CyanoKnights - Cyanos on Mars - Experiment piggybac at MarsOnemission

[Mega [Andreas Stuermer]]

https://community.mars-one.com/projects/cyano-knights1

Very interesting. Cultivating Cyanos on Mars. Though this is only one of 10 proposed piggybac missions and one will be on board... 

[Ravasz]

I'm representing one of the competitor payloads, lettuceonmars. We originally wanted to send algae too, but had to rule them out because of payload specifications. More info about our porjct ca be found here:
www.lettuceonmars.com

[Dakota Hamill]

Without reading in depth, and not trying to knock that bad-ass project, but why lettuce?  Isn't it completely devoid of almost all nutritional value?  

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[Josiah Zayner]

After reading over a few of those proposed Mars One projects, it seems like a publicity stunt. I originally thought the Mars One Project was cool now it just appears to be nothing more than a very very poorly thought out plan.

Working at NASA there is some overlap between some of the things people propose for Mars One _EXCEPT_ the projects people propose for Mars One don't take into account anything about our current knowledge of Mars and Space Science. Much less how their experiment will ever survive impact. How well do you think your system will survive the cold temperatures, the warm temperatures and for how long? How long with the UV shield last? How will your experiment obtain energy? solar power? What if the solar power is covered in dust, the plants or bacteria would die in a few hours?

Think about it. If sending Lettuce or cyanobacteria to Mars or Earth's Moon would provide us will troves of new Scientific information for Space colonization don't you think NASA or the ESA would be doing it? It won't. All these experiments propose is growing something in an Earth like atmosphere on Mars. If Mars One was serious they would be focusing on a sample return mission or a Moon base first.

The funny things is that most of these experiments can be performed on Earth. It's not that Space Colonization needs more experiments it is that it needs more technology.

Please don't fall for what Mars One is saying. Even if they pick you, your project will never make it to Mars. Sorry. Want to contribute to Space Colonization develop new technologies that relate to sustainability of enclosed habitats.


Josiah Zayner, Ph.D.
NASA Ames Research Center

[John Griessen]

On 12/19/2014 03:09 PM, Dakota Hamill wrote:
> why lettuce?

Oh, the little leafy kinds have plenty of complex flavor,
which suggests some nutri value... and then there's the flavor...

[Patrik D'haeseleer]

On Friday, December 19, 2014 3:23:14 PM UTC-8, Josiah Zayner wrote:

 If Mars One was serious they would be focusing on a sample return mission or a Moon base first.

Or In Situ Resource Utilization. Let's see some DIY ISRU projects first, Let's figure out to extract and store oxygen, water, rocket fuel, and arable soil from a thin CO2 atmosphere and perchlorate-rich dirt. Ideally years *before* any humans set foot on Mars...

Patrik

[Josiah Zayner]

I agree Patrik, completely.

Many people don't know about the perchlorate problem (I assume also Mars One), a recent area of focus of NASA.

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[Yuriy Fazylov]

Regarding cyanobacterium.
A simple search can give them a pair wise comparison for each of the features needed to withstand extraterrestrial environment variables. There isn't a shortage of them either. Look at iGEM entries alone. Cyanobacterium seems like a better way to go because it is a smaller payload. Question is how are they going to control something that doubles in minutes, when it takes minutes to send and receive a set of observations/instructions?

About lettuce: Why pin all your hopes on Mars One?

Did you know that http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_McKay is also trying to grow plants on mars? Mars One was also heading the same way but changed headings on their ambitions. Advocate for your seeds to make the journey with his. I think his experiment was due to take flight around the same time frame. He has not been responsive in past but maybe you will find a way.

Question. Are these common cultivars of lettuce or are these a special breed?

By the way, even perchlorate can be used/metabolized as an energy source. Plus its accumulation near the plant may serve as a water procurement system, as the chemical is hygroscopic.

[Ravasz]

To be honest with you, we are very skeptical about the whole Mars One project. Very. I personally don't think their project will fly, and most of this is just a publicity stunt.

But we thought we can either do nothing and stare at the wall, or we can actually enter the competition and have a chance to send the first life from Earth to Mars. If we succeeded and managed to grow lettuce on Mars, it would be huge! Yes, it has a large chance of failure due Mars One's incompetence, but the chance of success is above 0%. So we think it is very much worth entering. We also need public support to win, so please consider voting for us in social media: www.lettuceonmars.com

There are a number of questions in this stream, let me answer them here:

Dakota:
Q: why lettuce?  Isn't it completely devoid of almost all nutritional value?
It is. Its more of a proof of concept thing. We chose lettuce as it is well studied in closed systems, and so we have a lot of data on what parameters a lettuce growth chamber needs to have. Its also a pretty, leafy plant and its easy to explain why we need to grow it on Mars. There are a bunch of other reasons, if you are interested, I am happy to write a wall of text about it :)


Yuriy:
Q: Why pin all your hopes on Mars One?
We get funding at the university for building a greenhouse for Mars One. Otherwise we don't get funding. Publicity is a great selling point for any organization. We are doing a lot of research on lettuce at the University of Southampton, but this forum would never mention it otherwise.

Q: Are these common cultivars of lettuce or are these a special breed?
We will be using a lab breed, we have a number of candidates. We haven't pinned down our favourite yet, we will start testing them if we win the public support round. We have no funds beforehand.

Josiah:
Q: how their experiment will ever survive impact?
The Mars One lander for 2018 is basically a copy of the already successful Phoenix mission. That achieved a nice, soft landing on Mars and its the flagship project of Mars one, so even if their ludicrous ideas of establishing a colony don't work, this one is actually quite feasible.

Q: How well do you think your system will survive the cold temperatures, the warm temperatures and for how long?
During taxi to Mars, the lettuce seeds will be kept insulated, and their temperature will range between -40 to +35. This is something any plant growing in Canada is accustomed to, seeds certainly survive it without effort. After landing, we will use heaters powered by the solar cells of the lander, and heat our micro-greenhouse. We aim to provide acceptable conditions for the plants for 2 weeks. If we manage to keep them alive for 1 month, that would be a big success.

Q: How will your experiment obtain energy? solar power? What if the solar power is covered in dust, the plants or bacteria would die in a few hours?
If a dust storm occurs then we will lower temperature in the growth chamber, turn off the lighting, and can can switch off almost everything except the heaters. If we can maintain a temperature of 5C, lettuce will easily survive a few days even in complete darkness. The chance of a week-long dust storm is about 30-40%/year on Mars, so we are quite likely to have proper lighting for a 2 week mission.

Q: Think about it. If sending Lettuce or cyanobacteria to Mars or Earth's Moon would provide us will troves of new Scientific information for Space colonization don't you think NASA or the ESA would be doing it?
Funny you should ask that: ESA, NASA, ROSCOSMOS and CNSA have all sent edible plants to space for the sole reason of seeing if they grow or not. So yes, they would be doing it, they are doing it, all of them. Even as I write this, lettuce is growing on ISS. We have a lot of experiments to do on both the Moon and Mars, this is one of them, but since the agencies have limited resources, they are not sending a mission up every week.

Q: Please don't fall for what Mars One is saying. Even if they pick you, your project will never make it to Mars. Sorry. Want to contribute to Space Colonization develop new technologies that relate to sustainability of enclosed habitats.
This is exactly the kind of defeatist attitude space science faces every day. Yes, our project will most likely not make it to Mars. Does that mean we should just do nothing then? We have all the resources for this. The students involved can either go back to playing WoW, or build a greenhouse for Mars. Which one would you prefer?

On Thursday, 18 December 2014 22:56:16 UTC, Mega [Andreas Stuermer] wrote:

[Josiah Zayner]

NASA is not sending plants to the ISS to see if they will grow... Do some research. Geesh. Growing plants in Space was originally done in the 1990s.

You think spending billions of dollars on a 2 week experiment is worth it when the exact same experiment can be done on Earth? Why does your experiment need to be done on Mars? Why not do it on Earth? You put your "micro-greenhouse" outside in a storm and it would be blown over in 5 minutes. These are things that can all be tested on Earth.

I would prefer that you do proper research and have the students invest in something that is real. Can't they do that? Or are the only options Mars One and WoW? What is wrong with WoW anyway? Did you know NASA has a number of ways students can work with them, have you ever sought out those opportunities? There aree soooo many. I am sure the ESA does also. Write a proposal to send something into Space with the ESA!

Have you ever contacted someone from NASA or the ESA to look over your experiments and their feasibility?

Let's say you are chosen when is the planned date this will fly, 5 years? 10 years?

You gave me answers for the heating and energy that were speculative and general. I wanted actual numbers such as milliAmp hours. And those are only surface questions there are many many more that you probably can't answer. How large of a surface area of solar panels will you need to keep the electronics going when under 30% maximal output? 20%? 10%? Running heating elements takes up a decent amount of energy how much energy are you going to need to store to run the heaters for 2 days? What temperatures is the battery going to need to be kept at without it going bad or reducing the output? I wasn't talking about dust storms. I was talking about dust settling on your solar panels, a problem all the rovers deal with. Do you know where their lander is going to land so you know more specifically the temperatures you will face? How quickly can your system respond to temperature fluctuations? Do you know during what Martian season your project will land?

There are basic questions Mars One can't and hasn't told you answers for I assume, and these are some of the first things needed to even plan a mission. Doesn't that set off an alarm? Much less more complicated questions such as how to create redundant hardware systems that are capable of handing certain g-forces and many other environmental and traveling issues.

Despite what people think NASA doesn't just put an arduino connected to LEDs on the ISS. At ~$10,000 / lb to send things to Space, they make sure it is going to work. It costs Millions to develop the electronics that can withstand the rigors of making it to the ISS and functioning as planned much less Mars.

Don't support Mars One. They are lying to you.

Josiah Zayner, Ph.D.

NASA Ames Research Center

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[Yuriy Fazylov]

NASA, brick in the wall, poster child. Telling others to conform to bureaucratic (aka costly & time consuming) standards?

Mars One could be a publicity stunt but it could also be a fledgling organization, an organization that has very little guidance. Just because they are not explicit doesn't mean they aren't worth the attention. No organization is absolute. See if they need a helping hand. What's your strategy, ridicule it?

There are so many NASA projects that still make a debut on their channel but have long been scrapped. Need for spacer footage never seems to astound.

The dust that settles on an installation could just as easily blow off. I mean look at the rovers. They are still at it, last I checked. Or were at it longer than expected. Problems will arise at the one week mark of a 2 week experiment. Right?

>NASA is not sending plants to the ISS to see if they will grow... Do some research. Geesh. Growing plants in Space was originally done in the 1990s.

Yes, but they sure like to ride coattails of organizations, researchers, and universities that still do. They do that even when one of their astronauts does so unofficially.

>You think spending billions of dollars on a 2 week experiment is worth it when the exact same experiment can be done on Earth?

Don't know... Ask NASA's Chris McKay.

>Why does your experiment need to be done on Mars? Why not do it on Earth? You put your "micro-greenhouse" outside in a storm and it would be blown over in 5 minutes. These are things that can all be tested on Earth.

On your way of insulting other people's intelligence, you aren't doing yourself a favor either. I assume that you do understand that the Martian atmosphere is way more sparse than that of earth when you made that remark.

[Josiah Zayner]

Yuriy, I am not trying to be mean, just realistic. I refuse to respond to anymore of your emails. You have no experience in developing experiments for Space or other Planets or Extrasolar bodies so you make lots of conjectures. It also appears you are trying to instigate a flame war.

Understand sending a sample to the Moon is completely different, the sample can be returned, we can analyze the sample for many different genetic, epigenetic, &c effects. The project I think you read about online that was weakly proposed by Chris McKay is not comparable to sending something to Mars.

I am not telling people to conform to any standards. Where did I say that? I am asking people to perform useful Science. I support privatized Space exploration. So do most at NASA, that is why the government is funding SpaceX et al.

The rovers have been hampered by dust _alot_ and understand they have cost Billions to develop. You can't just slap a few solar panels on it and call it a day. Things need to be calculated and prepared for, sending a mission to Mars you can't just _hope_ it works because it's only two weeks. This is what I mean. On Earth I can just try something out and if it doesn't work you can try again. Spending Billions and sending something across our galaxy, it _must_ work. One can't just try again if it doesn't.

Where was I insulting someone's intelligence? I am asking questions that people on the project don't appear to have thought about. If they have they have not made it apparent. I am no expert on Martian Weather and I know the atmosphere of Mars is less dense. I just assumed that if a parachute can blow around in the wind of Mars something that doesn't weigh that much could also be blown over, especially in a severe storm. If you have data and calculations that my assumptions are wrong that's great. That is all I ask, that people test and apply actual data to their experiments.

Just the simplest question, "What type of ground is the experiment going to be placed on and how?" is of extreme importance! Is it going to be in the shade, on a slant, on a rock, will it tip over? Again! These are things that most people randomly proposing an experiment will not think of and so will not design around. That is why I say why not interact with people who do Space Science for a living?

Mars One is not a fledgling organization, SpaceX is a fledgling organization, Mars One is a joke. Forgive me if I am skeptical but evidence does not point to it being a realistic successful organization. Where are they ever going to acquire the billions (or even let's say they do it on a budget of $1 billion) to send something to Mars?

It is nearly 2015 and they plan on sending something to Mars by 2018. They have no detailed plans, no Scientists working on building things for them. Do you honestly believe in 3 years they can go from no employees to a Mars mission with very little financial backing? What rockets will they use? I suggest that people work with organizations that are doing actual Science in Space now, NASA and ESA.

I used to support Mars One, I  thought it was an interesting idea but now I think they are outright lying to people. I refuse to support them anymore and I tell you not to. Yes, I will ridicule Mars One and their projects.

If you have evidence that Mars One is capable of creating a Mars mission in 3 years please let us know. It took NASA 7 years with a fully functional organization and a huge budget.
 

Josiah Zayner, Ph.D.

NASA Ames Research Center

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[Shubham Goyal]

Hi,

My apologies for barging into the discussion. I am not a space scientist, more of a computer scientist who is interested in diybio.

I suggest that people work with organizations that are doing actual Science in Space now, NASA and ESA.

I would also like to add ISRO (Indian Space Research Organisation) to this list. 

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploration_of_Mars:

The Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) launched its Mars Orbiter Mission (MOM) on November 5, 2013. It was successfully inserted into Mars orbit on 24 September 2014. India's ISRO is the fourth space agency to reach Mars, after the Soviet space program, NASA and ESA.[13] India became the first country to successfully get a spacecraft into the Martian orbit on its maiden attempt.[14]

​ISRO provides research grants as well as mentorship and guidance to proposed projects based on merit, of course. And I know for a fact, this is an area they are definitely interested in.

Thanks.

Warmest Regards,

Shubham​

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[Cathal Garvey]

Not to mention China's programme, though I doubt they're as interested
in grant aid to US/EU candidates. :)

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[Ravasz]

Several people are suggesting just approaching the space mission of one country or another and asking for our project to fly. I am afraid it really doesn't work that way. Space agencies, including NASA are very, very protective, and if you tell them you want to design project X for them, then they will not even read your proposal and tell you to get lost. Josiah, you suggested sending my students to NASA for internships. Sadly, if you are not a US citizen, then you are not even allowed to apply to NASA (there are exceptions, but by and large, most internships are not available to people form another country). ESA is a lot smaller organization, and the very few opportunities they provide to engage students are swamped by applicants. So casually mentioning that we could just apply to some proper organization and build our greenhouse does not work I am afraid - hence the number of projects in this competition.

@Josiah:
I don't know why you are suddenly so agressive and wanting to start a flame war. Personal attacks are also unnecessary. When you write "do some research, Geesh" it tells me that you are just keen on insulting others, nothing more. I don't know who hurt you, if it was me then I apologies, I did not mean to offend you. Please calm down.

You wrote a number of questions in your previous e-mail about our project, but with all respect, they show that you haven't even read our 1 page project description. Please do so, all the basics are explained in our webpage and the Mars One page. Have a look here:
www.lettuceonmars.com
http://www.mars-one.com/

Also keep in mind that we are group of students working on this project for 3 months. This includes recruiting team members, and putting together the most basic documents about the project. Don't expect milliamps today. The outline of our project has been approved by teachers at our university and by members of UKSA.

I am very happy to answer future questions you might have, but if you could be a bit more respectful and friendly in you attitude, then we could have a pleasant, constructive conversation over this, which I would very much enjoy. I would like to state again that if I offended you then it was not on purpose, and I am very sorry if I did.

On Thursday, 18 December 2014 22:56:16 UTC, Mega [Andreas Stuermer] wrote:

[Josiah Zayner]

Have you emailed people from ESA or NASA?

If someone emailed me and said they had a great idea for a project(and it was great) and wanted to collaborate with me why would I decline? At least at NASA the resources are never enough so it would be great to have a team working on some things. I work mostly on bacterial engineering or I would offer help.

To me, someone assuming that plants are sent into Space by NASA Scientists only to see if they grow is an insult. Was I a little insulted, yes, maybe. It is an insult to NASA Scientists because it assumes we don't believe the 1990s Mir experiments and our Science is years behind (I will admit it can be a little behind but not that far behind). "Do some research. Geesh." was not meant to be hurtful, if it was I am sorry. It literally means "do some research because it looks like you have not".  There are a number of papers online about the effects of microgravity and UV and even Martian like atmospheres on plant growth. I assumed you didn't read these, if I was remiss, forgive me.

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[John Griessen]

On 12/20/2014 06:53 PM, Josiah Zayner wrote:
> If you have evidence that Mars One is capable of creating
a Mars mission in 3 years please let us know. It took NASA 7 years with
> a fully functional organization and a huge budget.

Sure would be a shocker if MarsOne is first. Even if it IS that,
"Once on Mars, there are no means to return to Earth."

The colonizing "to the death, for life" aspect of the MarsOne project could
shorten it's time frame very much...

[Ravasz]

Q: Have you emailed people from ESA or NASA?
We e-mailed people from UKSA. As a UK student group, this I think is the most reasonable thing to do. They are very supportive and like our project, but cannot fund it. N. B. We have one ESA supported competitor in the Mars One competition, and one supported by DLR.

Q: If someone emailed me and said they had a great idea for a project(and it was great) and wanted to collaborate with me why would I decline?
Because the funds are sadly not available for every great project. I don't find it reasonable to e-mail any space agency and tell them we would send an awesome payload to Mars for a million dollars.

A spot on the Mars One lander is 300K USD / Kg. They pay this for their competition winner. This is what we are after. This does not include developing the payload itself, but if we win, we get funding for that too from other sources. Currently we do everything in our free time and fund it from our pockets. We only gain funding if we win the popularity contest, as that would be nice story and bring huge popularity to anyone putting money into it. Literally all sponsors said this same thing. As humiliating as it is, we have to gather facebook likes and tweet with hashtags instead of doing proper scientific work. But its only for a month, so we are up for it.

I am afraid the situation is not much better for NASA either. Most of the plant study projects have been axed in the last 10 years. There is still nice research being done, but sadly not on the scale to send greenhouses to Mars. Money is the only reason I know of against a NASA mission to send greenhouses to Mars.

"To me, someone assuming that plants are sent into Space by NASA Scientists only to see if they grow is an insult."

That was poor phrasing on my part. Sorry about that. I wish I could send you the proposal we prepared for this project that passed the technical review. We only had room for a short list of citations, but I managed to sneak in a number of nice papers about growing plants in microgravity, hypobaric conditions, and different closed systems.

[Yuriy Fazylov]

Eh