FreeDV reporter calling frequencies

[Rick, WA6III]

Mooneer,

Can you please add new "calling " frequencies to the FreeDV Reporter?

I am suggesting 3833 and 3998  (and/or any other suggestions from anyone else in the ranges of 3800-4000 and 7175-7300)

For 40m, 7180 and 7298

The current 80 & 40 frequencies essentially exclude US general Class operators since the current 80m frequencies are in the Extra Class segment and the 40m frequency puts even 700D slightly below 7175 (for Extra and Advanced Class)

Thanks!

Rick

[Mooneer Salem]

Hi Rick,

It looks like the IARU has designated several frequencies on other bands as "DV centers of activity". (For example, 18.150 or 18.160 MHz on 17 meters depending on region.) It may be worth considering a wider reshuffle of calling frequencies to match up with these where possible (keeping in mind that there may need to be a secondary frequency for e.g. Americans as at least one or two of the IARU frequencies aren't legal for FreeDV here regardless of license class).

BTW if anyone is curious:

https://www.iaru-r1.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/hf_r1_bandplan.pdf (Region 1)

https://www.iaru-r2.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/IARU-Region-2-Band-plan.pdf (Region 2)

https://www.iaru-r2.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/IARU-Region-3-Band-plan.pdf (Region 3)

Thanks,

-Mooneer K6AQ

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[Rick, WA6III]

Thanks for the IARU suggested band plans!

I was referring to region 2 of course for the reasons you mention (IARU suggested DV frequencies on 80/40 are not usable by US amateurs at all)

I think it would be advantageous to choose "calling" frequencies (in the US/Region-2)  that would allow for maximum participation.

IARU indicates "ALL MODES" are "allowed" in the ranges I mentioned. AND, In any case, all of the IARU recommendations are completely voluntary.  (they're not a regulatory body)

They even mention that "DSB AM phone is allowed with maximum 6 kHz BW"   and FCC regs do not specify a maximum bandwidth (they do specify a Modulation Index of 1 or less is specified by FCC) 

Just about everyone running AM with a vintage plate modulated AM transmitter (or those not using a modern SSB/AM rig)   around 6-9khz.

[Tony Langdon]

I think it's a case of compromise. Your suggestions for 80 will
certainly mean no DX to VK, or having to work wild splits. Some parts
of the world don't have access to all of 40m either (we do here, but
that may affect other countries).

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[Mooneer Salem]

Hi all,

If it helps at all, I put the IARU band allocations for the wider 2700 Hz modes (along with phone allocations for the US General class) into a spreadsheet and did some number crunching. Here are the frequency ranges that we can probably be sure are usable in most places:

and which of our current calling frequencies are actually usable everywhere:

Some takeaways:

1. The only one of our calling frequencies that's also an official IARU DV frequency is 28.330 MHz.

2. All of our current calling frequencies on 20 meters and over are usable in most places and can probably be left alone. (This takes into account the entire ~3 KHz passband, not just the dial frequency.)

3. The 75/80 meter frequencies are probably okay everywhere except for General class licensees in the US. 

Anyway, my question to the Americans in the group is, how much activity are you guys doing on 40 and 75/80 meters right now? And where do you guys tune your radios to most often?

Thanks,

-Mooneer K6AQ

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[Mel Whitten]

Thanks for the info.

 

7177 on 40.  Sometimes listening here while reporting/working 14.236.  I’ve not been on 75m for a while.  

 

Mel, K0PFX

 

 

From: digita...@googlegroups.com <digita...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Mooneer Salem
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 12:27 PM
To: digita...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [digitalvoice] FreeDV reporter calling frequencies

 

Hi all,

 

If it helps at all, I put the IARU band allocations for the wider 2700 Hz modes (along with phone allocations for the US General class) into a spreadsheet and did some number crunching. Here are the frequency ranges that we can probably be sure are usable in most places:

 

 

and which of our current calling frequencies are actually usable everywhere:

 

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[Rick, WA6III]

I operate on 40m fairly frequently.  A few of the amateurs I talk to have  US general class licenses so we always operate well above 7177..... a dial (LSB Suppressed Carrier) frequency of 7177 would be illegal for him since  700D would put his signal to close for comfort to 7175,  (and 700E "slops" well  below 7175)

Also, on the west coast, the Mabuhay Net is almost ALWAYS on  7178 during the evening and sometimes in the late afternoon.  I would really like to get some of  them to consider trying FreeDV but it won't happen if they get jammed by it in the evenings! 

If we operate on 75, we go well above 3802 for the same reason...... I have been helping a few general class operators to get going with FreeDV.  I really don't want to discourage them by telling them a "lot" of FreeDV users operate on 75m but it's on frequencies they can't use

I am certainly not suggesting eliminating any of the current "calling" frequencies for 75m but they're simply not legal in the US for anyone with less than an Extra Class license.

So maybe a couple of frequencies could be added  in the ranges 3802-4000kHz and 7175-7300kHz  as suggested US   DV "calling" frequencies or maybe suggest the entire ranges

there are so many nets and "round tables " on 75 and 40 that having specific frequencies will almost always have someone landing on someone elses "personal" frequency!

-------------------------

10 Meters.....

I know I have brought this up before but........, It appears that Novice and Technician operators might be tempted to try FreeDV on 28330 .....but according to Part 97, it appears that they're limited to SSB (analog) Phone (H3E)  and R3E

Someone please tell me where I am missing something. How is FreeDV in anyway related to a "Single Analog Channel" as indicated below?

I can operate NBFM in the 28.300-28.500 range but I wouldn't because I might have a Novice or Tech try to call me on FM violating the limits of his license

Did someone somehow designate FreeDV as analog?

We now have Volunteer Monitors that will send out Advisory Notices when they observe violations.  Advisory Notices are forwarded to FCC and can become "real" violations if the operation  continues...

10M Novice/Technician "Phone" segment: according to 97.305

97.307

I am not seeing how FreeDV being a completely digital signal can somehow be defined as a "Single Analog Channel"

Please understand I am not trying to "pour cold water" on anything.  I just don't want anyone to get in trouble. We need those Novice and Tech operators to upgrade someday!

73/Rick

[Mooneer Salem]

Hi Rick,

I'm actually not 100% sure about (10) in 97.307 below. Maybe someone with more legal knowledge can clarify for us?

As for 40/80 meters, it's unlikely any existing frequencies would be removed without a good reason since they've been public for quite a while. The main question is what exactly the new ones should be (if any), which I'm not sure the community has a consensus on yet. Hopefully more feedback comes in to help with that :)

Thanks,

-Mooneer K6AQ

 

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[Russ B.]

I use 40 and 20 mostly for other digital modes.  I don't have an antenna for 80.  

Russ WD9DD

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[Mooneer Salem]

Yeah, I'm not sure how busy 80 is around here either since I don't have the ability to operate on that band from home.

As an update, I tried to get a list of well known 40 meter nets and that didn't really help. I suspect a similar list of 75/80 meter nets won't help, either. That said, based on the IARU R2 band plan for 80 and 40 meters, would it be fair to assume we want to avoid anything emergency/contest specific? Note below:

-Mooneer K6AQ

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[Rick, WA6III]

For West Coast use, it might be useful to maybe have a DV "Window" like 7200-7230,  3985-4000,  1985-2000 etc

Since the FreeDV reporter works so well there only needs to be one station initially landing on a frequency in the window to establish a "channel".

Then anyone else will see them in their reporter window.

It really doesn't have to be a specific "calling frequency" per se' ......  Just a starting point.

[Brian Morrison]

On Sun, 10 Sep 2023 23:56:53 -0700 (PDT)
"Rick, WA6III" <myr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It really doesn't have to be a specific "calling frequency" per se'
> ...... Just a starting point.

Any attempt to claim a given frequency as a permanent spot is likely to
face stiff opposition. I completely agree that it can only be a
starting point.

--

Brian G8SEZ

[Rick, WA6III]

It's really only a suggested window too.  Another example is the so-called  "AM Window"  where 3885 and/or 7290 etc are "designated" AM "channels".

I also have vintage AM gear but operate AM from 3700-4000 and 7125-7300.    I simply select a clear frequency and insure I will not interfere with anyone on an adjacent frequency.

It's a very simple task.

It can be problematic for some when choosing a frequency that possibly has a "net" starting up soon,  near by or on the same frequency.  but they DO NOT own the frequency!

Regardless of whether I use full carrier double-sideband AM, or SSB (USB/LSB)  on any band, I always check if the frequency is in use.   I have never asked if the frequency will BE in use 30 min from now etc.

I have had some "Net members" ask quite nicely if I would be willing to change frequency so they could use it and I will move gladly!

I have also had a few net members tell me that a net was going to start up and I "HAVE TO MOVE" .    I respectfully tell them to pound sand.  Every net operation has a procedure and secondary frequency in case the frequency is in use when they're scheduled to operate.  

One net in particular in the NW US  (The Columbia Basin Net 3960 LSB) , if the frequency is in use,  they switch to 3960 USB. and monitor LSB for when that user ends his or her QSO.

I am in no way suggesting anyone get confrontational with anyone else over operation on the amateur bands so it would seem suggesting frequency ranges is better than  

specific frequencies in all cases.

[Mooneer Salem]

I know I've been saying in every presentation I give that FreeDV can be used anywhere that voice can (minus 60 meters in the US). Maybe the real solution is to somehow make that more explicit somewhere. For instance, perhaps on freedv.org we can officially recommend US hams to operate somewhere above 7175 and 3800 (and other General license allocations) when possible and leave it at that. 

The downside of course is that some won't be able to report to FreeDV Reporter (either because of no internet access--i.e. SOTA/POTA--or because some future FreeDV-enabled radio simply won't have a network connection). In those cases, I can see how having a specific calling frequency on each band to start with would be a good idea.

-Mooneer K6AQ

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[Brian Morrison]

On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 11:32:28 -0700
Mooneer Salem <moo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I know I've been saying in every presentation I give that FreeDV can
> be used anywhere that voice can (minus 60 meters in the US). Maybe
> the real solution is to somehow make that more explicit somewhere.
> For instance, perhaps on freedv.org we can officially recommend US
> hams to operate somewhere above 7175 and 3800 (and other General
> license allocations) when possible and leave it at that.
>
> The downside of course is that some won't be able to report to FreeDV
> Reporter (either because of no internet access--i.e. SOTA/POTA--or
> because some future FreeDV-enabled radio simply won't have a network
> connection). In those cases, I can see how having a specific calling
> frequency on each band to start with would be a good idea.

A big part of the problem is that a lot of people who are demodulating
a FreeDV transmission on an SSB radio don't actually know what it is
and think it is some sort of military or government intruder into
amateur allocations.

If you don't have a spectrum scope then it's not too easy to recognise
the sound of this sort of QPSK as an amateur mode.

Maybe we should ensure that FreeDV is included in the various Signal ID
wikis in the hope that people will learn to recognise it.

--

Brian

[Mooneer Salem]

Speaking of signal identification, it looks like 700C is on there as well as FreeDV + Video but I'm not sure about any of the other modes:

https://www.sigidwiki.com/wiki/FreeDV_COHPSK

https://www.sigidwiki.com/wiki/FreeDV_plus_Video

There's also RSID (https://tapr.org/wp-content/uploads/DCC2010-RS-ID-Call-ID-F6CTE.pdf), but I'm not sure anyone would necessarily expect it on the voice portions of the bands (nor would it be intelligible to anyone unless they were already running FreeDV).

-Mooneer K6AQ

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[Rick, WA6III]

I will agree with Brian,

Since there's so few people using FreeDV on 160/75/40 on the west coast, I can guarantee that if someone plants a signal anywhere on those bands, most of the people I know (who I haven't tried to sell FreeDV to) will assume it's some exotic digital mode that is certainly "illegal" on the phone band.  (it's pretty hard to educate some people)

Since it is a "real" digital mode, maybe it could be easier to get FCC to authorize an experimental STA to operate  it down below the phone band (where Gen/ADV/Extras can actually all operate)    Maybe it could be authorized with a MAX bandwidth (700D/E etc) I.E. keep it as narrow as some of the other wide digital modes.

Experimental STA's are usually only issued for 6months but maybe that could even be extended and possibly after a suitable test period, the authorization could be made permanent via an NPRM.  This would of course require some people at ARRL to agree that FreeDV needs a band segment somewhat separate from the "regular" phone bands

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/forms/STANotificationPage.cfm

I understand I am thinking out of the box here, but FreeDV by virtue of it's extremely narrow band nature sort of requires *some* thinking out of the box.  (ARRL and the FCC that listens to them are firmly rooted in the past by designating it as a "voice" mode that should only be in the current phone bands.  

It is clearly NOT an analog mode, anymore than AFSK digital modes are analog.   That might require a slightly different approach to where it should be used

I'll stop short of saying this is similar to the transition from AM to SSB but it's beginning to look like it's on the horizon..... and as the voice quality improves (and it will) ,  I think it's going to be a clear alternative to SSB

(And this is from someone that uses an SX101 + Johnson Viking Valiant on AM!! along with the other Drake, and Hallicrafters gear I have)

Cheers,

Rick

[jdow]

There is a very positive use for voice SSB ID appending words about using FreeDV. It shows you are not an unlicensed intruder and advertises FreeDV.

{O.O}   Joanne/W6MKU

[Mooneer Salem]

Winlink forces a CW ID at the end of every session (which I guess is required by law in some places?) Doing the same wouldn't necessarily tell people FreeDV is in use, but it would let people know they're licensed anyway.

Rick: depending on whether we finally get around to regulating by bandwidth (and what that looks like), we might not need to go through the trouble of a STA. 

-Mooneer K6AQ

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[Mooneer Salem]

Hi all,

I haven't heard anything about this for a while, so I figure I'd suggest 3850 KHz (80/75m) and 7197 KHz (40m) as "alternate" frequencies intended for those in IARU Region 2 (though 7197 should still be legal for regions 1 and 3 and 3850 in region 3). 3850 particularly because it's fairly close to SSTV on that band (per https://www.amateur-radio-wiki.net/sstv-frequencies/, anyway), which was one of the reasons I've heard for going with 14236 KHz for 20 meters in the first place. 7197 to hopefully avoid interference from shortwave stations >= 7200 late at night.

Anyway, let me know if there's anything that would preclude the use of either of those (for example, a long-standing net on either frequency) or if you have alternate suggestions. If that sounds good, we can go from there.

Thanks,

-Mooneer K6AQ

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[Tony Langdon]

FYI...

7197 is legal here (40m is 7000 - 7300 kHz), and should be clear of
shortwave stations at night (SW supposedly starts from 7200 up).
However, there's not really many good solutions for 80m, 3850 is out of
band. The Australian 80m band is quite small - 3500-3700, with a DX
window of 3776 - 3800 kHz. Guess we can't have everything.

> > For instance, perhaps on freedv.org <http://freedv.org> we

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[Mooneer Salem]

Hi Tony,

Yeah, I came to the conclusion that we won't be able to choose new frequencies that work everywhere, which is why these are alternates for Region 2 specifically. 7177 and the existing ones for 80 meters of course work worldwide *except* for US General licenses, so those would likely stay the ones that are primarily used for those interested in working on those two bands.

Thanks,

-Mooneer K6AQ

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[Rick, WA6III]

Mooneer,

At least for West Coast operation, I believe 7197 and 3850 will be  excellent  starting points....And, let me also suggest for 1997 kHz for 160.......   So far in the evening, Hugh, KF7LN and I have used it several times with no real problems with interference.

And, even if any frequency is in use, operators referring to the FreeDV reporter will see the exact frequency of whomever is on....with 160/75 & 40, it's not as likely to only hear one side of any QSO,  so interfering with SSB QSO's would seem less likely.

The only "regular"  nets I hear routinely at the bottom of the 40m (GEN) phone band  from the PNW in the afternoons/evenings  is the Mabuhay Net 7178 and the  long-standing OMISS group on 7185, (also 3825  & other bands See--->  https://www.omiss.net/Facelift/index.php for their schedules and frequencies)

Cheers,

Rick

WA6III

[Mooneer Salem]

Hi Rick,

Thanks for the suggestion about 160 meters as well. I made a note in the related GitHub issue (https://github.com/drowe67/freedv-gui/issues/580) so that once I'm sure there aren't any other comments, it can be included when the needed code/website changes are made.

Thanks,

-Mooneer K6AQ

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[Mooneer Salem]

Hi all,

I went ahead and merged https://github.com/drowe67/freedv-gui/pull/601, which adds the following frequencies to the default frequency list in the application (and will be in version 1.9.5 when it comes out):

1997 KHz (160 meters)

3850 KHz (80 meters)

7197 KHz (40 meters)

These (with the exception of 1997 KHz) are intended as alternates for those in IARU Region 2 who are unable to use the existing 80 and 40 meter frequencies (i.e. US General class licensees). The linked change only affects the default frequency list for new installs or if you wipe your existing configuration; otherwise, you'll need to add these frequencies manually. Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks,

-Mooneer K6AQ