oil, and plenty of domestically produced goat cheese, and that and their silly religion is all they need.  

 

> I would have had bases facing Pakistan and the ISI for immediate annihilation.

Immediate annihilation of who? It's been shown historically that fixed military bases do not work, General Patton said “Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity". The Great wall of China was a wonderful architectural achievement but a failure militarily, so was Hadrian's Wall for the Romans, so was Dien Bien Phu and the Maginot line for the French, and Khe Sanh for the Americans in 1968.

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis 

tf9

[spudb...@aol.com]

That sort of joke was heard during Vietnam as well. If we only gave the Viet Cong xxxx-dollars, etc. This only works in human nature for a bit. The Franks and Celts (French) tried to bribe the in-coming Vikings in the 9th Century. Worked for a while, then, the Vikings came in and took over Northern France and took French wives, and the area became Normandy, and in the next century they invaded Britain and by that time they all spoke French. This lasted right Henry's the 8th court where it had been the official language at Court, Monsieur.

  https://www.worldhistory.org/Viking_Raids_on_Paris/#:~:text=Throughout%20the%209th%20century%20CE,at%20least%2C%20correlated%20with%20it.

What about Afghanistan? Their faith which they would die for as holy martyr's Shaheeds, is basically a plan to sacrifice now, in order to be with Allah in Paradise, for eternity. 
The Shahada is the first of 5 prayers the Faithful say every day. The Shahada is asking Allah to make me a martyr in his holy name. 

https://saudigazette.com.sa/article/529534

For the Muslim this is a chance to live past your own life and have eternity with Allah and family and friends.  Ask Samiya who will give forth an answer, not mine, his answer,  for he is a Muslim scholar. His view won't agree with mine, but this what humans do, disagree and fight. These guys in Afghanistan plan for the very long term indeed. Because logically if one is a believer, why not? White liberals always think that people deep down will possess their values, and that people are all the same. Not always!

But I say, if someone has an ideology, it eclipses the in-take of information, and yeah, this goes for the religious ideologists, ask an anthropologist. 

My only advice is 

1. don't encourage the elites, the boards, of directors especially in making national and international policy. Woke corporations included.

2. Focus on getting money to and expanding the middle class worldwide. Also in the USA. Charity begins at home said John Wycliffe. 

Yeah I know, nag nag nag blather blather, but this is what us idle peasants do.

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thu, Aug 19, 2021 3:56 pm
Subject: Re: Afghanistan papers

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[spudb...@aol.com]

my only points are:

They the Taliban did dig caves in the mountains as impregnable forces. So Kaboom.

The Pakistani ISI did as policy run weapons to the Taliban which are in Western Pakistan. 

The French, many who sided with Hitler after June 1940, wanted their empire to continue. Practically they had bled themselves empty during WW1. 

The Wall of China did work for centuries. So did Hadrian's Wall for 400 years. 

You do know I was suggesting the placing of forces in West Pakistan and turn any arms shipments to frags, Kaboom again. 
Vietnam War? I am with you. 

I would have been out for revenge 20 years ago, never nation building. The Muslims want Paradise and nations ordered Sharia are the means to further this goal. 

Their values are to get past death, and playing foolish games with the Kufar (non-Muslims) are secondary, tertiary, quaternary. Your way is preservation, theirs's is through faith, for the Christians is Jesus. Mine is, something like this, mechanism wise....

 

https://turingchurch.net/the-infrared-memory-of-the-universe-hints-at-future-akashic-physics-3f9a072f0ca6

https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/dyson-spheres

https://medium.com/the-infinite-universe/quantum-scrambling-could-lead-to-resurrection-of-the-dead-e5cf3e668119

Your way may work (cold preservation) mine is way out past the present and relies on human survival (post-human peeps) and a significant budget for the Dyson Sphere. Maybe the ancient Egyptians should be revived first? Sun worshippers, surely not the Aztecs! 

-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com>
To: spudb...@aol.com
Cc: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com>; goldenfield...@gmail.com <goldenfield...@gmail.com>

Sent: Thu, Aug 19, 2021 4:21 pm
Subject: Re: Afghanistan papers

[smitra]

On 19-08-2021 21:21, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote:
> On 8/19/2021 2:47 AM, John Clark wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 8:11 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:
>>

>>> _> I would have considered using thermobaric weapons to blast them
>>> out of the mountains,_

>>
>> I asked for your solution to win the war in Afghanistan and turn the
>> country into a stable peaceful democracy, and this is what I get.
>
> I think I do know how to do that; at least it's what I would try if I
> were President. I'd have flooded the country with television sets and
> broadcasts via satellites with plenty of Islamic content but leaning
> to the Sufi, plus real world news and science and Hollywood
> entertainment. I actually think Western culture, science, literature,
> philosophy, art is superior in the sense that given exposure and a
> choice, people will choose it. Sure, it would take a generation,
> maybe two, but it would be relatively peaceful and in the end
> Afghanistan might become an ally. It's also what I would try with
> Iran.
>
> Brent

For people to be to choose anything freely would have required making
sure intimidation by the Taliban would be stopped. That would have
required sending in enough soldiers so that the international force
would have a presence in every inhabited part of the country. In 2002
the Afghans wanted to have more soldiers on their soil so that they
could get rid of intimidation by Taliban and other armed groups.

The reason why the mission failed was that we didn't sent in enough
soldiers. This allowed the Taliban to have a presence in villages with
no presence of international forces or the national army. They would
move out when soldiers were on their way to move in, making it clear to
the local population that they would be killed if they dare to
collaborate with the soldiers. They would then move into other
unoccupied villages, kill people who collaborated with the national army
or international soldiers, set up their bomb factories etc.

The Taliban did have hideouts in the mountains but they could not live
their indefinitely, they would have run out of supplies eventually. So,
access to villages was crucial and the small number of soldiers of no
more than a few hundred thousand made it possible for the Taliban to
succeed.


It would have required a few million soldiers to completely pacify
Afghanistan, which would be been easy to do for the World community.
Hardly any military actions would be needed, because the insurgents
would be denied access to villages for supplies. bomb factories etc. as
everything would be occupied. Then the Afghans would be able to pursue
the efforts needed needed to build up a democratic society.

The reason we could not do this, was because we were biased against
sending in a very large occupation force, based on a totally flawed
understanding of history (e.g. that the Soviets and British failed
there) Also we started the Iraq war which would have made it much more
difficult to do something large w.r.t. Afghanistan.

The Soviets failed in Afghanistan, but because of their large number of
soldiers, but because they were forcing a ideology on the Afghans that
the Afghans did not support. Large number of forces does, in general,
help to suppress an insurgency. For example, the Soviets successfully
suppressed the uprisings in Hungary and Czechoslovakia by sending in
large numbers of forces. The Chinese have successfully repressed the
population in Tibet and now also in Xingjian using a large number of
force. So, even if you do attempt to push an ideology down the throats
of people against their will, that can actually succeed.

So, if we don't impose anything on the population, if the population by
and large supports a large and strong international presence, then a
mission involving a large force is pretty much guaranteed to succeed in
at least the limited goal of stabilization and pacifying the country.
Then with the country completely pacified, the population could set up
their institutions and build up an inclusive democratic system.

Saibal

[spudb...@aol.com]

Agrees with Smitra on Afghanistan. But also basically his unwritten observation that if the US really wants to win wars, you do it WW2 style, draft millions, and then don't hold back. But I look unlike his observations that in 2001 we should have gone nutso with a punishment campaign. We cannot nation build unlike Smitra's suggestion, and we would have been taking causalities all the time we held ground in Afghanistan , because the Umah (Muslim community) doesn't mind being holy martyrs. I don't know about Brent's suggestion about propaganda?  What can we offer the Faithful versus eternity in Paradise with Allah? The Jihadis do understand massive pain, for a while, and then take their kufr enemies, seriously. No pain, no gain, even against the Jihadis. 

-----Original Message-----
From: smitra <smi...@zonnet.nl>
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Aug 20, 2021 1:04 pm
Subject: Re: Afghanistan papers

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