High pH juice

[James Fidell]

On Monday I pressed 180 litres of Harry Masters Jersey. OG is about
1060 which I'm fine with, but the pH (as measured with indicator strips)
appears to be around 4.4. That seems quite high and I'm contemplating
adding some Bramley juice to try to reduce it. Does that seem
reasonable?

James

[Ray Blockley]

Hi James.

Very reasonable. I'd be aiming to get it down to pH3.8 or at least below pH4.0? 

As an "in emergency break glass" situation, it's worth keeping some Malic Acid as back up too. 

Good luck.

Ray

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[Andrew Lea]

I agree absolutely with Ray.  I too have recently pressed HMJ also running at the same pH and SG. As is my wont, I blended it with fermenting Foxwhelp at pH 3.2 which was pressed about a month ago.  It is very convenient that Foxwhelp is a very acidic fruit and also ripens early.  

Andrew 

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[James Fidell]

On 06/11/2025 07:59, Andrew Lea wrote:
> I agree absolutely with Ray.  I too have recently pressed HMJ also
> running at the same pH and SG. As is my wont, I blended it with
> fermenting Foxwhelp at pH 3.2 which was pressed about a month ago.  It
> is very convenient that Foxwhelp is a very acidic fruit and also ripens
> early.

Oddly enough, I also have some fermenting Foxwhelp :) Not a huge
amount, but I'll look into that.

James

[rhand...@rockisland.com]

Yes, even our  HMJ’s in NW Washington State run a PH of 4+.

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[James Fidell]

On 06/11/2025 07:12, Ray Blockley wrote:

> As an "in emergency break glass" situation, it's worth keeping some
> Malic Acid as back up too.

Is there any relatively easy way to estimate how much malic acid is
required to lower the pH of a given volume of apple juice? Just
being able to get a ball-park figure would be very helpful.

And is there anywhere in particular worth purchasing it from? Vigo
for instance appear to be quite expensive.

James

[Claude Jolicoeur]

To have a very rough idea, you can assume HMJ would have between 1 and 2 g/L of malic acid, while a well balanced blend would have around 4 to 5 g/L. So you'd need to add somewhere around 2 to 3 grams of malic acid per liter. The method generally recommended is to add say 1g/L, then measure the pH, and continue incrementally until you get to desired pH.

[gareth chapman]

That's what I do. Work with turntable acidity adding the acid incrementally. I also use the same principle when blending for acidity.

[Ray Blockley]

Sorry James, only just picked up your query - but you now have the answer I would have given.

The other advice I'd give is to make lots of notes - we now have a fairly accurate idea how much Malic Acid to add to each container to get the incremental drop we require? 

The final bit of advice I'd offer is to ditch the pH papers & invest in a decent pH meter - makes life much easier, & far more accurate & reliable.

Good luck.

Ray.

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[Hugo Shuttleworth]

I am in a similar situation with a barrel of Somerset Redstreak. Can I ask for advice on how best to incorporate the malic acid powder? 

Does it dissolve quite easily if mixed straight in or is it best to take out a gallon or so and whisk in say 440g of the powder before returning to the barrel?

Thanks,

Hugo

[James Fidell]

On 07/11/2025 08:39, Ray Blockley wrote:

> The final bit of advice I'd offer is to ditch the pH papers & invest in
> a decent pH meter - makes life much easier, & far more accurate & reliable.

I feel sure I read somewhere that pH meters weren't considered reliable
for weak organic acids such as malic (possibly because of the way they
disassociate in solution?). Did I misunderstand, or is that no longer
considered to be the case?

James

[Ray Blockley]

I think it very much depends on the pH meter? 
Majority of the cider makers I know use pH meters of one sort or another? 
You do need to ensure the meter will work *in the range* you will be dealing with & some manufacturers (ie Hanna instruments) make models specifically for alcoholic drinks - in effect narrow-range pH meters (for cider, beer, wine, etc). Check specifications carefully & if in doubt, contact them for advice. 

Ray. 

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[Ray Blockley]

**What works for us:** 
We draw off 500ml or so of cider into a sterilised jug.
We then stir in the amount of Malic Acid our table (from our notes) shows we need to add to lower the pH by, for that size of fermenter (we use 60L & 220L primarily).
Over the decades, we have found working by the level measuring spoon works best for us? So we keep a range of s/steel measuring spoons to hand in the cider shed. 

We now have a set of fine "druggie scales" but the spoons are quick, simple, tough & corrosion proof. 

The powder will quickly dissolve when stirred well & then the whole can then be stirred into the bulk. 

Good advice is to double check the pH of the bulk 24hrs after adding any Malic - belts & braces stuff, really. 

Always remember that pH is not linear - so tread carefully & make lots of notes!

As to sources for Malic Acid - Vigo, or Vigopresses (often better value), or a good brew shop. Be wary of online sales, particularly eBay *unless* they have a link to their online shop where you can fully check them out. 

Ray. 

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[Andrew Lea]

The cider and wine industry has used regular pH meters for a good 70 years. I think you may be confused with malate or any other solutions that are unbuffered and have a very low ionic strength. All ciders and wines are highly buffered and I don’t believe this applies in real life.

Andrew

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[James Fidell]

On 07/11/2025 13:24, Andrew Lea wrote:

> The cider and wine industry has used regular pH meters for a good 70
> years. I think you may be confused with malate or any other solutions
> that are unbuffered and have a very low ionic strength. All ciders and
> wines are highly buffered and I don’t believe this applies in real life.

I'll have to discuss this with my tame chemist :) (My son is doing a
chemistry-based DPhil at Oxford, so he's now teaching me science instead
of the other way around :D I'm quite enjoying it.)

I checked through my previous discussions with him and he has told me
that weak organic acids do not necessarily fully dissociate in solution,
which means that a pH reading will be wrong. However, under known
conditions it is possible to calculate a "dissociation constant" and
apply that to convert between a pH value and the actual acidity that
would be measured by (say) titration.

Of course, if you just have the knowledge that the measured pH should be
"some value" then I can't see a reason why a pH meter shouldn't be
absolutely fine.

James

[Francis Bonenfant]

 At the same concentration, at equal titratable acidity,  a weak acid will have a higher pH (which the dissociation constant helps calculate) than a strong acid.  But  pH is pH. If you properly measure pH, that's the value. The dissociation constant also comes into play if you try to calculate an acid addition to adjust pH, but really since reality is complicated, it's best to do something like what everyone here wrote and make small additions gradually, measuring pH after (or make test additions on a smaller volume of juice/cider). 

What is "unreliable" is using pH measuring to try and infer a titratable acidity value.   This doesn't work for a complex system with weak acids. There's a large range of possible pH for one TA.     I seem to remember there's a section on this in Claude's book

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 10 novembre 2025 à 12:21:00 UTC-5, Francis Bonenfant a écrit :

 What is "unreliable" is using pH measuring to try and infer a titratable acidity value.   This doesn't work for a complex system with weak acids. There's a large range of possible pH for one TA.     I seem to remember there's a section on this in Claude's book

Yes in effect I have done some work on this, reported in my book. However, if individual measurements for a single variety sample may show quite large variations in the pH-TA relation, it is much less so in blends. I find that if I aim for a TA around 5 g/L equivalent malic acid for my blend, the pH is always fine and near 3.6 - which gives a nicely balanced blend in my taste. Now I don't measure pH anymore, and rely on TA - which I find easier to measure (no calibration problems with buffers etc...)

[James Fidell]

On 10/11/2025 17:43, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:

> Yes in effect I have done some work on this, reported in my book.

I think that might be where I read it first. I just couldn't find the
reference when I was looking the other day.

I now feel as though I understand the issue much better, so thank you
to all those who contributed.

James

[James Fidell]

Just a final update on this...

I added 2.5g/litre of malic acid to my pH 4.4 Harry Master's Jersey
juice in stages over the last few days and it now looks to be in the
right sort of place. I'll do one last check tomorrow just to make
sure.

With a bit of luck and a following wind, tomorrow I might actually get
to press the Yarlington Mill apples that I've had sitting about for at
least a week.

James