Let's play with high voltage - Laminar flow hood squirrel cage fan

[Dakota Hamill]

So I got a pretty sweet 6 ft long high quality laminar flow filter in a metal enclosure that actually used to be used in the ceilling of a clean room.  It is not a legit laminar flow hood, but i'm sure if I throw on a pre-filter and some side walls, it'll do the job.

Anyway, the guy who was dumpster diving and who gave it to me said the fan was basically not connected anymore, and so I have it sitting here in parts, but it seems like everything is here.  I just don't know how to piece it together.

I understand this will probably be a difficult thing to do across the internet but, if someone with more electrical expertise than me could take a look at this I'd appreciate it.  

http://imgur.com/a/CPuT9

Looking at the HI, MED, LOW black green red wire diagram on the actual motor case, I think those correspond to the 3 gold pins that sit directly opposite of the HI, MED, LOW white switch on the switch box?  

I think the green wire from the motor is the ground, since its just screwed into the metal case, and on the back side of the actual laminar flow hood there is a lone green wire sticking out, which I assume will connect to the green wire on the motor.

I'm confused as to where to put the LIVE White wire from the motor, and how exactly to hook up the red and black wire from the variable speed controller missing the dial knob.  And also, where these red white and green clip connections go which come from the actual wall socket plug.  I thought this thing was a 220V but the plug looks like a 120V.

Yeah...I know this'll probably be impossible or very hard and messy to figure out from my crappy pictures but I had a tough time trying to find schematics and manuals.

I'm wondering if I could REMOVE the variable speed control and just use the white switch that says MED, HI, LOW because I feel like that variable speed controller was put in after-market so to speak.

[Matt Harbowy]

Pursuant to my other posts, you should STOP and get the advice of a qualified and trained electrician before you proceed. You are demonstrating a stunning lack of safety awareness.

277 volts is a single phase of commercial electrical supply, at 480 v three phase. See the following sites for "advice" on this matter. Fucking around with mismatched power is a good way to burn your house down, and good luck trying to collect on insurance when they figure it out. That might just be considered arson.

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/electrical-ac-dc/240315-why-277-volt-single-phase-commercial-fluorescent-lighting.html#b

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=119722

Matt Harbowy -hberg...@gmail.com

650 243 8467 - @hbergeronx on Twitter

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[Dakota Hamill]

Thanks for the heads up, I was actually standing in a tub of water holding two of the wires together with my fingers in place of electrical tape and I was just about to plug everything in.  Thanks for saving me.

That's exactly why I posted on here, to see if anyone is familiar with these types of circuits or HV.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/CE76FDE2-3F45-4F27-83C6-58A8FE51057A%40gmail.com.

[Matt Harbowy]

Even if they are, why risk liability for helping you?  Someone may be familiar, but the correct protocol is to contract the services of a professional electrician. I'm not trying to save you: I couldn't care less if you fried yourself. I'm trying to reclaim this lists from trolls who have nothing better to do than post misinformed bullshit and off topic nonsense. What do you hope to accomplish with any of this, DIYBio wise? Do you understand the physics and mechanics of laminar flow? Do you know what a Reynolds number is? How can anyone assess your knowledge level from a jumbled picture of parts?

I'm pointing you right at sources of info that can be googled in seconds, to show you that the answers to your questions are not best sourced on a worldwide mailing list for BIOLOGY. If you want advice via email from an electrician so you can "make progress" on DIYing the hookup, there are dozens of sites that let you make contact with real electricians, waiting to meet YOU. I'm even giving you a hint on a factoid you may have missed in your images, one might even say providing an answer to one of your questions, but I'm not going to be liable if you're stupid enough to use it. You're not listening to what I am showing you, you are being smarmy back at me.

Matt Harbowy -hberg...@gmail.com

650 243 8467 - @hbergeronx on Twitter

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[Dakota Hamill]

You are a very angry person.

[Nathan McCorkle]

On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Matt Harbowy <hberg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 277 volts is a single phase of commercial electrical supply, at 480 v three
> phase.

From the image he posted, it looks like it is a single-phase motor "HZ
60 PH 1"... I could be wrong, though a bunch of resellers online all
say the same thing (though they differ somewhat on the voltage).

If it's indeed single-phase, which the schematic diagram on the motor
image seems to reinforce, then you should indeed be able wire up
BLK/BLU/RED wires directly to 110V. Is there actually a switch on the
motor? It's hard to tell if those wires expect three different voltage
levels, or if a switch causes more or less coils to be selected (so
same voltage, but switching would engage more coils, which would draw
more current).

[John Griessen]

On 07/15/2014 01:08 PM, Matt Harbowy wrote:
> 277 volts is a single phase of commercial electrical supply, at 480 v three phase.

It is a problem, but I'm not quite so authority driven as Matt H.

There may be a way. Another way is to consider a fan as a generic item for convenience
and value the big HEPA filter more, and find a convenient fan to control however you want...


On 07/15/2014 01:34 PM, Dakota Hamill wrote:> Thanks for the heads up, I was actually standing in a tub of water holding two of

the wires together with my fingers in place of
> electrical tape and I was just about to plug everything in. Thanks for saving me.

Haaahhh! Funny!

On 07/15/2014 02:01 PM, Matt Harbowy wrote:> the correct protocol is to contract the services of a professional electrician


Yeah, he is fairly authority driven... and where it comes to infectious organisms -- probably worth the worry.

But, back to practical stuff... would you be interested in paying for the shipping of some other
extra almost-dumpster-dived stuff that could work better? I've got too many squirrel cage fans like
over the stove microwave ovens use, and they're rated for the usual 120V and UL/ETL listed, tested.

Otherwise, you could buy a transformer off ebay for converting 277V down to 120V...and pay expensive shipping for that...

John
EE who's done a NEC code study class once, and just wired an apartment last year...

PS One image looks like a 3 way switch, not a variable speed control. What is in the hole in that vari-speed motor control box?
Is it for a shaft, or an occasional screw driver tweak? That box needs looking for model numbers and instruction sheets...
Who knows, maybe the vari-speed box can function at 120V too.

[Dakota Hamill]

Thanks John for the reply.  I will grab some better photos tomorrow, and I'll show you what the HEPA filter looks like.  It is pretty sweet, so I don't want it to go to waste, and I know this motor+fan fit into it, but for some reason someone ripped apart the wires for the control box.

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[Jonathan Cline]

On Tuesday, July 15, 2014 10:22:01 AM UTC-7, Dakota wrote:

So I got a pretty sweet 6 ft long high quality laminar flow filter in a metal enclosure that actually used to be used in the ceilling of a clean room.

Nice pics and looks to be in good condition. I think you have all the info you need in order to proceed, if you're comfortable doing technician level work.  An electrician in this case would simply call the manufacturer (Fasco) and get their customer service / tech support line, give the operator the model number, then remain on hold anywhere from 45 minutes to 3 hours, then finally get connected to someone who can give the simple instructions regarding how to connect it up after giving them all the colors of wires that you see.  That's probably the best route for you to take as well.  (To Matt's point, technician level work does not require a Ph D., it just requires being able to find the right tech support and asking the right questions.)    They don't want or need to know that the motor is in a laminar flow hood or what you are doing with it, only that it is a motor you want to hook up with their speed controller.  Yes, you will need a 480V connection, but only use 1 side of it (perhaps the original lab was wired with special outlets at that position, same type as 120V yet colored differently, like orange, etc).

Quickly searching "Fasco v.277" reveals the following among other useful info you might want to skim before calling, so you know in general what they might ask you first (model #s etc).

 

https://www.emotorstore.com/productdetail.asp_Q_catID_E_4_A_subCatID_E_236_A_productID_E_376_A_skuID_E_25764

Or, you could sell the motor and switch on ebay, and use the proceeds to buy a physically larger but perhaps more inexpensive 120V motor or fan assembly, since I'd guess you probably don't have 480V handy.   (To Matt's point, that's also what an electrician might do, it's not rocket science, so you could do it too.)

## Jonathan Cline

## jcl...@ieee.org

## Mobile: +1-805-617-0223

########################

[Nathan McCorkle]

A bunch of links says 120V... so I imagine throwing a dimmer switch on
'BLK-HI' might work. If 120VAC doesn't turn the motor on, I doubt it
will damage it. And you'll indeed know if it isn't fast enough, or
doesn't turn on, which should tell you the voltage requirements pretty
quick.

It looks like the speed controller doc reflects this line of thinking
(but it doesn't confirm the voltage, as I can't see the subtype of
your controller, but I know it isn't the third 706 model, as that has
2 more wires for pulse inputs, which yours doesn't look like it has):
http://www.hoffmancontrols.com/literature/700/706/706-1234S_PD_A.pdf

[Jonathan Cline]

Keep in mind that 120V has different phase than the 3 legs of 480V.
Motors are designed to run under certain phase angles (this one, likely
designed for 120 deg). The amplitude is only part of the story.

## Jonathan Cline
## jcl...@ieee.org
## Mobile: +1-805-617-0223
########################

[Nathan McCorkle]

Even though it seems clear that it's a single-phase motor?

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[Jonathan Cline]

480V uses different terminology, so single phase means across the two
phases and both of those with respect to ground, I believe. Those two
hot's will be 120 deg out of phase with each other when each is viewed
w/r/t ground and the motor winding will use that phase difference to
drive itself properly against it's magnets. It doesn't mean one AC
signal with a return-neutral as in a 120VAC circuit.

## Jonathan Cline
## jcl...@ieee.org
## Mobile: +1-805-617-0223
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[Matt Harbowy]

You totally aren't getting my point. Yes, there is no particular esoteric knowledge, and many electricians only have trade school degrees. This isn't about rocket science, it's about liability. This is also not about authority, but accountability. It's about not inadvertently creating hazardous situations that others have to clean up down the road. It's about doing the right thing. It's about properly documenting your decisions and reasoning, so when someone has to unravel it, they don't have spaghetti.

Oh, and if you intend to do this in your own home, that you only share with people who share your proclivities and no minors, go nuts. But good luck getting a certificate of occupancy if you ever try to sell it, or good luck untangling your landlord's lawsuits if you fail to put it back how you found it. You do know that in many places, you need a permit to make those kind of modifications? And trigger an inspection? Probably not, because callously flouting the laws and regulations is how grinders are doin it. And consequences are just a drag.

And once you get the squirrel cage rattling, how are you going to make sure you have clean laminar flow? At some level, most DIYBio enthusiasts would be better off starting with just a static bench in a plastic box. How do you plan to qualify the hood? Do you even need a hood, or are you lusting after some mythical toy that will make your lab magically a biosafety level 2 lab? Even the best hood, if used improperly or "jury rigged", might not actually protect your samples or you, depending on how you eventually wire and configure it.

It's not about my opinion of your abilities! Yes, I'm skeptical, but it's not the point. It's about recognizing when to move Mahomet, and when to move the Mountain.

There are so many professional facilities that are not up to snuff, I don't know why I even bother sometimes. You could do it better, put professionals to shame- but we get distracted by macguyvering it and chasing things, not protocols and learning. Why not figure out how to do it better and safer and cleaner? Wouldn't that be a much better accomplishment?

Major electrical work, irrespective of the level of experience of people here, is not in scope and not an appropriate topic.

Matt Harbowy -hberg...@gmail.com
650 243 8467 - @hbergeronx on Twitter

[Nathan McCorkle]

:/

You never spoke up when we talked about kilovolt power in countless other threads.

He can evaluate the hood using a Petri and sterile media, and the other techniques he'll soon tell us about.

A good clean HEPA is better than no HEPA.

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[Jonathan Cline]

Matt I got your point and your points are true within a certain
context. However this list is called D.I.Y.bio for a reason. It is not
called Deep Pocket Call A Contractor bio. It is not called I Don't Want
To Learn To Do it Myself So I'll Call Someone Else bio. A homeowner can
wire their own home in a D.I.Y. context (even 480V if they choose) and a
lab owner can wire their own lab in a D.I.Y. context. Educate if you
like, you don't have to beat everyone over the head with your points
repetitively. Your discussion is appreciated. Spend time writing
something productive.

If you want to see my own example of where I said "Please don't do that,
remove this dangerous project from your web page" then search this
list's archives for the guy who wanted to make an electrophoresis power
supply by plugging a rectifier directly into a household wall outlet and
basically sticking the output wires directly into the buffer (don't do
that, it is very dangerous). I forget the subject line at the moment.

[John Griessen]

On 07/16/2014 02:35 AM, Jonathan Cline wrote:
> Those two hot's will be 120 deg out of phase with each other when each is viewed w/r/t ground and the motor winding will use that
> phase difference to drive itself properly against it's magnets. It doesn't mean one AC signal with a return-neutral as in a
> 120VAC circuit.

Since the motor is marked PH 1, it is a single phase motor. The connection diagram shows LINE and LINE
connected to various windings to get different speeds. The neutral wire is not mentioned and the safety
ground is not mentioned by the connection diagram, so it's not a complex setup where it uses the two 120
degrees out of phase voltages with respect to neutral, it just uses the volts across LINE and LINE,
which is just a sine wave and the motor does not use phases with respect to anything else.

Lighting circuits sometimes use 277 volts, which comes from metal halide lamps utilizing that voltage
well with less expensive transformers in each light fixture. So finding a 277V to 120V transformer is one way
to go. The HP is only 1/4. One way to get such a transformer action is a variac adjusted to the right voltage.
Variacs, (autotransformers), do not isolate, so the variac would need to be in a box with proper grounding
and keep its low side isolated, insulated from the box which will have safety ground bonded to it.

This one has more wattage than needed -- could find a smaller 1/4HP, (187 Watts), matched one.
possibly.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/STACO-type-500B-kVA-1-05-Adjust-A-Volt-variac-Variable-Autotransformer-7-5A-/151356929541?hash=item233d937605

Here's one for lighting that is a normal transformer with metal box around connections 277:120
turns ratio and enough watts, (300VA), to do the 1/4 HP motor:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Philips-277-120-transformer-300VA-71A9741-J-volt-amp-watt-step-up-down-j-box-/271547875604?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f3983c114

[John Griessen]

On 07/16/2014 11:34 AM, John Griessen wrote:
> Here's one for lighting that is a normal transformer with metal box around connections 277:120
> turns ratio and enough watts, (300VA), to do the 1/4 HP motor:

Should be:

Here's one for lighting that is an autotransformer

[Dakota Hamill]

Thanks for all the detailed responses, I learned a bit about motors. I'll seek out an electrician on campus today or tomorrow and maybe they can give a yay or nay as to whether this thing is salvageable or if I should just buy a new one (motor).  The HEPA filter and it's box still seems good, and is more valuable than the motor anyway.  We do have 220V lines in our lab because we run the mass specs on them, though I didn't know this thing was 480V/277V or however you'd list it.  I'm sure a facilities person would be able to say if that's even available, as they do put in direct lines upon request for new equipment.

No this wouldn't be for a bio-safety cabinet for use in BSL2 work, that'd be rather foolish to take any risks on jury rigging, both for user safety and sample sterility.  It's for a horizontal laminar flow cabinet, so it'd be blowing air into the users face.  I need it for the work I do with symbiotic fungi that live within plant tissue.  The most important step after surface sterilizing the plant tissue is plating out pieces of the leaf or woody tissue under sterile conditions to avoid contamination and misidentification of a potential non-endophyte.  Indeed, prior to this, a plastic box sprayed down with ethanol and static air was used as a make-shift glove box.  

I don't have money to buy a brand new hood, nor does the place I am working with, which is why I wanted to see if we could make use of this nice HEPA filter in its metal enclosure that we got.  

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[Jonathan Cline]

On 7/16/14 9:34 AM, John Griessen wrote:
> The neutral wire is not mentioned and the safety
> ground is not mentioned by the connection diagram, so it's not a
> complex setup where it uses the two 120
> degrees out of phase voltages with respect to neutral, it just uses
> the volts across LINE and LINE,
> which is just a sine wave and the motor does not use phases with
> respect to anything else.
>

Definitely could be the case. A simple call to the manufacturer would
confirm. I would trust calling the manufacturer directly more than I
would trust a random electrician found on site.

[Dakota Hamill]

I'll give that a shot.  I went onto their website and tried looking up FASCO U26B1 which was listed on the motor cage but, it said no manuals were found.

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[John Griessen]

On 07/16/2014 02:41 PM, Dakota Hamill wrote:
> tried looking up FASCO U26B1 which was listed on the motor cage but, it said no manuals were found.

Is there anything else on the label that could lead to a datasheet? Motors last and last, so their datasheets
are kept around for long times too. You've just got to positively ID the motor. Try looking for the
other number on the label, 7126-4113. Try calling the company and ask for tech help ID'ing the motor.
Motor engineers don't get tons of calls -- they like to talk about their motors.
Try E3907 also.

hmmm.... entering those in the search box of fasco.com yielded nada.

You're left with phone calling.

[androgenoide]

Pardon me for jumping in... I just happened on this group/post while looking for something else...
From what I can see, the connection diagram on the motor is almost self-explanatory.   I see the start capacitor is already connected so all you would (in theory) have to do is connect the line as indicated... neutral where it says line and hot to the speed control switch to the three windings.   The problem,as I see it, is the voltage mismatch between what the motor expects and what you have available.   Maybe it would run off the 240v in the lab... but maybe it wouldn't be too happy at the lower voltage...  If you really have no other motor available (1/4 HP motors are not that hard to find) then maybe it would be worth a try.  It would be nice to have some protection on the line in case something goes wrong... an inline fuse or breaker would be nice.  (It should only pull an amp or so once it's running off 240 but it will undoubtedly want several amps to start... try a five amp fuse while you're experimenting.)   Hook it up as indicated, run it a while and see if it gets hot or makes weird noises.
And, no, I'm not really an electrician... just a two way radio tech with a penchant for dumpsters and flea markets.

[Jonathan Cline]

On 7/16/14 1:31 PM, John Griessen wrote:
>
> Motor engineers don't get tons of calls -- they like to talk about
> their motors.
>

Likely very true too. There should be a safety disclaimer about calling
lonely desk engineers.
HAH !

[CindyB]

You got this HEPA filter out of a dumpster? If it wasn't wrapped and sealed and maintained in a structurally rigid fashion it is non-functional as a filter. See this for how a HEPA filter has to be maintained to effectively filter: https://www.wbdg.org/ccb/VA/VADEAL/alert120.pdf

Would this give you what you need? http://www.iheartrobotics.com/2010/02/this-new-lab-diy-cleanroom.html

I could see using better filters (you'll still need to deal with pressure drop and assessment measurements for when to replace filters)

Good luck and thanks for sharing ideas.

Cindy

[Dakota Hamill]

A laboratory outside Boston was being shut down.  A company was hired to clean everything out that wasn't auctioned off or liquidated.  Part of the instillation was a clean room, this giant HEPA filter was in the ceiling, blowing in outside air into the clean room.  They were taken out and given to someone who I know that picks up lab equipment here and there.  He had a few of them so gave me one.  I'm sure the filter is old, and perhaps it's saturated or bad in some way, but if I can throw a motor in, build up a box around it, and it keeps some petri dishes from getting contamination, then I'll use it.  It's a very nice metal container and high quality filter, and I don't have enough money to even fund a DIY version right now so that's why I wanted to see if i could salvage this.

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[Sebastian Cocioba]

Was actually looking online a while ago for such a unit for my own DIY hood. Currently I've built two crude laminar flow boxes (sterile air fan box filter thing...) using a simple rectangular box made of plywood, a 3ft x 1ft x 6in hepa filter (used eBay) and a duct blower fan tied to a light dimmer to get close to 90 cubic feet per minute.

I didn't really bother to test particles or what not since ill be using it exclusively for plant tissue culture, not silicon wafer handling in a clean room. My test was simple: several rounds of Petri dishes filled with various nutrient agar media which would grow a very broad range of bugs, fungi, etc and left them open in the draft overnight then incubated at 37C and room temp.

No growth across any of the five assay (30 dishes per assay) so I deemed it clean enough for my needs.

The laminar flow cabinet (PCR Workstation from AirClean) I use at my day job has a basic setup where the air is blown using what appears to be one of those overhead ceiling hepa fan units similar to what you found, a UV light, and a 2x2x4ft polycarbonate box that has a flap in the front for arms and object manipulation. Unit costs $2500 new but im sure you could make on for cheap. Just throwing in my experience. Hope you manage to build a hood for your enjoyment soon!

Sebastian S. Cocioba
CEO & Founder
New York Botanics, LLC
Plant Biotech R&D

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From: Dakota Hamill
Sent: ‎7/‎18/‎2014 8:16 PM
To: diy...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [DIYbio] Re: Let's play with high voltage - Laminar flow hood squirrel cage fan

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