That "after the night before" feeling...

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Andy Smith

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May 19, 2022, 8:26:26 AM5/19/22
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Yawn...
 
No traffic on this group for a very long time... The dust is raining down as I wonder whether this message will “bounce”.
 
Anyone interested in the known hazards in Ukraine would do well to take a look at the GiHAD’s offering -
[Did he just write something praising the GiHAD? Now, now – credit when credit is due.]
 
If anyone out there feels like donating a few bucks for the refugees from Ukraine entering Poland – here’s a link to someone many of you know. He is just trying to give them what they need without creaming anything off (a genuinely honest volunteer).
 
https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/william-e-lawrence?utm_medium=email&utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_campaign=20220514_
 
He had a life in mine clearance from Bosnia to Tajikistan (where he brought me into the UN system) and I have known him for 25+ years. That rare thing – an honest man – doing what he can in his age-enforced “retirement”.
 
Then there is a question. Can anyone tell me what HMA activities are happening in Myanmar? Pressure is being applied to support village demining there because the people think that is better than nothing – and HMA was always supposed to be about helping the people on their terms, with their risk tolerances taken into account. I presume that NPA are still running the nominal MAC and I know that HALO are “active” in so far as they are permitted to be (MRE, or whatever it is now called). Can anyone update me on the current situation? Has anyone got any real details (not just photographs) of the Myanmar manufactured mines – especially the PMN and M14 “clones”.
 
Also, I have drafted a Village Demining SOP for comment – if anyone is interested, let me know. 
 
Regards,
Andy
 

Virus-free. www.avg.com

bobkeeley

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May 19, 2022, 9:25:15 AM5/19/22
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Hi Andy

I’ll have a look at your village demining SOP but every time I’ve ever had this discussion (since 1997 with HI) it’s always stumbled over the question of liability.

Even the famed ‘village deminers’ of Ruth Bottomley fame turned out to be simply commercial deminers, albeit at the cowboy/jobbing builder end of the scale. 

Yours

Bob



On 19 May 2022, at 14:26, Andy Smith <a...@nolandmines.com> wrote:


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Andy Smith

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May 23, 2022, 5:21:50 AM5/23/22
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Morning Bob,
 
I understand that the GiHAD has – after many years of schoolboy argument  – defined “reasonable” and so justified its existence. The prior existence of useful lexicons aside, it is still the national authority’s responsibility to define “reasonable effort” and “tolerable risk” in detail. When the only authority in evidence is at village level, that becomes “village demining” to my mind. My experience if that local leaders are far more likely to be happy to do this coherently (and vary it with experience and as time passes) than a National Authority. What is both “reasonable” and “tolerable” always depends on context.
 
Anyway, sometimes you have to risk getting it wrong to do anything at all. My very cautious SOP is sent separately. It was written for Myanmar (where Luke and I worked illegally a few years back) but probably could have wider application. Responsibility for task selection and deciding “tolerable risk” is passed to the community leaders (scaling down the IMAS approach) and the use of metal detectors without training is side-lined (partly because the combatants would probably take any useful/valuable detectors and toy detectors would be a liability in M14 clone areas). Much of the threat is from UXO – mortars and rifle grenades with a few RPG – so maybe the yellow Schonstedt could be usefully added? It is less likely to be stolen immediately.
 
The community in question will pay its people something using small donations from abroad because nobody can afford not to be finding a way to make a buck to feed the family. Does that make it commercial demining? If all demining is commercial as soon as people are paid, then all the INGOs are commercial entities (which they are). If the experienced individuals then go off and sell their services to another community, that would definitely become “commercial demining” and the usual problems with underestimating the work involved makes it likely that corners will be cut.
 
If you can comment on it, I will try to make appropriate changes before putting it online. Thanks.
 
Regards,
Andy
 
 
 
 
 
 
From: bobkeeley
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2022 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: [HD] That "after the night before" feeling...
 
Hi Andy
 
I’ll have a look at your village demining SOP but every time I’ve ever had this discussion (since 1997 with HI) it’s always stumbled over the question of liability.
 
Even the famed ‘village deminers’ of Ruth Bottomley fame turned out to be simply commercial deminers, albeit at the cowboy/jobbing builder end of the scale.
 
Yours
 
Bob
 
 
 
 
On 19 May 2022, at 14:26, Andy Smith <a...@nolandmines.com> wrote:
 
 
 

Yawn...
 
No traffic on this group for a very long time... The dust is raining down as I wonder whether this message will “bounce”.
 
Anyone interested in the known hazards in Ukraine would do well to take a look at the GiHAD’s offering -
 
 
[Did he just write something praising the GiHAD? Now, now – credit when credit is due.]
 
If anyone out there feels like donating a few bucks for the refugees from Ukraine entering Poland – here’s a link to someone many of you know. He is just trying to give them what they need without creaming anything off (a genuinely honest volunteer).
 
 
 
 
He had a life in mine clearance from Bosnia to Tajikistan (where he brought me into the UN system) and I have known him for 25+ years. That rare thing – an honest man – doing what he can in his age-enforced “retirement”.
 
Then there is a question. Can anyone tell me what HMA activities are happening in Myanmar? Pressure is being applied to support village demining there because the people think that is better than nothing – and HMA was always supposed to be about helping the people on their terms, with their risk tolerances taken into account. I presume that NPA are still running the nominal MAC and I know that HALO are “active” in so far as they are permitted to be (MRE, or whatever it is now called). Can anyone update me on the current situation? Has anyone got any real details (not just photographs) of the Myanmar manufactured mines – especially the PMN and M14 “clones”.
 
Also, I have drafted a Village Demining SOP for comment – if anyone is interested, let me know. 
 
Regards,
Andy
 
 
 
Virus-free. www.avg.com
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You have received this message because you are subscribed to the Humanitarian Demining forum - which is a forum for the discussion of all Mine Action topics - ranging from EOD and technical aspects of mines and ERW to field demining, survey, MRE, Advocacy, Campaigning and Victim's Assistance.
 
To post to this group, send an email to demi...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to
 
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You have received this message because you are subscribed to the Humanitarian Demining forum - which is a forum for the discussion of all Mine Action topics - ranging from EOD and technical aspects of mines and ERW to field demining, survey, MRE, Advocacy, Campaigning and Victim's Assistance.
 
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Robert Keeley

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May 23, 2022, 5:32:54 AM5/23/22
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Thanks Andy

‘Commercial’ is anything that happens in a market.

‘Humanitarian’ is anything in conditions of ‘market failure’ where the beneficiary is not the customer. Not unusual where the market value of the land cleared will never exceed the cost of demining. 

These are my personal definitions extracted  from standard economic concepts.

Thus a ‘commercial’ demining company can be paid by a customer (the donor) to do humanitarian work.

Likewise, a jobbing deminer in a village is a ‘commercial’ deminer.

IIRC Ruth gave the impression in her original work that the (small number of) ‘village’ deminers were either clearing their own land or working out of a sense of altruism. IMHO - after further research-  they were jobbing deminers working for money.

Bob


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