New controller design

[Robsbots]

My plan is that Cyclone should be able to mill it's own pcb. I would like everyone’s input on a board design.

I think the board should be single sided, probably though hole components.

Would an Arduino shield be best or a self contained controller with its own processor ?

If it is self contained, which processor would be best ? (I plan on an Arduino shield or an Arduino compatible controller to stay compatible with current firmware)

Should the stepper drivers be plug in modules (pololu style) or on board ?

Would a high power pwm enabled spindle output be useful or would a relay output be better ?, Or both so there is the option of using either ?
What is the maximum current draw likely to be needed by the spindle ?
What other I/O would you like on the board ?
Probe input ?
Lcd connector ?
Card reader ?
Control buttons to move the axis/interact with the lcd and run jobs from the card reader ?
Emergency stop ?
Anything else that would be useful ?

I'm currently using EagleCAD free edition so the board is limited in size but this shouldn't be a problem.  Is there a package that people prefer ?
I can switch to any package as long as it's free :)

Nothing is set in stone. Anything can change. Let me know all your thoughts and I'll put a board together.

Thanks

Rob

[Iceflow]

Agree in the single sided board with through hole components, although, it can be dificult to do it single sided if too many "things" are included... but first first :D

A shield is useful in the mean that you dont need to do all the microcontroller side, its done for you hehehhe an arduino UNO with a 328P its capable of doing many things, and is a cheap option. A shield for the UNO like the RAMPS for the MEGA its a good option. There is a post in the list already with a couple of examples, but i think they need some improvements. If we need more pins, we can go for the MEGA, and modify the RAMPS for our needs, its not a bad option, its desings are free and a good start point i think.

Also doing a board from scratch its not so dificult, a good option its a board with a 1284P (like the Sanguinololu), easy to solder, and has a lots of pins and memory to put LCD, SD and more things needed. Maybe modifying the Sanguinololu to ours needs its a good point.

I dont know much about CNC, but i dont think that we need low RPMs for milling... so a ON-OFF option with a relay (220-v115v) or a MOSFET (12v-24v) for a spindle would be the right choice, it depends on the type of spindle. Having both options its best.

The current draw by the spindle would be a power suply problem not an electronic controller problem.

Probe its a must, for bed leveling.

LCD, encoder and SD would be great, to have an all in one option, and not having to use a computer,

Emergency stop is always handy.

Having more than one relay so one can connect a vacuum cleaner or anything else needed.

The motor drivers, i like to be pololu style, if one burns, you dont have to solder in the board, just take the bad out and put a new one, easiest that way.

All in all i like the idea of doing a board "exclusively" for the Cyclone, with the things we need, no more and no less.

I keep an eye on you dude!! ;)

2013/8/14 Robsbots <r...@robsbots.org.uk>

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[Stuart Mitchell]

HI..

I would like to see a board like the Sanguinololu but using a 1284P SMD chip, room for 3 pololu style drivers. Stepper motor to use screw terminals aswell as power and at least 3 MOSFET to switch SSR, one for the spindle, one for vac and the last one for lights or just a spare.

There should also be min and max endstops.

Stuart

[Iceflow]

Why the SMD version? to left more room? make the board smaller? its harder to solder for the average maker, if something happens its harder to remove... and in a single sided board it goes for the solder side...  i think the through hole version with a socket its a better idea, but is only my opinion...

2013/8/14 Stuart Mitchell <auzz...@gmail.com>

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[Alex]

Hi,
I think through hole is better too.
Maybe we can start with the gen7 for repraps and modify it to suit our needs : http://reprap.org/wiki/Generation_7_Electronics

+
Alex

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[Iceflow]

Gen7 its a good option to start too :D i have it in my reprap working perfect for more than one year!! its totally open and a simple PCB to do.

To do single sided "simple" PCBs maybe we can take a look at visolate, from the creator of the Gen7 electronics, its a fastest way to trace and mill PCBs.

http://reprap.org/wiki/PCB_Milling#Visolate

2013/8/14 Alex <alex.f...@gmail.com>

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[Carlos García]

My thoughts are the same as Iceflow.

The only things I want to add:

- Not a hard constrain, but I would prefer a design made on KiCad, to have an "Open Hardware Squared" electronics too. This means that not only the product is open-source, but also the software used to develop it.

- This monday I visited the Otherlab in SF (https://otherlab.com/) and got the chance to talk with Jonathan Ward, who is an expert on the design of CNC machines from MIT. Basically, he showed me that it is very possible to make our own spindle (http://mtm.cba.mit.edu/toolheads/spindle/makeit.html) powered by a brushless motor (and most importantly, at 12V instead of 48V). So we should consider adding to the electronics the connectors necessary for the brushless motor driver.

Also, looking around the MIT MTM website I have just found this interesting design of a mill: http://web.mit.edu/imoyer/www/portfolio/pcbmill/index.html

It is a nice idea to have a Z preload spring, specially when we switch to the lighter spindle motor.

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[Iceflow]

There are some nice brushless motors in the radio control hobby, good rpms and low cost, and a motor speed controler and you have a 12V cheap spindle, we only need to "desing" a the rest of the spindle and a collet to put the milling tools :D the MIT desing for the spindle looks easy enough.

Agree in the KiCAD option, all that can remains free its best.

What a good trip are you doing mate? ;)

2013/8/14 Carlos García <carlosga...@gmail.com>

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[Robsbots]

Sorry for the long post :)

I have now installed KiCad. It will take me a little while to get used to it :)

I have moved away from the shield idea and gone for a self contained board. This should make the design cheaper to build i hope.
I am currently basing my design on the Sanguinololu board in regards to pin use.

So far this is my design spec.

Though hole design single sided control board using the ATMEGA1284P chip.

The rs232 to usb will need to be SSOP surface mount I think, unless there is a though hole option ?
May be a plug in dip FT232R carrier board if the SSOP package is out of the question. I'm sure they are available.

3 Axis control using Pololu style (and pin compatible) drivers. 7 I/O pins
6 end stops, 2 per axis. 6 I/O pins
1 Probe input. 1 I/O pin.
lcd. 6 I/O pins
2 control buttons (yes/no, enter/back etc) 2 I/O pins
1 mechanical encoder for control (increase/decrease) used in conjunction with the buttons. 2 I/O pins
sd card reader. 4 I/O pins.
spindle control (digital output to relay or Mosfet for speed control) 1 I/O pin
serial/usb connection. 2 I/O pins

A total of 31 out of 32 pins.

This leaves one spare digital output on the controller that could be used as a high current drive for a hoover/lights or anything else.

If I added a second micro to control the lcd and buttons/encoder I could free up some I/O for anything else required.
This would require some firmware changes. This chip could be connected to the 1284P via 2 serial lines Tx/Rx and save a total of 8 pins on the main controller. Is it worth pursuing that ?
I could also look at a different processor with more I/O. Let me know what you think.

If the these pins where made available we could then add all sorts of other outputs/inputs as required, such as both relay and mosfet spindle control. Vacuum on/off control, lights, etc etc.

Let me know what you all think.

Also let me know your preferred supplier for components and I'll try to design to their stock.

Thanks

Rob

2013/8/14 Carlos García <carlosga...@gmail.com>

2013/8/14 Alex <alex.f...@gmail.com>

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[Alex]

Gruuut :) You did a good job !

About RS232, maybe we can use an ATtiny85. It's easily available in through hole and inexpensive.

What do you think ?

+

Alex

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[Stuart Mitchell]

Hi

that sounds great but have you thought using I2C for the LCD, this would free up 4 pins.

Stuart

On Wednesday, August 14, 2013 10:43:46 AM UTC+10, Robsbots wrote:

[Daniel "yOPERO" Garrido]

Alex, I would be a bit concern if using an attiny 85 for serial connexion to a 3D printer. What is max .baud rate you think you can get with that setup?

Personally I would not use something lesser than 25000.

2013/8/14 Carlos García <carlosga...@gmail.com>

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[Daniel "yOPERO" Garrido]

Stuart, totally agree with you. Nowadays i2c backpacks for lcds come at an affordable price.

[Robsbots]

Hi Alex.

With the the ATMega1284P we have 2 pins for serial. We need to take the data from those pins and convert it to the USB protocol for the computer.  The Sanguinololu uses an FT232RL chip which comes in either SSOP or QFN package. The SSOP and the QFN are surface mount so would need to be attached to the board on the solder side. One of the Arduino family use an avr programed to provide this function I believe so this could be an option....

As for weather the attiny85 would be fast enough I don't know. It may be better to find a chip with built in USB.

On Friday, 16 August 2013 19:51:24 UTC+1, Alex Faraino wrote:

2013/8/14 Carlos García <carlosga...@gmail.com>

2013/8/14 Alex <alex.f...@gmail.com>

2013/8/14 Stuart Mitchell <auzz...@gmail.com>

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[Robsbots]

I did not think about I2C. That would be a good plan.

Not sure how this would affect the firmware.

I wonder if the sd card reader could also be run from I2C ........

[Stuart Mitchell]

have a look here

http://blog.think3dprint3d.com/search?updated-min=2012-01-01T00:00:00Z&updated-max=2013-01-01T00:00:00Z&max-results=11

Sanguinololu using l2c for LCD, SDcard reader

Stuart

[Iceflow]

Look at the lastest Gen7... it packs a direct USB chip for the comunication, it looks easy to inplement but its has a SMD package.

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[Samuel Kranz]

For the USB Serial Connection a FT230X could be used. Not as many features as the FT232 but cheaper (and smaller).

[Daniel "yOPERO" Garrido]

I know it is out of scope of Cyclone's requirements but a member of the spanish reprap comunity is working in a controller board:

Especs:
Processor: AT90USB1286
- 4 stepper drivers
- 1 fan 12V 1A direct drive
- 2 12V 2A outputs
- 1 12V 1A output
- 4 end-stop detectors
- 2 20A outputs for (heatbed and hotend)
- direct uSD reader
- expansion output
- native USB interface

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-NZqXPxH9JKs/UhNmg8atqGI/AAAAAAAABDM/T0qb1ARig7I/w744-h510-no/cloneWars3Der.png

It is still a work in progress but looks a neat solution if you are not afraid of SMDs.

[Robsbots]

Hi all.

This is a controller I have been working on. Let me know what you think.

It also needs relays to be added to control external loads such as the spindle.  The  only power outputs currently are via MOSFETS.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/XYiH5az.png[/IMG]

Let me know what else would be needed.

[Samuel Kranz]

Hi,

Dont fortget the 100nF blocking capacitors for each chip, and your Mosfet circuit looks wrong. A 100k Ressistor between uC and fet wont work. Normally it is a small ressistor about 22R between uC and Gate and a 100k ressistor beteween gate and GND.

Samuel

[Robsbots]

I've sprinkled a few more caps about and checked the Mosfet driver. Also added relay drivers x 2.



Thanks Samuel.

[Samuel Kranz]

Hi,

Looks good :D. maybe you could use both channels of the relay parallel so the relay holds the max current twice.

Samuel

[Samuel Kranz]

hi,

I just mentioned that you forgot the I2C Pullups ;)

Am Montag, 26. August 2013 03:30:40 UTC+2 schrieb Robsbots:

[Carlos García]

Wao, this controller is developing quick :)

Thanks Robert for working with KiCad, I really appreciate it!!

From my inexperience, I think something might be missing around the stepper drivers. Each one usually has a large capacitor nearby right?

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[Robsbots]

Good point Carlos. I have now put in the caps for the motor driver.  I got side tracked trying to find screw connectors and forgot the caps and the motor power for some time.

This is the current state of the schematic.

<a href="http://imgur.com/QN4VJNn"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/QN4VJNn.png" title="Hosted by imgur.com"/></a>

I rather like Kicad.  I think I will start using this for all my board designs.  I just need to build up a library of libs and foot prints for the components I use.

If anybody knows where to find a uSD card socket lib and footprint for an easy to find component I would love to hear. I also need screw terminal lib and mod files.
Once I have found these I can start to lay out the board.

If anyone can think of anything else I need on the board, let me know. I have no provision yet for probing. What would be needed for that ? I'm thinking a potential divider with a ground terminal for a lead to the board and a sensing terminal with a lead to the probe.

Also, does anyone know how to make the frame a bit bigger. The schematic is growing a bit big for the current frame. WARNING, WARNING, KiCad newbie alert ;)

Right. Time to play software. Gonna see if I can get Shaun's board running with the GUI and teacup. :)

Thanks everyone.

Rob

[Robsbots]

Apologies Stuart.

* Rob kicks auto-correct in the syllables..

I will now try to get Stuart's board running with Teacup and the current GUI.

[Carlos García]

No clue about the uSD card socket, but the screw terminals are present in the default libraries ("CONN" in the schematic and "bornier" in the layout).

Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing: http://www.conrad.fr/medias/global/ce/7000_7999/7300/7310/7310/731091_LB_00_FB.EPS_1000.jpg

Oh, and: File->Page settings->Page size ;-)

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[Robert Last]

Perfect. I have a bit more space to play with now. I'm used to EagleCAD and the Frame border is a part in the library. Did not even think to check the file menu.

Just had a look at the bornier footprints and they look like the ones.  Just need to find a uSD card socket and I should be ready to have a crack at the board layout.

I have just received a couple of relays from Farnell, so I'll test those with my spindle and then try to find or build a library and footprint for them if they prove ok.  They should be fine. This is the relay :- Farnell relay

Thanks for the tips Carlos.

Rob.

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[Samuel Kranz]

Maybe you can use this "eagle2kicad-library-converter": http://library.oshec.org/

[Laimonas Mockus]

I suggest 24 pin ATX (Molex Mini-Fit Jr https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9497) as a power source. Probably 4 pin ATX (12V dedicated output) connector for powering Mosfet outputs.

[Iceflow]

Its a little overkill to use a 24P molex to only use 12V and maybe 5V... with a power regulator you can get 5V in less space.

El 29 de agosto de 2013 00:07, Laimonas Mockus <laimona...@gmail.com> escribió:

I suggest 24 pin ATX (Molex Mini-Fit Jr https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9497) as a power source. Probably 4 pin ATX (12V dedicated output) connector for powering Mosfet outputs.

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[Alex]

Hi,

The only reason to use the 24P Molex is to shutdown the ATX alim when not needed.

The GEN7 with Teacup FW does that : it runs with minimal current consumption when there is no need for power, then powers up the ATX when it needs to move/warm.
http://reprap.org/wiki/Gen7_Board-AVR_1.5#Possible_Power_Sources

If you don't plan to implement this feature, I agree with Iceflow : maybe it's overkill and 2 HD Molex can do the job (12V and 5V, 10A).

Alex

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[Iceflow]

You can do the same with only one more pin, without the need of the whole molex. You only need to conect the green cable from de 24P molex, thats the one that turns ON and OFF the power supply while in standby... the RAMPS electronics includes this "option" in his pins by default.

And we need to think that not all the people use PC power supplies... its better to think in all the options.

2013/8/29 Alex <alex.f...@gmail.com>

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[Carlos García]

I agree with Iceflow, in fact you would have trouble looking for 48V PC power supplies :-)

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[Robert Last]

Hi all.

My current plan is to provide screw connectors for all power supply inputs and for all power outputs such as spindle etc.
This provides an easy option for connection to any supply. If you wish to use a pc power supply you can wire up a cable to go from bare wire to molex if required, or just cut the plug off the supply and use bare wires straight to the board.

All signal connectors will be 0.1" centre pin headers. Hopefully this will be hobbyist friendly and easy to build with peoples current equipment and parts box.

Rob.

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[Alex]

Hi everyone,
You're right, a PC PSU doesn't have to be mandatory.
The option for ATX control would be great :)

Alex

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[Robert Last]

With my current design there will be some spare 5 volt tolerant digital pins available. One of these could be used for the ATX power control. The firmware would need to be updated of course. I will also need to look into Z-Probing as I have not included anything in the design to accomplish that yet.

Rob

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[Laimonas Mockus]

2013 m. rugpjūtis 29 d., ketvirtadienis 10:41:39 UTC+3, Carlos García Saura rašė:

I agree with Iceflow, in fact you would have trouble looking for 48V PC power supplies :-)

Consider the size of a heatsink on the 5V regulator with 48V power supply :)

[Laimonas Mockus]

2013 m. rugpjūtis 28 d., trečiadienis 17:36:30 UTC+3, Robsbots rašė:

If anybody knows where to find a uSD card socket lib and footprint for an easy to find component I would love to hear. I also need screw terminal lib and mod files.
Once I have found these I can start to lay out the board.

SD card libs: I see the native "SDCARD-REVERSE"
Pololu driver compatible: https://github.com/jharvey/Cinch_enclosure_template/tree/master/KICAD_Project/PCB-modules/pololu

[Robsbots]

Hi all

This is a snap of the current circuit.  I have added Z-probing. (Bottom left corner). Let me know if this is ok.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Add9HHF.png[/IMG]

Hopefully this will come up as a pic rather than a links.

I haven’t tried it yet but I think the SD card holder you mention is of the standard size.  Correct me if I'm wrong of course. I normally am ;). I would really like to find a micro SD card socket if possible, as that seems to be the most popular at the moment.

Thanks

Rob

[Iceflow]

Will be the 128 the "proposed" chip? dont really know at the moment, but i think it will be a little low in memory for a "good" firmware... :(

Think that marlin firmware with lcd support dont "fit" in an atmega644p... it needs at least the 1284p, for memory reasons.

2013/9/1 Robsbots <r...@robsbots.org.uk>

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[Robsbots]

Hi Iceflow.

I was planning on the 1284p. Think its the same chip as the Sanguinololu uses.  The circuit is heavily "influenced" by the Sanguinololu. (Ok. I copied most of it :) )

[Iceflow]

Ops, ok then :D looks like its perfect for the work the 1284p hehehe

El 1 de septiembre de 2013 21:23, Robsbots <r...@robsbots.org.uk> escribió:

Hi Iceflow.

I was planning on the 1284p. Think its the same chip as the Sanguinololu uses.  The circuit is heavily "influenced" by the Sanguinololu. (Ok. I copied most of it :) )

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[danielpub...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, August 14, 2013 2:43:46 AM UTC+2, Robsbots wrote:

My plan is that Cyclone should be able to mill it's own pcb. I would like everyone’s input on a board design.

I think the board should be single sided, probably though hole components.

Would an Arduino shield be best or a self contained controller with its own processor ?

If it is self contained, which processor would be best ? (I plan on an Arduino shield or an Arduino compatible controller to stay compatible with current firmware)

Should the stepper drivers be plug in modules (pololu style) or on board ?

Would a high power pwm enabled spindle output be useful or would a relay output be better ?, Or both so there is the option of using either ?
What is the maximum current draw likely to be needed by the spindle ?
What other I/O would you like on the board ?
Probe input ?
Lcd connector ?
Card reader ?
Control buttons to move the axis/interact with the lcd and run jobs from the card reader ?
Emergency stop ?
Anything else that would be useful ?

I'm currently using EagleCAD free edition so the board is limited in size but this shouldn't be a problem.  Is there a package that people prefer ?
I can switch to any package as long as it's free :)

Nothing is set in stone. Anything can change. Let me know all your thoughts and I'll put a board together.

Thanks

Rob

[danielpub...@gmail.com]

Check out Sanguish. It's cheap, the right size (& punch ;)) and is through hole.

(Oh and Visolate too btw..)


On Saturday, August 17, 2013 12:56:33 AM UTC+2, Iceflow wrote:

Look at the lastest Gen7... it packs a direct USB chip for the comunication, it looks easy to inplement but its has a SMD package.

El 16/08/2013 22:57, "Stuart Mitchell" <auzz...@gmail.com> escribió:

have a look here

http://blog.think3dprint3d.com/search?updated-min=2012-01-01T00:00:00Z&updated-max=2013-01-01T00:00:00Z&max-results=11

Sanguinololu using l2c for LCD, SDcard reader

Stuart

On Saturday, August 17, 2013 6:20:03 AM UTC+10, Robsbots wrote:

I did not think about I2C. That would be a good plan.

Not sure how this would affect the firmware.

I wonder if the sd card reader could also be run from I2C ........

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[Kobus du Toit]

Is it possible to design the board for Nema 23's?

I know we are only using 17's now.  I assume Nema 23's will have more power and will be able to go faster.  Ofcourse we will need a stronger spindle also then :)

[Robsbots]

Not sure if Nema 23's will be any faster.  They would produce more torque. To gain greater speed the gearing would need to be changed. With nema 23's that would be quite possible but they would require more current. This would mean we would need a driver that could handle the higher currents. Currently I think the stepstick drivers used in the Ramps boards and similar are running at their limit. They produce a lot of heat which makes me think we will not be able to use them for nema23's.

A higher power driver would be needed.  This would put the price of the controller up and may mean we would need to go for a separate stepper controller and driver chip rather than the all in one chip used on the stepstick type boards.  It should not be a problem to design a board to handle larger motors though.

It might be sensible to design a cnc controller and then have separate driver boards for each axis. This way you could have a standard controller and decided on the drivers to match your steppers.

I believe this is standard practice with some manufactures.

Rob

[Kobus du Toit]

I like that, componentised development.  Buy what you need

[danielpub...@gmail.com]

It doesn’t necessarily mean that these drivers would cost more. Take a gander at Sanguish.

[Samuel Kranz]

The Toshiba drivers are cheaper than the Pololu Drivers and hold about 3.5Amps (Pololu 2.5Amps). 

Maybe they are the better choice. Here is an article about them: 

http://www.cuteminds.com/index.php/en/tb6560ahq

[Samuel Kranz]

How do you do with the design of the board? Any updates at this time?

[Robert Last]

Hi Samuel.

I have started to lay out a board. I think I may need to change the pins
currently used to control the various parts though as I would like to
keep it as a single sided board and currently I have lots of crossed wires.

I am currently using the Sanguinololu pin out but this will mean lots of
jumpers/wire links on the board. If no one has any reasons not to, I
will change the pin outs to make the board easier to lay out and keep
the wire links to a minimum.

[Samuel Kranz]

I think changing the pins is not a problem. Someone only has to add a new board (pinconfig) for the Cycloneboard..

[Robert Last]

Excellent. Hopefully I will have some time this evening to have a play
with the currently layout and will update the pins in current use.

On 13/09/13 17:22, Samuel Kranz wrote:
> I think changing the pins is not a problem. Someone only has to add a
> new board (pinconfig) for the Cycloneboard..

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[Iceflow]

Take a look at the Gen7 board... it uses the 1284p and its a single sided board already!! :D

That would be your best start point i think ;)

El 13 de septiembre de 2013 18:27, Robert Last <r...@robsbots.org.uk> escribió:

Excellent.  Hopefully I will have some time this evening to have a play with the currently layout and will update the pins in current use.

On 13/09/13 17:22, Samuel Kranz wrote:

I think changing the pins is not a problem. Someone only has to add a new board (pinconfig) for the Cycloneboard..
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[Robert Last]

Sounds good. I'll check it out. Think I really only need to change a few pins round on the current board though. Once I have done that, I'll try to increase all the track widths on the power nets and it should be ready to go.

On 13/09/13 17:43, Iceflow wrote:

Take a look at the Gen7 board... it uses the 1284p and its a single sided board already!! :D

That would be your best start point i think ;)

El 13 de septiembre de 2013 18:27, Robert Last <r...@robsbots.org.uk> escribió:

Excellent.  Hopefully I will have some time this evening to have a play with the currently layout and will update the pins in current use.

On 13/09/13 17:22, Samuel Kranz wrote:

I think changing the pins is not a problem. Someone only has to add a new board (pinconfig) for the Cycloneboard..
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[Robsbots]

This is where I am currently.

I have changed various pins round so the board is easier to route.

The Schematic :-
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/2GgJ2zD.png[/IMG]

The Board so far :-

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/LzQsohI.png[/IMG]

This is the first board I have done with Kicad. I'm getting to like it.

So far I have not built this circuit but it SHOULD work.  Currently I don't have the cash to get the parts. Work has dropped off so all I have is time, not cash.

Let me know what you think so far. If anyone would like the files to play with let me know and I'll upload them somewhere.

All comments and criticism welcome. I need all the help I can get ;)

Rob

[Samuel Kranz]

Looks good :D

[Iceflow]

Looks so great :D but it seems to be a little big... what is the size?

2013/9/14 Samuel Kranz <secu...@gmail.com>

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[Robsbots]

Its about 8" x 5" currently. I agree, it is large.  I dropped the screw terminals down one edge and that's how the board grew. I will play with it a bit and get it to a more sensible size though.

As I say. If anyone would like the files to play with and have a go at a design drop me a note here and I'll publish what I have so far.

On Saturday, 14 September 2013 18:38:09 UTC+1, Iceflow wrote:

Looks so great :D but it seems to be a little big... what is the size?

2013/9/14 Samuel Kranz <secu...@gmail.com>

Looks good :D

Am Samstag, 14. September 2013 18:45:53 UTC+2 schrieb Robsbots:

This is where I am currently.

I have changed various pins round so the board is easier to route.

The Schematic :-
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/2GgJ2zD.png[/IMG]

The Board so far :-

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/LzQsohI.png[/IMG]

This is the first board I have done with Kicad. I'm getting to like it.

So far I have not built this circuit but it SHOULD work.  Currently I don't have the cash to get the parts. Work has dropped off so all I have is time, not cash.

Let me know what you think so far. If anyone would like the files to play with let me know and I'll upload them somewhere.

All comments and criticism welcome. I need all the help I can get ;)

Rob

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[Iceflow]

Im not an expert, and have little know about electronics, but what i see is that there is a lot of unesed space in between components... maybe wiht another layout it would be better use.

2013/9/14 Robsbots <r...@robsbots.org.uk>

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[Carlos García]

Hi Rob, I think it is quite a design for a beginner with Kicad, great work! :P

As Iceflow says it is still too big, but I know it takes time to polish these things.

The only thing I see is: shouldn't the FTDI chip be SMT instead of THT?

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[Robert Last]

I have been trying to keep the whole design THT if possible.  For some reason I thought the FT230X was available as a through hole component, but I have just check the data sheet and it appears it is not. :(
Currently the only component that's SMT is the uSD card slot. The FT230X will also need to be changed to an SMT part.

As I say. None of this has been tested, but it should work.

I'm not sure how fine the traces should be for the cyclone. I was going to beef up the traces to make sure the cyclone could machine them.

I would also like to find some smaller screw terminals for the connections to the board. I have been trying to keep all the connections along one edge to make the board easier to wire. With smaller connector this would make the board size much smaller. I have added pin headers for the stepper motors as well as the screw headers.

I may move the MOSFET/relay connectors to one side of the board. This should also shrink the board size down.

Do you have any idea of the spacing between tracks required for the cyclone, or the minimum track widths ?
I assume this would be dependent on the pcb material used as well as the machine.

Thanks

Rob

2013/9/14 Robsbots <r...@robsbots.org.uk>

2013/9/14 Samuel Kranz <secu...@gmail.com>

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[Carlos García]

Everything makes sense :)

I don't know smaller screw terminals, but maybe you can cut the number of pins by using a common ground.

For the tracks, I wouldn't keep thickness lower than 0.5mm (until serious testing is done :P)

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[Alex]

About the USB/Serial SMT, I've soldered the MCP2200 (http://de.rs-online.com/web/p/products/6988993/) on my brand new GEN7 and it's not that hard.

So go SMT if this component is good :)

BTW, neath job !

+

Alex

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[Robsbots]

Well. This is the latest. I've moved the terminals around a bit, made the board a bit smaller, changed the FT230X to SMT and made the tracks a bit bigger where I could.

Currently the board is just over 6" x just under 6" or 150mm ish x 150mm ish. I have left a bit of space at each corner for mounting holes.

Its a single sided board with a few jumper wires in red.

Let me know what you all think.

[Iceflow]

Hello!! It looks much more better now :D still a little big, but it seems the space its better used. It will be, probably, easy to mill or to etch. Good work!!

The pin spacing of the mcp doesnt look like the smt ones... it still seems to be troughthole, or am i missing something?

2013/9/17 Robsbots <r...@robsbots.org.uk>

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[Robsbots]

I'm trying to keep everything THT. The only components that are SMT are the serial to usb converter chip and the uSD card slot. Everything else is designed to be though hole and quite large so as to give the Cyclone a good change of making it.  Once I get my machine up and running I'll have a better idea of what it is capable of, but currently I'm trying to make the board as easy as possible to machine.

I agree the board is still quite large but it does offer quite a few options, There are 2 large relays and 2 MOSFET's to power what ever you need. All the power supplies for these are kept separate from other supplies. There is also a 5 volt out connector to power other logic if required. Note to self :- Must add some headers for the spare pins.

If it is able to be milled by the Cyclone I'll be happy.

I may start on a new controller soon. This will use different stepper drivers and may well be several boards. 1 Controller, One board for each axis, another to control large loads such as the spindle and one more for the user interface with buttons, lcd etc.

really I just want to get something that will run the Cyclone, then I can get mine going and try some of this stuff out and see what its capable of.

On Tuesday, 17 September 2013 09:55:18 UTC+1, Iceflow wrote:

Hello!! It looks much more better now :D still a little big, but it seems the space its better used. It will be, probably, easy to mill or to etch. Good work!!

The pin spacing of the mcp doesnt look like the smt ones... it still seems to be troughthole, or am i missing something?

2013/9/17 Robsbots <r...@robsbots.org.uk>

Well. This is the latest. I've moved the terminals around a bit, made the board a bit smaller, changed the FT230X to SMT and made the tracks a bit bigger where I could.

Currently the board is just over 6" x just under 6" or 150mm ish x 150mm ish. I have left a bit of space at each corner for mounting holes.

Its a single sided board with a few jumper wires in red.

Let me know what you all think.

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[Iceflow]

The Cyclone is capable of doing paths for smd components in theory, so your board will be like stealing a candy from a baby, an easy job hehehhehe

2013/9/17 Robsbots <r...@robsbots.org.uk>

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[Robsbots]

If anyone would like to have a go at making it, here are the design files.

Cyclone controller

They are in KiCAD format.

If you have problems opening them, give me a shout. You may need some libraries.

Feel free to play with them.

Once I get a machine up and running I'll have a crack at making it my self.

Please note. Firmware will need to be updated to use this board as the buttons, lcd and uSD card are all accessed via I2C. It should be usable to run the machine though.

Let me know if you have any success or failures.

Thanks

Rob

[Carlos García]

Hi Rob, thanks for sharing :)

The board opens fine (looks awesome!)

For the schematic it gives the following error:

The following libraries could not be found:

• opendous
  
• w_connectors
  
• MCP23017
  
• FT230X
  

What I do with my Kicad designs is place the libs in a local folder near each project and reference them with a relative path.

Thanks again :P

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[Robsbots]

Hi Carlos

I have updated the zip file with the libraries and with gerber files.

Not sure if the gerbers are correct. These are the first I have generated with KiCAD.

Let me know what you think.

If there is a better place to host the files let me know. Otherwise I can host them from my site. I can host any other files there if you need.

Cyclone controller Alpha.zip

[Robsbots]

Hi everyone.

After the input from everyone here I have had a second crack at a controller board.
I have dropped the port expander, buttons, lcd and uSD slot.

The board is currently about 5 inches by 3 inches (125mm x 80mm) and should now fit into the cyclone work area.

I have added a couple of headers. One for an I2C connection. This can then have a second board with lcd, buttons uSD slot etc.
There is also a header for the unused pins on the AVR for expansion. Hopefully this board will be expandable.

Let me know what you think.

The files can be found here. They can be opened with KiCad.  Let me know if you have any problems with the files or if anything is missing.

This is a picture of the schematic and board layout as it is currently.

<a href="http://imgur.com/f0js5Vo"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/f0js5Vo.png" title="Hosted by imgur.com"/></a>

<a href="http://imgur.com/4fMPeJ6"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/4fMPeJ6.png" title="Hosted by imgur.com"/></a>

[Daniel "yOPERO" Garrido]

looks good! as soon as I get time I will review it and give you feed back if any.

[Samuel Kranz]

Yeah looks much better than the first one ;) maybe you should add some holes to mount the pcb..

[Carlos García]

I really like the new design, it is very complete!

Not only as a controller board, but also as a reference since it has all the kind of elements that we want to be able to mill. And it has to be milled with Cyclone :)

Also, the schematic is very clear. Thank you!!

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[Robsbots]

Hi guys.

Glad you like the board so far.


I have updated it a little to add some mounting holes as noted by Daniel

I have most of the components to test the board out. Just waiting for a couple of bits, then I can build it on a bread board and see if it actually works ;).

I will also design a board with some buttons/lcd/uSD socket so we can mill straight from files on a memory card. This will be connected to the I2C bus. Not sure what would be required for the firmware to make this work, but it shouldn't be too difficult to make it work.

The updated files can be found here

[Samuel Kranz]

Why do you want to build it on a bread board.. if your cyclone is ready why not mill it? 

[Robert Last]

As yet I havn't milled anything. I still have a few bits to tidy up on
the cyclone and have to test it out.

Also I thought it would be a good plan to test the design before I
actully try to make it.

There are bound to be a few bugs in there somewhere.

Still a little way to go before I start milling, but I'm getting there.

On 27/09/13 15:19, Samuel Kranz wrote:
> Why do you want to build it on a bread board.. if your cyclone is
> ready why not mill it?

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[Robsbots]

Hi all

Version Alpha 0.4 of the controller is now avaiable for anyone that would like to try it. (You will need kicad to load the files)

The files can be found here https://github.com/carlosgs/Cyclone-PCB-Factory/tree/master/Electronics/Robs_CycloneController
(Ignore the fact that it say's A0.3 everywhere. These are the right files.)

I think this should now be a working board. Still need to test it out though.  Currently I'm building the circuit on bread boards to check it's all ok.
Let me know if you have any problems or suggestions for improvements.

I have added a licence for the design and have also added a complete parts list in csv format.
Part numbers are for Farnell.
You will also need 3 x Stepper driver modules such as the Pololu A4989 Carriers.

I have also made a few changes to the board including the correct footprints for the relays specified.
A couple of the footprints are untested including the relays, but they should be ok.

Thanks go to Carlos for updating the README.md file and uploading the design to his repository.

[Iceflow]

Is there a way that i can get the gerbers for the pcb to order a batch?

Im too lazy to install kicad hehehe

thanks for the good work!! ;)

2013/10/5 Robsbots <r...@robsbots.org.uk>

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[Samuel Kranz]

I am joining iceflows` lazyness..

Am Donnerstag, 10. Oktober 2013 20:39:53 UTC+2 schrieb Iceflow:

Is there a way that i can get the gerbers for the pcb to order a batch?

Im too lazy to install kicad hehehe

thanks for the good work!! ;)

2013/10/5 Robsbots <r...@robsbots.org.uk>

Hi all

Version Alpha 0.4 of the controller is now avaiable for anyone that would like to try it. (You will need kicad to load the files)

The files can be found here https://github.com/carlosgs/Cyclone-PCB-Factory/tree/master/Electronics/Robs_CycloneController
(Ignore the fact that it say's A0.3 everywhere. These are the right files.)

I think this should now be a working board. Still need to test it out though.  Currently I'm building the circuit on bread boards to check it's all ok.
Let me know if you have any problems or suggestions for improvements.

I have added a licence for the design and have also added a complete parts list in csv format.
Part numbers are for Farnell.
You will also need 3 x Stepper driver modules such as the Pololu A4989 Carriers.

I have also made a few changes to the board including the correct footprints for the relays specified.
A couple of the footprints are untested including the relays, but they should be ok.

Thanks go to Carlos for updating the README.md file and uploading the design to his repository.

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[Iceflow]

;) hehehehhee

I usually use fusionpcb, i will order ten pcbs, so if anyone wants one when i received the order im pleased to send some, only chargin the shipping and the "proportional" part of the order, usually its a low price, it depends on the board size.

2013/10/10 Samuel Kranz <secu...@gmail.com>

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[Samuel Kranz]

How much does it cost then? IF it isnt too high Im in..

[Iceflow]

I cant know without the gerbers to "ask" for the price and see the measures of the pcb...

El 11 de octubre de 2013 12:05, Samuel Kranz <secu...@gmail.com> escribió:

How much does it cost then? IF it isnt too high Im in..

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[Robsbots]

Hi Guys.

I am making a couple of small changes to the board to hopefully make it a little easier to wire. Once I have done that I will publish the designs with the gerber files hopefully later today.

Please note : THIS DESIGN IS UNTESTED.

Sorry for shouting. It may work. It may not. Be warned.
The Marlin firmware will need editing to create a new type of board as well.

The design was meant to be made on the Cyclone it's self. The board could be made much smaller for production, especially if you go for double sided. Currently it is single sided with a couple of jumper on the top side.

After all that, I would love to get hold of a board if there is a spare.

Thanks

Rob

On Friday, 11 October 2013 11:12:05 UTC+1, Iceflow wrote:

I cant know without the gerbers to "ask" for the price and see the measures of the pcb...

El 11 de octubre de 2013 12:05, Samuel Kranz <secu...@gmail.com> escribió:

How much does it cost then? IF it isnt too high Im in..

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[Robsbots]

Let me know what options you would like on the gerber files from the image below.



Thanks.

Rob

[Iceflow]

I really dont know hehehhe i suppose that a "normal" gerber would do :P i usually take "precooked" gerbers, dont really know much of doing pcbs :(

With one gerber for the silkscreen one for the copper and one for the drills it will be ok i think.

Can you also share one photolith mirrored?, ready to etch with home methods, i can try that first and test the board :D

Also with the configuration in marlin it wouldnt be so hard, only need to declare the pins. Could you make a little "cheatsheet" to see what pin do what?

2013/10/11 Robsbots <r...@robsbots.org.uk>

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[Robsbots]

Hi guys.

Sorry for the delay. I think you should be able to find the latest files for the Cyclone pcb design here :-
https://github.com/robsbots/Cyclone_Pcb

It includes some gerber files and a drill file in the output directory.

Let me know how you get on.

As always, WARNING. untested.

One day I will stop typing that :)

Let me know what you think and how you get on.

Thanks

Rob

[Iceflow]

I cant open "controller-Back.ps.pdf" with adobe reader :S

2013/10/17 Robsbots <r...@robsbots.org.uk>

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[Robsbots]

Hi all.

I have had another crack at github and the files should be available here :-
https://github.com/robsbots/Cyclone_Pcb

I have removed the pdf files. Unfortunately I do not seem able to make a working pdf of the gerber files. I will look into this. I have added two post script files for the copper side of the board. Both from the top and bottom (ie: Mirrored).

Let me know how you get on.

Thanks,

Rob.

[Iceflow]

Here you have, PDFs made from your PS files :D

I have to try and make one of this with the toner transfer method.

2013/10/18 Robsbots <r...@robsbots.org.uk>

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[Robsbots]

Thanks Iceflow.
I have added them to the output folder in the git repository.

[Iceflow]

To you, for the work in this pcb :D

El 18 de octubre de 2013 19:35, Robsbots <r...@robsbots.org.uk> escribió:

Thanks Iceflow.
I have added them to the output folder in the git repository.

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[Robsbots]

Hi all.

I have found a problem wit my current circuit design.  At the moment the circuit is not programmable via the usb port using the Arduino IDE.
(It should work ok with an isp programmer though.)

I need to do a little research and may need the change the FT203X chip for another similar chip.
I also need to get a new avr programmer to test out my theories.

Give me a few days and I'll get working on an update.

Apologies.

Rob

[Samuel Kranz]

Why is it unprogrammable with the arduino IDE?

[Robsbots]

I think I need the DTR line brought out to the reset pin on the 1248p chip, but I don't think the FT230X can provide that.

It should be programmable using the icsp socket though.

I plan to replace the 16 pin FT230X with the 28 pin FT232RL which does provied the DTR line. This should mean you only need to program the AVR with an Arduino boot loader once, then you can upgrade the software via the Arduino IDE and the USB port.

I'm not sure on all this, but have ordered some more parts and should be able to get it tested soon.

Rob.

[Samuel Kranz]

Oh.. I thought DTR could be programmed on one of the CBUS pins .. anyway there are lots of other uart-bootloaders for the 8-Bit AVR.

so it is also programmable over usb (DTR is not always needed) unfortunately ArduinoIDE needs DTR..

One of those bootloaders (without DTR) is:

http://www.mikrocontroller.net/articles/AVR_Bootloader_FastBoot_von_Peter_Dannegger

(some German skills will be useful ^^)

I already used that bootloader so if someone has problems compiling it -> just drop a message..

For the future design I would also suggest to use the FT232.. (maybe FT231?)

[Iceflow]

Use the same as in sanguinololu, it works ok for the comunications.

2013/10/20 Samuel Kranz <secu...@gmail.com>

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