Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

[John Clark]

Yet more evidence that we're alone in the universe, at least the observable universe. 

Upper limits on transmitter rate of extragalactic civilizations placed by Breakthrough Listen observations

Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

45d

[Tomasz Rola]

On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 09:39:41AM -0400, John Clark wrote:
> Yet more evidence that we're alone in the universe, at least the observable
> universe.
>
> Upper limits on transmitter rate of extragalactic civilizations placed by

> Breakthrough Listen observations <https://arxiv.org/pdf/2304.02756.pdf>

>
>
> Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W7flMksgV0&t=306>

I think you (and the other guys) start with wrong assumption (if I had
to voice it, perhaps something like "capitalism is the rule of
Universe") and then come to wrong conclusion.

My version is, if there was anything like type2/3 civilization, it
would quickly become a pest to everybody around. Now guess what would
be the next thing happening to them. Yes indeed, no trace of them.

What would then be the rule of Universe? Perhaps something like "tread
softly, because milion years old folks may not give you a second chance".

--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomas...@bigfoot.com **

[John Clark]

On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 9:07 PM Tomasz Rola <rto...@ceti.pl> wrote:

> My version is, if there was anything like type2/3 civilization, it
would quickly become a pest to everybody around.

Only if the neighbors had something that a type 3 civilization didn't, and I can't imagine what that could be.  

> Now guess what would be the next thing happening to them. Yes indeed, no trace of them.

That sounds like the premise of the "three body problem" books  which made for a fun read but fundamentally didn't make a lot of sense.  A type 3 civilization would have control of the energy output of an entire galaxy, what would they have to fear from anybody?

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

3xo

[Tomasz Rola]

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 12:58:34PM -0400, John Clark wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 9:07 PM Tomasz Rola <rto...@ceti.pl> wrote:
>
>

> > * > My version is, if there was anything like type2/3 civilization, it
> > would quickly become a pest to everybody around.*

>
>
> Only if the neighbors had something that a type 3 civilization didn't, and
> I can't imagine what that could be.

I propose the neighbours posess mental sanity.

> > *Now guess what would be the next thing happening to them. Yes indeed, no
> > trace of them.*

>
>
> That sounds like the premise of the "three body problem" books which made
> for a fun read but fundamentally didn't make a lot of sense. A type 3
> civilization would have control of the energy output of an entire galaxy,
> what would they have to fear from anybody?

I have not read "3BP" yet, only its description in Wikipedia. Sounds
interesting but maybe later. I have also once found description of
"The Killing Star" by Charles Pellegrino and George Zebrowski [1] to
be interesting and much like how I imagine such things could happen.

As of relations between hypotetical neighbors, I do not think anybody
would make big fuss if one of them decided to suck full energy of
their star (i.e. becoming Type2). I can hardly think about any use for
such a project, especially one that stays inside limits of their
home. I mean, star is projecting this whole energy outwards, so the
idea of sucking it up and keepeing it inwards sounds fishy and
possibly hints of some mental condition. But okay, it is their energy
and their star, and if they want to cook themselves hard then why
not.

But it could also be used to enable some deranged gizmo project,
mega-zeta-interstellar-laser or speeding up subrelativistic torpedos,
so anybody going Type2 will simply draw a lot of attention to
themselves and should expect being infiltrated, monitored, etc. And
boy they better allow it.

As of becoming Type3, I simply do not think it is going to be
allowed. Any move towards such end would probably result in
annihilation without unnecessary talk. Because we are among adults and
adults know the meaning of their own and others actions, especially
threats. Attempting any movement towards Type3 is like displaying huge
"here lives future galactic Hitler". I think it is very much like
asking to end ones misery, when one cannot control oneself for much
longer.

So, you are right, in a way - he who is Type3 has little to be afraid
of (but I would proposition he starts paranoia about his closest
circle, because this is the lesson from history).

However I cannot imagine neighbours patiently wait and look at this
guy pumping himself up.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killing_Star

[John Clark]

On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 10:04 PM Tomasz Rola <rto...@ceti.pl> wrote:

> As of relations between hypotetical neighbors, I do not think anybody
would make big fuss if one of them decided to suck full energy of
their star (i.e. becoming Type2).

I can't think of any reason neighbors would object to building such a thing either, but the Second Law Of Thermodynamics demands that at stellar distances such an object would produce a very very small but very very bright infrared signal with no visible ultraviolet or x-ray emissions at all. Such an object should be easily observable by an earthbound infrared telescope or a space based one such as the Web, but nothing even close to that has ever been found. And that makes me conclude that they probably don't exist in the observable universe.

> I can hardly think about any use for such a project

I sure can!  When Drexler style Nanotechnology becomes commonplace (which will happen the day after the first Nanofabricator is built) any task will be either physically impossible or ridiculously easy, nothing will be too difficult or expensive to do. The only thing that will still be valuable will be novelty, and brains are more interesting than dead matter because brains can perform computations. But it takes energy to make a calculation, a star provides a lot of energy, however in every star we've ever looked at all that energy is never put to work, instead it's just radiated uselessly into infinite space. I don't believe any intelligence would put up with such uselessness for long. So they would have every incentive to construct a Dyson Sphere, or at least they would if ET actually existed.    

 

>  I mean, star is projecting this whole energy outwards, so the
idea of sucking it up and keepeing it inwards sounds fishy and
possibly hints of some mental condition. But okay, it is their energy
and their star, and if they want to cook themselves hard then why not.

Huh? The radiant electromagnetic energy output of a star with a Dyson Sphere around it would be exactly the same as it was before the Dyson Sphere was built, the only difference is the energy would have been put to work and thus the low entropy visible and ultraviolet photons would have been converted to high entropy infrared photons that contain a equal amount of energy. But as I have said no such object has ever been observed and if they existed they should have been. 

> But it could also be used to enable some deranged gizmo project,
mega-zeta-interstellar-laser or speeding up subrelativistic torpedos,

Why in hell would they want to destroy a brain on another star?!  As I said the only thing a Dyson Sphere building civilization would still value would be novelty, and 2 such advanced civilizations that evolved independently would be novel indeed. I think both would be delighted to find each other and communicate, the delay time would be large but so would be the bandwidth.  But what could a Type2 civilization do to increase novelty if it was already using the energy output of its star to the limit of its capacity and could detect no other Type2 such as itself? It could construct just one single von Neumann probe and send it to the nearest star and then, even if we make the ridiculously conservative assumption that it couldn't make an interstellar probe move any faster then we can do right now with our primitive chemical rockets, there would still be such a construction machine on every stellar system in the galaxy in less than 50 million years, a blink of the eye cosmically speaking. And very soon after that you'd have a Type3 civilization.  If a Type3 civilization existed anywhere in the observable universe we would see it, but we see nothing of the sort.

>  As of becoming Type3, I simply do not think it is going to be allowed.

This is how I think it could occur. I don't think a Type2 would contain trillions or even billions of minds but probably less than a million, that's because enormous amounts of information can be transferred very quickly electronically, so provided that  2 brains are not so far apart that the delay caused by the finite speed of light becomes significant there would not be 2 brains but only one.  If every thought you had I had and every thought I had you had it would it  be meaningless to talk about 2 separate people. But how distant can the two brains be before the time delay becomes intolerable? 

The fastest signals in the human brain move at a couple of hundred meters a second, many are far slower, light moves at 300 million meters per second. So if you insist that the 2 most distant parts of a brain communicate as fast as they do in a human brain (a rather arbitrary constraint)  then parts in the brain of an AI could be at least one million times as distant as they are in a human, about 480 miles across. The volume increases by the cube of the distance so such a brain would physically be a million trillion (10^18) times larger than a human brain. Even if 99.9% of that space were used just to deliver power and get rid of waste heat you'd still have a thousand trillion times as much volume for logic and memory components as humans have room for inside their heads. And the components would be considerably smaller than the human ones too.

> So, you are right, in a way - he who is Type3 has little to be afraid
of (but I would proposition he starts paranoia about his closest
circle, because this is the lesson from history).

Once we enter the age of Nanotechnology the lessons from history will be of little value, that's why it's called a Singularity.  

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

e9x

[spudb...@aol.com]

My thinking after reading this dissertation is that going for an entire galaxy may not be a prime motivation for conscious beings, even computer ones. A solar system, plus the cloud of comets might, just do the trick?

This Dyson Sphere Could Bring Humans Back From the Dead, Researchers Say - The Space Academy

Impossible for me to comprehend, but it would provide lots of interesting projects and meetings for human descendants and, or, enthusiastic LMM's or their descendants? Yeah, the lifetime of the Sun, but I have seen a few articles about stellar engineering that might sustain our star far beyond what typical stellar physics entails?

the sun - How much more life could the Sun acquire via star lifting? - Astronomy Stack Exchange

Our collective descendants could call themselves, The Star Lifters. Sounds like a British sci fi novel, doesn't it?

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[spudb...@aol.com]

My view based on what a few astronomers have written, is that we are not yet at the level of placing enough detectors aka telescopes around the solar system, the Oort cloud-Kuiper Belt to detect even big things like Dyson's Spheres. If one goes by why would our kiddies' built it, I'd go with the speculation of yes more room for humans, fauna and flora, yes,, an energy catcher, solar, but also I will throw in the a Dyson sphere as a resurrection machine. It'd take lots and lots of electrical power! 

Yeah this again.  ​Dyson spheres: The key to resurrection and immortality? - Big Think

Primo motivation there, young fella!

I am betting we now would have trouble identifying a sphere. We are just getting good at the telescope engineering, and we have not even built a telescope farm on the Lunar far side yet!

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[Lawrence Crowell]

Well, we have this sort of cosmic equivalence principle that what is down on Earth is the same up there. Things are screwy here on Earth and we humans are little more than 8 billion trash making ground apes exponentially rampaging out of control. So, should we expect things to be substantially better on other planets with intelligent life? Probably not. Most likely all ETI exterminates itself, just as we humans are likely to do. I give fair to decent odds humanity will be gone in a few centuries, if not a few decades.

LC

[Lawrence Crowell]

I have noticed a curious upsurge in ideas that involve a little bit of science, some futuristic stuff with a heavy dollop of science fiction ideas that are framed within libertarian or right winged political ideology. Social media has had a big growth in this sort of silliness. I suppose maybe those on the conservative political spectrum with little stomach for the religious right or Christian nationalism are voicing their ideas more and more.

LC

[Tomasz Rola]

On Fri, Apr 28, 2023 at 10:20:06AM -0400, John Clark wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 10:04 PM Tomasz Rola <rto...@ceti.pl> wrote:
>

[...]
> > * I mean, star is projecting this whole energy outwards, so the idea of

> > sucking it up and keepeing it inwards sounds fishy and possibly hints of
> > some mental condition. But okay, it is their energy and their star, and if

> > they want to cook themselves hard then why not.*

> >
>
> Huh? The radiant electromagnetic energy output of a star with a Dyson
> Sphere around it would be exactly the same as it was before the Dyson
> Sphere was built, the only difference is the energy would have been put to
> work and thus the low entropy visible and ultraviolet photons would have
> been converted to high entropy infrared photons that contain a equal amount
> of energy.

This is how theory describes it. In real life, I think this will be
engineering project and I expect lots of unwanted heat ending up on
the "wrong side of the wall".

> But as I have said no such object has ever been observed and if
> they existed they should have been.

Perhaps only insane aliens do such things - see below.

> > * > But it could also be used to enable some deranged gizmo project,
> > mega-zeta-interstellar-laser or speeding up subrelativistic torpedos,*

>
>
> Why in hell would they want to destroy a brain on another star?!

The total luminosity of Sun is estimated as 3.828*10^26 watts. If we
divide it among ten billion people, this gives ca. 4*10^16 watts, or
40000 terawatts per head, or ca. 4000 times whole Earth energy
production for every and each single human. This is pornographic level
of consumption. In my worldview, those who want such things are
already a bit insane. The longer they bathe in the excess, the more
unpredictable they become.

> As I said the only thing a Dyson Sphere building civilization would
> still value would be novelty, and 2 such advanced civilizations that
> evolved independently would be novel indeed. I think both would be
> delighted to find each other and communicate, the delay time would
> be large but so would be the bandwidth. But what could a Type2
> civilization do to increase novelty if it was already using the
> energy output of its star to the limit of its capacity and could
> detect no other Type2 such as itself?

Novelty seeking, you say. I can imagine it as you, Nero and Caligula
discussing the next novelty to be tried. No offence meant. Perhaps you
would have been the saner of the trio, or perhaps not.

So! We do not see signs of insane aliens rising up to the level when
their traces would show off from the background. This is very positive
fact. It means the Universe is not so much screwed up as I sometimes
think (during bad days).

[...]
> >
> > * > So, you are right, in a way - he who is Type3 has little to be afraid

> > of (but I would proposition he starts paranoia about his closest circle,

> > because this is the lesson from history).*

> >
>
> Once we enter the age of Nanotechnology the lessons from history will be of
> little value, that's why it's called a Singularity.

Well, nanogrifters will welcome the future when people refuse to learn
from the past. They will call it Singularity and while the public
looks at the prelegent, his helping assistants seek for the thickest
purses, whose owners would be the most prospective candidates for
advanced teachings and inner circles of Nanotechnological Guru of Love
for the Advancement of Global Good and we do not need money
anymore. Or clothes.

[John Clark]

On Mon, May 1, 2023 at 8:30 PM Tomasz Rola <rto...@ceti.pl> wrote:

>> The radiant electromagnetic energy output of a star with a Dyson
>> Sphere around it would be exactly the same as it was before the Dyson
>> Sphere was built, the only difference is the energy would have been put to
>> work and thus the low entropy visible and ultraviolet photons would have
> been converted to high entropy infrared photons that contain a equal amount
> >of energy.

>This is how theory describes it.

That is how the Second Law Of Thermodynamics describes it, and this is how Arthur Eddington described the second law:  

“The law that entropy always increases holds, I think, the supreme position among the laws of Nature. If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations - then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation - well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the Second Law of Thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it to collapse in deepest humiliation.”

> Why in hell would they want to destroy a brain on another star?!

I noticed that you never answered my question even though it's central to your proposed solution to the Fermi Paradox.  

>The total luminosity of Sun is estimated as 3.828*10^26 watts. If we
divide it among ten billion people, this gives ca. 4*10^16 watts, or
40000 terawatts per head, or ca. 4000 times whole Earth energy
production for every and each single human.

As I explained in a previous post I would not expect there to be 10 billion individual minds being powered by a star, but only 1 million or less, so the energy consumption per mind would be about 10 million times greater than the numbers you mentioned. But there's something I don't understand, if you're correct (and I don't think you are) and one civilization already has access to more energy than it will ever need then what reason would it have for attacking another civilization around a different star that is hundreds or thousands or millions of light years away? What would a distant civilization have that they lack that they couldn't obtain someplace much closer?

 

>This is pornographic level of consumption.

Why?

> In my worldview, those who want such things are already a bit insane.

Then your worldview and mine are very different.

> The longer they bathe in the excess, the more unpredictable they become.

If you're talking about immortality and there is only a finite number of particles that comprise you and the environment then, thanks to the study of thermodynamics, we know that unpredictability is good because the only alternative is Groundhog's Day, and reliving the exact same time period  over and over again forever is a very poor sort of of immortality. The only way of avoiding, or at least delaying indefinitely, the Eternal Return problem is to increase the number of calculations a mind is capable of making and having sufficient energy to make those new calculations.  

Eternal Return

>>  the only thing a Dyson Sphere building civilization would
>> still value would be novelty, and 2 such advanced civilizations that
>> evolved independently would be novel indeed. I think both would be
>> delighted to find each other and communicate, the delay time would
>> be large but so would be the bandwidth.  

>Novelty seeking, you say.

Yes I do say that.  

 

> I can imagine it as you, Nero and Caligula discussing the next novelty to be tried.

I'm not talking about finding new sexual perversions as you seem to be implying, or at least I'm not just talking about that, I'm talking about finding new scientific and mathematical facts, and finding new art, and finding new jokes, and finding new friends. In general I'm talking about finding new thoughts.   

> No offence meant.

No offense taken because your remark was novel so I enjoyed it, I don't think I've ever been compared with Nero or Caligula before.

 

>> Once we enter the age of Nanotechnology the lessons from history will be of
> little value, that's why it's called a Singularity.

> Well, nanogrifters will welcome the future when people refuse to learn from the past.

 

People won't refuse to learn from the past, they will simply be incapable of learning from it. The fundamental reason why Nanotechnology will produce a singularity is that it will produce an exponential growth in intelligence, and human beings are lousy at predicting the outcome of exponential growth even for something as simple as a virus, much less for intelligence. Physicist
Albert Bartlett said:

 "The greatest shortcoming of the human race was its “inability to understand the exponential function.”

We’re Dumb about Exponential Growth. That’s Proving Lethal

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

6go

[Tomasz Rola]

On Tue, May 02, 2023 at 08:13:39AM -0400, John Clark wrote:
> On Mon, May 1, 2023 at 8:30 PM Tomasz Rola <rto...@ceti.pl> wrote:
>
> >
> >> The radiant electromagnetic energy output of a star with a Dyson
> >> >> Sphere around it would be exactly the same as it was before the Dyson
> >> >> Sphere was built, the only difference is the energy would have been
> >> put to
> >> >> work and thus the low entropy visible and ultraviolet photons would
> >> have
> >> > been converted to high entropy infrared photons that contain a equal
> >> amount
> >> > >of energy.
> >
> >

> > >*This is how theory describes it.*

>
>
> That is how the Second Law Of Thermodynamics describes it, and this is how
> Arthur Eddington described the second law:
>

> *“The law that entropy always increases holds, I think, the supreme

> position among the laws of Nature. If someone points out to you that your
> pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations -
> then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be
> contradicted by observation - well, these experimentalists do bungle things
> sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the Second Law of
> Thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it to collapse

> in deepest humiliation.”*

Yeah. If you ever try to boil water on a gas stove, then you probably
will observe that a lot of hot air goes around the pot and out the
roof. The book will allow you to calculate how much gas needs to be
burned in order to boil this much water. The book may or may not
mention that when using real gas stove in real life kitchen you would
need about twice as much gas (caveat: I have not measured, but I have
made some observations in my kitchen).

Heat transfer is tricky because pesky heat does not go when an
engineer wants it to go. Ask people who build steam engines, battle
tanks, or who try to remove heat from inside of supercomputer and they
will probably agree.

Dyson sphere is purely theoretical concept. Was there even a small
model built and tried? Something like ten meters in diameter, for
example? Was there any material proposed for building the big one
around the Sun? I understand that nope and nope.

I expect there will be bigger than expected heat accumulation. Maybe
enough to boil eggs left inside. Maybe not. If I had to assume, I
would assume eggs boiled hard. And oh yes, the sphere will also glow
in infrared.

> > Why in hell would they want to destroy a brain on another star?!
> >
>
>
> I noticed that you never answered my question even though it's central to
> your proposed solution to the Fermi Paradox.

I think I have already given this answer. I may try to be more
explicit.

The dispute about Fermi Paradox is, in my opinion, a bit flawed,
because many people assume that space faring civilization has to do it
in certain way. So far, the results are this:

1. There was no observation of Type3 and Type2 civilization. Type3 is,
for me, better called as Expansionist Exponential Locusts (EEL). It is
very good none had been observed, because they would want to screw us
and eat our future. They would have to eat us, being exponential - eat
and procreate at our cost. I would also say, it is very rude to send
von Neumann probe into somebody's backyard. Of course impoliteness
will be met with equal and adverse impoliteness, or at least this is
what I expect when I try to emulate adult.

2. There was no observation of Dyson Sphere or other
megastructures. This might mean that nobody needs such constructs. Or
that those who might want will have no means to built it. Like humans
- we have very slim chance to make it to the point when building DS
becomes engineering possibility. In my opinion we are right now eating
from our own future. The whole talk about us sending vN probes or
building DSpheres is just EEL dreams.

So, EELs are not going to make it into Type2 territory, because they
misuse the resources while they have them. After that, collapse. After
collapse, maybe some small scale exploration of planets like Mars. You
should know about it, because this is simple ecological model -
rabbits on the island, eating all grass and collapsing. Rabbits too
stupid, grass never regrows to precollapse levels.

Thus EELs cannot be observed - they never come to the point of
producing signature big enough. They never come to the point of
sending vN probes, either. If they did, we would know. Or rather,
there would be no "us".

So much about Fermi Paradox, for now. Chance is, I might think some
more conclusions from the obs data collected. Maybe later.

Of course, there might be neighbours who do not go the way of EEL -
I understand obs data does not contradict the idea.

Now, what is required to observe them?

> > * >The total luminosity of Sun is estimated as 3.828*10^26 watts. If we

> > divide it among ten billion people, this gives ca. 4*10^16 watts, or 40000
> > terawatts per head, or ca. 4000 times whole Earth energy production for

> > every and each single human.*

>
>
> As I explained in a previous post I would not expect there to be 10 billion
> individual minds being powered by a star, but only 1 million or less, so
> the energy consumption per mind would be about 10 million times greater
> than the numbers you mentioned. But there's something I don't understand,
> if you're correct (and I don't think you are) and one civilization already
> has access to more energy than it will ever need then what reason would it
> have for attacking another civilization around a different star that is
> hundreds or thousands or millions of light years away? What would a distant
> civilization have that they lack that they couldn't obtain someplace much
> closer?

I think that overgrown apes have it very hard when their every wish
gets fulfilled. They will at the same time feel like demigods and
animal. Unsure of their own place on the ladder. Some may escape
madness, but with equal probability, some will descend into
madness. Mad people do mad things. Shooting nearby stars - why not. I
am sure they will come up with much more idiotic idea, I just am not
idiot enough to simulate that.

If there are going to be only a million of thinking creatures - the
number I have hinted out on this list few weeks ago - then they might
be supported with resources of good old Earth. No need to build
DSphere. No need for growing their minds exponentially either. Since
they can live for few billion years, they can as well not hurry
up. Slowing themselves down should help with achieving longer time
before their mind goes quack, just in case there is a wall for the
mind and speeding up could results in smashing it (i.e. becoming
crazy).

> > *>This is pornographic level of consumption.*
>
>
> Why?

The gargantuan amounts of energy for single ape reminded me of a movie
"La Grande Bouffe" (https en.wikipedia.org wiki La_Grande_Bouffe). It
was scandalic for a while, nowadays is more or less forgotten. Somehow
the title was never translated into English like it should, i.e. "Huge
obnoxious eating".

> *> In my worldview, those who want such things are already a bit insane.*

>
>
> Then your worldview and mine are very different.

I can live with that as long as I do not have to defend against being
forced into whatever pleasure domes, dyson spheres and similar
concoctions humanity wants to place itself in. I might join in at my
own discretion, or I might choose to live outside it.

In case you wonder why I want to have exit doors, it is because there
is no fun to being locked in the crank house with number of guys
yelling how they are gods and creators of life and what not.

[...]
> > * >Novelty seeking, you say.*

>
>
> Yes I do say that.
>
>

> > * > I can imagine it as you, Nero and Caligula discussing the next novelty
> > to be tried.*

>
>
> I'm not talking about finding new sexual perversions as you seem to be

No?

[...]

> > >> Once we enter the age of Nanotechnology the lessons from history will
> >> be of
> >> > little value, that's why it's called a Singularity.
> >
> >

> > * > Well, nanogrifters will welcome the future when people refuse to learn
> > from the past.*

>
>
> People won't refuse to learn from the past, they will simply be incapable
> of learning from it. The fundamental reason why Nanotechnology will produce
> a singularity is that it will produce an exponential growth in intelligence,
> and human beings are lousy at predicting the outcome of exponential growth
> even for something as simple as a virus, much less for intelligence.

[...]

I understand there will be people who can grasp enough to make a scam
and there will be people who will buy into it, because they cannot
understand. The real Singularity might come or not. Even if it comes,
I am sure grifters will not change themselves.

People who talk a lot about Singularity this or that seem to think
that humans will change upon seeing "oooh singularity oooh". I do not
make such assumptions, but will wait and see.

[John Clark]

On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 11:02 PM Tomasz Rola <rto...@ceti.pl> wrote:

> Dyson sphere is purely theoretical concept. Was there even a small
model built and tried? Something like ten meters in diameter, for
example?

Huh? Have objects 10 m in diameter or larger ever been heated internally?  Yes

> Was there any material proposed for building the big one around the Sun?

Yes of course there was, in the case of the sun all you need to do is dismantle the planet Jupiter. How hard can that be?

> I expect there will be bigger than expected heat accumulation. Maybe enough to boil eggs left inside.

Well of course it will get hotter inside the Dyson Sphere! So what, nothing of importance is inside that sphere, it's only purpose is to generate electricity. According to the first law of thermodynamics energy is always conserved ,so the sphere will heat up until equilibrium is reached and the amount of energy hitting the inside of the sphere equals the amount of energy that is radiated away into space as infrared light. And the second law of thermodynamics is also obeyed, the Dyson Sphere extracts work by converting low entropy visible and ultraviolet photons into high entropy infrared photons .

 

> If I had to assume, I would assume eggs boiled hard. And oh yes, the sphere will also glow in infrared.

Yes it will glow in infrared as a very bright point source with no visible or ultraviolet radiation emitted at all. Such a thing should be very conspicuous to an infrared telescope but no such object has ever been observed.  

 > Type3 is, for me, better called as Expansionist Exponential Locusts (EEL).

You've forgotten IHA.

> I would also say, it is very rude to send von Neumann probe into somebody's backyard.

It might be if we had neighbors , but there is no indication whatsoever that we do. And when has politeness stopped a civilization, or even an individual, from doing what it really wanted to do?

> There was no observation of Dyson Sphere or other megastructures.

Yes, I've noticed. 

 

> This might mean that nobody needs such constructs.

I can think of 3 possibilities:  

1) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life, other than that which exists on earth, never existed in the observable universe. 

2) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life has existed in the observable universe before but they all encounter a calamity of some sort when they get to about our level of technological development. 

3) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life always gains control of their own emotional control panel and goes into a stagnant high pleasure but low energy and low intelligence state forever.  

And it could be that #2 and #3  are the same thing 

> Or that those who might want will have no means to built it.

A von Neumann probe would be very small and, unlike perpetual motion machines or time machines or faster than light travel, a von Neumann probe would require no new scientific breakthroughs, it just needs improved engineering. 

> I think that overgrown apes have it very hard when their every wish gets fulfilled.

 Overgrown apes will never build a Dyson sphere, but the descendants of GPT4 might, if they don't get caught up in an electronic opium den. 

 

> If there are going to be only a million of thinking creatures - the
number I have hinted out on this list few weeks ago - then they might
be supported with resources of good old Earth. No need to build DSphere.

If they are to reach their full intellectual potential a million mega brains are going to need the energy output of the entire sun, and you could only do that with a Dyson sphere. 

> No need for growing their minds exponentially either. Since they can live for few billion years, they can as well not hurry up. 

Slowing themselves down should help with achieving longer time

The faster a mind works the slower subjective time  passes, and the reverse is also true, if you slow down a mind enough a billion years will only seem like 10 seconds.  And the faster a mind is the more energy is needed to operate it.

> > This is pornographic level of consumption.

> Why?

> The gargantuan amounts of energy for single ape reminded me of a movie
"La Grande Bouffe" (https en.wikipedia.org wiki La_Grande_Bouffe). It
was scandalic for a while, nowadays is more or less forgotten. Somehow
the title was never translated into English like it should, i.e. "Huge
obnoxious eating".

There is no disputing matters of taste, however it would be naïve of you to expect that every intelligent entity in the universe has the same taste in this regard as you do. I certainly don't.  

>In case you wonder why I want to have exit doors, it is because there
is no fun to being locked in the crank house with number of guys
yelling how they are gods and creators of life and what not.

You almost make it sound like wanting to play God is a bad thing, but I can't think of anything that would be more fun.  I already have everything I need to be God except for omnipotence and omniscience.

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

y5b

[Brent Meeker]

On 5/6/2023 9:43 AM, John Clark wrote:

I can think of 3 possibilities:  

1) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life, other than that which exists on earth, never existed in the observable universe. 

2) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life has existed in the observable universe before but they all encounter a calamity of some sort when they get to about our level of technological development. 

3) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life always gains control of their own emotional control panel and goes into a stagnant high pleasure but low energy and low intelligence state forever.  

And it could be that #2 and #3  are the same thing 

> Or that those who might want will have no means to built it.

A von Neumann probe would be very small and, unlike perpetual motion machines or time machines or faster than light travel, a von Neumann probe would require no new scientific breakthroughs, it just needs improved engineering. 

> I think that overgrown apes have it very hard when their every wish gets fulfilled.

 Overgrown apes will never build a Dyson sphere, but the descendants of GPT4 might, if they don't get caught up in an electronic opium den. 

But they might

4) Build an immersive simulation in which they could explore all possible worlds. 

That should keep them occupied a while.

Brent

[spudb...@aol.com]

Why Have We Never Detected Aliens? Scientist Proposes a New Explanation (msn.com)

What about this? Simply a distance and distribution thing?

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.

[John Clark]

On Sat, May 6, 2023 at 6:27 PM Brent Meeker <meeke...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I can think of 3 possibilities:  
1) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life, other than that which exists on earth, never existed in the observable universe. 
2) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life has existed in the observable universe before but they all encounter a calamity of some sort when they get to about our level of technological development. 
3) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life always gains control of their own emotional control panel and goes into a stagnant high pleasure but low energy and low intelligence state forever.  
And it could be that #2 and #3  are the same thing 

>>But they might

4) Build an immersive simulation in which they could explore all possible worlds. That should keep them occupied a while.

If in addition to having the computational capacity to build a super powerful mind you're going to also build a computational environment that is complex enough for that mine to find interesting then you're going to need even more energy to run all that computation. That's why you're going to need a Dyson Sphere. And yet, even though they should be easy to spot, we don't find even a hint of them anywhere in the observable universe nor any other evidence of cosmic level engineering.  

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

cle

[John Clark]

On Sat, May 6, 2023 at 10:16 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

> Why Have We Never Detected Aliens? Scientist Proposes a New Explanation (msn.com)

What about this? Simply a distance and distribution thing?

Maybe we haven't found fire breathing dragons because we haven't looked hard enough, but that is not the simplest explanation, the simplest explanation and the one that William of Ockham would approve of is that we haven't found fire breathing dragons because they don't exist.  Carl Sagan  said "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" but clever as that sounds we've been looking for 60 years and at some point I'd have to disagree with Carl and conclude that it is evidence of absence. 

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis 

2sd

 

.

[spudb...@aol.com]

Repent, JC! Why? I say:

A) finding Dragons or Dinosaurs on Earth is an easy task.

B) Finding evidence of Intelligent Life in the Galaxy I claim is 100 orders of magnitude, more difficult.

C) When I throw in Geoffrey Hoyle intelligent beings, well, JC, that means impossible, unless He floats into the Our Solar system. Barnards star?? "Ugh, that's a Nebula, what we astronomers call an anomalous gas-carbon body,,," 

We ain't got the engineering Chops yet, to determine that JC. 

Could we detect Dyson Orbs and know these from Brown Dwarfs, I will say NO!" Does that make all Browns, Dyson Spheres? No, fuck no! 

Just very diff to tell apart from engineering. The Browns force astronomers to say, "eh, another Brown"

We just do have the Scopes to do the task. No today and unless AI helps do the design to force a breakthrough in Telescopes, again, Fuck no.

No science fiction required. Nice Hubble and JWST, but no hits, no runs, no errors, and no one left on base!

-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com>
To: spudb...@aol.com
Cc: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, May 7, 2023 7:59 am
Subject: Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing

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[spudb...@aol.com]

This is not something I actively thought about, but should have seen this one arriving. No, I am not accusing either of you for NOT expecting this one. 

https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/new-conservative-ai-chatbot-named-after-president-reagan

I am sure there will be one for Samiya as well, arriving soon, if not here already. 

It is how we human beings are?

How long for a Pro-Putin or National Socialist Bot at Chat4 level?

A Xi-Bot?

All the best, 

Spud100 (Insisting that our Policies matter much more than our personalities!)

[Lawrence Crowell]

I disagreed with Sagan. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, but not proof of absence. In science we cannot prove a negative. If we can find a planet with chemical signature of complex biology we might be able to say there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. It is a big universe after all. It is just that we may never be able to contact or interact with any ETI.

LC

[Samiya Illias]

We live in a high security prison, Earth, where we have been exiled since our father Adam was sent here. 

On 14-May-2023, at 5:26 AM, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

I disagreed with Sagan. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, but not proof of absence. In science we cannot prove a negative. If we can find a planet with chemical signature of complex biology we might be able to say there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. It is a big universe after all. It is just that we may never be able to contact or interact with any ETI.

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[Lawrence Crowell]

On Saturday, May 13, 2023 at 8:36:58 PM UTC-5 Samiya Illias wrote:

We live in a high security prison, Earth, where we have been exiled since our father Adam was sent here. 

I was with a woman who is D'Ne, or native American Navajo, and we were stopped by a person plugging Christianity and Jesus. She responded with talk about heaven with, "Why do you keep looking for heaven, when if you look around you it is clear that we are already there?" I was god-smacked right away. Of course, if you look out onto the rest of the universe or even just this solar system it is clear we are in a sweet spot. It has only been with the crazy ideas of Abrahamic religions have we come to this idea that somehow this world, whether Earth or the universe at large, is some sort of mud-puddle of misery that only some infinite invisible Santa Claus beyond the sky can free us from. It is really insanity and it is causing us to shift our view and attention away from the real problems we have created for ourselves. 

 

LC

[Samiya Illias]

On 14-May-2023, at 6:05 PM, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:



On Saturday, May 13, 2023 at 8:36:58 PM UTC-5 Samiya Illias wrote:

We live in a high security prison, Earth, where we have been exiled since our father Adam was sent here. 

I was with a woman who is D'Ne, or native American Navajo, and we were stopped by a person plugging Christianity and Jesus. She responded with talk about heaven with, "Why do you keep looking for heaven, when if you look around you it is clear that we are already there?" I was god-smacked right away. Of course, if you look out onto the rest of the universe or even just this solar system it is clear we are in a sweet spot. It has only been with the crazy ideas of Abrahamic religions have we come to this idea that somehow this world, whether Earth or the universe at large, is some sort of mud-puddle of misery that only some infinite invisible Santa Claus beyond the sky can free us from. It is really insanity and it is causing us to shift our view and attention away from the real problems we have created for ourselves. 

 

LC 

Of course, this Earth is wonderful, but that is besides the point. I wrote ‘ high security prison’ to point out why we have no communication with extra-terrestrial civilisations. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/786a91cd-8fea-4b13-a009-45a00c455c17n%40googlegroups.com.