Stem Cells out of wisdom teeth

[Mega]

Hi everyone,

I may have to get a wisdom tooth removed someday...

I remember it was said that there are stem cells in the pulpa / or in a gum pocket.


From what I read from google, it doesn't seem to be stem cells, but cells that can be induced pluripotent stem cells with high efficiency... Other articles sound like there actually are stem cells ready-to use. One article said it is adult stem cells, which are somewhat differentiated, so they can only form bones and certain other tissues...

Has anyone read about that?

If they actually are adult stem cells, can I take them, desinfect them and put them into Hela/A431/CHO medium and grow them? Without induction they may not grow into a tooth again, but maybe they divide?

Best,
Andreas

[Daniel C.]

On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 4:44 PM, Mega <masters...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If they actually are adult stem cells, can I take them, desinfect them and
> put them into Hela/A431/CHO medium and grow them? Without induction they may
> not grow into a tooth again, but maybe they divide?

I don't know enough to comment on the stem cell issue. However, I can
say that you should never try anything with your own cells. The risk
of giving yourself cancer (or something worse) are too high.

-Dan

[Nathan McCorkle]

Unless you already have a life-threatening disease that only stem
cells will cure...

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[Mega]

Hey, I won't eat them, just would like try to culture them in a cell culture flask... :D

[Enrico]

i don't know but maybe isolating and freeze stem cells is a bit expensive process. But it would be really interesting anyway :)

Enrico

[Alexey Zaytsev]

I think Daniel's got a point. If you prick yourself with a
HeLa-contaminated needle, your immune system should be able to
recognize them and fight back. If you would somehow make your own
cells go immortal in a culture and prick yourself with that, there's
probably a better better chance of these cells growing tumors in your
body.

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 8:54 AM, Mega <masters...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey, I won't eat them, just would like try to culture them in a cell culture flask... :D
>

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[Andreas Sturm]

What if a friend/stranger donates me his wisdom tooth to extract the stem cells? That should be less "dangerous"?

 

 

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[Alexey Zaytsev]

Following this logic, although I have to admit it's based solely on my
speculation, yes. But keep in mind, that working with mammalian cells
still requires a BSL 2 lab. To my understanding, this is mainly
because your cell cultures basically grow without an immune system,
and can easily catch diseases that could also infect you.

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[Daniel C.]

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 1:54 AM, Mega <masters...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey, I won't eat them, just would like try to culture them in a cell culture flask... :D

It doesn't matter. You don't have to ingest the cells (or even
succeed in making them immortal) to introduce a fairly serious risk to
yourself. As someone else pointed out, your immune system normally
recognizes foreign cells and can fight them off because they are
foreign. If you're messing around with cells that came from your own
body, even superficial contact with them could re-introduce them to
your body and your immune system would have no way of telling the
difference between them and your normal, healthy cells.

This is why "never work with cells from your own body" is one of the
more serious/important bio safety rules we have.

-Dan

[Cathal Garvey]

Yep. I had to get vaccinated against Hep just to work with human/monkey
cell lines because they can carry the virus, and you can catch it from
the plates.

[Josiah Zayner]

You should be able to grow many cells in modified media very similar to what HeLa or HEK cells grow in. Just google for protocols some cells have slightly different requirements.

The people discouraging you to work with cells because you might catch a disease are just paranoid and/or have never worked with human cell lines before.
Ask 99% of Scientists why they do cell culture in negative pressure flow hoods and containment and they will say because they don't want the culture to become infected with fungus or bacteria not because they are afraid of catching a disease.

1. Who uses a needle for cell culture?
2. Has there ever been a documented case of someone acquiring a disease from cell culture?
3. You swallow your own cells and other people's cells all the time.


Cathal that is ridiculous. I have worked with cell culture a ton(HEK, HeLa, breast cancer cell lines) and have never had to be vaccinated against anything for that purpose. No one I know has been. EU laws maybe at fault?

[Daniel C.]

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Josiah Zayner <josiah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The people discouraging you to work with cells because you might catch a
> disease are just paranoid and/or have never worked with human cell lines
> before.

Woah, slow down there high-speed. I'm advocating caution and safety
in the face of a real (if remote) possibility. The chance that our OP
will actually give himself cancer is small, but the consequences if it
does happen are unacceptably large and the probable reward from his
work is small to non-existent. Under any risk analysis plan that puts
his plans solidly in the "no-go" category.

> 3. You swallow your own cells and other people's cells all the time.

Your own un-modified cells, sure. Cells you have removed from your
body and messed with are another issue entirely.

> Cathal that is ridiculous. I have worked with cell culture a ton(HEK, HeLa,
> breast cancer cell lines) and have never had to be vaccinated against
> anything for that purpose. No one I know has been. EU laws maybe at fault?

Cathal is both a professional and a well-educated geneticist; I
wouldn't discard his perspective on this issue so lightly.

-Dan

[Josiah Zayner]

Well "hyper-speed" I think maybe you should slow down because the OP never mentioned modifying cells in anyway. Just culturing them. If my reaction is an over-reaction then other people's reaction is an over and way beyond reaction.

The chances of acquiring some virus such a Hepatitis(which is what Cathal said he was vaccinated from) is probably millions of times(obviously a fictious number) more likely outside of cell culture then inside cell culture. I mean first the cells would need to be infected with the virus in an isolated and semi-sterile? environment. If the virus is randomly infecting the cells that you must eat or inject (most Heps are oral or blood transmission correct?) lets be honest here... If someone should be told not to eat or inject their cell culture I think they are beyond the help of a DIYBio Google group.

Many many people on this group are "Professional" and "Well Educated". Many more so than Cathal or you or I. I try and not prejudge people based on what they think of themselves or what others think of them. Instead I let their actions speak for themselves. I have had significant experience in cell culture and I am sure some on this list have had significantly more than me. All I am saying is that people's reactions seem unreasonable for such a trivial thing. Sure, someone injecting themselves with HeLa cells might really end up in a bad position but the same would happen if someone injected themselves or "pricked" themselves with certain strains of bacteria.

Science to me is about _not_ excluding what one does not trust or does not understand. Convincing people that bacteria and mammalian cell culture is safe starts with the people who are knowledgeable, many of us, so it can propagated to those not knowledgeable, many of the general population. If people on this list are not in support of mammalian cell culture I think that is a big problem because it is an easy place DIYBio can eventually progress to. Whether people want to debate about it or not is fine but I don't think it should be deemed unsafe so fast.

[Avery louie]

Not to fan the flsmes, but people did secretly inject people with HeLa and pretty much nothing happened to the healthy ones.

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[Nathan McCorkle]

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 6:41 PM, Avery louie <inact...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Not to fan the flsmes, but people did secretly inject people with HeLa and
> pretty much nothing happened to the healthy ones.

Yes I believe that was through the Put a Life Prisoner To Work program
(that wasn't actually what it was called). Here in Oregon euthanasia
is legal, I wonder if prisoners could offer a service like this? Was
it merely the IP issue that Henrietta Lacks's family brought up in
HeLa (and there was another case with some dude who actually lived
while his tumour cells became famous) that has crushed the business
aspect of prisoner trials?

[Eugen Leitl]

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 09:41:52PM -0400, Avery louie wrote:
> Not to fan the flsmes, but people did secretly inject people with HeLa and
> pretty much nothing happened to the healthy ones.

Related problem space: Tasmanian devil face cancer (and some
potential cases of transmissible cancers in dogs).

[Cathal Garvey]

You seem to be operating under the false impression that all forms of
Hepatitis require blood or even bodily fluids to be transferred for
infection to take place, but that isn't the case. Hep is also simply
the example I chose: if you were working with lung cells, for example,
then the risks might equally include a respiratory virus.

Let me spell it out for you:
1) Viruses replicate within host cells and create more viable viral
particles.
2) Human bodies are designed to recognise and destroy virus particles
and infected cells to contain infection.
3) Thus human bodies generally have a minimum threshold for a given
virus before a first-time infection can take place successfully.
4) Cell lines have no immune system, and a viral infection in-vitro can
generate huge viral titers, which are identical to viruses contracted
from other humans.
5) Many viruses can be contracted from minute skin contamination and
later ingestion, inhalation, or simple exposure to broken/abraded skin
or mucous membranes.

Norovirus comes to mind as a highly infectious, readily transferred
virus that infects the sort of tissue very common in a cell culture
lab: gut epithelia. Human Respiratory Syncytial Virus would probably
replicate happily in lung cell lines, and can cause moderately
dangerous infections in children or immunosuppressed adults. Some
species of virus that cause Hepatitis are quite infectious without blood
contact, though most are thankfully rare in our corner of the world (and
consequently from characterised cell lines, but it was worth a jab all
the same).

You're welcome to do anything that's legal in your area, up to and
including huffing infected blood, but don't get all nurdrage on me for
warning you that it's probably not safe.

[Cathal Garvey]

In isogenic populations like lab mice and some purebred dogs, cancers
can be transmissible because there's no genetic diversity between hosts
by which to distinguish tumour cells.

In humans I don't think there's any population with a shallow enough
gene pool for this to occur, meaning that usually a healthy person can
only "catch" cancer from two sources: themselves, or an identical
twin.

This doesn't apply to oncogenic viruses, which I suspect is behind the
Tasmanian devil cancer and many other transmissible "cancers".

So, injecting HeLa into anyone but Henrietta Lacks is unlikely to
generate tumours unless the immune system of the recipient is
suppressed.

[Brian Degger]

Hela is so different to henrietta lacks it might not wirj in her

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[Josiah Zayner]

That's the issue Cathal, it is safe.
In my post I said _most_ Hepatitises require blood or body fluids transfer. After researching it more Hep A,B,C and D, E, the most common forms, _all_ require ingestion or blood contact. Which further validates my point.

So millions(billions?) of wo/man hours of cell culture are done every year. I searched online and could not find one case of someone being infected with a disease from mammalian cell culture. There are dozens of cases every year of people being infected with bacteria from bacterial cell culture but somehow mammalian cell culture is unsafe? Pets are a much higher probability disease transmission vector than cell culture but no one tells people not to have a cat.

I agree there is a logical transmission trajectory but it is so unlikely I can't see it ever happening with any probability.

Do you or anyone else have any examples of someone being infected with a virus from mammalian cell culture or is this all just opinion?

So let's say a person is doing cell culture moderately correctly, being sterile and storing their culture in closed plates and an incubator but doesn't have a negative pressure flow hood. The only chance a virus would have to infect the cells is when the culture plate is open. So this person would need to have a Hepatitis or Norovirus or &c. floating around their apartment and randomly land on the cells when the culture plate is open? And then this is to say someone is culturing human lung cells in the case of Norovirus, which I think would be a very difficult cell line to obtain for a DIY lab. If people have that much Hepatitis or Norovirus floating around their apartment I don't think they need to be worried about acquiring it from cell culture.

Acquiring a disease from cell culture seems extremely unlikely. I would venture just as likely as someone accidentally culturing a pathogenic bacteria and then infecting themselves with it.

Why when I want to promote DIY Cell culture do people tell me to "slow down high-speed" or stop having "nurdrage"?
Isn't this Google group and mailing list about supporting DIYBio and its new frontiers?

Obviously, precautions need to be taken when doing some research but to purport that it is unsafe because of biases...
How many people responding to this post have even done mammalian cell culture or been trained in mammalian cell culture?
I mean no one is even discussing the relevant topics such as how to avoid bacterial or mycoplasma contamination and other things. Instead a DIYBio group cannot even agree that someone should be encouraged to practice human cell culture for fun.

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[Mega]

Seems there are different opinions...

Although I would have done it in the university, I guess I'm gonna apply the first rule of diy bio: unless you know it's safe, don't do it...

[Cathal Garvey]

Well, in a university with the correct equipment and training, it's not
a big deal if it's not *your* cells. Even then, the risks aren't that
large, but they do exist. Given your institutional affiliation, and a
bit of training, you could by all means work with *other* people's
cells pretty safely. Heck, for a year I was the "Guy that cracks human
ribs just cut out of people to extract the bone marrow". I was using a
pliers and some luer-lock needles to crack and flush cells from the
marrow with PBS or DMEM. Stuck myself with a needle once, too,
post-marrow. I'm not dead yet, but it was nevertheless messy, bloody
and somewhat hazardous work. Not something I'd recommend you do at
home! :)

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[Mega]

Ok, we did some work with Hela Cells, A431 cells and CHO cells, several cytotoxicitiy assays, and so my first impression was like
"hey, I could take some stem cells and do the same in our University lab" ;)

Where do you get human ribs, just for curiosity... Isn't it easier to just take stem cells out of wisdom teeth :D

[Brian Degger]

Mega, 

it wasn't for DIYBio :)

was for research from biopsy/removed bones 

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[Andreas Sturm]

Obviously ;)

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[Andreas Sturm]

Would be kind of strange if a private person would be working with human bones^^

[Cathal Garvey (Phone)]

Recall that I was doing cancer research, not just fishing for stem cells. The ribs were donated by eosohphagectomy patients and we were studying bone metastases.

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