Vipassana

[Radhakrishna Warrier]

What is the Sanskrit equivalent of the Buddhist term “Vipassana”?  I know it is a kind of meditation, but what exactly is it?

Regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier 

[Hnbhat B.R.]

"विपश्यना (संस्कृत) या विपस्सना (पालि) यह गौतम बुद्ध द्वारा बताई गई एक बौद्ध योग साधना हैं। विपश्यना का अर्थ है - विशेष प्रकार से देखना (वि + पश्य + ना)।

योग साधना के तीन मार्ग प्रचलित हैं - विपश्यना, भावातीत ध्यान और हठयोग।

भगवान बुद्ध ने ध्यान की 'विपश्यना-साधना' द्वारा बुद्धत्व प्राप्त किया था। महात्मा बुद्ध की शिक्षाओं में से एक विपश्यना भी है। यह वास्तव में सत्य की उपासना है। सत्य में जीने का अभ्यास है। विपश्यना इसी क्षण में यानी तत्काल में जीने की कला है। भूत की चिंताएं और भविष्य की आशंकाओं में जीने की जगह भगवान बुद्ध ने अपने शिष्यों को आज के बारे में सोचने केलिए कहा। विपश्यना सम्यक् ज्ञान है। जो जैसा है, उसे ठीक वैसा ही देख-समझकर जो आचरण होगा, वही सही और कल्याणकारी सम्यक आचरण होगा। विपश्यना जीवन की सच्चाई से भागने की शिक्षा नहीं देता है, बल्कि यह जीवन की सच्चाई को उसके वास्तविक रूप में स्वीकारने की प्रेरणा देता है।"

I don't think of a sanskrit word derived as such. MW gives the word as

वि-°पश्यन n. (or f(आ). ) right knowledge, Buddh.

No derivation of the word is given. May be some derivation be found in Hemachandra's Grammar. Possibility is just it is converted from Pali with consonant  changes.

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[Radhakrishna Warrier]

Thank you Shri Bhat.

Regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier

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[Madhav Deshpande]

Just to add a note to Dr. Bhat's comments, Hemacandra's Prakrit grammar does not cover Pali.  This is the case of all other Prakrit grammars.  The existence of Pali was unknown to the Prakrit grammarians, and the Pali grammars, all of them written in Sri Lanka or Burma, show no awareness of any other Prakrit languages.  The word "vipaśyanā" [parallel to Pali vipassanā] is found in the Buddhist Sanskrit literature, which shows numerous words that are Sanskritized forms of some earlier Prakrit base.  However, the Pali texts themselves were not converted to Sanskrit by the Buddhists.  Only in modern times, there are some Sanskrit renderings of Pali texts like the Dhammapada [by scholars like Rahul Sankrityayan].  In northern India, Buddhist texts existed in multiple languages including, Sanskrit, Prakrit and Gāndhārī, and there are references to Apabhraṃśa versions.  While the Buddhist Sanskrit texts are available in great quantity, there are only rare samples of texts available in Gāndhārī and Prakrit.

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[K S Kannan]

I am a bit puzzled over this:

While both Buddhists and Jains produced enormous literature in Sanskrit,

they shunned as it were each other's languages: Pali ignores Prakrit, and vice versa.

But why? Any conjectures formulated?

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Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

[Madhav Deshpande]

After the Pali tradition was transported to Sri Lanka during the time of Aśoka, it survived there and spread to countries of South East Asia, but there was almost no trace of it left in India.  Buddhism in India continued in traditions expressed in Sanskrit, Gāndhāri, Prakrit, etc. but not in Pali. The Chinese travellers who visited India did not find any Pali traditions there, but some of them visited Sri Lanka and came to know of the Pali tradition.  There are no quotations of or references to any Pali texts in the Buddhist Sanskrit texts written in India. The Jain texts are exclusively composed in India, and their authors were not in touch with the Pali tradition that survived in Sri Lanka.  The Jains and the Buddhists in India were aware of each other's traditions that lived in the same regions.  The existence of the Pali texts became known in India only during the colonial period, when the Pali texts began to be published and studied in European countries and in the newly established universities in India.  The Devanāgarī editions of Pali texts is a relatively recent phenomenon, and they are all conversions from other scripts like the Singhalese and the Burmese or the Roman texts published by the Pali Text Society in London.  The volumes of the Devanagari edition of the Tripiṭaka from Nalanda edited by Bhikkhu Jadadisa Kassapa give references on every page to Roman, Sri Lankan, Burmese and Thai editions and note textual variants found in these different versions.

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[K S Kannan]

Weren't the Buddha and Mahavira, both from royal families, close enough spatially and temporally?

Didn't Pali survive even in Burma which must then have been a natural part of India?

Though called Myanmar now, did Burma have any other name in the past?

And didn't Chinese travellers encounter Pali texts anywhere, else than Ceylon?

Did Sanskrit provide, then, a common platform to the many competing schools?

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Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Member, Academic Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthana.

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Professor Kannan,

     You have raised important questions, but the answers are not easy to come by.  It is true that Mahāvīra and Buddha were almost contemporary and both came from the region of Magadha, and hence must have spoken languages from that region.  Indeed, the Jains call their Prakrit Ardhamāgadhi, while the Pali tradition calls its language Māgadhī.  However, there is no hard core linguistic evidence available to us contemporary with Mahāvīra and Buddha.  The Prakrit dialects seen in Aśoka's inscriptions do not exactly match either with Ardhamāgadhī or with Pali.  Pali has linguistic features that do not match any other Prakrit known to us, and it is generally believed that the Pali tradition was transported to Sri Lanka from the region of Maharashtra/Gujarat, but it does not agree with Prakrits known from this region.  Anyway, whatever the Indian regional dialect that is at the basis of Pali, it is not recorded anywhere in India, either in inscriptions or in literature.  While some Buddhist traditions like the Sarvāstivāda are preserved in Sanskrit, it is not clear how old the use of Sanskrit is in the history of these traditions.  The Sanskrit of the oldest Sarvāstivāda Āgamas looks like it is a Sanskritized version of some earlier Prakrit, but they are not directly Sanskrit translations of the Pali canon.  The Sarvāstivāda tradition shows no awareness of the Pali tradition. In later Buddhism in India, as in later Jainism, the authors used perfectly standard Sanskrit and even wrote many grammars of Sanskrit.  However, the Pali tradition in Sri Lanka and Southeast Asia did not render its scriptures into Sanskrit, and there is no evidence that they communicated with Buddhist traditions in India using Sanskrit.

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[K S Kannan]

Dear Professor Deshpande,

Your answers open up many dimensions of the issues that are not easily perceived or discerned.

Almost concomitant interrogations and investigations could be on these lines:

The very appellation Samskrta apparently implies something raw or crude or elementary of which or upon and over which it bespeaks of a refinement and sophistication. All the same, the bulk of the vocabulary of Pali and the Prakrits bid fair to be simplifications if not atrophies (by the as'akta-abhidhAtR-s) of the ever rich Sanskrit vocabulary. It has been admitted by scholars in spite of themselves, as it were, that attempting to teach Pali to a student is more easy via Sanskrit (declensions and conjugations, for example), which all not only betray Sanskrit paradigms incessantly at work, but each individual vocable almost of these languages more or less reducible and deductible from actual finished Sanskrit forms, rather than getting built upon or evolving out of bases that can be conceived of or actually entertained in those very languages. Among others, Prof. VRaghavan spoke of Vedic vocables, rather than Sanskrit words, as sources or ancestors of numerous Pali words of which they are descendants (and as corroborated on even syntactical grounds and considerations). Whereas the process of prAkRtisation is evidently discernible - even within Vedic vocabulary even if not on any significant scale; and even in the realm of even the monosyllabic roots available in the various Dhatu-patha-s;  is it also not a matter of no small wonder that these languages hardly became a good breeding ground for any cultivation or continuation of the innumerable sastra-s and disciplines that we countenance in Sanskrit?: it is as though the desi could hardly sustain itself except upon the succour and strength, nourishment and nexus dowered upon and showered by the margi? How does one account then for the vitality of Sanskrit, the sole pan-Indian language that could so generously nourish and cherish scores of languages through scores of centuries, even beyond the borders of India of whatever date?  (To extrapolate and enunciate similar patterns and paradigms to the world of Western languages such as the Avestan or Greek or Latin would be to court adversarial comments in abundance, and not immediately very beneficial to the issue being discussed either, and so need not be pursued here). But then, how is all this explained?

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[Radhakrishna Warrier]

Thank you Prof. Deshpande ji for you clarifications.  And thank you Dr. Kannan for your further notes.

"All the same, the bulk of the vocabulary of Pali and the Prakrits bid fair to be simplifications if not atrophies (by the as'akta-abhidhAtR-s) of the ever rich Sanskrit vocabulary."  

Whatever little Sanskrit I know (mostly words, not grammar) is because I know Malayalam and studied my mother tongue in school.  With my very limited knowledge, it appears to me that many technical terms used in Pali and the various other Prakrits are probably created from Sanskrit through well established rules of "atrophy".  These rules might have been based on natural evolution of the language such as say, the natural evolution of a Prakrit word "akkhi" from an earlier "akshi" for eye.  In short, technical terms might not have been naturally occuring words in the Prakrits but created from Sanskrit words using the rules of "atrophy", that is, the rules of natural evolution observed in naturally occuring words.  

Here is a question.  This is not about just individual words or technical terms, but about the language itself.  If we just reverse the atrophy of words, can we obtain Sanskrit from Pali and other Prakrits without any profound changes in grammar or sentence structure?  Modern Indo-Aryan (say Hindi or Gujarati) has evolved so much that this process is not possible even after removing all non-Indic words, i.e., you cannot get Sanskrit from pure Hindi or pure Gujarati by just reversing the atrophy, or natural evolution of  words. But is this possible with Pali or other Prakrits?

Regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier

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[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Radhakrishna Ji,

     More sound changes and morphological changes are seen to take place as one goes from Sanskrit > Pali > Prakrits > Apabhraṃśa > New Indo-Aryan languages.  In that sense, Pali is linguistically closer to Sanskrit than Prakrits.  How much of Pali technical terminology was consciously rendered from Sanskrit is not clear.  That assumes that Pali speakers were fully conversant with Sanskrit and that they were consciously taking vocabulary from Sanskrit and introducing it into Pali.  I doubt that for the earlier periods of Pali.  For some of the medieval Pali poetic works produced in Sri Lanka, it is clear that the authors are fully conversant with Sanskrit, and in some cases, they are copying the wording of authors like Bāṇabhaṭṭa into Pali.  But that may not be the case for the earlier canonical Pali.  Literary Marathi going back to the earliest period, as in the works of Jñāneśvara, is seen to incorporate Sanskrit vocabulary without always putting it through Prakritic changes.  But that does not seem to happen in Pali or Prakrits.  In literary Pali and Prakrit works, the Sanskrit vocabulary is always transformed using the established rules.  This is what we also see in the Prakrit used in the Sanskrit dramas.   The canonical Pali, at least in the conversational dialogues, looks like a natural language.  The technical vocabulary in Vinaya and Abhidharma works possibly shows familiarity with Sanskrit, though all such words are phonetically normalized in Pali.  In any case, this is a very interesting subject.  But it would be largely only a bold guess work to assert that a given word is not original to colloquial Pali and that it is definitely a borrowing from Sanskrit.

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[K S Kannan]

This leads to the question of any investigations done as yet in regard to

technical terms occurring in early canonical Pali. Any pointers to such literature?

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[BVK Sastry]

Namaste

 

 

In response to the starting question :   < Radhakrishna Warrier, <radwa...@hotmail.com> wrote:   What is the Sanskrit equivalent of the Buddhist term “Vipassana”?  I know it is a kind of meditation, but what exactly is it?        >  :

 

The most practical, closest meaning Samskruth term looks like : < (vishesha/ vishuddha)  - [ prekshaa ( pra + iikshaa)]  -  (prajna) >. 

This matches with the understanding and practice  in the communities  and Yoga-Tradition context to which this term belongs to.

 

In case more details on Pali dictionaries are needed, please explore: http://www.leighb.com/glossary.htm

The Vipassanaa Research institution : https://www.vridhamma.org/What-is-Vipassana

 

Source : https://www.saigon.com/anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_v.htm  :   vipassanā: 'insight', is the intuitive light flashing forth and exposing the truth of the impermanency, the suffering and the impersonal and unsubstantial nature of all corporeal and mental phenomena of existence. It is insight-wisdom (vipassanā-paññā) that is the decisive liberating factor in Buddhism, though it has to be developed along with the 2 other trainings in morality and concentration. The culmination of insight practice (s. visuddhi VI) leads directly to the stages of holiness (s. visuddhi VII).

Insight is not the result of a mere intellectual understanding, but is won through direct meditative observation of one's own bodily and mental processes. In the commentaries and the Vis.M., the sequene in developing insight-meditation is given as follows: 1. discernment of the corporeal (rūpa), 2. of the mental (nāma), 3. contemplation of both (nāmarūpa; i.e. of their pairwise occurrence in actual events, and their interdependence), 4. both viewed as conditioned (application of the dependent origination, paṭiccasamuppāda), 5. application of the 3 characteristics (impermanency, etc.) to mind-and-body-cum-conditions.

The stages of gradually growing insight are described in the 9insight- knowledges (vipassanā-ñāṇa), constituting the 6th stage of purification: beginning with the 'knowledge of rise and fall' and ending with the 'adaptation to Truth'. For details, see visuddhi VI and Vis.M. XXI.

Eighteen chief kinds of insight-knowledge (or principal insights, mahā-vipassanā) are listed and described in Vis.M. XXII, 113: (1) contemplation of impermanence (aniccānupassanā), (2) of suffering (dukkhānupassanā), (3) of no self (anattānupnupassanā), (4) of aversion (nibbidānupassanā). (5) of detachment (virāgānupassanā), (6) of extinction (nirodhānupassanā), (7) of abandoning (paṭinissaggānupassanāā), (8) of waning (khayānupassanā), (9) of vanishing (vayānupassanā), (10) of change (vipariṇāmānupassanā), (11) of the unconditioned (or signless, animittānupassanā), (12) of desirelessness (apaṇihitānupassanā), (13) of emptiness (suññatāupassanā), (14) insight into phenomena which is higher wisdom (adhipaññā-dhamma-vipassanā), (15) knowledge and vision according to reality (yathā-bhūta-ñāṇadassana), (16) contemplation of misery (or danger, ādīnavānupassanā), (17) reflecting contemplation (paṭisaṅkhānupassanā), (18) contemplation of turning away (vivaṭṭanānupassanā).

Through these 18, the adverse ideas and views are overcome, for which reason this way of overcoming is called 'overcoming by the opposite' (tadaṅga-pahāna, overcoming this factor by that). Thus (1) dispels the idea of permanence. (2) the idea of happiness, (3) the idea of self, (4) lust, (5) greed, (6) origination, (7) grasping, (8) the idea of compactness, (9) kamma-accumulation, (10) the idea of lastingness, (11) the conditions, (12) delight, (13) adherence, (14) grasping and adherence to the idea of substance, (15) attachment and adherence, (17) thoughtlessness, (18) dispels entanglement and clinging.

Insight may be either mundane (lokiya, q.v.) or supermundane (lokuttara, q.v.). Supermundane insight is of 3 kinds: (1) joined with one of the 4 supermundane paths, (2) joined with one of the fruitions of these paths, (3) regarding the extinction, or rather suspension, of consciousness (s. nirodha-samāpatti).

See samatha-vipassanā, visuddhi, III-VII.

Literature: Manual of Insight, by Ledi Sayadaw (WHEL 31/32). Practical Insight Meditation, Progress of Insight, both by Mahāsi Sayadaw (BPS). The Experience of Insight, by Joseph Goldstein (BPS).

Regards

BVK Sastry

[R Balagopal]

Namaste,

Inquiry into the linguistics of Pali and Sanskrit is very interesting.  Are the reasons for the failure of Pali to maintain traction in India due to the difference in contents handled mostly in the two languages?

Pali's thrust in Buddhism and Jainism and that of the Sanskrit in the Vedas?

Is it because that they either went against or rejected the Vedas and hence found it difficult to take roots in India ?

When through 'vipassana' Buddha urged to live in the 'present', 'see things as it is' etc people found more sense and more compelling in Vedanta which had a more powerful living 'sampRadAya' (learning from a Guru who was not only 'shrotRiya' but a 'Brahmanishta' too) that explained the TRUTH through the 'ShravaNa-manana-nidhidhyasana' using the support of scripture, logic and experience ?

Regards

Balagopal

PS: Please bear with me if the  above post is inappropriate for this forum / thread

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

There is nothing inappropriate in your post, Sri R Balagopal-ji. 

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Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.

Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

The relation between Sanskrit and Prakrits including Pali is the relation between standard dialect  / form and the regional and social dialects. Standard dialect /form of any language ( here, Sanskrit )

1. is used in the entire area of the language ( here, in majority of the Indic sub-continent)

2. is used uniformly throughout the area ( here, in majority of the Indic sub-continent)

3. does not change in time as fast as the dialects (here, Prakrits including Pali )

The regional and social dialects (here, Prakrits including Pali )

1. are used only in the respective regions and the respective social classes only

2. have different forms from each other 

3. change in time faster than the  standard dialect  / form. 

We notice many movements today favoring /asking for the use of the regional or social dialects replacing the current standard form /dialect. These movements have regionalist or other social and/or political motivations. That is why the use of Prakrits including Pali by Buddhists and Jains is being interpreted as an activity with social and/or political motivations.

But the use of Pali by Buddhists and Jains need not be interpreted that way.      

  

[Bijoy Misra]

All,

I have two observations I wanted to share.  (There is a massive snow storm here and I was busy otherwise).

1.  There exist a whole host of folk-legends and literature in Odisha regarding the Kalinga's naval interaction with

     Srilanka (Simhala) during the period of Ashoka and before.  It is believed that there was continuing cultural

     and trade relations between the regions including a historical statement that the early rulers in Ceylon might

     have been from Kalinga.  I have heard of copper plates but have not looked or studied them.

2.  Personally and as a matter of scientific exploration of oral communication, I have come to believe that the

     grammar of human speech is neurologically limited than acoustically limited.  Hence analysis of audible

     sound to define communication should be considered a gross artificial construct.  It is possible and probably

     true that the Paninian syllables are close approximations of the neurologically cognitive units of information

     produced and conveyed by the humans.  But the diction, the analog continuity and the intent of complete

     delivery carry a biological grammar from the point of view of information processing.  In this context the old

     oral languages including the Vedic would have more naturalness of expression than the later grammatical

     constructs used for literary comprehension.  The movement of sound from communication has possibly to

     be constructed from the first principles of basic neurology.  A sound's cognitive meaning could be more

     primitive than we are given to understand.  I lately saw such enunciation in Bhatrhari but he does not mention

     of any older philosophers on the topic.  Scholars who are into Mimamsa might help educate.

On a side note, snow is continuing.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

 

 

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[Irene Galstian]

Yes, if Mimamsa scholars help with references and advice, that would be kind.

Thank you,

Irene

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Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

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Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Member, Academic Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthana.

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Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Member, Academic Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthana.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

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[BVK Sastry]

Namaste

 

On <  linguistics of Pali and Sanskrit ... reasons for the failure of Pali to maintain traction in India due to the difference in contents handled mostly in the two languages? .... Pali's thrust in Buddhism and Jainism and that of the Sanskrit in the Vedas?  > :

 

Some observations: ( if  not palatable an out of main stream, please excuse).   

 

a) Language and Religion streak association :

 

Language, irrespective of Samskruth, Pali, Prakrut, apabhramsha, Mleccha... survives in a society by  serving a utility. That  utility is dependent on the patronage of user community for that language.  Samskruth has survived over a period of time/ centuries  due to the ' unquestioned faith/ trust/ belief' associated with this language for the benefits desired by user community.  Best example :  sensitivity  for   articulate 'Swara purity' of Vedic Chant  in user community is anchored to the faith ( - brahma loke maheeyate) and fear ( yathendrashatruh svartoparaadhaat).  This has helped to preserve the 'sound-structure- sequence-flow' of Vedas . But the  same level of sensitivity for 'meaning of the mantra ( -mantraartha) ' is not present in user community.

Net outcome: Perfection in  guarding  Vedic Chanting through voice-mode-articulation and deployment in Vidhi is  supported unquestioned; any effort to change the 'swara' is resisted.  CONTRA, the meaning of Veda-mantra is allowed to be plastically fluidly distorted; the support to guard the meaning of mantra (Veda) is minimal.  The post colonial model indian support for Veda-preservation, till date, is a standing example for this. While Indian traditionalists have made every effort to guard 'Veda-(Shabda) Shareera', they have not matched their effort in guarding the ' Veda-  (Artha/Atma)- Shareera'.  

 

The thrust in society for any specific language depends upon the community connect and Communication utility.

Buddhism and Jainism used social languages to deliver the Yoga- Practice Benefits.  The practicality of ardha-magadhi, magadhi, desh bhashaa, prakrits served this need.

The same teams used Samskruth for  writing their 'Shaastra' works. For the social language was not precise enough for this need. Buddhism and Jainism used  social language as a foundation to bridge the path towards the Spiritual (Adhyatma-Yoga-bhashaa; techncially called the language technicality of the Suttas) language. The choice was based on the motive and purpose served.  Over a period of time, the dynamics of languages of Prakruths changed. So the Pali-Prakruth end up as ' out of society/ locked to the seminary/  classical languages'. the new social model is 'Desha-bhashaa, Jati-bhashaa, kula-bhashaa'. Now a days, it is ' international cyber-bhahsaa, the english we are using to make this dialogue.

 

Vedic teams ( including Valmiki/ Vyasa paramparaa)  was connecting the society to higher level of Rushi -paramparaa using the   'model of Chandas- Bhashaa' paradigm. The Bhashaa served as the bridge to  get to Yoga/ Vak-yoga model of Samskrutham to have the vision of ' Chandas/ Mantra'.  The yajna was a speciifc model of Yoga for providing this connect. The details are in aaranyaka. The social model of benefit through yajna is given in Shrauta and Gruhya sutras. the yoga models of yajna are given in Gita. So, the language of 'Bhasha' to get to  'Chandas' was Vedic teams model.  The choice was based on the motive and purpose served.

 

 

b) On < failure of Pali to maintain traction in India   > : The language did not fail. The society had a different dynamics to keep the language alive. If you look at the Indian languages itself, tenth century desi language models of Kannada, telugu, Tamil, Gurjari, Maharshtrian,.....  does not work for 14th century; 17th century; 20th century.  Same for english also. Shakespearean English does not work in 21 st century social media.

So, the language gets traction only when language user community is sensitive to the importance of language, work consciously and vigilantly to prevent language deterioration in education and usage.  In other words, if one were to understand the strategy of colonial mindset  to bring down the culture of target nation, the first goal was to take total control of ' language of community and language of religion of community'. No need to elaborate on this.

Pali was preferred at some point in india by rulers at India; and the position -control reverted to Samskruth. just a historic change. Now, neither Pali or Samskruth has any love left with Nations governance and user communities ! When user community highlights and supports  only  social benefit/ job opportunity  through language learning,  and ignores the cultural/spiritual / religious benefits and connectivity to inheritance,  the slide down of  language begins.  In present period, in the moving language-bus, english is in driving seat; rest of the languages are jam packed in the bus; and sanskrit -pali- prakruth are hanging by side rails of the moving bus.  

 

c) This situation can be rectified only by proactive interest and investment support to revive the language by practically demonstrating the ' social benefit of the language along side cultural benefit' right from early education through advanced studies. Post mortem of history helps; but will give the traction.  

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[Roland Steiner]

Things are not that simple, which is why I quote below a longer excerpt from the "Introduction" to Thomas Oberlies' recently published "Pali Grammar" (for the sake of clarity, I will omit the numerous footnotes, references and examples).

Best,
RS

* * *

Thomas Oberlies: Pāli Grammar. The Language of the Canonical Texts of Theravāda Buddhism. Vol. I: Phonology and Morphology. Bristol: The Pali Text Society 2019.
 
 
[p. 9] “1. Middle Indo-Aryan and Pāli. Over time various languages evolved out of (Vedic) Sanskrit, these being collectively referred to as Middle Indo-Aryan. This can be divided into three linguistic, albeit not strictly chronological, stages -- Old, Middle and New Middle Indo-Aryan– covering a period ranging from approximately 500 B.C. to 1000 A.D. Old MIA is represented by Aśokan Prakrit, Ardha-Māgadhī and Pāli. The latter is the language of the texts of the Theravāda, an ancient school of Śravakayāna Buddhism. Related to Vedic Sanskrit on the one hand and to Ardha-Māgadhī, the language of the canon of the Śvetāmbara Jainas, the most archaic Prakrit on the other, Pāli is, together with Ardha-Māgadhī, ‘the most ancient normalization of the koinē gangétique’, the lingua franca used in the Gangetic plains during the second part of the first millennium B.C. This eastern Middle Indic had grown out of the Vedic vernacular of that region [...], which stood beside ‘the younger Vedic language that was in current use with the Brahmins’, its foremost use being in their theological discussions and in the instruction of pupils. The Vedic vernacular (which was by no means uniform) possessed, [p. 10] as far as can be seen, almost all characteristics of later ancient Middle Indo-Aryan which resulted from phonological, morphological and syntactical simplifications [...], disuse of uncommon words and inclusion of new words from various sources [...]. There was a strong influence emanating from it on Vedic Sanskrit. Against the growing influx of vernacular words and forms, which were seen as corruptions (apaśabda), the native Indian Sanskrit grammarians formed a bastion. Based on the spoken language of the educated Brahmins of the time, the foremost of these grammarians, Pāṇini, who came from the north-west of India, described a form of the language current around the early fourth century B.C. [n. 2: Cf. Leumann, Merkmale des Sanskrit als Brahmanensprache und als Kunstsprache. Asiatische Studien 18–19 (1965) 208: “That Panini did not himself insist in his rules on a literary language, but rather took the living language of the Brahmins as his model, is shown by some of his tenets: he speaks of linguistic differences between the East (the Ganges below Patna) and the North (presumably around Taksila); many of these specifications can not be referring to literature, since the phenomena can only be observed in dialogue, in the spoken language, and yet on no account can they belong to Middle Indic”.] After that Sanskrit evolved in a bifurcated form: On the one side was ‘classical' Sanskrit, which remained more or less fixed in the form given to it by Pāṇini; on the other was the ‘Dichtersprache' of the epics and Purāṇas, which admitted a considerable number of newly coined forms borrowed from the popular spoken language. Quite analogous to this poetic language of the Sanskrit epics, the Gangetic Middle Indic lingua franca seems to have been the pro-[p. 11]duct of a long-time use as an ancient literary language of Buddhism and Jainism, which had rejected Sanskrit as the language transmitting their texts. [...].”
 
[p. 14] “Many Pāli words and forms -- especially with their ‘frozen' phonetics’, [...]  -- are relics from such an earlier eastern dialect in which the ‘texts' of early Buddhism were (orally) handed down: [...] When Buddhism moved from the land of its origin into areas further west, it took with it the ancient texts which were composed in this eastern Middle Indic literary language which must have shared many features of the idiom Buddha, who spent most of his life in Bihar, must have spoken and have employed in his sermons [...]. In its new home, these texts were adapted to local western Middle Indic, which bore strong similarities to the language of the Aśokan inscriptions of Girnār. The eastern proto-canonical language [... p. 15] -- akin to the administrative language of the Maurya king Aśoka who likewise did not use Sanskrit for his edicts but an ancient form of Middle lndic [...] -- was, however, when compared with OIA, in many ways further advanced than the western dialects of its time [...]. As a result, the ‘texts' were transformed into a more archaic language (unless the words were taken over unaltered) as Buddhism spread westward. [...].”

[p. 18]  “2. Vedic Sanskrit and Pāli. It is possible to trace a steady development of Sanskrit from the Ṛgveda, the most ancient Sanskrit document, through the later Vedic texts to what is called Middle lndo-Aryan. The grammar was gradually simplified, mostly by eliminating archaic forms and by reducing the rich varieties of nominal and verbal categories. The hymns of the Ṛgveda are composed in a -- deliberately --  archaic form of Sanskrit. The then spoken language was already, it seems certain, far more developed [...]. From it quite a number of features intruded into the hieratic ‘high speech' of the Veda, where a considerable number of words of ‘Prakritic' origin are found. However, this state of affairs characterised not only the main dialect of the Ṛgveda. Though the language of the Ṛgvedic hymns is on the whole remarkably uniform, there are clear indications that it is, in fact, a mixture of dialects which inter-[p. 19]borrowed words and forms. Thus, side by side with the main dialect, which was located in the north-western part of India and in which the hymns were composed throughout [...], there existed a number of closely related ‘Nebenmundarten’, which had developed out of Indo-Iranian independent of the main dialect [...} Moreover, each of these had its own linguistic innovations and archaisms. This situation is also borne out by Pāli. There are features (a.) it shares with the main dialect of the Ṛgveda and there are some (b.) in which it deviates, indeed preserving the older form;  while (c.) agreeing with the popular dialects from which words penetrated into the Ṛgveda and became mixed up with its main dialect, it again (d.) differs from them [...].”
 
[p. 21] “[...] Such morphonological and lexical features betray the fact that Pāli is not a direct continuation of Ṛgvedic Sanskrit; rather it descends from one of the ‘Nebenrnundarten’ [...] of the Ṛvedic main dialect, or at least was closely akin to it. One of the dialects on which Pāli rests seems to have borne affinities with the language of the holy texts of Zarathustrism, the Avesta [...].”
 
[p. 22] “[...] 3. The Vedic vernacular(s) and Pāli. After the time of the Ṛgveda the Vedic vernacular(s) gained ground -- a process which can be traced through the Vedic texts. And from the odd popular forms they contain conclusions can be drawn concerning ‘Vedic Prakrit'. lt tums out that almost all typical characteristics of Middle Indo-Aryan (with the striking exception of the ‘law of mora', [...]) are seen to have arisen long before that language's first documents appear in the 3rd century B.C. [...]”
 
[p. 34] “4. The development of Sanskrit -- The vocabulary. This same state of affairs is also exemplified by the vocabulary of the languages mentioned above. Even within Vedic Sanskrit old words were continuously dropping out of use  [...] Some words which appear in Vedic texts turn up again, after disappearing from the later Sanskrit literary tradition [...], and even occur in modern Indian languages [...]. On the other hand, a number of old [p. 35] words unknown to Classical Sanskritare preserved in MIA (see below, S.). And finally, a number of words of Indo-European origin first appear in the various stages of MIA [...].
 
5. (Post-Vedic I Classical) Sanskrit and Pāli. Pāli goes back to a Vedic vernacular situated most probably (south-)east of Arachosia near the Bolan pass [...]. This vernacular was linguistically more advanced than the hieratic language of the Vedic hymns. As archaisms prove, Pāli is by no means younger than (classical) Sanskrit and hence cannot be derived directly from it, which, for its part, is not directly descended from Vedic Sanskrit: [...].”
 
[p. 42] “[...] 6. Aśokan Prakrit and Pāli. Side by side with the evolution of Sanskrit, the popular vernacular which co-existed with the Vedic ‘high speech' developed into what is called Middle Indo-Aryan. lts rise as a literary language coincides with the foundation of the new religions of Buddhism and Jainism in the middle of the first millennium BCE. The first accurately datable documents of this linguistically developed stage of Indo-Aryan are the inscriptions of King Aśoka, who reigned from 273/267 to 237/231 B.C. They supply a fair picture of the dialectal diversity of Middle lndic in the 3rd century [p. 43] B.C. Delineated by isoglosses three main varieties can be made out:  eastern, western and north-western. Moreover, they permit us to locate Pāli and to check such information as the texts supply. For the Theravāda tradition has always claimed that the language spoken by the Buddha was Māgadhī -- i.e. an eastern language -- and that this language was the same as that used in its canonical texts, a language now called Pāli (a designation which originally meant ‘text' and whose use as the name of a particular language seems not to antedate the 17th century). Indeed we might expect that the language of early Buddhism was essentially an eastern one, current in the Gangetic basin in the 5th century B.C. It should therefore have the same features as eastern Aśokan Prakrit. Pāli, however, as we know it, is basically a language of western lndia, as the edicts of Aśoka [...] clearly show. Some of its salient features it shares with the western edicts, especially that of Ginār, e.g. [...].”
 
[p. 52] “[...] Perusal of the salient features of Vedic vernacular and of Aśokan Prakrit shows, therefore, that Pāli as a MIA language differs from Sanskrit not so much in terms of its time of origin as of its dialectal base. It is a western language whose ancestor was probably situated at the border of ancient Eastern Iran, (south)east of Arachosia, Drangane and Sakastane, presumably not that far from present-day Quetta and the Bolan pass. Interspersed into it, however, are a substantial number of traits of (an) eastern language(s) [...].”
 

[Achyut Karve]

 Dear Vidwans,

How did the evolution of script influence/affect the continuous deterioration of Vedic Sanskrit? 

What were the causes for Vedic Sanskrit to lose their metrical beauty or why subsequent literature could not be composed in Vedic meter?

Surely the shift of composing or writing literature from poetry to prose must have been on account of a shift in phonation of letters of Vedic Sanskrit in the commoners.

Panini's Maheshwar Sutras are the only window through which we can peep into the way ancients phonated words. We cannot reconstruct the way in which the ancients recited the Vedas with the help of what has come down to us in written form nor can we rely on the recitation presently practiced in various pathashalas throught India as there is lack of uniformity in their recitation.  One of the possible reasons for the evolution of various schools of recitation during the time of Patanjali is the lack of a common code of instruction of letters of the Vedic or Sanskrit language  as well as holding a view that the Maheshwar Sutras were solely composed for the sake of abbreviations to be used in the Ashtadhyayi.  It is obvious that the Maheshwar Sutras nay the whole Ashtadhyayi  carries the mark of the way Panini might have been speaking Sanskrit or reciting the Vedas.  The rest is pure speculation however much one may try to bring forth written evidence.

The beauty of Vedic Sanskrit lies in its natural rhythm which was subsequently lost in apabransha languages.  When letters in words go out of tune with natural rhythm they tend to transform a language into a new one over a couple of generations.  

One can refer to my posts on Barakhadi Sutras which are set in rhythm.

The acceptance of the Devnagari Script letters as a standard for instruction of Sanskrit Shiksha by Shishtas is at the root of the continuous changes that started taking place in subsequent languages in India as well as leading to the corruptions that entered into Sanskrit.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Irene Galstian]

So is the problem the specific script or the fact of writing in general?

Thank you,

Irene

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[Bijoy Misra]

Roland,

Statements don't make facts.  Some scientific humility is gravely desired.

In general I am disappointed with the enunciation statements as we see

in religious texts.  I have not studied where these statements arise form. 

"We don't know" or "We believe to be" or "There is likelihood" are possible

statements from an information point of view.  I talk "scholarly" does not

make me a scholar.  Correlation is not science!  People must learn to be

quantitative, appreciate statistics and sampling.  Revolution in Indology

is badly called for!  A good grinding in Mahalanobis or Shannon is a

requirement!  

BM

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[BVK Sastry]

Namaste

 

1.  Misra ji:    I agree with your observation < Revolution in Indology is badly called for!  >

 

2. RS :   I agree with you on the observation < Things are not that simple  > ;  

 

2a)             May I request you to clarify your position on the statement: < Pali has a strong influence on Vedic Sanskrit (Chandas)>  ;  

                                                                                                                       < Pali.... rests with the language of the holy texts of Zarathustism, the Avesta  > . 

                                                                                                                      < Pāli goes back to a Vedic vernacular situated most probably (south-)east of Arachosia near the Bolan pas>

                                                                                                                      < Pāli, however, as we know it, is basically a language of western lndia, as the edicts of Aśoka [...] clearly show.>

 

Inscriptions provide only a very minor percentage of vocabulary of language (spoke, literary, ritual, religion-discourse). Vocabulary in inscription does not help to build the total grammar of language!

 

2b) I would like to  see a separation on    'History of Languages'  in a parallel lane with ' Language -Grammar/ Languages -relation by derivation and influences' debate.

      Indian understanding of Language-relations and modeling  for the two scenarios are different for :

          -  (2a-1) Samskruth: Chandas and Bhashaa  

          -  (2a-2)   Bhashaa - (Prakruts/ Apabrhamsha/ Mleccha/ Desi) are totally out of synch with Western/ indology/ Oriental models.

 

  The western scholars have trimmed and force fitted  (Vedic/ Bharateeya/ Brahmi ) languages history at India  on a hypothesis : Samskruth was not native to India; So is the

  language family of Pali .  

 

  The issue can be resolved only when the Indian model of languages of Brahmi family from Buddha /Mahaveer ( circa 700 BCE) backwards, through Vyasa ( 3100 BCE) and beyond  till Valmiki (circa 6000 BCE) gets studied objectively in the total backdrop of ancient Civilizations, spread of Buddhism from India, and global imprints of Vedic Civilization. Till then, all views as quoted remains ' one more view from a scholar', respectfully to be noted and reviewed. Un-established data as foundation for forceful conclusions can not be a valid logic.  

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

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[Roland Steiner]

> 'one more view from a scholar', respectfully to be noted and
> reviewed. Un-established data [...]

In fact, it is an introductory summary of the current state of
research with a multitude of evidence, examples and references I
skipped for the sake of brevity. Everyone is free to ignore it, but if
one intends to criticize this state of research, one would first have
to study it and try to understand it. This is arduous and takes time,
but it is an indispensable prerequisite for a fruitful discussion.

Regards,
Roland Steiner

[BVK Sastry]

Namaste RS

You seem to miss the point i was addressing. I do understand < Things are
not that simple > ;

If the 'Introductory summary' which is explicit and candid to show the line
of later build up of text detailing, is based on 'DATA-DATE-AXIOMS-
PERSPECTIVES' which have suspect elements, what would motivate one to go for
further details in the text ?

The excerpt provided was marked with highlight to show the 'SUSPECT-
'DATA-DATE-AXIOMS- PERSPECTIVES' on Brahmi Language modeling, history,
Internal connections of languages at Bharath
.
Can you please assure that the book has some illuminating evidence to
address the 'suspect elements' and not a rehash of past views in a new
bottle??


Here below is the basis for my line of thinking.

(Extract from the resource:
https://static.sirimangalo.org/pdf/alwiskaccayana.pdf ( 1863 publication).
(https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/592126.pdf?refreqid=excelsior%3A60acca9c1c
01b51d117484d33c857eb6
<https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/592126.pdf?refreqid=excelsior%3A60acca9c1c
01b51d117484d33c857eb6%20> - JSTOR reference article of 1872)
https://bodhimonastery.org/a-course-in-the-pali-language.html
<https://bodhimonastery.org/a-course-in-the-pali-language.html%20> ;
http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Introduction%20to%20Pali_Warder.pd
f
<http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Introduction%20to%20Pali_Warder.p
df%20> ; http://www.palitext.com/

















Regards
BVK Sastry

-----Original Message-----
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Roland Steiner
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2019 12:24 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Vipassana

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[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Roland,

You are again talking like a religious scholar and not

an objective researcher.  I have been seeing the language

literature for the past twenty years.  They are all built on

premise which do not have analytic foundation.  You may

send me any paper on the origin of  Pali that is analytic

from the first principles.  "It is widely believed" does not

make a scientific statement!

BM 

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Irene,

It is a problem of believing and maintaining that scripts brings permanance to a language.  This is not true.  Permanance comes by transferring speech from one generation to the next without blemish through the word of mouth. It is for this reason that shiksha lies at the foundation of the Vedas.  Later grammarians who differed with the Ashtadhyayi did not give reasons for not concurring with Panini.  Even Patanjali at places cited examples of the then contemporary usages to bring sanctity to his views.  The most glaring is the inclusion of the ayogavaha letters.  We have no other option but to believe that Panini composed the Ashtadhyayi to maintain the sanctity of the Vedas as well as of laukik Sanskrit.  Only then can we say that words are like the Brahman.  In nature too we find this in the form of an individual in a species lending its characteristics to the next generation through the process of procreation.  The next generation is not only endowed with a body like his parents but also with a medium of communication with the members of his species on which the survival of the species depends.  This was and is the intention of Panini to compose the Ashtadhyayi.  Words can get permanance only if the letters in it are permanent to the human race and not to an individual.  

On a lighter vein what would be the answer to the question how did the crows caw centuries ago?  The answer surely is as they caw today.  

The Maheshwar Sutras are just a presentation of all the universal speech forms of the human species.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Irene.

The main issue is whether the sequencing of the letters for teaching the Sanskrit Script also served the purpose of instructing how to phonate letters of the Vedic/Sanskrit language.

It is important to understand that children learn to speak by picking up words and not individual letters of a language.  In order that instruction of letters fall in line with the way children learn a language the individual letters need to be instructed in groups.  This is exactly what Panini did through his Maheshwar Sutras.

However, while designing the script each individual letter was suffixed with each of the vowels to render क काकिकी ...... and so on mechanistically and thereafter they were instructed in the same order.  This to my mind was the main cause behind the deterioration of the Vedic tongue.  The sequence of the plosive consonants (कखगघङ ...)was equally responsible.

To add to it these were then included in the shiksha granthas thus giving them sanctity for instruction.  Thus the model of the script which was imposed on the shiksha is the main cause for Sanskrit losing its pristene form.

Once one is able to distinguish between the need of instructing the script and the instruction of how to phonate (shiksha) Sanskrit will again regain its past form as the following generations have deligently preserved its literature in letter though possibly not in spirit.  

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CALw-kjVve0k%2BVQ-iL%3DCjJRCxYqGrqv0hzgbgbBxGaVo29K3fiA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Irene Galstian]

Thank you for the clarification, Mr Karve. I'll write to you off-list within the next couple of days to get your views on a few things.

Best wishes,

Irene

On Thursday, December 5, 2019 at 3:10:57 AM UTC, Achyut Karve wrote:

Dear Irene.

The main issue is whether the sequencing of the letters for teaching the Sanskrit Script also served the purpose of instructing how to phonate letters of the Vedic/Sanskrit language.

It is important to understand that children learn to speak by picking up words and not individual letters of a language.  In order that instruction of letters fall in line with the way children learn a language the individual letters need to be instructed in groups.  This is exactly what Panini did through his Maheshwar Sutras.

However, while designing the script each individual letter was suffixed with each of the vowels to render क काकिकी ...... and so on mechanistically and thereafter they were instructed in the same order.  This to my mind was the main cause behind the deterioration of the Vedic tongue.  The sequence of the plosive consonants (कखगघङ ...)was equally responsible.

To add to it these were then included in the shiksha granthas thus giving them sanctity for instruction.  Thus the model of the script which was imposed on the shiksha is the main cause for Sanskrit losing its pristene form.

Once one is able to distinguish between the need of instructing the script and the instruction of how to phonate (shiksha) Sanskrit will again regain its past form as the following generations have deligently preserved its literature in letter though possibly not in spirit.  

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

On Thu, 5 Dec 2019 04:29 Bijoy Misra, <misra...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Roland,

You are again talking like a religious scholar and not

an objective researcher.  I have been seeing the language

literature for the past twenty years.  They are all built on

premise which do not have analytic foundation.  You may

send me any paper on the origin of  Pali that is analytic

from the first principles.  "It is widely believed" does not

make a scientific statement!

BM 

email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/20191204182418.Horde.5CLkMMNwvU
Z5KOmR7H-MoXW%40home.staff.uni-marburg.de.

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