उच्चारणदोषाः

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Subrahmanyam Korada

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May 17, 2020, 2:43:19 PM5/17/20
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नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

Patanjali in पस्पशाह्निकम् of महाभाष्यम् enumerates the common defects of pronunciation - उच्चारणदोषाः  of अच् (some of them are mentioned in अमरकोशः - शब्दादिवर्गः) --

वार्तिकम् ---
आकृत्युपदेशात् सिद्धमिति चेत् संवृतादीनां प्रतिषेधः

भाष्यम् --
आकृत्युपदेशात् सिद्धमिति चेत् संवृतदीनां प्रतिषेधो वक्तव्यः ।
के पुनः संवृतादयः ?
संवृतः - कलः -ध्मातः - एणीकृतः - अम्बूकृतः - अर्धकः - ग्रस्तः - निरस्तः - प्रगीतः - उपगीतः - क्ष्विण्णः  - रोमशः --- इति ।
अपर आह --
ग्रस्तं निरस्तमवलम्बितं निर्हतमम्बूकृतं ध्मातमथो विकम्पितम् ।
सण्दष्टमेणीकृतमर्धकं द्रुतं विकीर्णमेताः स्वरदोषभावनाः ॥

अतो’न्ये व्यञ्जनदोषाः ( rest are the defects of हल् )

1, संवृतः -- pronouncing आ etc , that are विवृत-s as संवृत ।

2,कलः -- pronouncing a letter , having a particular स्थानम् , as having born in another स्थानम्  ( श - ष - स )

3.ध्मातः --pronouncing ह्रस्व as दीर्घ ( यो’पाम् पुष्पं वेदा )

4. एणीकृतः -- Is it ओ or औ

5.अम्बूकृतः -- Although clear , heard as if it is pronounced within the mouth .

6.अर्धकः -- Although it is दीर्घ , pronounced as ह्रस्व ।

7.ग्रस्तः -- Pronounced as if tightened at the root of the tongue .

8. निरस्तः -- Pronounced as if cursing (निष्ठुरः)

9. प्रगीतः -- Pronounced as if singing .

10.उपगीतः -- Pronounced as if the letter is influenced by the rhyme of the adjacent letter .

11.क्ष्विण्णः -- Pronounced with shivering .

12.रोमश्ः -- Pronounced profoundly (गांभीर्यम्) - with deep breath .

13.अवलम्बितः -- The letter not separate from the other .

14.निर्हतः --  Pronounced roughly (रूक्षः)

15.संदष्टः --- Pronounced as if  raised (वर्धित इव )

16.विकीर्णः -- Pronounced as intruded into another letter . 

It is difficult to offer an exhaustive list of all defects --- प्रचोदयातु ।

Text reading is prohibited - 

गीती दीर्घी शिरःकम्पी तथा लिखितपाठकः ।
अनर्थज्ञो’ल्पकण्ठश्च  षडेते पाठकाधमाः ॥  पाणिनीयशिक्षा

धन्योस्मि




Dr.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskri,
299 Doyen , Serilingampally, Hyderabad 500 019
Ph:09866110741(M),91-40-23010741(R)
Skype Id: Subrahmanyam Korada

Achyut Karve

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May 18, 2020, 3:48:14 AM5/18/20
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Dear Vidwans,

Why are defects of only vowel phonation stated or talked about and not those of consonants?

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

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विश्वासो वासुकेयः

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May 22, 2020, 2:43:33 AM5/22/20
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* dissuaded

Subrahmanyam Korada

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May 25, 2020, 10:52:40 AM5/25/20
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नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

अच् is important - a हल् cannot be pronounced without the help of अच् --

.... न पुनरन्तरेण अचं व्यञ्जनस्य उच्चारणमपि भवति ।अन्वर्थं खल्वपि निर्वचनम् - स्वयं राजन्ते इति स्वराः , अन्वग्भवति व्यञ्जनम् इति ।
( अन्वग्भवति = अनुगच्छति अज्गुणम् इत्यर्थः) 
                                                                                                          ------- महाभाष्यम् , उच्चैरुदात्तः , नीचैरनुदात्तः , 1/2/29,30

एतेषाम् अपि स्वरवर्णानुपूर्वीज्ञानार्थ उपदेशः कर्तव्यः --

शशः षष इति मा भूत्
पलाशः पलाष इति मा भूत्
मञ्चको मञ्जक इति माभूत्                   ----- महाभाष्यम् , पस्पशाह्निकम्

यत्र उदात्ते कर्तव्ये अनुदात्तं करोति खण्डिकोपाध्यायः तस्मै चपेटां ददाति --- महाभाष्यम्
( खण्डिकाः अथर्ववेदगताः प्रपाठकाः)

यद्यपि बहु नाधीषे तथापि पठ पुत्र व्याकरणम् ।
स्वजनः श्वजनो मा भूत् सकलं शकलं सकृत् शकृत् ॥

Actually pronunciation is a subject that is dealt with by शिक्षा - but according to Patanjali , students   used (पुरा कल्पे)
to study व्याकरणम् after getting trained in शिक्षा / प्रातिशाख्या --

व्याकरणं नामेयम् उत्तरा विद्या । सो’सौ छन्दःशास्त्रेषु अभिनिवीतः उपलब्ध्या अधिगन्तुम्  उत्सहते । -- म भा , तस्यादितः ...., 1-2-32
( छन्दःशास्त्रेषु = प्रातिशाख्यशिक्षादिषु ; अभिनिवीतः = शिक्षितः ; उपलब्ध्या = व्युत्पत्त्या ) -  this is in response to - why Panini did not touch स्थान- प्रयत्न etc.

In अहम् (Assam state) people say - हतायुष्मान् भव ( for शतायुष्मान् भव ) - pl check the veracity .

In Odisha schools they teach like - दन्त्य  / तालव्य स / श ।

In all states many people cannot differentiate - श / ष /स ।

ज्ञानम्  became ग्नानम् -- ग्यानम् ( in Hindi belt ) .

Today students of all states cannot pronounce - ङ / ञ  ( Telugu people pronounce  ङ  as इणि ) .- the teachers themselves do not know how to pronounce .

In deep south they say -- व्यागरणम् - स्फोडवादः ( but I do not know as to why they made ' korada ' - ' korata' - one cannot escape कर्म ? ).

न हि दोषाणां लक्षणमस्ति ? -- महाभाष्यम्
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Madhav Deshpande

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May 25, 2020, 12:01:19 PM5/25/20
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To add a footnote to the comprehensive references given by Professor Korada, I would like to mention that there is a specific text called Dantyoṣṭhyavidhi to teach the distinction between व and ब, as these were confusing to some reciter, perhaps in Eastern India.  The three volumes of Vedic Variants noted by Franklin Edgerton and Murray Emeneau amply attest to the variants found among the various Veda Śākhās, and some of these are probably attributable to regional variation in the pronunciation of Sanskrit.  The Aitareya Āraṇyaka already records a debate on whether the Saṃhitā of the R̥gveda is अणकार and अषकार, or सणकार and सषकार, and concludes that the tradition represented by the author of this Āraṇyaka follows the lineage of Māṇḍūkeya, and that the Saṃhitā should be recited सणकार and सषकार.  But the discussion attests to the historical fact that some reciters were in favor of an अणकार and अषकार recitation of the R̥gveda.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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May 25, 2020, 12:22:43 PM5/25/20
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On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 9:31 PM Madhav Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu> wrote:
To add a footnote to the comprehensive references given by Professor Korada, I would like to mention that there is a specific text called Dantyoṣṭhyavidhi to teach the distinction between व and ब, as these were confusing to some reciter, perhaps in Eastern India.  The three volumes of Vedic Variants noted by Franklin Edgerton and Murray Emeneau amply attest to the variants found among the various Veda Śākhās, and some of these are probably attributable to regional variation in the pronunciation of Sanskrit. 

- लिङ्गपुराणे - एको वेदश्चतुष्पादस् त्रेतास्विह विधीयते । संक्षयाद् आयुषश् चैव व्यस्यते द्वापरेषु सः ॥ १,३९.५७ ॥ ऋषिपुत्रैः पुनर्भेदा भिद्यन्ते दृष्टिविभ्रमैः । मन्त्रब्राह्मण-विन्यासैः स्वर-वर्ण-विपर्ययैः ॥ १,३९.५८ ॥ संहिता ऋग्यजुःसाम्नां संहन्यन्ते मनीषिभिः । सामान्या वैकृताश्चैव द्रष्टृभिस्तैः पृथक्पृथक् ॥ १,३९.५९ ॥
- वायुपुराणे -  संरोधाद् आयुषश् चैव दृश्यते द्वापरेषु च । वेदव्यासैश् चतुर्धा तु व्यस्यते द्वापरादिषु ।। ५८.११ ।। ऋषिपुत्रैः पुनर्वेदा भिद्यन्ते दृष्टिविभ्रमैः। मन्त्रब्राह्मण-विन्यासैः स्वर-वर्ण-विपर्ययैः ।। ५८.१२ ।। संहिता ऋग्यजुःसाम्नां संहन्यन्ते श्रुतर्षिभिः। सामान्याद्वैकृताच्चैव दृष्टिभिन्नैः व्कचित्व्कचित् ।। ५८.१३ ।। ब्राह्मणं कल्पसूत्राणि मन्त्रप्रवचनानि च। अन्ये तु प्रहितास्तीर्थैः केचित्तान् प्रत्यवस्थिताः ।। ५८.१४ ।।
- मत्स्य-पुराणे -  संक्षेपादायुषश्चैव व्यस्यते द्वापरेष्विह  ॥ १४४.१० ॥ वेदश्चैकश्चतुर्धा तु व्यस्यते द्वापरादिषु  । ऋषिपुत्रैः पुनर्वेदा भिद्यन्ते दृष्टिविभ्रमैः  ॥ १४४.११ ॥ ते तु ब्राह्मणविन्यासैः स्वरक्रमविपर्ययैः  । संहृता ऋग्यजुःसाम्नां संहितास्तैर्महर्षिभिः  ॥ १४४.१२ ॥ सामान्याद् वैकृताच् चैव दृष्टिभिन्नैः क्वचित्क्वचित् । ब्राह्मणं कल्पसूत्राणि भाष्य-विद्यास् तथैव च  ॥ १४४.१३ ॥ अन्ये तु प्रस्थितास्तान्वै केचित्तान् प्रत्यवस्थिताः  । द्वापरेषु प्रवर्तन्ते भिन्नार्थैस्तैः स्वदर्शनैः  ॥ १४४.१४ ॥ एकमाध्वर्यवं पूर्वमासीद्द्वैधं तु तत्पुनः  । सामान्यविपरीतार्थैः कृतं शास्त्राकुलं त्विदम्  ॥ १४४.१५ ॥ आध्वर्यवं च प्रस्थानैर्बहुधा व्याकुलीकृतम्  । तथैवाथर्वणां साम्नां विकल्पैः स्वस्य संक्षयैः  ॥ १४४.१६ ॥ व्याकुलो द्वापरेष्वर्थः क्रियते भिन्नदर्शनैः  । द्वापरे संनिवृत्ते ते वेदा नश्यन्ति वै कलौ  ॥ १४४.१७ ॥


 
The Aitareya Āraṇyaka already records a debate on whether the Saṃhitā of the R̥gveda is अणकार and अषकार, or सणकार and सषकार, and concludes that the tradition represented by the author of this Āraṇyaka follows the lineage of Māṇḍūkeya, and that the Saṃhitā should be recited सणकार and सषकार.  But the discussion attests to the historical fact that some reciters were in favor of an अणकार and अषकार recitation of the R̥gveda.


विस्मयजनकम्!

 
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--
Vishvas /विश्वासः

Radhakrishna Warrier

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May 25, 2020, 12:28:14 PM5/25/20
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This is interesting Prof. Deshpande ji.  I presume अणकार is a system of recital that avoids pronouncing ण and अषकार is a system of recital without pronouncing ष.   How can ण and ष be avoided in Sanskrit pronunciation when there are plenty of these sounds in Sanskrit?  The very word Krishna has both these sounds.  In place of ण and ष, what would they pronounce, n and s?  And these debates happened in the ancient days of Aitareya Āraṇyaka?

Regards,
Radhakrishna Warrier

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Madhav Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 9:00 AM
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} उच्चारणदोषाः
 

विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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May 25, 2020, 12:31:41 PM5/25/20
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On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 9:58 PM Radhakrishna Warrier <radwa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
This is interesting Prof. Deshpande ji.  I presume अणकार is a system of recital that avoids pronouncing ण and अषकार is a system of recital without pronouncing ष.   How can ण and ष be avoided in Sanskrit pronunciation when there are plenty of these sounds in Sanskrit?  The very word Krishna has both these sounds.  In place of ण and ष, what would they pronounce, n and s?  And these debates happened in the ancient days of Aitareya Āraṇyaka?

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Madhav Deshpande

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May 25, 2020, 12:54:20 PM5/25/20
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Dear Vishvas Ji,

     Thanks for these Purāṇa references.  They show a wide awareness of this phenomenon among the Veda Śākhās, their regionalization and the possible influence of local languages on the pronunciation of the reciters.  One should be aware of this, but I believe that it is in some sense unavoidable.  I have noticed this in the US, where the Indian American children born and brought up in the environment of American English pronounce their Indian names that are sometimes incomprehensible to the first generation immigrants like me.  We were at a store where the salesperson was a young Indian American man.  I asked him what his name was, and he said it was वीकस्.  That didn't make any sense to me, so he showed me his badge where the name was given in English as "Vikas".  I would have expected him to pronounce it as "vikās", but for him his name was "vīkas." My grand-daughter's name is Meghna (मेघना), but she cannot pronounce घ, and so she and her American classmates pronounce her name as मेग्ना.  Of course, my American interlocutors cannot pronounce the difference between द and ड in my name देशपांडे, and my name is pronounced as a combination of English "dish-pan-day."  That is the best approximation for an American English speaker.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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Radhakrishna Warrier

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May 25, 2020, 1:26:09 PM5/25/20
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This is also quite interesting.  I have noticed this with 2nd generation Indians in Canada and the US.  My 3 and a half year old grandson speaks three languages,   his mother's language Kannada, his father's language Malayalam, and English that he uses at his daycare in eastern Canada.  He pronounces Kannada and Malayalam words in the normal way but when he introduces English words in these languages, he pronounces these words exactly as the native English speakers would.  When he says "car" he says khāẓ (ẓ ഴ ழ is a glide), and not kār with an unaspirated ‘k’ in the beginning and a trilling r at the end as most first generation Indians would say.   But interestingly he still maintains the correct accent when speaking Kannada or Malayalam.  He says “maṇṇu” (soil) when speaking to his mother but changes it to “maṇṇŭ” (with a samvṛta ukāra at the end) when speaking to his father.  He used to speak four languages, including French, when his parents lived in Montreal. After they relocated to eastern Canada, he forgot French.

Regards,
Radhakrishna Warrier
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 9:53 AM

To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} उच्चारणदोषाः
 

Achyut Karve

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May 25, 2020, 3:29:49 PM5/25/20
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Dear Vidwans,

A thought -

Can we describe the difference between a vowel and a consonant as that being between ,चेष्टा and मुद्रा of the आस्य.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

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Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan

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May 25, 2020, 9:06:06 PM5/25/20
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On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 10:52 AM Subrahmanyam Korada <kora...@gmail.com> wrote:
नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

अच् is important - a हल् cannot be pronounced without the help of अच् --

.... न पुनरन्तरेण अचं व्यञ्जनस्य उच्चारणमपि भवति ।अन्वर्थं खल्वपि निर्वचनम् - स्वयं राजन्ते इति स्वराः , अन्वग्भवति व्यञ्जनम् इति ।
( अन्वग्भवति = अनुगच्छति अज्गुणम् इत्यर्थः) 
                                                                                                          ------- महाभाष्यम् , उच्चैरुदात्तः , नीचैरनुदात्तः , 1/2/29,30

एतेषाम् अपि स्वरवर्णानुपूर्वीज्ञानार्थ उपदेशः कर्तव्यः --

शशः षष इति मा भूत्
पलाशः पलाष इति मा भूत्
मञ्चको मञ्जक इति माभूत्                   ----- महाभाष्यम् , पस्पशाह्निकम्

यत्र उदात्ते कर्तव्ये अनुदात्तं करोति खण्डिकोपाध्यायः तस्मै चपेटां ददाति --- महाभाष्यम्
( खण्डिकाः अथर्ववेदगताः प्रपाठकाः)

यद्यपि बहु नाधीषे तथापि पठ पुत्र व्याकरणम् ।
स्वजनः श्वजनो मा भूत् सकलं शकलं सकृत् शकृत् ॥

Actually pronunciation is a subject that is dealt with by शिक्षा - but according to Patanjali , students   used (पुरा कल्पे)
to study व्याकरणम् after getting trained in शिक्षा / प्रातिशाख्या --

व्याकरणं नामेयम् उत्तरा विद्या । सो’सौ छन्दःशास्त्रेषु अभिनिवीतः उपलब्ध्या अधिगन्तुम्  उत्सहते । -- म भा , तस्यादितः ...., 1-2-32
( छन्दःशास्त्रेषु = प्रातिशाख्यशिक्षादिषु ; अभिनिवीतः = शिक्षितः ; उपलब्ध्या = व्युत्पत्त्या ) -  this is in response to - why Panini did not touch स्थान- प्रयत्न etc.

In अहम् (Assam state) people say - हतायुष्मान् भव ( for शतायुष्मान् भव ) - pl check the veracity .

In Odisha schools they teach like - दन्त्य  / तालव्य स / श ।

In all states many people cannot differentiate - श / ष /स ।

ज्ञानम्  became ग्नानम् -- ग्यानम् ( in Hindi belt ) .

Today students of all states cannot pronounce - ङ / ञ  ( Telugu people pronounce  ङ  as इणि ) .- the teachers themselves do not know how to pronounce .


Thank you so much for the information Prof. Subrahmanyam. With regard to the nasals I would like to point out that Malayalees tend to have perfect pronunciation. My wife is nominally Tamil, but their family have been in Kerala for a few generations. I have noticed that when they say i~nchi (ginger) they have a perfect ~na-kaara unlike Tamils who are somewhere in between a na-kaara and a ~na-kaara. By they I mean Malayalees in general.

Ramakrishnan 

Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan

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May 25, 2020, 9:18:32 PM5/25/20
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Another pet peeve of mine is mispronouncing the vowel e with the antastha as ye. As in reciting the popular yajur brAhmaNa sentence ya evam veda as ya yevam veda. Or jyoti as joti. Very common among Tamils.

Ramakrishnan 

Radhakrishna Warrier

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May 25, 2020, 11:11:03 PM5/25/20
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It would be interesting to examine if meanings change in Vedic Sanskrit when dental sounds change to retroflex.
​
See how meanings change in Malayalam as the sound changes from retroflex to alveolar and to dental:​
​
Kuṭṭi (retroflex ṭ) = child​
Kuṯṯi (alveolar ṯ) = a stake, a bolt etc.​
Kutti (dental t) = past tense of kuttŭ meaning stabbed, pricked, etc.​
​
Paṇi (retroflex ṇ) = work​
Paṉi (alveolar ṉ) = fever, dew​

Regards,
Radhakrishna Warrier

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Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 9:28 AM

Shashi Joshi

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May 25, 2020, 11:34:20 PM5/25/20
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Why just Vedic Sanskrit.

ततः , तटः
अष्ट , अस्त
अनिट् , अनित्

And if take other languages in the mix as well:
ठाठ, थाठ
कुट्टी , कुत्ती


Thanks,
~ Shashi


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Madhav Deshpande

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May 25, 2020, 11:45:07 PM5/25/20
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     From my information based on secondary sources, Indo-Aryan in the north-eastern parts of India don't have true retroflexes, and so Sanskrit retroflexes get pronounced as alveolars, and that reduces the distance betweenhen these sounds and dentals, and that increases the chances of dental/alveolar variation.  Perhaps, Bijoy Ji or someone knows more details of this phenomenon. Marathi has generally lost the distinction between श/ष, and this survives only in written form, and in the pronunciation of an exceptionally few careful people.
     I remember an incident from my student days in Philadelphia.  An American classmate of mine was telling me that he found a goddess murti in the museum and this is the goddess of six rupees.  I was wondering what this goddess of six rupees could be.  He showed me the inscription on the murti, and it said शतरूपा देवी.  My American friend had difficulty orally distinguishing between षट्, शत, and रूप at first instinct became "rupees."
    The same thing happened at a meeting of the American Oriental Society.  A scholar of Buddhism, David Seyfort Ruegg, was reading a paper on the Buddhist notion of तथता.  In his pronunciation, the distinction of त and थ was lost and both became "t" in American English.  So, every sentence he was reading became "tatata."  I remember that Professor Cardona, who was sitting next to me, was so irritated at this that he told me: "If he says "tatata" once more, I am going to get up and leave."  With the next utterance of "tatata," Cardona got up and left the room.
     Best,

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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May 25, 2020, 11:47:47 PM5/25/20
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On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 8:41 AM Radhakrishna Warrier <radwa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
It would be interesting to examine if meanings change in Vedic Sanskrit when dental sounds change to retroflex.
See how meanings change in Malayalam as the sound changes from retroflex to alveolar and to dental:
Kuṭṭi (retroflex ṭ) = child
Kuṯṯi (alveolar ṯ) = a stake, a bolt etc.
Kutti (dental t) = past tense of kuttŭ meaning stabbed, pricked, etc.
Paṇi (retroflex ṇ) = work
Paṉi (alveolar ṉ) = fever, dew

How do you write alveolar ṯ and alveolar ṉ  in maLayaLam script? 


 
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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May 25, 2020, 11:53:47 PM5/25/20
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On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 9:17 AM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 8:41 AM Radhakrishna Warrier <radwa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
It would be interesting to examine if meanings change in Vedic Sanskrit when dental sounds change to retroflex.
See how meanings change in Malayalam as the sound changes from retroflex to alveolar and to dental:
Kuṭṭi (retroflex ṭ) = child
Kuṯṯi (alveolar ṯ) = a stake, a bolt etc.
Kutti (dental t) = past tense of kuttŭ meaning stabbed, pricked, etc.
Paṇi (retroflex ṇ) = work
Paṉi (alveolar ṉ) = fever, dew

How do you write alveolar ṯ and alveolar ṉ  in maLayaLam script? 

The last and first of this - https://i.imgur.com/bcYUI4j.png  I suppose?

Radhakrishna Warrier

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May 25, 2020, 11:59:57 PM5/25/20
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"How do you write alveolar ṯ and alveolar ṉ  in maLayaLam script?"

Unvoiced alveolar ṯ occurs only in the geminate (double) form and is represented as double hard ṟṟ (റ്റ).

Eg: കാറ്റു് = kāṟṟŭ = kāṯṯŭ

Alveolar ṉ existed as a character distinct from dental n till about the second half of the 1800s, but was discarded under the logic that a Malayali can easily tell when to pronounce n as dental or as alveolar.  In my personal opinion, that was not a wise move, like the discarding of the samvrta ukaara in the 1970 - 1980 period.

Regards,
Radhakrishna Warrier


From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 8:47 PM
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K S Kannan

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May 26, 2020, 12:04:33 AM5/26/20
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This has some resemblance with the 6-Rupee episode cited by Prof. Deshpande.
Many Hindi-speaking people miss the short a in many long words
such as rAja pronounced as rAj under some circumstances.

Something similar led to a different interpretation altogether.
It was stated that kings have four eyes!
And why?
Because the statement that kings, said to have spies as their eyes,
was now spoken of having four eyes. The problem was with
pronouncing the middle word lopping off the a-ending:
rAjAnaH cAra-cakShuShaH.
cAra ("spy"), mixed up with cAr ("four" in Hindi)!

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--
Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Member, Academic Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthana.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

Nagaraj Paturi

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May 26, 2020, 12:07:00 AM5/26/20
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> It would be interesting to examine if meanings change in Vedic Sanskrit when dental sounds change to retroflex.  

------ if two phones (sounds in their minimum form) cause two different meanings, what you say by saying "meanings change" , then such meaning changing phonetic difference is called phonemic difference. The two meaningwise significant /distinct phones are called phonemes. 

So your question, in technical language translates as 

" are dental and retroflex versions of a consonant are allophones of each other or two different phonemes in Sanskrit?" 

To decide this, one of the methods used is minimal pairs.  

Pairs like 

ततः , तटः
अष्ट , अस्त

mentioned by Sri Shashi Jshi-ji are called minimal pairs. They are called so because members of each pair differ only in one phone. Because the meanings of the two members of the pair are different, the difference causing phones in the pair are decided as two different phonemes in the language. For example,
 ततः , तटः
अष्ट , अस्त
help to know that 

त्,  ट् are two different phonemes in Sanskrit. 

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--
Nagaraj Paturi
 
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
 
 
 

Radhakrishna Warrier

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May 26, 2020, 12:07:42 AM5/26/20
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"The last and first of this - https://i.imgur.com/bcYUI4j.png  I suppose?"

Yes, the first and the last in that list.  However, these characters are not used in print now.  These were discarded in the late 1800s, unfortunately.  But these are very distinct sounds for the Malayali.  Mispronunciation of the dental n as alveolar or vice versa in Malayalam is immediately recognized by Malayali as a foreign accent.  Same is the case with alveolar t.
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Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 8:59 PM

Nagaraj Paturi

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May 26, 2020, 12:29:33 AM5/26/20
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Thumb rule for script symbol formation for any language is 

different script symbols for different phonemes meaning difference causing phones/sounds in that language

same script symbol for different mutual allophones. 

If reason given for dropping a script symbol is that the speakers can know its pronunciation from the context, it means that those who dropped the symbol considered that the sound represented by the symbol is just an allophone of another phone/sound and not an independent phoneme. 

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shankara

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May 26, 2020, 12:34:06 AM5/26/20
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Namaste,

Once while I was traveling by train from Kerala to Mumbai, a passenger who knew only Tamil, asked me what is 'cold water' called in Hindi. I told him it is ठण्डा पानी.

He was surprised, 'It is our name of our God'. I too was surprised to hear this. When I asked him which God, he said 'Murugan'. To his ears ठण्डा पानी was same as दण्डपाणी.

regards
shankara


Radhakrishna Warrier

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May 26, 2020, 12:39:33 AM5/26/20
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Reminds me of a story I heard a long time ago. Could be real or fictional.

One Mr. Ramaswamy invited his Sardarji friend to lunch.  When they were seated at the dinner table, Ramaswamy told the Sardarji "Gaanaa gaao".  And the Sardarji started singing in raaga Gardabha.

What Ramaswamy intended to tell the Sardarji was "Khaanaa khaao". 🙂 
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Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 9:33 PM
To: bvparishat <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>

K S Kannan

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May 26, 2020, 12:40:59 AM5/26/20
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But you can't beat Tamilians
converting Vishnu's name into Siva's name :
शार्ङ्गपाणि mispronunced/miswritten as सारङ्गपाणि !


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K S Kannan

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May 26, 2020, 12:43:29 AM5/26/20
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A Bengali invited his friends for doing bhajan.
His pronunciation made them take it as invitation for bhojan!
Poor fellows, they went prepared for a dinner!

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K S Kannan

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May 26, 2020, 12:45:57 AM5/26/20
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Rather than remain as mute witnesses to the language "deterioration" happening
in terms of loss of sounds/scripts, or mix-ups and mispronunciations,
institutions for language studies like CIIL,Mysore/RSS, Delhi/others
should take up projects to cover the entire spectrum of Indian pronunciation
covering all languages/dialects etc., and more importantly,
disseminating this knowledge through on-line media
so that anybody can watch anytime and learn.

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Madhav Deshpande

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May 26, 2020, 1:13:29 AM5/26/20
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While we are telling language jokes, I have heard this one:  A Bengali went to visit the queen of England.  She said: "Good Morning."  He responded: "Shame to you!"

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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K S Kannan

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May 26, 2020, 1:21:55 AM5/26/20
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उष्ट्रे लुम्पति टं वा रं वा
तस्मै दत्ता विकट-नितम्बा !
So she can say either उष्र or उष्ट only!

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Nagaraj Paturi

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May 26, 2020, 1:31:29 AM5/26/20
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In a Telugu book called Bhaaratee Nirukti, I think, I remember to have read an article discussing pronunciation variation in the recitation of Veda mantras across various regions of India. It can not be as good as a well done research. But observations from memory.  

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K S Kannan

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May 26, 2020, 1:52:08 AM5/26/20
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जोज्ञेन जोज्ञोमजोजोन्तो देवा ः !
- is purusha-sUkta
(=paruSha-durukta?)

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shankara

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May 26, 2020, 2:32:32 AM5/26/20
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Sir,

Could not fully undestand. Please explain the 2nd line, तस्मै दत्ता विकट-नितम्बा.

regards
shankara


K S Kannan

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May 26, 2020, 3:01:41 AM5/26/20
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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May 26, 2020, 3:20:33 AM5/26/20
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Reminded of the verse (recounted here to the same people in a different thread)
द्राविडा वाङ्गतुल्याश्च वाङ्गा द्राविडसन्निभाः।
तयोरुच्चारितं को वा तदन्यो वेत्ति भूतले॥

shankara

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May 26, 2020, 3:48:18 AM5/26/20
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Sir,

I had not heard this story. Thanks for sharing the link.

regards
shankara


venkat veeraraghavan

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May 26, 2020, 10:52:00 AM5/26/20
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This cross pronounciation of sa and sha is embarrassingly common among Tam Brahms I am sad to say.

Many even the great MS amma uses "i(sh)ai" instead of "isai"

Unfortunately her great grand-daughter has continued the same tradition of mis-pronunciation.





On Tuesday, May 26, 2020 at 10:10:59 AM UTC+5:30, ks.kannan.2000 wrote:
But you can't beat Tamilians
converting Vishnu's name into Siva's name :
शार्ङ्गपाणि mispronunced/miswritten as सारङ्गपाणि !


On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 10:04 AM 'shankara' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Namaste,

Once while I was traveling by train from Kerala to Mumbai, a passenger who knew only Tamil, asked me what is 'cold water' called in Hindi. I told him it is ठण्डा पानी.

He was surprised, 'It is our name of our God'. I too was surprised to hear this. When I asked him which God, he said 'Murugan'. To his ears ठण्डा पानी was same as दण्डपाणी.

regards
shankara


On Tuesday, 26 May, 2020, 9:34:37 am IST, K S Kannan <ks.kan...@gmail.com> wrote:


This has some resemblance with the 6-Rupee episode cited by Prof. Deshpande.
Many Hindi-speaking people miss the short a in many long words
such as rAja pronounced as rAj under some circumstances.

Something similar led to a different interpretation altogether.
It was stated that kings have four eyes!
And why?
Because the statement that kings, said to have spies as their eyes,
was now spoken of having four eyes. The problem was with
pronouncing the middle word lopping off the a-ending:
rAjAnaH cAra-cakShuShaH.
cAra ("spy"), mixed up with cAr ("four" in Hindi)!

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Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Member, Academic Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthana.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

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venkat veeraraghavan

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May 26, 2020, 10:57:10 AM5/26/20
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Dr. Deshpande:

This joke of yours involving the queen of England reminds me of a risque joke involving Gandhi and the queen.
I am unsure if it would be appropriate for this forum
;-)


On Tuesday, May 26, 2020 at 10:43:29 AM UTC+5:30, Madhav Deshpande wrote:
While we are telling language jokes, I have heard this one:  A Bengali went to visit the queen of England.  She said: "Good Morning."  He responded: "Shame to you!"

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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venkat veeraraghavan

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May 26, 2020, 11:08:33 AM5/26/20
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Oh God dont get me started on that!

I am sick of correcting people that it is airtel not yairtel

But ofcourse the problem is more serious when it comes to veda patha.
Maybe this is why loukika bhasha and the lack of awareness people have when using the same results in ruining veda adhyayana as well.

I heard somewhere people spend 12-13 hours per day being distracted and this makes them highly skilled in this field and ruins even what they take up as a discipline.
The only solution is to forcibly bring awareness back into every aspect of life and not just what we consider as "discipline"
This is where the yoga aspect of veda is completely ignored.


On Tuesday, May 26, 2020 at 6:48:32 AM UTC+5:30, Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan wrote:
Another pet peeve of mine is mispronouncing the vowel e with the antastha as ye. As in reciting the popular yajur brAhmaNa sentence ya evam veda as ya yevam veda. Or jyoti as joti. Very common among Tamils.

Ramakrishnan 

G S S Murthy

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May 26, 2020, 11:24:08 AM5/26/20
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As to mispronouncing TP Kailasam's joke takes the cake:
The railway Traffic Manager was travelling on the Hassan-Bangalore line in his saloon. The porter at Hassan was shouting "aasana,aasana". And he heard the porter at Arsikere  shouting "harasikere, harasikere". The officer had a brain wave and issued transfer orders to the two porters; they would interchange their places of posting. In his next tour on the same line he was crestfallen to hear the new Arsikere porter shouting "Harasikere" and the new porter at Hassan shouting "Aasana, Aasana". 
Thanks and regards,
Murthy

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K S Kannan

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May 26, 2020, 11:29:27 AM5/26/20
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The fuller text is actually much more hilarious.
But it remains untranslatable with its abundance of a/ha interchanges!

And this complaint of non/improper pronunciation of the h-sound
obtains in ancient Greece too!

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Madhav Deshpande

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May 26, 2020, 11:52:18 AM5/26/20
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You must have heard: येवं सततयुक्ता ये, with greater anuprāsa than what Vyāsa could achieve!

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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Radhakrishna Warrier

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May 26, 2020, 1:16:08 PM5/26/20
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I have never heard MS mispronouncing Sanskrit ś, ṣ and s (श, ष, स).  It is a different matter when it comes to Tamil. Classical Tamil has only one character (ச) to represent c, ś and s and there is no ṣ in Tamil.  In the distant past, initial c was pronounced as c, and intervocalic c was pronounced either as ś or as s.  Slowly, initial c also began to be pronounced as either ś or s.  So, in Tamil, ś and s are allophones and I don’t think there is any right or wrong in pronouncing it either as ś or s.  I suspect ś to be more ancient than the s pronunciation.  Brahmins and “higher” castes normally use the ś pronunciation.
Regarding the pronunciation of ē as yē, it seems to me that in modern Tamil, more than 90% people are unable to pronounce pure vowels e and o.  I hear most Tamils pronouncing the question word ēṉ (ஏன் = why) as yēṉ (யேன்).  Same is the case with vowel ‘o’.  Even the simple Om is pronounced like Wōm.​
​
Some Kannadigas also do this.  Erstwhile kings of Mysore, the Wodeyars are actually Odeyar (cognate with Malayalam / Tamil ഉടയർ / உடையர்).  But most Kannadigas pronounce it as Wodeyar and spell in English as Wodeyar.

Regards,
Radhakrishna Warrier
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Achyut Karve

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May 26, 2020, 1:27:45 PM5/26/20
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Dear Vidwans,

What is the use of fault finding?  How far shikshas and pratishakhyas address the problem so that these mis-pronunciations can be remedied?

Imagine what would have happened if doctors would just have diagnosed a disease in a patient and were incapable of offering a remedy?  People go to a doctor seeking remedy not merely a diagnosis. 

However as far as defects of speech are concerned the patient does not realise he is sick and hence does not seek remedy.  I think that is the reason why Patanjali says people utter words in order to convey meaning.  He should have added, it is so because the speaker  is not concerned/interested to know whether  the intended message is passed or not.  

Bhartruhari therefore says that the speaker and the listener are equal partners in a communication.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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May 27, 2020, 12:10:54 AM5/27/20
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On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 9:29 AM Radhakrishna Warrier <radwa...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 
In my personal opinion, that was not a wise move, like the discarding of the samvrta ukaara in the 1970 - 1980 period.

What did this saMvRta ukAra look like? When was it adapted? Do you see it in https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0D00.pdf ?

विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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May 27, 2020, 12:17:38 AM5/27/20
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्, Narayan Prasad
Also in Hindi, is written as हैं though pronounced as हॆँ (similar with मैं). <-- Is this accurate? (+shrI nArAyaN)

Radhakrishna Warrier

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May 27, 2020, 1:28:46 AM5/27/20
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The saṃvṛta ukāram is a short vowel, that can be described in English as a schwa at the end of words.  Dravidian languages do not like to end words in consonants, i.e., as halanta, unless the final consonants are any of the nasal consonants or r, l, or ḷ.  The vowel ‘u’ is a very common word final vowel.  When foreign words are adopted into the language, a final u is added to the words if there is a word final consonant.  So, Sanskrit vāk becomes vākku.  In Malayalam and Tamil, this ancient word final hrasva ukāra evolved into the saṃvṛta ukāram. Vākku became vākkŭ.  Bonafide Dravidian words also underwent this evolution.  Examples nāḍŭ (country), kāḍŭ forest).  

Before the 1980’s this saṃvṛta ukāram was shown in writing by placing the halant symbol (“chandrakkala” in Malayalam) over the consonant+u character.  It looks like this:
വാക്ക്  वाक्क्  Vākk - halanta​
വാക്കു  वाक्कु Vākku – hrasva ukāra​
വാക്കു് वाक्कॅ Vākkŭ - saṃvṛta ukāra​

As a result of the script reform of the 1970=80, the saṃvṛta ukāram was dropped.  It was decided to write വാക്കു് (Vākkŭ) as വാക്ക്  (Vākk) under the assumption that Malayali would anyway read it as വാക്കു് (Vākkŭ).​
​
The saṃvṛta ukāram is not in the chart you forwarded.​
Instead, the chart has the following entry:​

Virama ​
0D4D ് MALAYALAM SIGN VIRAMA ​
= candrakkala (the preferred name) ​
= vowel half-u​

The last, “vowel half-u” is the saṃvṛta ukāram.  But it is equated to the virāma, or the halanta symbol chandrakkala (്).​

Regards,​
Radhakrishna Warrier​

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 9:10 PM

To: bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} उच्चारणदोषाः
 


On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 9:29 AM Radhakrishna Warrier <radwa...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 
In my personal opinion, that was not a wise move, like the discarding of the samvrta ukaara in the 1970 - 1980 period.

What did this saMvRta ukAra look like? When was it adapted? Do you see it in https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0D00.pdf ?

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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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May 27, 2020, 1:33:50 AM5/27/20
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On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 10:58 AM Radhakrishna Warrier <radwa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
The saṃvṛta ukāram is a short vowel, that can be described in English as a schwa at the end of words.  Dravidian languages do not like to end words in consonants, i.e., as halanta, unless the final consonants are any of the nasal consonants or r, l, or ḷ.  The vowel ‘u’ is a very common word final vowel.  When foreign words are adopted into the language, a final u is added to the words if there is a word final consonant.  So, Sanskrit vāk becomes vākku.  In Malayalam and Tamil, this ancient word final hrasva ukāra evolved into the saṃvṛta ukāram. Vākku became vākkŭ.  Bonafide Dravidian words also underwent this evolution.  Examples nāḍŭ (country), kāḍŭ forest).  

Before the 1980’s this saṃvṛta ukāram was shown in writing by placing the halant symbol (“chandrakkala” in Malayalam) over the consonant+u character.  It looks like this:
വാക്ക്  वाक्क्  Vākk - halanta
വാക്കു  वाक्कु Vākku – hrasva ukāra
വാക്കു് वाक्कॅ Vākkŭ - saṃvṛta ukāra

As a result of the script reform of the 1970=80, the saṃvṛta ukāram was dropped.  It was decided to write വാക്കു് (Vākkŭ) as വാക്ക്  (Vākk) under the assumption that Malayali would anyway read it as വാക്കു് (Vākkŭ).

Thanks!


What other things happened during this "reform" ? :-) Looks like Mallus were pioneers of such degenerate trends!


 
The saṃvṛta ukāram is not in the chart you forwarded.
Instead, the chart has the following entry:

Virama
0D4D ് MALAYALAM SIGN VIRAMA
= candrakkala (the preferred name)
= vowel half-u

The last, “vowel half-u” is the saṃvṛta ukāram.  But it is equated to the virāma, or the halanta symbol chandrakkala (്).

Regards,
Radhakrishna Warrier

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 9:10 PM
To: bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} उच्चारणदोषाः
 


On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 9:29 AM Radhakrishna Warrier <radwa...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 
In my personal opinion, that was not a wise move, like the discarding of the samvrta ukaara in the 1970 - 1980 period.

What did this saMvRta ukAra look like? When was it adapted? Do you see it in https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0D00.pdf ?

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K S Kannan

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May 27, 2020, 2:08:26 AM5/27/20
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How can you blame Malayalam linguists
when Kannada linguists are eager and zealous to seize that title
- beating all rivals, for example, by claiming that
the vowel R is a great burden to students,
and therefore must be stripped from the Kannada alphabets.

(Their argument is that its use is "only in Sanskrit words"
even though they use kRShi regularly.
Poor fellows, they don't have a non-Sanskrit word for even the varNa-mAlA).

So intense is their hatred for Sanskrit,
and their frequent declaration, unprovoked, that Sanskrit is dead,
that Vidwan Ranganatha Sharma had to countertaunt them once with something like
"Is Kannada then a necrophage (=शव-भक्षक)?".

While recent Kannada dictionaries are trying to reduce Sanskrit words,
famous dictionaries have around 80% Sanskrit words.

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Nagaraj Paturi

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May 27, 2020, 3:07:48 AM5/27/20
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Prof. Kannan, 

Telugu 'script reformers' did not lag behind. 


I posted saying,

"---------- The 'script reformation movement'  in Telugu was not quiet. As with any other 'movement' born out of 'modern' jnaanodaya , to be more precise, jnaanodayapaaravas'ya born out of modern 'education', there was a huge drumming and hungaamaa about it, expressions of Indian white men's burden, lamentations/pity about lack of such an awareness among traditional scholars, public at large not being as excited as required about the emergency of the reformations etc. 

It was not on the lines of  "brilliant idea  to impose ‘ uniform simplified scripting for many (south) Indian languages" . I don't remember anyone arguing for reforms on these lines. It was on the lines of 'simplification' removing the vestigial elements in the script which are no longer required for a new changed modern 'colloquial' language that acquired the position of the  standard language. Removal of script symbols  ఋ (r̥) both independent and mātrā aspects , ఱ ( originally retroflex r, called śakaṭa rēpha) , longer ఋ (r̥), dantya ch and j etc., were all proposed on the basis of the argument that they were no longer pronounced the way they were supposed to be.

What is interesting is recently during a workshop organized by CIIL at Telugu Akademi , for preparing style manual for Telugu, (discussed in an older thread) a highly accomplished modern linguist of Telugu who was one of the script reformers responsible for the removal of all these symbols , regretted his young days activity and said all those symbols need to get reintroduced. What is more, he insisted that what was called as valapala gilaka ( which looked something like devanagari symbol for 9 and used to denote initial r of a cluster but placed after the symbol for the syllable with the next consonant to r and the vowel of the cluster syllable (e.g., r of the र्ति ) ) must be introduced. His argument in favour of the restoration was that the Telugu children of the present generation should be facilitated to read the old prints/publications of classical Telugu  literature and should be made to think of the history of  the sounds represented by those symbols. I asked him whether it was not too late as the damage is already done to an irreparable extent. He said no good work is too late. With a strong will and effort it should be possible even now. I was pleasantly astounded.

News paper publishers were also responsible in the implementation of this 'progressive reform' born out of the feeling of Indian white man's burden.

You were right in guessing that these messiahs were in scholar-administrator roles at that time.  "

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venkat veeraraghavan

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May 27, 2020, 3:16:53 AM5/27/20
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Dear Shri Paturi Garu, Dr. Kannan:

Granted there are deficiencies in the way our scripts evolved.

Isnt there something influential people such as yourselves could do so that the next generation of students do not suffer the same confusion?

Regards,

Venkat

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Nagaraj Paturi

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May 27, 2020, 3:34:38 AM5/27/20
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Yes. But more than non-IT people like me, some very good IT script related coders have been doing good work. It is because of them that I am now able to type s'akaTa  repha  ఱ in Telugu. A lot more needs to be done. I am trying to take the help of some of my  students who are IT experts. 

Elementary script teaching level syllabus framers in the government need to be properly informed about this. I have been trying. 

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venkat veeraraghavan

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May 27, 2020, 3:43:34 AM5/27/20
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Dear Shri Paturi Garu:-

It is my frequent observation that institutions with widespread media coverage tend to be heard more than individuals. The govt is afterall there to be seen to be doing work. 

 It might be a good idea for you to buddy up with people like Dr. Kannan and use the entrepreneurial strategy of generating buzz:
1. Publish Media like books / videos 
2. Editorials in papers (so that people have the awareness)
3. Interviews

When you do the above 3 it generates its own synergistic critical mass of momentum that helps get the educationists in the government take notice.
Unfortunately even for legitimate issues one has to "kick up a fuss" and generate hungama in order to get the people to take action.

Regards,

Venkat

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K S Kannan

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May 27, 2020, 4:02:14 AM5/27/20
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In the last interview he gave to a famous Kannada TVChannel,
Dr HMNayak (1931-2000), Professor, Mysore Uni.,
regretted two things in his life
- that he did not learn Sanskrit, and
- that he sought and fought to remove Sanskrit from the syllabus of Kannada MA.
The consequence of the accomplishment of the latter was that
there were hardly any scholars left in the universities in Karnataka
who could indeed properly read, much less teach, a haLagannaDa text!

Too late to regret!

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:46 PM venkat veeraraghavan <vvenk...@gmail.com> wrote:
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Irene Galstian

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May 27, 2020, 4:16:15 AM5/27/20
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I'm surprised at the tendency of certain Indian linguists to advocate excising sounds from their own languages, but I struggle to see that as colonial baggage. You see, two centuries of forced servitude would potentially account for inertia, but what about destructive initiative? My guess is that due to economic incentives that prioritised English, Indians were being dissuaded from learning their own languages well, many not having been exposed to the rich sound of the poetry in these languages. Possibly this is why the feeling came that certain sounds are disposable. As for the desire to eliminate what's seen as disposable, that's utilitarian approach, although whether it's borrowed or innate is hard to say, since such tendencies are present in all societies.
It's no use lamenting what's been if that all one does. What to do now needs to be addressed. Even today, knowing English is economically advantageous. So shouldn't those in charge make English optional in schools, and make thorough study of mother tongues (including prolonged exposure to literature) and Sanskrit obligatory subjects? If it's true that people's habits are already skewed in favour of economic gains, people will still learn English, that's the least of the worries. Things being as they are, trying to turn people's attention towards their own literature and culture is somewhat like trying to cast a blind actor in the role of Michelangelo: it may not look 100% convincing immediately, but at least it would be a work in progress. 
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishva...@gmail.com>

Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 9:10 PM
To: bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} उच्चारणदोषाः


On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 9:29 AM Radhakrishna Warrier <radwa...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 
In my personal opinion, that was not a wise move, like the discarding of the samvrta ukaara in the 1970 - 1980 period.

What did this saMvRta ukAra look like? When was it adapted? Do you see it in https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0D00.pdf ?

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Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Member, Academic Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthana.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

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Nagaraj Paturi
 
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
 
 
 

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Nagaraj Paturi
 
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
 
 
 

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K S Kannan

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May 27, 2020, 4:19:58 AM5/27/20
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The effect of the Leftist capturing of Humanities and Social Sciences 
in respect of framing of syllabi/appointment to high posts has been
that whoever has done BA ends up as an almost rabid hater
of Sanskrit, of the Vedic, and in general, of the Indic heritage.

It was only those who took science/engineering/medicine
that could be expected to speak sense and be balanced.

And that is why the L-Gang spread its tentacles over many institutions of
higher learning in science and engineering, virtually spoiling and vitiating
the minds of the young and brilliant students there. Now we have harvest after harvest
of bright minds, a good many of whom have no sense of direction,
and look up exclusively to Western models for progress of whatever definition
in any direction whatsoever.

K S Kannan

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May 27, 2020, 4:24:10 AM5/27/20
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Yes, Madam, Things are looking up a bit better nowadays
after the decimation of the anti-Indic regime
which actually proved worse than the British for all practical purposes.

Nehru did say, we hear, that he was the last Britisher to rule India!

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venkat veeraraghavan

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May 27, 2020, 4:32:04 AM5/27/20
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Dear Smt Irene ji

" You see, two centuries of forced servitude would potentially account for inertia, but what about destructive initiative? "

There is a fair amount of that (destructive initiative). As Dr. Kannan has pointed out the leftists have had a strangelhold on the humanities and SS sections.
And I am sure you have heard of the term more royalist than the queen/king?
That is lefties and the Congress for you.
Sense of any sort farless the common variety is unlikely to prevail.

Regards,

Venkat




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Irene Galstian

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May 27, 2020, 4:38:07 AM5/27/20
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Professor Kannan, 

All the more reason then to look through McGilchrist's book, since the choice of his work, rather than, say, Cutting's Critique of Psychopathology, wasn't accidental. You may find therein a far-reaching investigation into just what 'leftist' entails.

Irene


On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 9:19:58 AM UTC+1, ks.kannan.2000 wrote:
The effect of the Leftist capturing of Humanities and Social Sciences 
in respect of framing of syllabi/appointment to high posts has been
that whoever has done BA ends up as an almost rabid hater
of Sanskrit, of the Vedic, and in general, of the Indic heritage.

It was only those who took science/engineering/medicine
that could be expected to speak sense and be balanced.

And that is why the L-Gang spread its tentacles over many institutions of
higher learning in science and engineering, virtually spoiling and vitiating
the minds of the young and brilliant students there. Now we have harvest after harvest
of bright minds, a good many of whom have no sense of direction,
and look up exclusively to Western models for progress of whatever definition
in any direction whatsoever.


From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishva...@gmail.com>

Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 9:10 PM
To: bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} उच्चारणदोषाः


On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 9:29 AM Radhakrishna Warrier <radwa...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 
In my personal opinion, that was not a wise move, like the discarding of the samvrta ukaara in the 1970 - 1980 period.

What did this saMvRta ukAra look like? When was it adapted? Do you see it in https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0D00.pdf ?

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--
Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Member, Academic Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthana.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

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--
Nagaraj Paturi
 
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
 
 
 

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--
Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Member, Academic Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthana.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

Irene Galstian

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May 27, 2020, 4:44:36 AM5/27/20
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Sorry, please ignore my last post: it was meant to be sent to Prof Kannan privately and may not make much sense without context.

Irene

K S Kannan

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May 27, 2020, 4:44:50 AM5/27/20
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Yes, Madam.
But my laptop has been not cooperating
wrt opening epub items.
Have to find a way out.

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K S Kannan

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May 27, 2020, 4:45:37 AM5/27/20
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Ditto

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 2:14 PM Irene Galstian <gnos...@gmail.com> wrote:
Sorry, please ignore my last post: it was meant to be sent to Prof Kannan privately and may not make much sense without context.

Irene

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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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May 27, 2020, 5:15:01 AM5/27/20
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On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 2:14 PM K S Kannan <ks.kann...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, Madam.
But my laptop has been not cooperating
wrt opening epub items.


I suppose you are a windoze (sic) user, in which case, https://calibre-ebook.com/download_windows

 
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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May 27, 2020, 5:16:36 AM5/27/20
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On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 1:46 PM Irene Galstian <gnos...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm surprised at the tendency of certain Indian linguists to advocate excising sounds from their own languages, but I struggle to see that as colonial baggage. You see, two centuries of forced servitude would potentially account for inertia, but what about destructive initiative?

Just one word: Macaulay. (Not that I noticed anyone blaming 200y barbarian rule.)

 
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Irene Galstian

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May 27, 2020, 5:24:30 AM5/27/20
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Oh, I'm sorry! Just converted to PDF and sent. 

Venkatakrishna Sastry

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May 27, 2020, 3:26:40 PM5/27/20
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Namaste

 

1. The script reform approach  of 1970 -to-1980  is a very narrow window to understand the decays that were already set in in the  traditional Education system  at India.

    The ' historic narrative , useful for a good postmortem analysis can be seen in the 44 page report report available at the following link

     https://sg.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/69112/5/chapter%203.pdf .

Good people have advised in the past on what needs to have been done. The failure to implement the good advise, as ' Ravana , Dhrutarashtra' syndrome lies elsewhere.  

One can see this scenario for each of the indian languages; and focusing on Sanskrit, the failure to implement the three education commission reports so far.

What is happening at the current period in the name of ' pushng digital literacy' as New NAtional Education policy is struggle to fit an elephant to the pigeons hols :: Indic langague repertorie to fit on the given unicode framework and 'legacy  encoding', which is on the exit mode in A.I for Human Langauge technologies  framework.

 

2. Knowledge of history is important to diagnose the malady. But  pushing  ' hisotry to be the detiny of present endeavor' needs a justification by several factors, especialy the econmic factor. 

 

    The 'makret for 'Moksha- Spiritual dimension of langauge -education offers ' is not same as ' 'Market-Social  dimension of langauge -education offers accelearted through technology power'. 

 

If 'we the langauge people' do think that the 'langauge standards of specific texts and resoruces' are of value, then we need to show the relevance of these studies ,today and for future. 

 We are not going to live in past. We just slide down time-line to  become  'past' ,  post our active life and life span.

 

The script reform committee used  a specific reform under a social and technological constraint. And it was good for the literacy of the specific  writing system.  Scripts evovled ever since IVC to Ashokan to current period. But the voice of the sacred texts still remain the ancient one and standard. 

 The language user communities  seem to have become insensivitie / developed new snsitivities in articulating the sounds of sacred texts; an inchecked unrestrained drift in slippage of  ear-sensitivity to  language sounds and standards.

The missing dimension of 'Tradiitonal Langauge' is it connection to socio-economics of nation and relevance to ' techno-economics' due to ' langauge user community apathy.

 

3. Cleaning up the three hundred years ' dust of langauge reform and social apathy' using a few millennia old texts for referencing and then aligning it to a alien language phonetic structure and standards --- There seems to be some thing misisng in the entire discourse here.

 

The  human voice  with all its potential, remains the same, waiting for any one to be discovered and used.  This is Shikshaa and Pratishaakhya as 'Vak-Yoga' appraoch to study and experience. This pursuit to discover the potential of human speech is not constrained by langauge  tag classifications and use in historic time. Langauge sound is a current moment and person specific reality. Script is only a pointer ( upalakshana, soochaka,  shaakhaa -chandra nyaya).

 

Regards

BVK Sastry.

chapter 3.pdf

Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan

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May 27, 2020, 3:30:32 PM5/27/20
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Dear Sri Venkat

Actually the late Srimati MSS is correct and pretty much right on the money. As per the nannUl, there are specific rules on how the ca-kAra should be pronounced. An old (free) translation of the nannUl can be found here https://archive.org/details/atamilgrammarde00lazagoog/mode/2up. The relevant sections are 

image.png


image.png

One can argue how close to the Sanskrit sha-kAra the ca-kAra in tamil icai is, but it's certainly not isai. More "Brahmanical" accents use the Sanskrit sha very clearly, while purists may say it slightly different, but definitely not the Sanskrit sa-kAra. That sound is just not there in classical Tamil, although pretty much everyone uses it. We did learn these nuances in high school Tamil grammar.

The author has pointed out an equivalent Telugu alphabet, but I don't know Telugu to know what this means. An interesting note: my wife always says sharkara (similar to Tamil cakkarai), but means jaggery in Malayalam. I verified from her, they actually write the equivalent of the Sanskrit sha. 

Ramakrishnan

venkat veeraraghavan

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May 27, 2020, 8:57:46 PM5/27/20
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Dear Sri Ramakrishnan

Thank you so much for clarifying this issue.
Thanks also Shri Warrier ji for his explanation.

I must admit that i am sadly lacking in a classical Tamil education and hence a victim of dravidian propaganda and took to heart what that clown Kamalhassan said about these 'mispronunciations ' in an interview long back.
And i will also know better than to hold up the current state of Tamil as representative of what the original grammarians intended.

Thank you again.

I learnt something today!
It is also gratifying to know MS amma was right. Better her than I.

Regards 
Venkat 

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Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan

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May 27, 2020, 9:50:01 PM5/27/20
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On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 8:57 PM venkat veeraraghavan <vvenk...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Sri Ramakrishnan

Thank you so much for clarifying this issue.
Thanks also Shri Warrier ji for his explanation.

I must admit that i am sadly lacking in a classical Tamil education and hence a victim of dravidian propaganda and took to heart what that clown Kamalhassan said about these 'mispronunciations ' in an interview long back.

Perhaps he was talking about his drAviDa-kazhagam/Periyarist buddies, and probably 99% of them can't pronounce zha or La or likely even Na :-). Amusing story: A junior of mine in college went to high school in TUttukuDi. One of his classmates was the son of a DMK MLA and this boy knew NO Tamil. So when the late Mu Karunanidhi came once to their house he had a crash course for a few weeks on how to say a couple of sentences to him :-).

Ramakrishnan
 
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venkat veeraraghavan

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May 27, 2020, 10:11:15 PM5/27/20
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Actually KH was making fun of tam brahm Tamizh.
I remember him quoting words like shonnaa 'said' and so on.
Dravidian bastardisation of Tamizh is the stuff of legend else why would they prop up the siriaar who said Tamizh is the language of kaattumiraandis?
Confused sense is not very uncommon. As long as the target is tam brahms they'll align with anyone!

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Venkatakrishna Sastry

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May 28, 2020, 2:36:43 AM5/28/20
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Namaste

 

Clarification request for supplemental inforamtion on < We did learn these nuances in high school Tamil grammar. > ?  

 

What year of schooling? which area? What grammar resource used for reference beyond the claim ' My teacher said that this is the standard of X- langauge ( where X- is equally applicable to Tamil, Telugu, Sanskrit, …including english !) ?

Post Highschool, was there any check on which standards (beyond personal passion and liking ) were being referred by highschool teacher ?

 

A post period check would be : How are current  X-language ( in this context,Tamil)  schools teachers teaching basics of language pronunciation ?

 

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

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