Who killed Sanskrit? Article

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Professors of Sanskrit at Indian universities are just whiling away their time while getting hefty salaries. They themselves can't speak or write correct Sanskrit. Their written and colloquial Sanskrit is not just stale, it's wanting on all counts. At five universities in India, Sanskrit is officially taught in Hindi or other vernaculars, not in Sanskrit! Can there be a bigger irony than this?''

Read more at: https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/main-article/who-killed-sanskrit-756464.html

Read more at - https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/main-article/who-killed-sanskrit-756464.html
--

Regards

 

-Venkatesh

[Irene Galstian]

Yes, the problem of Sanskrit teaching exists, and yes, the difficulty
is compounded by the fact that India is a very large country. But
indiscriminately criticising Indian Sanskritists is a false and
misleading move. And presenting the situation at non-Indian
universities as flawless is dishonest. Other than unnecessarily
offending sincere and hardworking educators, I don't see what this
approach can accomplish. A deeply unfair article.

Irene

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[rniyengar]

The article has some truth in it, but reads to be more of self promotion. 

Any way how to get hold of Dandi's 'Urubhangam' ? I like to read it. Can someone help me.

RNI

Read more at: https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/main-article/who-killed-sanskrit-756464.html

[Hnbhat B.R.]

I also would like to read it!

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[Madhav Deshpande]

I have read Bhāsa's Urubhaṅgam, but did not know that Daṇḍin also composed one.

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Dr. Yadu Moharir]

I agree with Prof Iyenger, that the article has some truth.

What I hope Sanskrit scholars will take away message is to try and acknowledge the reality at present., because you cannot change what you cannot and will not acknowledge.

There have be many posts from aspiring Sanskrit students enqueuing, what type of research dissertation they should do for their Ph.D. ?  I would like them to reflect on why so many R^igvedic shaakhaa's have been lost and why ?

I recall Prof Korada mentioning that there are no quality students in Sanskrit ?

As I have mentioned on this list in past quoting famous words from Late US justice Warren burger, " If you ask the question who is responsible, answer must always be,  I am, You are & we are."

Things can only be improved if we have a desire to do so. कामस्तदग्रे समवर्तताधि मनसो रेतः परथमं यदासीत || 10.129 ||

Hope for the best with fingers crossed,

Dr Yadu

--

Regards

 

-Venkatesh

[Bijoy Misra]

Reads like a "mole",  certainly a self-promoter

Any scholarly writings from this gentleman?

--

[Sundareswaran N.K]

I  fully agree with the spirit of  Irene's post.

 I haven't read "the article".

nks

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[Bijoy Misra]

Search gave some newspaper articles and then this

http://www.milligazette.com/news/2353-hinduism-is-a-violent-faith

Apparently this is a Islamic news bulletin.

Possibly he is some kind of commentator (self appointed!)

 

[Bijoy Misra]

Another article by Sumil Paul in Hindu

https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/open-page/Mystique-of-the-coffeehouse/article16439271.ece

signed at sumitm...@hotmail.com

I didn't find any BORI-related article.

[Yogananda CS]

Namaste,

I am a mathematics professor, was involved in India's participation in International math Olympiads for 15 years and have seen lot of potential which does not seem to yield proportionatly later. I can rewrite almost the same article, replacing Sanskrit with mathematics, or for that matter, any other subject!

Regards. . . . . Yogananda

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[Irene Galstian]

Dandin’s Urubhangam is unknown to WorldCat either, it seems. 

Irene 

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[K S Kannan]

Urubhangam is obviously by Bhasa.

Typically, people with a know-all attitude, and keen to pronounce judgements on others

are easily prone to such errors.

The article bears a spiteful tenor rather than

trying to offer constructive criticism.

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--

Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

[Siddharth Wakankar]

The article is one sided and seems to be written by a half baked Sanskrit scholar and seems to be a Panditammanya and considers himself/ herself to be competent enough to make such statements without giving due respect to the worthy exceptions and has a penchant for sweeping statements.

Must be a paid or patronised and biased scholar. His/ her statements seem to be too much stretched to extremes.

Others have already pointed out his other mistakes.Less said is better,more said us worst.

Prof. Siddharth Y Wakankar.

Vadodara.9427339942.

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[rniyengar]

Can some member from Pune verify whether his claim to have taught at BORI 

["...While teaching Persian and Sanskrit at the world-renowned Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Pune,..."]

is true or just another guffaw like Dandi's Urubhangam!  

Kuempu's love for Sanskrit is as far as I know a false claim.

RNI

Read more at: https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/main-article/who-killed-sanskrit-756464.html

[Saroja Bhate]

During my long association with BORI I never met this scholar even during my tenure as the hon. Secretary of BORI nor do I remembered any courses conducted by him at BORI. Could this be another BORI like Dandi' ऊरुभङ्गम्?

,I do agree with his observation about Sanskrit teachers.I am making my small contribution by motivating Sanskrit students to attend and participate in वाक्यार्थसभाs which has become,  more or less ,a regular feature in Pune though on a small scale.

थसभा

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[Praveen R. Bhat]

Namaste,

Without actually commenting on the article and its content, I'd like to list an observation of mine. While teaching Laghusiddhantakaumudi to some students, I found out that even the Kovida level study that they undergone, which is supposed to be a 4th level, has been from *exam point of view*! This is the basic flaw that I find in all kind of studies, be it Sanskrit, engineering when I studied it or math as Prof. Yoganandaji mentioned in this thread. The commitment to study is lacking and so is the teaching tuned to exams, solving old papers and everything is centred around scoring; thats about it! How much one really learns as to the core of any subject seems to be nobody's business. 

IMO, we have, somewhere around the journey to modern success, lost the gurukula mode, wherein exams are meant only to test the knowledge and not how much one can quote shabdataH from books or apply formulae without application, as the case may be.

Kind rgds,
--Praveen R. Bhat
/* येनेदं सर्वं विजानाति, तं केन विजानीयात्। Through what should one know That owing to which all this is known! [Br.Up. 4.5.15] */

[V Subrahmanian]

For the past few weeks I have been visiting the KSU, Bangalore, where I found many students and teachers conversing in Sanskrit. I felt happy and wished this increase. 

regards

subrahmanian.v 

[Irene Galstian]

Dear Praveen Bhat,

Another very important feature lost is the large number of nontrivial Sanskrit sentences that gurukulas deposited verbatim directly in the students’ memory by means of repeating after the teacher. 

The usefulness of this can’t be stressed enough. A large bank of ready sentences in the memory is essential for acquiring highly inflected languages. I’ve got observations from nearly 25 years of teaching Russian to non-Slavic language speakers to back this claim. 

Irene

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[K S Kannan]

*A large bank of ready sentences in the memory is essential for acquiring highly inflected languages*

Very true

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[Praveen R. Bhat]

True Irene ji, 

Gurukula methodology of anuchchAraNa is well-known, which triggers at the right moment due to acquired medhA. I recall that Bhagavan Bhashyakara says somewhere that teaching is the transfer of vRtti in the teacher's mind to the students' minds.

Kind rgds,
--Praveen R. Bhat
/* येनेदं सर्वं विजानाति, तं केन विजानीयात्। Through what should one know That owing to which all this is known! [Br.Up. 4.5.15] */

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 1:01 PM Irene Galstian <gnos...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Ramakrishnan]

Fraud alert: The author of the article claims that Wendy Doniger speaks in colloquial, classcial and Vedic variants of Sanskrit!

Regards,

Ramakrishnan

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[K S Kannan]

anUccAraNa

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[Praveen R. Bhat]

Thanks, I meant to type anUchchAraNa; I regret the typo. I have stuck to typing ch for च् thanks to some online dictionaries that prefer it.

Kind rgds,
--Praveen R. Bhat
/* येनेदं सर्वं विजानाति, तं केन विजानीयात्। Through what should one know That owing to which all this is known! [Br.Up. 4.5.15] */

[Praveen R. Bhat]

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 2:05 PM Ramakrishnan <srk...@gmail.com> wrote:

Fraud alert: The author of the article claims that Wendy Doniger speaks in colloquial, classcial and Vedic variants of Sanskrit!

Regards,

Ramakrishnan

That too *effortlessly*, Ramakrishnan ji!

[G S S Murthy]

The article of Prof.Paul has inaccuracies and is full of generalities without factual backing. There are a large number of traditional and modern Sanskrit scholars who can comfortably speak Sanskrit. There are youngsters who participate in aashukavitaaspardhas. Like in any other academic stream in India, quality of research may not be at par with that of Western Institutions. Things are changing and it takes time to get results, hopefully.

Thanks and regards,

Murthy

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and also my Sanskrit blog :

http://simplesanskrit.blogspot.com/

http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Wendy Doniger, the American scholar of Sanskrit and Indian Mythology, speaks effortlessly in modern, colloquial and Vedic variants of Sanskrit.

- Did anyone come across anyone speaking in Vedic Sanskrit? 

Does anyone know what are these modern and colloqial variants of Sanskrit? 

The author is not capable of distinguishing between quoting profusely from laukika and Vaidika Sanskrits and speaking effortlessly in modern, colloquial and Vedic variants of Sanskrit.

Seems to be some naive Sanskrit hobbyist. 

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--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. 

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

Let us remember that 'Mass Education' is practiced in India where the strength of a class  is 50 students to a 100 right from 1st Std.  In such a situation unless the primary teacher is well trained to teach a language with all its nuances to a crowd of 50 to 100 how can one expect a student to be well versed in any subject.  It is at the primary level that the problem lies.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[raman ramanuja]

It is true

On Sat 24 Aug, 2019 10:28 pm Venkatesh Murthy, <vmur...@gmail.com> wrote:

Professors of Sanskrit at Indian universities are just whiling away their time while getting hefty salaries. They themselves can't speak or write correct Sanskrit. Their written and colloquial Sanskrit is not just stale, it's wanting on all counts. At five universities in India, Sanskrit is officially taught in Hindi or other vernaculars, not in Sanskrit! Can there be a bigger irony than this?''

Read more at: https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/main-article/who-killed-sanskrit-756464.html

Read more at - https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/main-article/who-killed-sanskrit-756464.html
--

Regards

 

-Venkatesh

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[KALYANI SAHU]

good article

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

However much distasteful the article is,  scholars on this list must admit that students at the entry level i.e. in 6th  or 8th are not initiated properly as none of the vernacular languages support Sanskrit speech ab initio.  

The condition of Sanskrit Shiksha is in a very bad state.  Those who claim to know the Shiksha just parrot it in schools and colleges.  I doubt whether the teaching staff in schools are properly trained to teach Sanskrit with all its nuances.  Moresoever there aren't any good books with exhaustive examples on vernacular grammar.  How can one teach Sanskrit, which by no means is a spoken language in India, without the child/student knowing the grammar of his own tongue.  Why do Sanskrit Scholars not invest their energies in writing good books on vernacular grammar with exhaustive examples like Wren and Martin English Grammar rather than discussing Sanskrit grammar.  

Sanskrit Scholars in the country need to look into themselves rather than blame the upcoming generations for the sorry state of affairs or for that matter people criticizing the sorry state of affairs at home.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Megh Kalyanasundaram]

Much of your note resonated with me, Murthy ji. 

I wonder if there isn't another nuance here too. The author remarks that "professors of Sanskrit at Indian universities are just whiling away their time while getting hefty salaries". I would be happy to be corrected about this but if I am not mistaken, don't professors of Sanskrit at universities in US, Europe, and Australia earn substantially more than professors in India? Yet, why aren't there enough books like that of Korada Subrahmanyam ji's Theories of Language: Oriental and Occidental? Books, like his, that: 

1) are devoid of questionable/unsubstantiated hypotheses (pertaining, for instance, to the spatial and temporal origins of the earliest form of Sanskrit) that took birth and shape (roughty) between 16th and early 20th century and continue to be mainstream

2) critically assess and deconstruct developments in historical linguistics, from an Indic lens (as Dr. Subrahmanyam does in his book), to identify (unattributed) reformulations, blatant appropriations, digestion, etc? 

I would be grateful to anyone who can point me to a book like that of Professor Subrahmanyam's (either before or after his book) which has been authored by someone who is on the payroll of an institution in US or in Europe? 

Best,

Megh

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 3:18 PM G S S Murthy <murt...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Aravinda Rao]

Dear friends,

This has been a rather uncomfortable discussion. I am not from the Sanskrit academic stream, but as an outsider I have been associated with Sanskrit studies for about 25 years. I have been noticing some of the inadequacies of the present day scholars.

About 15-20 years ago, I met several चतुश्शास्त्र पण्डित-s, those who were well versed in Vyakarana, Vedanta, Mimamsa and Nyaya. They knew several texts by heart and were able to teach without the help of a text. In addition they were also well versed in Sahitya. This tribe has drastically dwindled now. The scholars who are products of the University stream are not a match for the older scholars.

More important than this is that the Western Sanskritists have a wider grounding in languages such as Greek, Latin etc., in addition to Sanskrit. Several years ago, George Cardona, the well known grammarian, spoke in the Osmania University, Hyderabad, making observations on Linguistics in Greek and Latin, in addition to Sanskrit. Our scholars were mere audience. The present bête noir, Sheldon Pollock is well versed in the classical languages of the West in addition to Sanskrit. He seems to have held a discussion with the Sringeri Acharya in Sanskrit. I read a book, ‘Empires of the Word – A Language History of the World’ by a British scholar, Nicholas Ostler, who according to his introduction, knew about 20 languages, besides having a Ph.D. in 6 languages such as Greek, Latin and Sanskrit.

For the past many years I have been appealing to the young Sanskrit scholars that they should pursue studies in Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Persian etc., in order to authoritatively talk on what the Western Indologists are writing. Just as several Western scholars have an intimate knowledge of the Sanskrit tradition, the Indian scholars too should aim at knowledge of other traditions from the original sources. My apologies to scholars like Vishwa Adluri, Bagchi and some others of this group who may be some noble exceptions. The Indian vaada tradition shows that all our old acharya-s knew the पूर्वपक्ष thoroughly while having debates on a subject. Glorious examples such as Kumarila bhatta, Shankara, Ramanuja and many others come to our mind. I recall a line from one text book in Linguistics, which says, ‘what does he know of English who only English knows?’ This applies to all languages and traditions.

I believe that the Western scholars will continue to write our narrative which may seem more credible and authoritative. The Indian scholars should be able to speak to them at the same level of scholarship. 

Aravinda Rao K.

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[Sundareswaran N.K]

Just now I went through the article. And I realise that l shouldn't have made my previous post.

(तद्यदतिपन्न आहुरिदं  कार्यमासीदिति - तैत्तिरीयसंहिता)

The article doesn't deserve a discussion.  It doesn't deserve a casual reference or a mention even. 

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[Irene Galstian]

It didn’t magically appear online, someone let this piece be published. The childish claims made in the article do need a calm but firm response. At least this way the public isn’t at the mercy of Mr Paul’s and his publisher’s fantasies. 

Irene

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[K S Kannan]

After the devastation wrought by the colonial forces, the erstwhile ruling party delivered education unto the hands of Marxists whose role was only more ruinous than that of the British in respect of the traditional lore of Sanskrit and various Indian art forms. Allied studies such as archaeology etc. too suffered neglect.

Education ruined, all ruination else followed suit in quick succession:

chinne mUle naiva vRks"am na s'AkhAH!

We have taken a severe, and unfair, beating at the hands of the West for the past two or more centuries - in the economic and intellectual fronts.

However, a new era seems to be dawning upon India, with some at the top at least at last declaring some concern for our heritage.

A new awareness is also building up among (a small percentage, though) of the youth/the educated/the affluent - of the damage wrought so far by the imperialists &/or their agents/sepoys here. Let us hope there will be a few bright/determined minds who will take up the daunting tasks - of rectification/restoration/resuscitation/rejuvenation.

Apparently, a reverse trend is afoot. It may take a century easily for something seriously happening.

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[Irene Galstian]

I agree with Professor Kannan.
This is why it's important not to wait for the society to reform
itself - this can take a while. Instead, individuals and small groups
mentioned by Prof Kannan, who are capable of doing something, should
go ahead and do it, without worrying how many followers they attract,
especially in the beginning. Society has always been full of inertia,
this isn't a measure of anything.

Irene

On 8/25/19, K S Kannan <ks.kann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> After the devastation wrought by the colonial forces, the erstwhile ruling
> party delivered education unto the hands of Marxists whose role was only
> more ruinous than that of the British in respect of the traditional lore of
> Sanskrit and various Indian art forms. Allied studies such as archaeology
> etc. too suffered neglect.
>
> Education ruined, all ruination else followed suit in quick succession:

> *chinne mUle naiva vRks"am na s'AkhAH!*

>> exceptions. The Indian *vaada* tradition shows that all our old acharya-s

>> knew the पूर्वपक्ष thoroughly while having debates on a subject. Glorious
>> examples such as Kumarila bhatta, Shankara, Ramanuja and many others come
>> to our mind. I recall a line from one text book in Linguistics, which
>> says,
>> ‘what does he know of English who only English knows?’ This applies to
>> all
>> languages and traditions.
>>
>> I believe that the Western scholars will continue to write our narrative
>> which may seem more credible and authoritative. The Indian scholars
>> should
>> be able to speak to them at the same level of scholarship.
>>
>> Aravinda Rao K.
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 4:32 PM Megh Kalyanasundaram <
>> kalyanasun...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Much of your note resonated with me, Murthy ji.
>>>
>>> I wonder if there isn't another nuance here too. The author remarks that
>>> "professors of Sanskrit at Indian universities are just whiling away
>>> their
>>> time while getting hefty salaries". I would be happy to be corrected
>>> about this but if I am not mistaken, don't professors of Sanskrit at
>>> universities in US, Europe, and Australia earn substantially more than
>>> professors in India? Yet, why aren't there enough books like that of
>>> Korada Subrahmanyam ji's Theories of Language: Oriental and Occidental

>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Theories-Language-Occidental-Korada-Subrahmanyam/dp/812460455X>
>>> ? Books, like his, that:

>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CACT7j-FswxYSQDDTUzEDH-YhNyxse6wFCFP1P8O-Yhn6AXbR%2BA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>> .

>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> My web site : http://murthygss.tripod.com/index.htm
>>>> and also my Sanskrit blog :
>>>>
>>>> http://simplesanskrit.blogspot.com/
>>>>

>>>> *http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com <http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com/>*

>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CADi6ZRigjKmHeJcgSHR5SdQOsFHSagAUctFjE-%2BWJR%3D33T%3D_Kw%40mail.gmail.com
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CADi6ZRigjKmHeJcgSHR5SdQOsFHSagAUctFjE-%2BWJR%3D33T%3D_Kw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>> .

>>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups
>>> "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an
>>> email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJypMHd65nmSvMHRSAWtMcKGJ9u88chaKFgJ09-unvrTHh7VCg%40mail.gmail.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJypMHd65nmSvMHRSAWtMcKGJ9u88chaKFgJ09-unvrTHh7VCg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .

>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAGwUMpQ2CpoenATQ8zGpBkqRn99B7ZaGqj2_oV%3Diq5MkwQA7CA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .

>>
>
>
> --
> Dr. K.S.Kannan D.Litt.
>
> ​Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.
>
> Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.
>
> Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.
>
> Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.
> Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.
>
> Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.
>
> Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm7peZ-FNQ4%3DLmgXFiDLk0QYaz%3DUp4fP1Nb%3D_%2BGFRck63g%40mail.gmail.com.
>

[K S Kannan]

*Society has always been full of inertia*

Yes, an important realisation, and a worthy note of caution to both types of people:

- to those who are overenthusiastic - not to expect results too fast;

- to those who are pessimistic - not to continue to be complacent.

Each of us must aspire and strive towards a higher goal

- individually as well as collectively.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAFPaCQMw9gyxa2nU%3D%3D1vFE2ZHZ96pP3wpUqJ6mFjKy-ND7noWA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Megh Kalyanasundaram]

So much to agree with what is in your note, Professor Kannan. 

With roughly US$45 trillion, as per one estimate, having been extracted from India by British, subsequent migration and transfer (of other kinds, including but not limited knowledge assets) from Britain to US, with universities like Yale in US having being initially built also on sweat and extractions from India-Madras (An astounding tale of slavery and deceit: Yale University's Madras connection), it should hardly surprise anyone that institutions in UK have done well institutionally: would it not have been a shame to have not done well with the resources extracted! Can anyone empirically deny the correlation between the availability of resources and the quantity of high-quality scholarship? 

India is slowly recovering and while none of the above is meant as an excuse for avoidable (if any) issues/inefficiencies that might exist within the current resource allocation matrix or in the way the incentives might be aligned, it becomes more important, in my humble opinion, to acknowledge, nay, celebrate the efforts of those scholars who operate from within much more resource-constrained environs and yet produce original, world-class scholarship. 

Best,

Megh

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm7peZ-FNQ4%3DLmgXFiDLk0QYaz%3DUp4fP1Nb%3D_%2BGFRck63g%40mail.gmail.com.

[Irene Galstian]

Exactly, Sir. You put it better than I ever could.

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAFPaCQMw9gyxa2nU%3D%3D1vFE2ZHZ96pP3wpUqJ6mFjKy-ND7noWA%40mail.gmail.com

>> .
>>
>
>
> --
> Dr. K.S.Kannan D.Litt.
>
> ​Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.
>
> Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.
>
> Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.
>
> Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.
> Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.
>
> Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.
>
> Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm5-x1Y-426AuwJ1vPA0KWhj%2BWDqfDnAf20FbNJy7EQLog%40mail.gmail.com.
>

[K S Kannan]

Well said, Megh.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAFPaCQOsitqTk52bD1adXKDdgSg4P%3DqC43CxBjRmSkYqTfTKEw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Irene Galstian]

"Can anyone empirically deny the correlation between the availability
of resources and the quantity of high-quality scholarship? "

Yes, Megh, one can. Example: Saudi Arabia.

Good scholarship requires a certain elevation of the mind. Resources
alone aren't sufficient.

Irene

On 8/25/19, Megh Kalyanasundaram <kalyanasun...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So much to agree with what is in your note, Professor Kannan.
>
> With roughly US$45 trillion, as per one estimate

> <https://www.livemint.com/Companies/HNZA71LNVNNVXQ1eaIKu6M/British-Raj-siphoned-out-45-trillion-from-India-Utsa-Patna.html>,

> having been extracted from India by British, subsequent migration and
> transfer (of other kinds, including but not limited knowledge assets) from
> Britain to US, with universities like Yale in US having being initially
> built also on sweat and extractions from India-Madras (An astounding tale
> of slavery and deceit: Yale University's Madras connection

> <https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/astounding-tale-slavery-and-deceit-yale-universitys-madras-connection-57228>),

> it should hardly surprise anyone that institutions in UK have done well
> institutionally: would it not have been a shame to have not done well with
> the resources extracted! Can anyone empirically deny the correlation
> between the availability of resources and the quantity of high-quality
> scholarship?
>
> India is slowly recovering and while none of the above is meant as an
> excuse for avoidable (if any) issues/inefficiencies that might exist within
> the current resource allocation matrix or in the way the incentives might
> be aligned, it becomes more important, in my humble opinion, to
> acknowledge, nay, celebrate the efforts of those scholars who operate from
> within much more resource-constrained environs and yet produce original,
> world-class scholarship.
>
> Best,
> Megh
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 5:41 PM K S Kannan <ks.kann...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> After the devastation wrought by the colonial forces, the erstwhile
>> ruling
>> party delivered education unto the hands of Marxists whose role was only
>> more ruinous than that of the British in respect of the traditional lore
>> of
>> Sanskrit and various Indian art forms. Allied studies such as archaeology
>> etc. too suffered neglect.
>>
>> Education ruined, all ruination else followed suit in quick succession:

>> *chinne mUle naiva vRks"am na s'AkhAH!*

>>> exceptions. The Indian *vaada* tradition shows that all our old

>>> acharya-s knew the पूर्वपक्ष thoroughly while having debates on a
>>> subject. Glorious examples such as Kumarila bhatta, Shankara, Ramanuja
>>> and
>>> many others come to our mind. I recall a line from one text book in
>>> Linguistics, which says, ‘what does he know of English who only English
>>> knows?’ This applies to all languages and traditions.
>>>
>>> I believe that the Western scholars will continue to write our narrative
>>> which may seem more credible and authoritative. The Indian scholars
>>> should
>>> be able to speak to them at the same level of scholarship.
>>>
>>> Aravinda Rao K.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 4:32 PM Megh Kalyanasundaram <
>>> kalyanasun...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Much of your note resonated with me, Murthy ji.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if there isn't another nuance here too. The author remarks
>>>> that "professors of Sanskrit at Indian universities are just whiling
>>>> away
>>>> their time while getting hefty salaries". I would be happy to be
>>>> corrected about this but if I am not mistaken, don't professors of
>>>> Sanskrit
>>>> at universities in US, Europe, and Australia earn substantially more
>>>> than
>>>> professors in India? Yet, why aren't there enough books like that of
>>>> Korada Subrahmanyam ji's Theories of Language: Oriental and Occidental

>>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Theories-Language-Occidental-Korada-Subrahmanyam/dp/812460455X>
>>>> ? Books, like his, that:

>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CACT7j-FswxYSQDDTUzEDH-YhNyxse6wFCFP1P8O-Yhn6AXbR%2BA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>> .

>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> My web site : http://murthygss.tripod.com/index.htm
>>>>> and also my Sanskrit blog :
>>>>>
>>>>> http://simplesanskrit.blogspot.com/
>>>>>

>>>>> *http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com <http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com/>*
>>>>>

>>>>> --
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>> Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>>> an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CADi6ZRigjKmHeJcgSHR5SdQOsFHSagAUctFjE-%2BWJR%3D33T%3D_Kw%40mail.gmail.com
>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CADi6ZRigjKmHeJcgSHR5SdQOsFHSagAUctFjE-%2BWJR%3D33T%3D_Kw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>> .

>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJypMHd65nmSvMHRSAWtMcKGJ9u88chaKFgJ09-unvrTHh7VCg%40mail.gmail.com
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJypMHd65nmSvMHRSAWtMcKGJ9u88chaKFgJ09-unvrTHh7VCg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>> .

>>>>
>>> --
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>>> Groups
>>> "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
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>>> email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
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>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAGwUMpQ2CpoenATQ8zGpBkqRn99B7ZaGqj2_oV%3Diq5MkwQA7CA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .

>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr. K.S.Kannan D.Litt.
>>
>> Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.
>>
>> Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.
>>
>> Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.
>>
>> Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.
>> Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.
>>
>> Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.
>>
>> Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm7peZ-FNQ4%3DLmgXFiDLk0QYaz%3DUp4fP1Nb%3D_%2BGFRck63g%40mail.gmail.com

>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm7peZ-FNQ4%3DLmgXFiDLk0QYaz%3DUp4fP1Nb%3D_%2BGFRck63g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .

>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>

[K S Kannan]

Can you please elucidate what happened in Saudi Arabia?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAFPaCQM_WFYTHgDV_Nz3etaoZVH9gp1SxcAR8OeoWTJ84_D-%2BQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Megh Kalyanasundaram]

I subscribe to the hypothesis that having a sustained (over fairly long periods of time, say at least decades) stream of high-quality scholarship, in the post-industrial revolution world at least, is ALSO (and not ONLY) a function of resource allocation and its efficient deployment. I would be intrigued if my original statement allowed an interpretation that I had implied merely resources alone sufficient in generating an appreciable quantity of high-quality scholarship. I do not at all disagree on the need for "a certain elevation of the mind" but optimal resource allocation and "a certain elevation of the mind" might be a better bet than only "a certain elevation of the mind". 

Megh

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 6:09 PM Irene Galstian <gnos...@gmail.com> wrote:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAFPaCQM_WFYTHgDV_Nz3etaoZVH9gp1SxcAR8OeoWTJ84_D-%2BQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Irene Galstian]

Immense resources are available in Saudi Arabia, but the country has
to buy in most of the talent to do creative/scientific work. It seems
incapable of producing its own cadres in research-related endeavours.

Another example was communist Russia. Now it's true that the
government was keen on promoting science and engineering, but the
situation on the ground was pretty dire. Administrators and
secretarial staff were very lax and ignored their work, you couldn't
get the needed books at the university library. Once by some magic
someone got the book, you had to quickly run and make Xerox copies for
the entire class, then people made copies of copies of copies, to the
point when the type was almost illegible. The grand edifice of Soviet
science was built by and carried on the shoulders of a tiny minority,
who saw the direness around them but chose to press on regardless.
These were the university professors who stayed on until 10pm teaching
students in their seminars, who answered every student question
clearly and in detail, like loving parents.
And yet, the communist party and its sidekicks were in charge, and in
their meetings renounced these professors as potential sellouts to
capitalism, fabricated false allegations against them, which cost some
their lives. That's because these scientists, philologists, poets,
etc. were intelligent and capable of creating wonderful things, and
the mediocrities who swarmed around the communist party's protection
hated and feared them in equal measure.
I'm sure you see at least some parallels with the present Indian
situation in this short trip down the memory lane.

Irene

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAFPaCQM_WFYTHgDV_Nz3etaoZVH9gp1SxcAR8OeoWTJ84_D-%2BQ%40mail.gmail.com

>> .
>>
>
>
> --
> Dr. K.S.Kannan D.Litt.
>
> ​Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.
>
> Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.
>
> Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.
>
> Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.
> Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.
>
> Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.
>
> Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm7P24LKw%3DZM%3Dt43XvLOPXrGbEMNDpu6H6QGjr%2BO381Jcw%40mail.gmail.com.
>

[Irene Galstian]

So we're saying pretty much the same thing, Megh.

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAFPaCQM_WFYTHgDV_Nz3etaoZVH9gp1SxcAR8OeoWTJ84_D-%2BQ%40mail.gmail.com

>> .
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

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>

[Nityanand Misra]

On Sunday, 25 August 2019 15:49:22 UTC+5:30, Nagaraj Paturi wrote:

Wendy Doniger, the American scholar of Sanskrit and Indian Mythology, speaks effortlessly in modern, colloquial and Vedic variants of Sanskrit.

- Did anyone come across anyone speaking in Vedic Sanskrit? 

Does anyone know what are these modern and colloqial variants of Sanskrit? 

The author is not capable of distinguishing between quoting profusely from laukika and Vaidika Sanskrits and speaking effortlessly in modern, colloquial and Vedic variants of Sanskrit.

Seems to be some naive Sanskrit hobbyist. 

The author says

“Once you understand Panini's ‘Ashtadhyayi’, ‘Siddhantkaumudi’ …”

Impressive name dropping, but then the author just exposed himself by saying

“The word Sanskrit originated from ‘Sans’ and ‘Krit’. ‘Sans’ means ‘something done in totality’, ‘Krit’ means ‘an accomplished piece or task’. Sanskrit therefore, is an accomplished language in its totality.” 

Any scholar of ‘Ashtadhyayi’ worth his sodium chloride will know that there is no such thing as ‘sans’ in ‘Sanskrit’.  ‘Sanskrit’ (‘Samskrita’) comes from ‘sam’ = “well” and ‘krita’  = “done, accomplished” when the sense is of “ornamentation, decoration” as implied by the rule “samparyupebhyaḥ karotau bhūṣaṇe” (6.1.137). So ‘Sanskrit’ (‘Samskrita’) actually means much more than “well-done”, it means “decorated, adorned”. It is not coincidence that Bhartrihari says “vāṇyekā samalaṃkaroti puruṣaṃ yā saṃskṛtā dhāryate”.

The whole point of the article is that Sanskrit is dead in India but safe in the hands of Westerners, pushing the agenda of Sheldon Pollock et al. One would like to know what has the author himself written in Sanskrit before pronouncing that Sanskrit is dead.

As for effortless speaking in Sanskrit, does the author even know what effortless speaking in Sanskrit is. One can cite many examples, but here is one of my favourites. This is Tridandi Svami Vasudevacharya ‘Vidyabhaskara’ Ji of Ayodhya speaking spontaneously and effortlessly in Sanskrit. Can the author even understand it? And does there exist any recording of Doniger speaking effortlessly in Sanskrit?

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoBmNTMN3nA

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpPgHgLoptE

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Irene,

     Due to stiff opposition to science from Trump and the Republicans in the US, many institutions like the National Institute of Science are being stifled and money being diverted to phony projects.  The approach being peddled is "Yes to technology," but "No to science."  Mediocrity of the ruling class is not limited to Russia and India, we are experiencing the same phenomenon here in the USA.  

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAFPaCQO%2BTYPSRHv0%3DJeWDo2ENb0HevnhumReLBu2tmbUMYZXMQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Deva Pattanayak]

UGC may require that  students pass a test in Sanskrit before obtaining   Ph.D. in Philosophy, Literature, history,sociology,politicsl science, economics and other humanity subjects that will benefit from the vast knowledge stored in ancient Sanskrit tests, like Vedas etc. 

At the same time Sanskrit studies at high school level be offered as an optional subject to all with a proviso that an A grade in Sanskrit will elevate a B grade in another subject to an A grade.

In my days marks above 30 was added to the aggregate.

Let efforts be made to simplify Sanskrit. To start with let go of Sandhi, the process of combining words according to strict rules. It adds to style and its elitism but adds little to substance while making it difficult to understand.

Yes to the need for Sanskrit scholars and others to be knowledgeable in other old languages  like Latin,Greek, Arabic etc,

Important to realize that there are many full fledged languages in India with mass following. There is no state in Bharat where people’s mother tongue is Sanskrit.

Languages like Tamil, Telugu, Hindi, Odia and others like Bengali have rich literature and  social influence over millions of people through music,drama,dance and festivities.

The deva bhasha Sanskrit  will take decades from now to become a manab  bhasha in Bharat.

With best wishes

Deva

      

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAFPaCQM_WFYTHgDV_Nz3etaoZVH9gp1SxcAR8OeoWTJ84_D-%2BQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Praveen R. Bhat]

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 6:39 PM Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

As for effortless speaking in Sanskrit, does the author even know what effortless speaking in Sanskrit is. One can cite many examples, but here is one of my favourites. This is Tridandi Svami Vasudevacharya ‘Vidyabhaskara’ Ji of Ayodhya speaking spontaneously and effortlessly in Sanskrit. Can the author even understand it? And does there exist any recording of Doniger speaking effortlessly in Sanskrit?

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoBmNTMN3nA

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpPgHgLoptE

अत्र तु संस्कृतभाषायाः अमृतधारा वहति भोः। धन्यवादाः।

प्रवीणभट्टः।

[Subodh Bhat]

Any language can be said to be dead only if nobody converse in the language, nobody studies the language, no literary works produced in the language, no books are available in the language and no research and academic works are carried in the language. Sanskrit fails in all these tests and hence is not dead. In fact going by the keen interest it generates not only in India but world wide, one could argue its very much live and ticking! So when its not dead, the question 'Who killed Sanskrit?' simply does not arise. So I have not bothered to read the article, which may be somebody's fantasy!  

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAB3-dzfz%2BF1aHyMRi_kMrD%3DfuRCia2s%3DYbzmHg7MzSwaaM1w5Q%40mail.gmail.com.

--

K, Subodh Bhat

Vision Automation

#1281, 33rd Cross,

Kumaraswamy Layout,

Bangalore 560078, India

 

TeleFax:+91-80-26609765

Mob: +91-9845756611

 

[K S Kannan]

Not many know perhaps that the Indian Institute of Science in Bangalore

has been making special efforts to draw students towards research in pure science!

Take care of the roots, and the fruits take care of themselves!

सर्वे  technology-भक्ताः

      सर्वे quick-bucks-परायणाः।

अनिषिच्य जलैर्मूलं

      का नामाशा फलं प्रति? ॥

--

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[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

Prof. Deshpande 

Yes, the situation is somewhat alarming. I will share my experience, I think this has been happening for sometime now. It started many decades back at least in my area, and in general science, not all of it can be ascribed to to the Trump/Republicans. It may have been exacerbated in recent times, but this has been happening a while. In my area, communication theory, the NSF used to support many research programs, many quite theoretical. In the early 90s they sent out a notice that they wanted it to be tied to “practical” stuff. This forced professors to stop thinking big ideas to what kind of dog and pony show they could come up with. I saw such discussions happening right before me many times. If this had been the original case, many of the great ideas in my field may have never come to fruition. The professors themselves complained about this privately, but there was nothing they could do. It’s a general trend toward “show me the utility right now” kind of thinking. Of course the sciences and humanities are hurt much more by this kind of thinking. 

Ramakrishnan

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 9:14 AM Madhav Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu> wrote:

Dear Irene,

     Due to stiff opposition to science from Trump and the Republicans in the US, many institutions like the National Institute of Science are being stifled sword and money being diverted to phony projects.  The approach being peddled is "Yes to technology," but "No to science."  Mediocrity of the ruling class is not limited to Russia and India, we are experiencing the same phenomenon here in the USA.  

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAB3-dzfz%2BF1aHyMRi_kMrD%3DfuRCia2s%3DYbzmHg7MzSwaaM1w5Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[Lakshminarasimhan Krishnamurthi]

Namaste.

To summarize the issues in the article and subsequent discussions

1. Quality of Samskrit Education & research in Universities is very low. Laziness of the professors and low IQ of students are both cited as reason.  Reasons are Target language is not used in the class & writing skills are diminishing. 

2. The standard of Sanskrit studies outside India, (claims the author) is better.

Responses;

3. There are many authorities in Shastras (old and few young ones). 

4. Lack of resources, support & lack policy backing are key reasons for decline.

5. Lack of study of other languages or other subjects  by Teachers at Samskrit Universities has weakened Samskrit. (Dr Rao)

6. There are factual errors but few valid points to ponder on too.

 

Through this discussion, it will be good to throw light on various initiatives happening across the country.  I am sharing the one we are part of.

Samskrit Promotion Foundation, is focusing on school education to improve the supply "school-upwards".  We provide learning teaching tools & quality training for Samskrit teachers. Enabling,equipping the teacher, is key in attracting good students to Samskrit. We realize that this has to continue for next few decades. 

It will be good if scholars share the initiatives taken either by them, institutions or by others known to them, so that it benefits all. 

Namaskars.

Lakshminarasimhan

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAH8aEvv%3DP%3DOPfF-%2B39%2BgPNSoNL7i0JdNnqSijnY-DB%2BTg84i4Q%40mail.gmail.com.

--

लक्ष्मीनरसिंह:
(Lakshminarasimhan)
8800666122

[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste

 

1.   I agree with the observation of Lakshminarasimhan.Krishnamurthi

 

2.  I am highly  appreciative  of  the good work  being carried out by Samskruth Promotion Foundation to improve the 'school -upwards'.

 

3.  On <it will be good to throw light on various initiatives happening across the country >,

            3a) I wish to bring to the notice of those interested in 'School-Samskruth Education', that we have an enterprise  providing a  package solution focused on 'PROMOTION OF  DIGITAL SAMSKRUTH LITERACY' to

   (i) augment and supplement < SAMSKRUTH SCHOOL EDUCATION WITH DEPARTMENT TEXTS and LESSONS

 

   and

 

  (ii) Empower  SAMSKRUTH SHIKSHAKS of  SPOKEN SAMSKRUTH  at Sambhashan Shibirs'>.    

 

  For more details,  Please explore : https://ka-naada.com/

 

   3b)The work done  by Achyut Karve is also useful in promoting the connection of 'ABCD/ QWERTY ' generation to Brahmi-base of Indian languages, Most important with  Samskruth by highlighting the importance of  early and formal school teaching of voicing using multiple patterns of vocal recitation built around Maheswara sutras.

 

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAB_YyoJEvuEz1ZiH8xiHR1Kb1of%2BrsM98pv%3DQbTYkmAjAwuLuw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste

 

On <Venkatesh Murthy:  At five universities in India, Sanskrit is officially taught in Hindi or other vernaculars, not in Sanskrit! Can there be a bigger irony than this?''>

 

There is  a far greater  irony ! and ' scholarly insomnia on Paninian Pedagogy of Samskrutham'  and ' Prakruth ( mother of Hindi and Desi)  Languages of India. This is a clear fall out of lack of clarity on ' Samskruth-Prakruth Relations' from a Native Indian Perspective  and embracing the colonial axioms anchored to the 'Tower of Babel' Language streams explaining IE linguistics.

 

I am pointing to the post 1990 Indian language teaching models and grant supported projects, movements in 'Non-Sanskrit segment'  initiated at  some ( reputed - ? ) indological research institutes. The axiom of research seems to be drawn from colonial linguistic model for indology study  runs:

           ' Prakruth is to be taught in Prakruth only.

           ' Prakrtuh studies need to be sanitized from the classical language grammars which link various Prakruth's from 'Bhashaa' of Paninian Samskruth'. 

 

The goal:  The new linguistic Prakruth derivations need to be used to understand- interpret- translate ancient works of Hinduism in Non-Sanskrit languages to create  social connection of religion scriptures through ' regional language translations' to replicate the 'model of Old Testament to Bible to New Bible translations' to spread the message of God/s . The model of 'Non-Sanskrit covers Tamil/ Kannada / Dravidam, ardhamagadhi, avadhi, goorjari, Maharashtrian et al.)

  

Whether this initiative will gain momentum and impact society, or not,  the trends are already going on. Only TIME can answer what comes out of such initiatives and views and 2050 indian language pedagogy and teaching policies ! .

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of rniyengar
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:32 AM
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Re: Who killed Sanskrit? Article

 

Can some member from Pune verify whether his claim to have taught at BORI 

 

["...While teaching Persian and Sanskrit at the world-renowned Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Pune,..."]

 

is true or just another guffaw like Dandi's Urubhangam!     Kuempu's love for Sanskrit is as far as I know a false claim.

 

RNI

Read more at: https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/main-article/who-killed-sanskrit-756464.html

On Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 6:40:56 AM UTC+5:30, rniyengar wrote:

The article has some truth in it, but reads to be more of self promotion. 

Any way how to get hold of Dandi's 'Urubhangam' ? I like to read it. Can someone help me.

 

RNI

Read more at: https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/main-article/who-killed-sanskrit-756464.html

On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 10:28:52 PM UTC+5:30, Venkatesh Murthy wrote:

Professors of Sanskrit at Indian universities are just whiling away their time while getting hefty salaries. They themselves can't speak or write correct Sanskrit. Their written and colloquial Sanskrit is not just stale, it's wanting on all counts. At five universities in India, Sanskrit is officially taught in Hindi or other vernaculars, not in Sanskrit! Can there be a bigger irony than this?''

Read more at: https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/main-article/who-killed-sanskrit-756464.html

Read more at - https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/main-article/who-killed-sanskrit-756464.html
--

Regards

 

-Venkatesh

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[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste  Praveen Bhat ji

 

On *exam point of view*!

 

One needs to answer the question : What pedagogy, level of Samskruth teaching needs to be laid out as a plan from 'Early schooling to Post Doctoral  research'.

                                            Who has got clarity on this point ? Beyond opinions? (The UTILITY APPLICATION : VINIYOGA OF SAMSKRUTHAM, as Dr. Yadu says needs to be clear).

This opens up the line of investigation: What were the guiding policies to design the SAMSKRUTH TEXT BOOKS OF HIGHSCHOOLS in 19th and 20th century in Pre-Independence period ? How this has been meddled in post Independence period . In other words, who is guiding the 'Samskruth Education Policy' at School levels?

 

The relevant records to see are the school text books of different states at India, the introduction in to Samskruth grammar texts by then colonial scholars and  Samskruth pundits who fitted the 'traditional content in to the given design'.  I can say with certainty that Samskruth Education in Karnataka in 19th century was very clear on the objective of Samskruth Education at Schools:

 

The goals  were very clearly laid out:

 

            (i)  Proper articulation of Brahmi Samskruth Varnamaalaa and words (Shuddha Uccharana)

            (ii)  Proper scripting  of Samskruth and regional languages in appropriate scripts (Shuddha Lekhana /  Ukta-lekhana  through  Baarakhadi - Gunita and Samyukta aksharas )             (iii) Proper Cultural perspective and overarching  connection of  texts of Tradition for continuance of heritage values and ethics in the eco system of 'Bharateeyataa'.

                 (Note: Subhahsita's, Panchatantra, Raghuvamsha, Niti -padyas were prioritized over  history, religion, caste and creed, veda-learning and the like). (Shuddha

                 sampradaya, itihasa)

            (iv) CULTURE FAMILIARIZATION was more important than ' LINGUISITC SCHOLARSHIP '. (Shuddha Samskruti - (Shuddha Neeti)

            (v)  Shaping the Cultural perspectives of Student was more important than *exam point of view* teaching. (Shuddha Vyaktitiva).

 

Net outcome: Students of this  generation remembered 'Samskruth Teacher' ( Guru)  throughout their life, even though they forgot most of the samskruth (Bhashaa) in the text beyond - 'ramah ramau ramaah'.  The word 'Rama'  was not a taboo in school or society !

 

Modern Samskruth teaching at Schools has upset this inheritance and value proposition of 'Samskruth teaching relevance in early and high schooling'.

The substitution of non-traditional Montessori model for Samskruth school teaching has turned ripples to Tsunami debate.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Praveen R. Bhat
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 12:47 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Who killed Sanskrit? Article

 

Namaste,

 

Without actually commenting on the article and its content, I'd like to list an observation of mine. While teaching Laghusiddhantakaumudi to some students, I found out that even the Kovida level study that they undergone, which is supposed to be a 4th level, has been from *exam point of view*! This is the basic flaw that I find in all kind of studies, be it Sanskrit, engineering when I studied it or math as Prof. Yoganandaji mentioned in this thread. The commitment to study is lacking and so is the teaching tuned to exams, solving old papers and everything is centred around scoring; thats about it! How much one really learns as to the core of any subject seems to be nobody's business. 

 

IMO, we have, somewhere around the journey to modern success, lost the gurukula mode, wherein exams are meant only to test the knowledge and not how much one can quote shabdataH from books or apply formulae without application, as the case may be.

 

Kind rgds,
--Praveen R. Bhat

/* येनेदं सर्वं विजानाति, तं केन विजानीयात्। Through what should one know That owing to which all this is known! [Br.Up. 4.5.15] */

 

 

.

[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste   Deva Pattanayak 

 

1.   You have a  good point in making a call for < UGC may require that  students pass a test in Sanskrit before obtaining   Ph.D. in Philosophy, Literature, history, sociology, politics ! science, economics and other humanity subjects that will benefit from the vast knowledge stored in ancient Sanskrit tests, like Vedas etc.  >

 

Such provisions do exist already ; but the implementation is slack !

 

2. On the call for * Sanskrit studies at high school level be offered as an optional subject   *  the provisions already exists. The implementation is slack.   The teachers and text book providers have found a via-media working solution!   The design of contents in the  text are made 60% for A learners,   20% for B-level learners and 15% for A-level learners and 5% for A+ level learners.   The teachers meet the *Exam level needs for marks* in (60+20+15) segments.  The general stand hold good that intelligent students who are good in maths are also good in sanskrit/  vice-versa. Sanskrit is like maths for scoring. This is not a test of language skill or proficiency .

 

3.  On the expectations <   Let efforts be made to simplify Sanskrit. To start with let go of Sandhi, the process of combining words according to strict rules. It adds to style and its elitism but adds little to substance while making it difficult to understand.   Yes to the need for Sanskrit scholars and others to be knowledgeable in other old languages  like Latin,Greek, Arabic etc, Important to realize that there are many full fledged languages in India with mass following. There is no state in Bharat where people’s mother tongue is Sanskrit.   Languages like Tamil, Telugu, Hindi, Odia and others like Bengali have rich literature and  social influence over millions of people through music, drama, dance and festivities.  The deva bhasha Sanskrit  will take decades from now to become a manab  bhasha in Bharat. >

 

   There are many connected issues that need to be contemplated here.  This kind of experiment has been carried in reputed universities  beyond India in the colonial frame of Sanskrit studies for over three centuries. This model has violated and vitiated the paninian pedagogy of Samskruth studies, the foundation to understand ' bharateeyataa in rest of Indian languages like Tamil, Telugu, Hindi, Odia , Bengali, Kashmiri etc; and art-forms-humanities and yoga in music, drama, dance and festivities.

 

   The challenge of current period is finding a working  fitment for 21st century Samskruth studies at school level, between the pedagogy options of  'anglicized Sanskrit colonial model' and 'Desi -Prakruth model of language through language'. The modus operandi will be defined by clarity of goals and tools used for education. And all this depends upon the ' people-investment in Samskruth Education transitions through this turbulence'.  

 

Are there deep pockets which are ready to stake their good dollar in this ? in a 'self-less way' ??  CSR, NGO , Non-Profit are all nice tags for money movement with deep strings controlling fingers of investors.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Deva Pattanayak

Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 6:54 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Who killed Sanskrit? Article

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAGPnbQUiKWvy-TBY1Hjk6-TSKLNjsTuL_rfYCP0R%2BuL%2BZwwfXA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Irene Galstian]

Even if there are deep pockets, their owners regard academics as
timewasters - with good reason. Just look at most of the discussions
on most academic forums, and you won't blame them. As Steve Jobs said
after meeting with Barak Obama, 'The President kept telling me all the
reasons why things can't be done'. This kind of thinking is enough to
infuriate any straight-thinking businessperson, so it's a small wonder
they aren't rushing to help.

Irene

>>>>>>> <mailto:bvparishat%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com> .

>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CACT7j-FswxYSQDDTUzEDH-YhNyxse6wFCFP1P8O-Yhn6AXbR%2BA%40mail.gmail.com
>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CACT7j-FswxYSQDDTUzEDH-YhNyxse6wFCFP1P8O-Yhn6AXbR%2BA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email

>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CACT7j-FswxYSQDDTUzEDH-YhNyxse6wFCFP1P8O-Yhn6AXbR%2BA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>

>>>>>>> &utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> My web site : http://murthygss.tripod.com/index.htm
>>>>>> and also my Sanskrit blog :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://simplesanskrit.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com <http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com/>*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
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>>>>>> <mailto:bvparishat%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com> .

>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CADi6ZRigjKmHeJcgSHR5SdQOsFHSagAUctFjE-%2BWJR%3D33T%3D_Kw%40mail.gmail.com
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>>>> &utm_source=footer>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dr. K.S.Kannan D.Litt.
>>>
>>> Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.
>>>
>>> Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.
>>>
>>> Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.
>>>
>>> Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.
>>> Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.
>>>
>>> Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.
>>>
>>> Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.
>>>
>>> --
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[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste  Irene

                 (Note:   please read Samskrutham for a second reading in the place of juice  and traditional scholar for gardener)

1.    The 'Juice extractor, seller and drinker as beneficiaries' have a collective  responsibility and accountability to pay their toll -tax to the gardener who made the 'fruit available for the enterprise'.

      An economy, A nation, a policy which fails to understand this will perish soon leaving dangerous consequences for the future.

2.     It is for the Samskruth lovers to show how Samskruth stands relevant now, for productivity, prosperity beyond 'religion- income in a secular or theologically oriented nation' . It is for Samskruth lovers to show that 'Samskruth is not a dead (classical language ) body for academic postmortem and learn about history ( Pathogenic nature of disease). 

       The academics who discuss the history of language are academically great!  But their role and invitation should be at a time and place  like the 'Medical professional who write a postmortem report' (after the accident, death and prior to burial/ cremation). That education is not the need of the hour for Samskruth in School education.

       The need is 'life-saving good medical practice' for 'handling given living person and aim to restore the Health- fitness' ! This model of doctors aim is ' send patient back to home healthy' and not to RIP , ten feet -hundred miles out of town.

3.  Here is a specific quote: (https://www.inc.com/jeff-haden/9-best-steve-jobs-quotes-about-business-success-living-a-fulfilling-life.html )

 

  "You can't connect the dots looking forward; you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something--your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. This approach has never let me down, and it has made all the difference in my life."

One of the biggest reasons people don't start doing, well, anything is that they think the first step must be a component in a comprehensive grand plan--one where every step is charted and every milestone identified....   And because they don't have that plan, they don't start. They need to see an end before they see a beginning.

Plans are never perfect. Only in hindsight does it appear that way. What really happens is that people do things, try things, succeed at things, fail at things, learn from those failures, learn from those successes...and along the way they seize--and create--opportunities to advance themselves.

If you're interested in something, try it. Don't worry about where it might someday lead.

The dots will someday connect. And in the meantime, your life will be a lot more interesting.  

Regards

BVK Sastry

[Irene Galstian]

Namaste Dr Sastry,

I couldn't agree more. Overthinking results in paralysis by analysis,
and ideas die before they have a chance to be fully born. My teacher
used to say that under the name of good advice people often transmit
to the other person their own neuroses.
The example of practically-minded and inspired people like Dr Dhaval
Patel, S. L. Abhyankar and Acyut Karve has shown that a lot of good
can be done with modest resources.
By the way, I'd like to bring to the list's attention Acyut Karve's
fascinating tabla collection on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw09bZHXv7ofJ8anaQcqwtg

Irene

On 8/26/19, Dr BVK Sastry <sastr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Namaste Irene

>
> (Note: please read Samskrutham for a second reading in
> the place of juice and traditional scholar for gardener)
>
>
> 1. The 'Juice extractor, seller and drinker as beneficiaries' have a
> collective responsibility and accountability to pay their toll -tax to the
> gardener who made the 'fruit available for the enterprise'.
>
> An economy, A nation, a policy which fails to understand this will
> perish soon leaving dangerous consequences for the future.
>
> 2. It is for the Samskruth lovers to show how Samskruth stands relevant
> now, for productivity, prosperity beyond 'religion- income in a secular or
> theologically oriented nation' . It is for Samskruth lovers to show that
> 'Samskruth is not a dead (classical language ) body for academic postmortem
> and learn about history ( Pathogenic nature of disease).
>
> The academics who discuss the history of language are academically
> great! But their role and invitation should be at a time and place like
> the 'Medical professional who write a postmortem report' (after the
> accident, death and prior to burial/ cremation). That education is not the
> need of the hour for Samskruth in School education.
>
> The need is 'life-saving good medical practice' for 'handling given
> living person and aim to restore the Health- fitness' ! This model of
> doctors aim is ' send patient back to home healthy' and not to RIP , ten
> feet -hundred miles out of town.
>
> 3. Here is a specific quote:
> (https://www.inc.com/jeff-haden/9-best-steve-jobs-quotes-about-business-success-living-a-fulfilling-life.html

> <https://www.inc.com/jeff-haden/9-best-steve-jobs-quotes-about-business-success-living-a-fulfilling-life.html%20>

> --
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> email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/5d638b45.1c69fb81.b79c5.9e5f%40mx.google.com.
>

[K S Kannan]

**What were the guiding policies to design the SAMSKRUTH TEXT BOOKS OF HIGHSCHOOLS

      in 19th and 20th century in Pre-Independence period ? ** - BVVKS

An example :

High school Sanskrit texts those days had a lesson, I was told by my teacher,

on George the Fifth, entitled: ॥ जारजः पञ्चमः ॥

The students too could not help having a hearty laughter.

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[Irene Galstian]

I wish I could find that textbook. It probably had other such jewels in it. 

Irene

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[Dr. Raghavender Upadhyayula]

Respected Prof. Kannan,

I would like to say a few words noting that you mentioned IISc and being an alumnus I feel responsible as well. 

In our days, going to IISc to do research was essentially based on individual's aptititude. But, I was not aware of any special efforts on part of the institute except for floating their annual exam date in newspapers. 

Sorry to hear that if institutions are going around advertising and trying to provide incentives to draw students to do pure science then to me it is alarming. Does it mean that the priorties of younger generation is towards more lucrative professions ? Most likely. 

Probably, the patience to see the fruit ripen is also not present (obviously, there will be a few exceptions). 

A bee flies to draw nectar from flower (a source of food, maybe ecstasy), but the flowers being taken to bee is something which is quite a jolt. 

Probably, evaluation of aptitude of prospective students is taking a backseat. 

Please forgive if I have uttered something unfair as I have become emotional to see this.  

Best,

Raghu

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

I used to hear that IISER s are the brain children of or are the results of the ideas of Prof. Abdul Kalam who used to show concern for this situation. 

http://www.iiserpune.ac.in/ 

The Government of India, through the Ministry of Human Resource Development (MHRD), has established seven Indian Institutes of Science Education and Research (IISER). These institutes are located in Bhopal, Berhampur, Mohali, Pune, Kolkata, Thiruvanantapuram and Tirupati.

The IISERs represent a unique initiative in India where teaching and education are totally integrated with state-of-the-art research nurturing both curiosity and creativity in an intellectually vibrant atmosphere of research. Each IISER is an autonomous institution awarding its own Masters and Doctoral degrees. See the IISER System website for more details on all IISERs.

http://www.iisersystem.ac.in/  

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--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. 

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Praveen R. Bhat]

Namaste Dr. Sastry ji,

Thanks for your response.

On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 11:43 AM Dr BVK Sastry <sastr...@gmail.com> wrote:

On *exam point of view*!

 

One needs to answer the question : What pedagogy, level of Samskruth teaching needs to be laid out as a plan from 'Early schooling to Post Doctoral  research'.

                                            Who has got clarity on this point ? Beyond opinions? (The UTILITY APPLICATION : VINIYOGA OF SAMSKRUTHAM, as Dr. Yadu says needs to be clear)...

I am not sure, which is why I only mentioned my observation-- subjective and possibly an error as per others. In any case, my attempt was to contrast with Gurukula study.

 

Net outcome: Students of this  generation remembered 'Samskruth Teacher' ( Guru)  throughout their life, even though they forgot most of the samskruth (Bhashaa) in the text beyond - 'ramah ramau ramaah'.  The word 'Rama'  was not a taboo in school or society !

 

This is a fact even during my generation of school study, which was the 80s. I barely studied Sanskrit during last 3 years of school, but I was an average student back then; most students picked Sanskrit because its "easier" to score.

[K S Kannan]

Dear Dr. Raghavender Upadhyayula,

As an alumnus of IISc, you may surely get to know more easily than others

how efforts are on to draw students towards pure science.

Apparently, research is at a low ebb in our country.

The Central Government has come up with schemes encouraging research,

starting with upscaling the stipend of research scholars fairly drastically.

Yet not all of the offers were taken up, and it appears grants are lapsing!

These (busy) bees go where there is more h(m)oney!

Before lucre, all else is lack lustre!

As the old saying goes:

धनैर् निष्कुलीनाः कुलीना भवन्ति,

      धनैर् आपदं मानवा निस्तरन्ति, !।

धनेभ्यस् समो नास्ति बन्धुर् हि लोके -

      धनान्यार्जयध्वं धनान्यार्जयध्वम् !!॥

I appreciate your worry and concern.

Regards

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[Irene Galstian]

It seems that Dr Narasinga Rao has now completed his project of
teaching Sanskrit from the Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan's self-teaching
4 volume set. The book series were intended as a 5 volume set, but the
5th volume hasn't come out yet, and it's been a while.

The 600-video collection is broken down into 4 parts, each
corresponding to a book in the set:

Book 1:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWjpkY4mU2RD8URCGJFG5nZQcb_PKTW8-

Book 2:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWjpkY4mU2RBHI933j5vO8uIYT-Quvtv-

Book 3:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWjpkY4mU2RB3zxK_pG0lg_SET0FsPF6N

Book 4:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWjpkY4mU2RDgsWvEUs5-MoGbYdqT8dqq

Irene

On 8/26/19, K S Kannan <ks.kann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Dr. Raghavender Upadhyayula,
>
> As an alumnus of IISc, you may surely get to know more easily than others
> how efforts are on to draw students towards pure science.
>
> Apparently, research is at a low ebb in our country.
> The Central Government has come up with schemes encouraging research,
> starting with upscaling the stipend of research scholars fairly
> drastically.
> Yet not all of the offers were taken up, and it appears grants are lapsing!
>

> These (busy) bees go where there is *more *h(m)oney!

> Before lucre, all else is lack lustre!
> As the old saying goes:
> धनैर् निष्कुलीनाः कुलीना भवन्ति,
> धनैर् आपदं मानवा निस्तरन्ति, !।
> धनेभ्यस् समो नास्ति बन्धुर् हि लोके -

> *धनान्यार्जयध्वं धनान्यार्जयध्वम् !!*॥

> I appreciate your worry and concern.
> Regards
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 6:15 PM Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I used to hear that IISER s are the brain children of or are the results
>> of the ideas of Prof. Abdul Kalam who used to show concern for this
>> situation.
>>
>> http://www.iiserpune.ac.in/
>>
>> The Government of India, through the Ministry of Human Resource

>> Development <http://mhrd.gov.in/> (MHRD), has established seven Indian

>> Institutes of Science Education and Research (IISER). These institutes
>> are
>> located in Bhopal, Berhampur, Mohali, Pune, Kolkata, Thiruvanantapuram
>> and
>> Tirupati.
>>
>> The IISERs represent a unique initiative in India where teaching and
>> education are totally integrated with state-of-the-art research nurturing
>> both curiosity and creativity in an intellectually vibrant atmosphere of
>> research. Each IISER is an autonomous institution awarding its own
>> Masters

>> and Doctoral degrees. See the *IISER System website*
>> <http://www.iisersystem.ac.in/> for more details on all IISERs.

>> http://www.iisersystem.ac.in/
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 6:03 PM Dr. Raghavender Upadhyayula <
>> upadhyay...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Respected Prof. Kannan,
>>>
>>> I would like to say a few words noting that you mentioned IISc and being
>>> an alumnus I feel responsible as well.
>>> In our days, going to IISc to do research was essentially based on

>>> individual's aptititude. But, I was not aware of any *special efforts
>>> *on

>>> part of the institute except for floating their annual exam date in
>>> newspapers.
>>> Sorry to hear that if institutions are going around advertising and
>>> trying to provide incentives to draw students to do pure science then to
>>> me
>>> it is alarming. Does it mean that the priorties of younger generation is
>>> towards more lucrative professions ? Most likely.
>>> Probably, the patience to see the fruit ripen is also not present
>>> (obviously, there will be a few exceptions).
>>> A bee flies to draw nectar from flower (a source of food, maybe
>>> ecstasy),
>>> but the flowers being taken to bee is something which is quite a jolt.
>>> Probably, evaluation of aptitude of prospective students is taking a
>>> backseat.
>>>
>>> Please forgive if I have uttered something unfair as I have become
>>> emotional to see this.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Raghu
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 7:21 PM K S Kannan <ks.kann...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Not many know perhaps that the Indian Institute of Science in Bangalore

>>>> has been making *special efforts *to draw students towards research in

>>>> pure science!
>>>> Take care of the roots, and the fruits take care of themselves!
>>>>

>>>> *सर्वे technology-भक्ताः*
>>>> * सर्वे quick-bucks-परायणाः।*
>>>> *अनिषिच्य जलैर्मूलं*
>>>> * का नामाशा फलं प्रति? ॥*

>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 6:57 PM Praveen R. Bhat <bhatp...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 6:39 PM Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for effortless speaking in Sanskrit, does the author even know
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> effortless speaking in Sanskrit is. One can cite many examples, but
>>>>>> here is
>>>>>> one of my favourites. This is Tridandi Svami Vasudevacharya
>>>>>> ‘Vidyabhaskara’ Ji of Ayodhya speaking spontaneously and effortlessly
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> Sanskrit. Can the author even understand it? And does there exist any
>>>>>> recording of Doniger speaking effortlessly in Sanskrit?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoBmNTMN3nA
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpPgHgLoptE
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> अत्र तु संस्कृतभाषायाः अमृतधारा वहति भोः। धन्यवादाः।
>>>>>
>>>>> प्रवीणभट्टः।
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>> Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>>> an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CACT7j-GwPBpZ0DPTJ3%2BJoGusnBKsgGqK1UCrRXQR5TbcKYYkow%40mail.gmail.com

>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CACT7j-GwPBpZ0DPTJ3%2BJoGusnBKsgGqK1UCrRXQR5TbcKYYkow%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>> .

>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dr. K.S.Kannan D.Litt.
>>>>
>>>> ​Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.
>>>>
>>>> Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.
>>>>
>>>> Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.
>>>>
>>>> Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.
>>>> Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.
>>>>
>>>> Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.
>>>>
>>>> Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
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>>>> an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
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>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm6pKHCw3zYNzfxeCZhJnTy0stzcF1f6CJogzNYLEOg62Q%40mail.gmail.com

>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm6pKHCw3zYNzfxeCZhJnTy0stzcF1f6CJogzNYLEOg62Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>> .

>>>>
>>> --
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>>> email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
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>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJfFokEgTmhCKkN6_AEi6ponhae-r58cc6QyqnnFRU3s4%3DOBPg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .

>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>> Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems.
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>
>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
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>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJGj9eZP-xw8hZQY9BGaGq1qNhEbazDqV6TGb-4bK0omRbqGsw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .

>>
>
>
> --
> Dr. K.S.Kannan D.Litt.
>
> ​Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.
>
> Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.
>
> Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.
>
> Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.
> Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.
>
> Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.
>
> Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
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>

[Bijoy Misra]

Friends,

Though the Deccan Harald article was written against Sanskrit teaching,

it has taken the shape of a larger soul-searching.  The education system

in the country has to change.  It still operates in the British method to

prepare people for service.  We have to prepare people for thinking.

With the family setup breaking down, the schools must take a more

active role.  The rote English education does not help.  Mathematics,

sciences and Astronomy must go into very early training.  People must

be trained to analyze and interpret new.    We have to move from language

training to sound interpretation.

It may come, but not possibly in our life time.

Best regards,

BM

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

The main question that needs to be answered is of what help is learning Sanskrit to the development of the abilities of the child.  From my point of view first and foremost as a language of academics Sanskrit is an oral language as against all other languages which are written.  Learning Sanskrit (chaste) helps the child improve his memory and language skills.  If Sanskrit grammar is taught with the right approach it will help the child to understand the structure and syntax of any other language.  Lastly, Sanskrit improves diction which in turn will help the child communicate better.  

As is said adharma can only be appreciated on the basis of dharma.  If one picks up a chaste Sanskrit tongue he will be able to appreciate tongues of other languages without difficulty.  If children in India are already forced to learn three corrupt languages it will be a great contribution to the child if he is taught Sanskrit (chaste) which if properly taught should help the child pick up the other three languages with ease.  It is a tragedy that children in school are taught Sanskrit through vernacular languages or through English.  The concept of first, second and third language should be shunned.  All Indian formal languages are well evolved and they have the necessary vocabulary, structure and syntax to express all that needs to be expressed in academics.  Sanskrit is no exception.    

All in all it is necessary that Sanskrit is taught right from 4th or 5th Std. on wards  if not for itself at least for the overall development of the child.   

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[K S Kannan]

Teaching Sanskrit for the sake of nurturing but a few practical skills in a child is to tremendously trivialise it,

making it subserve mere mundane ends and no more.

A vast horizon of a long heritage conducing to elevation and ennoblement as would endure all life and beyond

can verily open up before the child - if shown the right direction.

Or else, the child can tread the path of many Western Indologists,

who, for all their scholarship, like the industrious lowly leech

would seek but to suck the blood of even a kAmadhenu,

rather than milk the purus"Artha-s that she would benignly offer.

There can be "scientists" too who may gloat over their discovery

that the diamond is nothing but (an allotrope of) carbon, and rest content, punkt.

The old maxim says

kAcam anvis"yato maNir labdhA!

But there can be some who would

 s'ramitvA labdhvApi maNim kAcanirvis'es"am eva  tAm upayun"jAnAs tRpyanti dRpyanti ca!!

God save such creatures!

(Caveat: I am not of course speaking of the elevated beings who can be as

sama-los"TAs'ma-kAn"canaH).

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[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Kananji,

The note seems to have a jab at people who profess science.

I am of the opinion the Indian philosophy and language are founded

upon basic natural science without any assumption or extrapolation.

It is our challenge to check how observations were recorded to

create profound observations.  Yes I do differ from the Indology

hypothesis that materials were thrown through intuition.

There would many millennia of history for each statement that

looks casual these days to the "readers".

This is an opinion.

Best regards,

BM

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[K S Kannan]

No jab meant, sir, at science or scientists.

Many times, the pursuit of science becomes an end in itself.

Science can get directionless too, and can arrogate to itself

what is outside its ken or purview at a given point of time.

Instances are not rare when scientists have pooh-poohed yesterday

what they accept as normal today. At the hands of the mediocre, things pass for

being scientific while all they have is but a semblance and bombast of

scientific appurtenances and procedures.

I had read a long time ago a scientific pronouncement that

all that the human body contains is worth a mere ten dollars

- in terms of its chemical contents. Nothing could be more true,

or more trivial at the same time nevertheless!

Please look into what is marked as the infamous "19th Century arrogance of scientists"

in the history of science. Alongside, Michael Polanyi's writings could be veritable eye-openers.

True scientists, quite unlike our Indologists ( a good many of them at least)

would not be highly opinionated, or start with a load of presuppositions, prejudices and propagandism.

History has become so agenda-driven that it has veritably been reduced to a bastard discipline.

"History is hard-core interpretation surrounded by a pulp of disputable facts"

as they say.

All this is not meant to deride or declaim the value of true science or true history.

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[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Kannanji,

This commentary is not expected from you.  All Indian philosophy is pure science.

India discovered science through human speech..

There is more..  Commentaries can get loose very easily like the article we are discussing.

It is the analysis that matters.  All correlation and profile work must be thrown out.

Do encourage all to analyze if we wish to move ahead.  Nothing is closed.  The universe is open..

More we know, more is there to be known.. Scientific thinking is not there to do bombs,

but to understand nature, including human nature.  Early Indian was the champion..

Keep scientific thinking.   Discard opinionated material.  We have a lot to cover.

Sorry for this digression..

BM

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[K S Kannan]

Yes, caution sometimes get misread as cynicism.

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[Bijoy Misra]

Don't discard science, discard pseudo-science.

Most material touted as Indology is pseudo-science, no analysis, all correlation.

The British encouraged copying.  Many new "scholars" deliberately copy. 

Some copy to keep their job, both east and west.

India will rise when a scholar only expresses after he/she has something useful and creative to say..

upadeshasahasrI..

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[K S Kannan]

I just dwelt on the spells and ills of pseudo-science.

I am a votary of science, too.

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[Warija Adiga]

Namaste,

While I have not gone through each reply or discussion on this article, as a student of Sanskrit, I have posted the following comment on the article -

"This is a very exaggerated statement that "no-one" studies Sanskrit in India and Western scholars know better than the Indian scholars. I have attended a few conferences, and am amazed at the erudition of Sanskrit scholars, and I watch their lectures on you-tube too. I was an ignoramus on Sanskrit a couple  of years back, but have now started learning Sanskrit and getting deeper onto to it. It is the power of Sanskrit, it just attracts you and does not require any marketing. The power within it is so strong, once you learn the language and started reading its literature, it creates a new world for you.

I got into learning Sanskrit a couple of years back, and found it so powerful and my library is getting filled with Sanskrit books, which have created a wonderful world of wisdom for me. Please look into the work of Sanskrit Bharati, a slow revolution is happening, many are learning Sanskrit. Quite a few of my neighbors started learning Sanskrit, when they realized the richness its literature was bringing into their lives, and it was not as difficult to learn for Indians, as people think it to be.

For bashing Indian scholars, praising Western ones, I have this quote from Sanskrit -

त्वां स रक्षतियत्नेन, मां स द्वेष्टि निरन्तरम्।

तवैव दोषो नैवात्र मम दोषोऽस्ति कश्चन।।

"

The state of affairs on Sanskrit education that the author alludes to, is valid for any subject that is being taught in our schools and colleges, as "obtaining marks" as against "obtaining knowledge" or "building employability" has become the trend in the modern education system, where it is quantity and not quality that matters. So, it is unfair to target Sanskrit alone. 

Respectfully,

Warija Adiga

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Some other article by the same author:

http://www.milligazette.com/news/2353-hinduism-is-a-violent-faith  

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[Irene Galstian]

This gentleman might be specialising in producing the kind of nonsensical mishmash we’ve now seen in 2 of his articles. 

Perhaps he’s just a troll utilised by less than reputable online publications. 

Irene

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[K S Kannan]

Things become clear with the link to his other writing(s) by Prof. Paturi.

Right assessment by Prof Irene Galstian.

(But is he gentlemanly to be called a gentleman?)

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[Irene Galstian]

No, Sir, he's not particularly gentlemanly, by sound of it.
But in degrading others we degrade ourselves by allowing unworthy
thoughts to receive attention from our mind, so why not give him the
benefit of the doubt instead.

Irene

>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/69d8d138-688c-4007-9c0d-c4d35f8f33c5%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .

>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>> Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems.
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>
>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJGj9eZcNvOc0mysL4UYamTc8J89chOFVYMeeG864ve1vkMJZQ%40mail.gmail.com

>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJGj9eZcNvOc0mysL4UYamTc8J89chOFVYMeeG864ve1vkMJZQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .

>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/13277894-F2C1-4C6A-AB98-DC0D5ED7E439%40gmail.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/13277894-F2C1-4C6A-AB98-DC0D5ED7E439%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .

>>
>
>
> --
> Dr. K.S.Kannan D.Litt.
>
> ​Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.
>
> Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.
>
> Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.
>
> Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.
> Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.
>
> Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.
>
> Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.
>

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>

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste

I heard the Deccan Herald paper is controlled by left leaning Politicians and anti national interests. The Press  in India is biased. Anyone knows more details of Deccan Herald? Another anti Hindu paper is the Hindu itself. They should rename it to Anti Hindu.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:57 AM Irene Galstian <gnos...@gmail.com> wrote:

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--

Regards

 

-Venkatesh

[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste KSK

 

1.     Your response on < tremendously trivializing Sanskrit by limiting the early teaching to acquire practical skills in a child  >   and connecting it  to   <Purushartha >  is a big leap.  This triggers  thoughts to revisit Prof. Minkowski's Boden lecture deliberation on 'Why Teach Sanskrit ( at Oxford?) ? from an Indian context !

 

2.     Now, If I am to rearticulate Minkowski's words for Indian context, it would read:

 

     'Why Teach Sanskrit (=  Colonial avatar of Paninian language: Samskrutham, using 'Colonial linguistic models , tools and pedagogy at School level' at India ? 

     'What pedagogy of teaching  'language: Sanskrit' will be able to deliver ' Purushartha' ?

 

3.   I don't have to repeat the vital differences between 'Sanskrit'  and 'Samskrutham'. The  fuzziness in usage and understanding 'Sanskrit-Samskrutham -Equation' in policy levels and practical levels is not going to resolve the issue here.

 

4.   The clarity here will define the rest of the issues: 'Who can/will teach,  What content to teach,  How to teach Sanskrit/Samskrutham in a graded way in public instruction system ( which goes by a different rule control than Guru-Kul model)  ? Who is trained and qualified to teach the language for what objectives? How to evaluate ? ' Is there a teacher training system in place for Sanskrit/ Samskrutham  in the above frame work?  

 

In the current scenario, the qualification to teach Samskruth at High school level Sanskrit in Karnataka is ' Sanskrit study at PUC level ( or B.A at best, maximum). This situation  might have been revised lately. A B. Ed like degree to train a Samskruth teacher is yet to be seen in operation.

 

5.    The Language policy makers  for Indian Higher Education have provided documents and guidelines where the difference between the two pedagogies of Sanskrit/  Samskruth language teaching and study-goals seem to have been fuzzy.  Quoting select eulogies from NCERT , policy manuals, education policy et al  over the last fifty years  does not seem to resolve this issue.

 

6.    I would request you to clarify your post on < tremendously trivializing Sanskrit by limiting the early teaching to acquire practical skills in a child> and explain what you intend through the pointer of < if shown the right direction>   in the  above light, please. And who needs to do this - Parents, Teachers, Government .. Social media..?

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

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[Irene Galstian]

The desire to control itself is destructive, the intricacies of terminology but a coverup. Sooner or later, violence follows all attempts to control. 

There’s a big difference between leading by auspicious example and leading by wielding the stick of control and punishment. Needless to say, young people are keenly aware of this difference: for Nature, as pointed out by Feynman, can’t be fooled. 

Irene 

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[K S Kannan]

Verily, "leading by auspicious example" is exemplary.

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[Achyut Karve]

Can Institutions protect Sanskrit?

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[Siddharth Wakankar]

A very difficult question to answer,because,many institutions are fighting for their own survival and managing their affairs with much difficulty.

Prof. Siddharth Y Wakankar.

Vadodara.9427339942.

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[Megh Kalyanasundaram]

Interesting and revealing anecdote that, Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan ji. 

Broadly speaking, more than just one problem, or one kind of problem, seems to exist, crucially even on 'ethics,' if this Oxford-published 2019 work is to be taken seriously: 

Cracks in the Ivory Tower

The Moral Mess of Higher Education

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/cracks-in-the-ivory-tower-9780190846282?cc=us&lang=en&# 

"Academics extol high-minded ideals, such as serving the common good and promoting social justice. Universities aim to be centers of learning that find the best and brightest students, treat them fairly, and equip them with the knowledge they need to lead better lives. 

But as Jason Brennan and Phillip Magness show in Cracks in the Ivory Tower, American universities fall far short of this ideal. At almost every level, they find that students, professors, and administrators are guided by self-interest rather than ethical concerns. College bureaucratic structures also often incentivize and reward bad behavior, while disincentivizing and even punishing good behavior. Most students, faculty, and administrators are out to serve themselves and pass their costs onto others. 

The problems are deep and pervasive: most academic marketing and advertising is semi-fraudulent. To justify their own pay raises and higher budgets, administrators hire expensive and unnecessary staff. Faculty exploit students for tuition dollars through gen-ed requirements. Students hardly learn anything and cheating is pervasive. At every level, academics disguise their pursuit of self-interest with high-faluting moral language. 

Marshaling an array of data, Brennan and Magness expose many of the ethical failings of academia and in turn reshape our understanding of how such high power institutions run their business. Everyone knows academia is dysfunctional. Brennan and Magness show the problems are worse than anyone realized. Academics have only themselves to blame." 

Best,

Megh

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019, 10:09 PM Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan <b.ra...@gmail.com> wrote:

Prof. Deshpande 

Yes, the situation is somewhat alarming. I will share my experience, I think this has been happening for sometime now. It started many decades back at least in my area, and in general science, not all of it can be ascribed to to the Trump/Republicans. It may have been exacerbated in recent times, but this has been happening a while. In my area, communication theory, the NSF used to support many research programs, many quite theoretical. In the early 90s they sent out a notice that they wanted it to be tied to “practical” stuff. This forced professors to stop thinking big ideas to what kind of dog and pony show they could come up with. I saw such discussions happening right before me many times. If this had been the original case, many of the great ideas in my field may have never come to fruition. The professors themselves complained about this privately, but there was nothing they could do. It’s a general trend toward “show me the utility right now” kind of thinking. Of course the sciences and humanities are hurt much more by this kind of thinking. 

Ramakrishnan

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 9:14 AM Madhav Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu> wrote:

Dear Irene,

     Due to stiff opposition to science from Trump and the Republicans in the US, many institutions like the National Institute of Science are being stifled sword and money being diverted to phony projects.  The approach being peddled is "Yes to technology," but "No to science."  Mediocrity of the ruling class is not limited to Russia and India, we are experiencing the same phenomenon here in the USA.  

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 6:03 AM Irene Galstian <gnos...@gmail.com> wrote:

Immense resources are available in Saudi Arabia, but the country has
to buy in most of the talent to do creative/scientific work. It seems
incapable of producing its own cadres in research-related endeavours.

Another example was communist Russia. Now it's true that the
government was keen on promoting science and engineering, but the
situation on the ground was pretty dire. Administrators and
secretarial staff were very lax and ignored their work, you couldn't
get the needed books at the university library. Once by some magic
someone got the book, you had to quickly run and make Xerox copies for
the entire class, then people made copies of copies of copies, to the
point when the type was almost illegible. The grand edifice of Soviet
science was built by and carried on the shoulders of a tiny minority,
who saw the direness around them but chose to press on regardless.
These were the university professors who stayed on until 10pm teaching
students in their seminars, who answered every student question
clearly and in detail, like loving parents.
And yet, the communist party and its sidekicks were in charge, and in
their meetings renounced these professors as potential sellouts to
capitalism, fabricated false allegations against them, which cost some
their lives. That's because these scientists, philologists, poets,
etc. were intelligent and capable of creating wonderful things, and
the mediocrities who swarmed around the communist party's protection
hated and feared them in equal measure.
I'm sure you see at least some parallels with the present Indian
situation in this short trip down the memory lane.

Irene

On 8/25/19, K S Kannan <ks.kann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can you please elucidate what happened in Saudi Arabia?
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 6:09 PM Irene Galstian <gnos...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Can anyone empirically deny the correlation between the availability
>> of resources and the quantity of high-quality scholarship? "
>>
>> Yes, Megh, one can. Example: Saudi Arabia.
>>
>> Good scholarship requires a certain elevation of the mind. Resources
>> alone aren't sufficient.
>>
>> Irene
>>
>> On 8/25/19, Megh Kalyanasundaram <kalyanasun...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > So much to agree with what is in your note, Professor Kannan.
>> >
>> > With roughly US$45 trillion, as per one estimate
>> > <
>> https://www.livemint.com/Companies/HNZA71LNVNNVXQ1eaIKu6M/British-Raj-siphoned-out-45-trillion-from-India-Utsa-Patna.html
>> >,
>> > having been extracted from India by British, subsequent migration and
>> > transfer (of other kinds, including but not limited knowledge assets)
>> from
>> > Britain to US, with universities like Yale in US having being initially
>> > built also on sweat and extractions from India-Madras (An astounding
>> > tale
>> > of slavery and deceit: Yale University's Madras connection
>> > <
>> https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/astounding-tale-slavery-and-deceit-yale-universitys-madras-connection-57228
>> >),
>> > it should hardly surprise anyone that institutions in UK have done well
>> > institutionally: would it not have been a shame to have not done well
>> with
>> > the resources extracted! Can anyone empirically deny the correlation
>> > between the availability of resources and the quantity of high-quality
>> > scholarship?
>> >
>> > India is slowly recovering and while none of the above is meant as an
>> > excuse for avoidable (if any) issues/inefficiencies that might exist
>> within
>> > the current resource allocation matrix or in the way the incentives
>> > might
>> > be aligned, it becomes more important, in my humble opinion, to
>> > acknowledge, nay, celebrate the efforts of those scholars who operate
>> from
>> > within much more resource-constrained environs and yet produce
>> > original,
>> > world-class scholarship.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Megh
>> >
>> > On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 5:41 PM K S Kannan <ks.kann...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> After the devastation wrought by the colonial forces, the erstwhile
>> >> ruling
>> >> party delivered education unto the hands of Marxists whose role was
>> >> only
>> >> more ruinous than that of the British in respect of the traditional
>> >> lore
>> >> of
>> >> Sanskrit and various Indian art forms. Allied studies such as
>> archaeology
>> >> etc. too suffered neglect.
>> >>
>> >> Education ruined, all ruination else followed suit in quick
>> >> succession:
>> >> *chinne mUle naiva vRks"am na s'AkhAH!*
>> >>
>> >> We have taken a severe, and unfair, beating at the hands of the West
>> >> for
>> >> the past two or more centuries - in the economic and intellectual
>> fronts.
>> >>
>> >> However, a new era seems to be dawning upon India, with some at the
>> >> top
>> >> at
>> >> least at last declaring some concern for our heritage.
>> >> A new awareness is also building up among (a small percentage, though)
>> of
>> >> the youth/the educated/the affluent - of the damage wrought so far by
>> the
>> >> imperialists &/or their agents/sepoys here. Let us hope there will be
>> >> a
>> >> few
>> >> bright/determined minds who will take up the daunting tasks - of
>> >> rectification/restoration/resuscitation/rejuvenation.
>> >>
>> >> Apparently, a reverse trend is afoot. It may take a century easily for
>> >> something seriously happening.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 4:38 PM Aravinda Rao <karav...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Dear friends,
>> >>>
>> >>> This has been a rather uncomfortable discussion. I am not from the
>> >>> Sanskrit academic stream, but as an outsider I have been associated
>> with
>> >>> Sanskrit studies for about 25 years. I have been noticing some of the
>> >>> inadequacies of the present day scholars.
>> >>>
>> >>> About 15-20 years ago, I met several चतुश्शास्त्र पण्डित-s, those who
>> >>> were well versed in Vyakarana, Vedanta, Mimamsa and Nyaya. They knew
>> >>> several texts by heart and were able to teach without the help of a
>> >>> text.
>> >>> In addition they were also well versed in Sahitya. This tribe has
>> >>> drastically dwindled now. The scholars who are products of the
>> >>> University
>> >>> stream are not a match for the older scholars.
>> >>>
>> >>> More important than this is that the Western Sanskritists have a
>> >>> wider
>> >>> grounding in languages such as Greek, Latin etc., in addition to
>> >>> Sanskrit.
>> >>> Several years ago, George Cardona, the well known grammarian, spoke
>> >>> in
>> >>> the
>> >>> Osmania University, Hyderabad, making observations on Linguistics in
>> >>> Greek
>> >>> and Latin, in addition to Sanskrit. Our scholars were mere audience.
>> The
>> >>> present bête noir, Sheldon Pollock is well versed in the classical
>> >>> languages of the West in addition to Sanskrit. He seems to have held
>> >>> a
>> >>> discussion with the Sringeri Acharya in Sanskrit. I read a book,
>> >>> ‘Empires
>> >>> of the Word – A Language History of the World’ by a British scholar,
>> >>> Nicholas Ostler, who according to his introduction, knew about 20
>> >>> languages, besides having a Ph.D. in 6 languages such as Greek, Latin
>> >>> and
>> >>> Sanskrit.
>> >>>
>> >>> For the past many years I have been appealing to the young Sanskrit
>> >>> scholars that they should pursue studies in Greek, Latin, Hebrew,
>> >>> Persian
>> >>> etc., in order to authoritatively talk on what the Western
>> >>> Indologists
>> >>> are
>> >>> writing. Just as several Western scholars have an intimate knowledge
>> >>> of
>> >>> the
>> >>> Sanskrit tradition, the Indian scholars too should aim at knowledge
>> >>> of
>> >>> other traditions from the original sources. My apologies to scholars
>> >>> like
>> >>> Vishwa Adluri, Bagchi and some others of this group who may be some
>> >>> noble
>> >>> exceptions. The Indian *vaada* tradition shows that all our old
>> >>> acharya-s knew the पूर्वपक्ष thoroughly while having debates on a
>> >>> subject. Glorious examples such as Kumarila bhatta, Shankara,
>> >>> Ramanuja
>> >>> and
>> >>> many others come to our mind. I recall a line from one text book in
>> >>> Linguistics, which says, ‘what does he know of English who only
>> >>> English
>> >>> knows?’ This applies to all languages and traditions.
>> >>>
>> >>> I believe that the Western scholars will continue to write our
>> narrative
>> >>> which may seem more credible and authoritative. The Indian scholars
>> >>> should
>> >>> be able to speak to them at the same level of scholarship.
>> >>>
>> >>> Aravinda Rao K.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 4:32 PM Megh Kalyanasundaram <
>> >>> kalyanasun...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Much of your note resonated with me, Murthy ji.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I wonder if there isn't another nuance here too. The author remarks
>> >>>> that "professors of Sanskrit at Indian universities are just whiling
>> >>>> away
>> >>>> their time while getting hefty salaries". I would be happy to be
>> >>>> corrected about this but if I am not mistaken, don't professors of
>> >>>> Sanskrit
>> >>>> at universities in US, Europe, and Australia earn substantially more
>> >>>> than
>> >>>> professors in India? Yet, why aren't there enough books like that of
>> >>>> Korada Subrahmanyam ji's Theories of Language: Oriental and
>> >>>> Occidental
>> >>>> <
>> https://www.amazon.com/Theories-Language-Occidental-Korada-Subrahmanyam/dp/812460455X
>> >
>> >>>> ? Books, like his, that:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 1) are devoid of questionable/unsubstantiated hypotheses
>> >>>> (pertaining,
>> >>>> for instance, to the spatial and temporal origins of the earliest
>> >>>> form
>> >>>> of
>> >>>> Sanskrit) that took birth and shape (roughty) between 16th and early
>> >>>> 20th
>> >>>> century and continue to be mainstream
>> >>>> 2) critically assess and deconstruct developments in historical
>> >>>> linguistics, from an Indic lens (as Dr. Subrahmanyam does in his
>> book),
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> identify (unattributed) reformulations, blatant appropriations,
>> >>>> digestion,
>> >>>> etc?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I would be grateful to anyone who can point me to a book like that
>> >>>> of
>> >>>> Professor Subrahmanyam's (either before or after his book) which has
>> >>>> been
>> >>>> authored by someone who is on the payroll of an institution in US or
>> in
>> >>>> Europe?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Best,
>> >>>> Megh
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 3:18 PM G S S Murthy <murt...@gmail.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> The article of Prof.Paul has inaccuracies and is full of
>> >>>>> generalities
>> >>>>> without factual backing. There are a large number of traditional
>> >>>>> and
>> >>>>> modern
>> >>>>> Sanskrit scholars who can comfortably speak Sanskrit. There are
>> >>>>> youngsters
>> >>>>> who participate in aashukavitaaspardhas. Like in any other academic
>> >>>>> stream
>> >>>>> in India, quality of research may not be at par with that of
>> >>>>> Western
>> >>>>> Institutions. Things are changing and it takes time to get results,
>> >>>>> hopefully.
>> >>>>> Thanks and regards,
>> >>>>> Murthy
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 at 14:25, Praveen R. Bhat
>> >>>>> <bhatp...@gmail.com
>> >
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 2:05 PM Ramakrishnan <srk...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Fraud alert: The author of the article claims that Wendy Doniger
>> >>>>>>> speaks in colloquial, classcial and Vedic variants of Sanskrit!
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Regards,
>> >>>>>>> Ramakrishnan
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> That too *effortlessly*, Ramakrishnan ji!

>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Kind rgds,
>> >>>>>> --Praveen R. Bhat
>> >>>>>> /* येनेदं सर्वं विजानाति, तं केन विजानीयात्। Through what should
>> >>>>>> one
>> >>>>>> know That owing to which all this is known! [Br.Up. 4.5.15] */
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> >>>>>> Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>> >>>>>> send
>> >>>>>> an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
>> >>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> >>>>>>

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CACT7j-FswxYSQDDTUzEDH-YhNyxse6wFCFP1P8O-Yhn6AXbR%2BA%40mail.gmail.com
>> >>>>>> <
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CACT7j-FswxYSQDDTUzEDH-YhNyxse6wFCFP1P8O-Yhn6AXbR%2BA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
>> >
>> >>>>>> .
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> My web site : http://murthygss.tripod.com/index.htm
>> >>>>> and also my Sanskrit blog :
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> http://simplesanskrit.blogspot.com/
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> *http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com <http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com/>*

>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> >>>>> Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
>> >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>> send
>> >>>>> an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
>> >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> >>>>>

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CADi6ZRigjKmHeJcgSHR5SdQOsFHSagAUctFjE-%2BWJR%3D33T%3D_Kw%40mail.gmail.com
>> >>>>> <
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CADi6ZRigjKmHeJcgSHR5SdQOsFHSagAUctFjE-%2BWJR%3D33T%3D_Kw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
>> >
>> >>>>> .

>> >>>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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>> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>> >>>> send
>> >>>> an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
>> >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> >>>>

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJypMHd65nmSvMHRSAWtMcKGJ9u88chaKFgJ09-unvrTHh7VCg%40mail.gmail.com
>> >>>> <
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJypMHd65nmSvMHRSAWtMcKGJ9u88chaKFgJ09-unvrTHh7VCg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
>> >
>> >>>> .

>> >>>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> >>> Groups
>> >>> "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
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>> >>> an
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>> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> >>>

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAGwUMpQ2CpoenATQ8zGpBkqRn99B7ZaGqj2_oV%3Diq5MkwQA7CA%40mail.gmail.com
>> >>> <
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAGwUMpQ2CpoenATQ8zGpBkqRn99B7ZaGqj2_oV%3Diq5MkwQA7CA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

>> >
>> >>> .
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.
>> >>
>> >> Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.
>> >>
>> >> Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.
>> >>
>> >> Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.
>> >>
>> >> Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.
>> >> Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.
>> >>
>> >> Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.
>> >>
>> >> Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups
>> >> "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>> an
>> >> email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
>> >> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> >>

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm7peZ-FNQ4%3DLmgXFiDLk0QYaz%3DUp4fP1Nb%3D_%2BGFRck63g%40mail.gmail.com
>> >> <
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm7peZ-FNQ4%3DLmgXFiDLk0QYaz%3DUp4fP1Nb%3D_%2BGFRck63g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
>> >
>> >> .

>> >>
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> > Groups
>> > "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>> > an
>> > email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
>> > To view this discussion on the web visit
>> >

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJypMHdcQaM26BC5uC3scdxoG9zQE_v2r%3DO795UPwqLWzmoHVg%40mail.gmail.com
>> .

>> >
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAFPaCQM_WFYTHgDV_Nz3etaoZVH9gp1SxcAR8OeoWTJ84_D-%2BQ%40mail.gmail.com

>> .
>>
>
>
> --
> Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.
>
> ​Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.
>
> Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.
>
> Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.
>
> Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.
> Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.
>
> Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.
>
> Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm7P24LKw%3DZM%3Dt43XvLOPXrGbEMNDpu6H6QGjr%2BO381Jcw%40mail.gmail.com.

>

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