Implications of theories of migration of people into the Indian subcontinent

[Pradyumna Achar]

सादरं वन्दनानि 

I only recently became privy to the existence of theories that state that people outside the Indian subcontinent came into the subcontinent and they brought in with them Hinduism somewhere around 4000 BCE.

I am wondering what all do we have to give up if we accept such theories?

   - Mahabharata, Bhagavata, Ramayana have to be accepted as fiction as they mention events on dates that are much older than these, and happening in places in India.

   - Vedas have to be accepted as created by someone (nomadic people who came into India) as opposed to being anadi-nitya and apourusheya

   - Having accepted shrutis and smrutis as works of fiction, and/or as moral/social guidelines, the phala they mention (both aihika and paratrika) of kriyas such as bramha jignaasa, nama sankeertana, devata namana, teertha yatra, etc, have to be treated as false and non-existent or at most some kind of morale boosters.

   - In the absence of phala, there is no need to do any of such kriyas

If so, I am surprised that any practicing Hindu could accept them.

-Pradyumna

[विश्वासो वासुकेयः]

On Friday, September 20, 2019 at 8:31:23 PM UTC+5:30, Pradyumna Achar wrote:

सादरं वन्दनानि 

I only recently became privy to the existence of theories that state that people outside the Indian subcontinent came into the subcontinent and they brought in with them Hinduism somewhere around 4000 BCE.

I am wondering what all do we have to give up if we accept such theories?

   - Mahabharata, Bhagavata, Ramayana have to be accepted as fiction as they mention events on dates that are much older than these, and happening in places in India.

   - Vedas have to be accepted as created by someone (nomadic people who came into India) as opposed to being anadi-nitya and apourusheya

   - Having accepted shrutis and smrutis as works of fiction, and/or as moral/social guidelines,

Sir, you don't understand the sacred myths as the wise ought to understand them.  For example, shatapathabrAhmaNa says:

अथ यो ऽयम् अवाङ्प्राणः। तेनासुरानसृजत। त इमाम् एव पृथिवीम् अभिपद्यासृज्यन्त। तस्मै ससृजानाय तम इवास। - ११.१.६.[८]

सो ऽवेत् - “पाप्मानं वा असृक्षि, यस्मै मे ससृजानाय तम इवाभूद्” इति।
तांस् तत एव पाप्मना ऽविध्यत्। ते तत एव पराभवंस्, तस्मादाहुर् -
“नैतदस्ति यद्दैवासुरं (युद्धं)
यद् इदम् अन्वाख्याने त्वद् (=एकं) उद्यत, इतिहासे त्वत् (=एकं)।
(कुतश्चेत् -) ततो (पूर्वम्) ह्येव तान् प्रजापतिः पाप्मनाविध्यत्। ते तत एव पराभवन्नि”ति। - ११.१.६.[९]

तस्मादेतदृषिणाभ्यनूक्तम् -
न त्वं युयुत्से कतमच्च (=किमपि) नाहर् (=न हतवान्),
न्न ते ऽमित्रो मघवन् कश्चनास्ति।
मायेत् सा ते यानि युद्धान्याहुर्
नाद्य शत्रून्ननु पुरा युयुत्से॥
इति - ११.१.६.[१०]

 

Perhaps you should consider reading the works of the ancient Roman AchArya Sallustius (who defended his natural religion against Christian criticisms) as a simple guide:

- " Myths are divine, are "like the Gods", but are obviously not to be taken literally. They contain both commonly understandable declarations about the Gods and mysteries only understood by the wise. It's paradoxes and uncouth elements mean also to alert us that their words are veils."
- "Myths have been used by inspired poets, by the best of philosophers, by those who established the mysteries, and by the Gods themselves in oracles."
- "(They) make the Gods well disposed to those who speak of them."
- "Now the myths represent the Gods themselves and the goodness of the Gods"
- "(Myths are) subject always to the distinction of the speakable and the unspeakable, the revealed and the unrevealed, that which is clear and that which is hidden: since, just as the Gods have made the goods of sense common to all, but those of intellect only to the wise, so the myths state the existence of Gods to all, but who and what they are only to those who can understand. ... Besides, to wish to teach the whole truth about the Gods to all produces contempt in the foolish, because they cannot understand, and lack of zeal in the good, whereas to conceal the truth by myths prevents the contempt of the foolish, and compels the good to practice philosophy."
- "They also represent the activities of the Gods. ... Those who make the world are Zeus, Poseidon, and Hephaistos; those who animate it are Demeter, Hera, and Artemis; those who harmonize it are Apollo, Aphrodite, and Hermes; those who watch over it are Hestia, Athena, and Ares. One can see secret suggestions of this in their images. Apollo tunes a lyre; Athena is armed; Aphrodite is naked (because harmony creates beauty, and beauty in things seen is not covered)."
- "But why have they put in the myths stories of adultery, robbery, father-binding, and all the other absurdity? Is not that perhaps a thing worthy of admiration, done so that by means of the visible absurdity the soul may immediately feel that the words are veils and believe the truth to be a mystery?"
- "Of myths some are theological, some physical, some psychic, and again some material, and some mixed from these last two."

[Irene Galstian]

I agree with Vishvas there. Most scientists of today are materialists, at best they can form guesses based on stones, bones and such.

They aren't in a position to pronounce on the truth of any scripture. In that sense Hindus don't lose or gain anything of significance because someone talks of invasions and migrations, and someone else says they didn't happen.

What's problematic is that some who advocate migrations have an additional agenda to diminish India's role in human consciousness. But scholars like Vishal Agarwal are generally successful at calmly but firmly correcting such insinuations. 

It's a truism that nothing can be taken away if it's not given away, so if India doesn't give away her power and keeps on her chosen path, all this migration stuff is irrelevant. Why even debate with opponents, if the time spent on debate can be spent on constructive improvements for India?

Irene

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 9:23 PM Irene Galstian <gnos...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's a truism that nothing can be taken away if it's not given away, so if India doesn't give away her power and keeps on her chosen path, all this migration stuff is irrelevant. Why even debate with opponents, if the time spent on debate can be spent on constructive improvements for India?

Just because the sacred lore stays relevant independently of history, science etc.., it does not follow that history, science etc.. are irrelevant. Nature is sacred, as is the correct understanding of nature. As I had previously clarified in that separate thread:

तत्र प्रयोजनान्येवम् -

- प्रतिपक्षेण स्वीकृतैरेव प्रमाणैस् तेषां दुराग्रहाणाम् प्रतीकारः - "पश्यत, यूयमपि नादिवासिनः!"। वैज्ञानिकप्रमाणतिरस्कारे तु वयं हि हास्यास्पदानि स्याम। तथा ऽस्मद्विरोधिभ्य एव रिक्ता वेदी समर्पितेव भवति।

- प्राचीनशास्त्राणाम् यथापरिस्थिति +अवगतिः। यथा - कुतो ननु मानवशास्त्रे शूद्राभ्युदयविरोधः कठोरः? कथमिव पुरा गोमांसभक्षणम् प्रशस्तम्?

- अस्मत्पूर्वजानाम् महात्मनाम् अभ्युदयो ज्ञेयः, अस्मत्संस्कृतेर् युवावस्था वीर्यवती ज्ञेया, मध्यकालादारभ्य वयं कथमिवान्यथा वर्तमाना प्राप्तजरावस्था मूढचेतसो गर्त्त इवापताम इति कलनीयम्। स्वदोषाभिज्ञाने तन्मार्जने च शुद्धम् प्रामाणिकं ज्ञानम् उपकरोति। तदर्थम् पुराणानि वर्तन्त एव, तैस् साकन्त्व् आधुनिकेतिहासदृष्टिरपि बहूपकरोति।

Furthermore, the dogged inability to grasp some very clear scientific processes and claims does not bode well for our ability to correctly comprehend and respond to more urgent problems.

[Irene Galstian]

Of course, everything has its place.

Irene

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

From where did Sanskrit get its phonetic components?

Is there any example of a language that is born out of two or more languages and has attained a status higher than the languages out of which it was born both phonetically and syntactically?

What might be the process through which it might have to go?

Why are Sanskrit suffixes considered to be without parallel?

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 22:01 Irene Galstian, <gnos...@gmail.com> wrote:

Of course, everything has its place.

Irene

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