Help Needed on Access Areas

[Kevin Colburn]

Hi Team, 

We are very close to releasing our new app. It is sweet, and one of its perks is that you can click on any access point, click directions, and it will open directions to the access area in your phone's mapping app. The current apps have this too, but the new app makes this a bit more prominent and easy. 

The challenge we face is that some/many rivers have the put-ins and take-outs snapped to the reach line rather than where people park, or just in the wrong place. We would greatly appreciate it if you could go to pages rivers you know and make sure that:

• The Put In, Take Out, and Access Areas are located where you park, not snapped to the reach, and that they have the correct characteristic selected (put in, take out, access area). This is essential for GPS to work. Points are where you park, the line is where you paddle. 
• If you feel that you need to add a point on the river for where you get in or out of the water for any reason, feel free, and select "other" for their characteristic. 

It would be great if we could knock out the most important runs. Here is a tracker for what we consider some of the more popular runs in each area. When you fix a run, marking it complete on this spreadsheet will help us work efficiently. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NUDGb76IR6YAyyGBrJ-XGMaFrn364ejDgtjTX7dyBwA/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks! 

[Rob]

That sounds great, click/routing made prominent and easy. Yes, this addresses a glaring fault from the past ... that we do not differentiate between where you can drive to and park, versus where you get into or out of your boat.

However ... contrary to your representation that " some/many rivers have the put-ins and take-outs snapped to the reach line", I would say the vast majority of put-ins and take-outs are snapped to the reach line, and 'a few'/'some' have them where you park or elsewhere (for whatever reason).

"Put in" and "Take out" literally refer to where you actually get in your boat and get on the water. But now, we're going to change it to mean where you park? That makes the system totally nonintuitive! (Yes, in casual usage people use them interchangeably, as in "I driving to the put-in", whether it's at water's edge or where you start a walk of however many yards or miles.)

The present system defaults to snapping everything to the water, since the vast majority of what we are detailing (actual put-in, actual take-out, and all the "river features") is at/on the water. It is the exceptions that need to not snap to the reach line. Parking (or 'access') when it is not immediately adjacent to the river is exactly such an exception.

As for "Access Areas" being "where you park", the terminology of "access area" is a bit nebulous, since it is used in plenty of other ways (which include by car, by foot, by bicycle, by ATV, by wheelchair): handicapped access, freeway access, public access, private access, deeded access, limited access, .... But this would mandate that all contributors to the river pages use it (and all users understand it is being used) only for where you can drive to, and park?

Seems to me it would be far more understandable to have (and it shouldn't be all that difficult to add/program) a specific 'characteristic'/icon to designate 'Parking' (which could be used for both put-in and take-out parking). This would allow all presently designated 'put in' and 'take out' locations to stay where they are (snapped to the reach)! And then, only when parking is someplace not conspicuous/obvious/immediately adjacent to the river (or when default routing to the put-in or take-out (snapped-to-the-water) would take you to the wrong side of the river), it would be necessary for our volunteers to make an update to use (add) a 'Parking' location.

Moreover, 'parking' and 'access' should not be the only designations which are clickable, since phones/apps generally have GPS/routing not only by vehicle but also for on foot! What if I want (or need) to use phone/app routing to assist in walking to the river, or from the river to the nearest road or parking area? This would also be beneficial for rescuers who may need to get routing to a rapids (by foot, by helicopter, or whatever).

[Kevin Colburn]

Good idea regarding "Parking." I agree we should either do that or clearly define that "access area" means where you park.  "Put in" is used to mean both where you slide in the water and where you park. As I've been fixing reaches I find I want to name the put in "Put In Parking Area" or something like that, which I think is my attempt to hack a more formalized change like you are suggesting. This is especially true when there is trail access to the river and it's helpful to know where you get in or out of the water as well as where you park. Let me run this by our programming team.

Map directions don't really work well for getting to points without trails. It would be helpful in some situations and misleading in others. We'd like to get trails onto the AW system and are looking into that. It would be a big help. 

I'll just reiterate that I'm asking for help in fixing the popular river's put ins and take outs. Regardless of any name change, this is a manual process that we could use help with. Thanks for any help! 

[Thomas O'Keefe]

Thanks for any help on this. If the put in is on the reach vector it can navigate you to the wrong side if the river. You just need to unclick the Snap to Reach box and move the point to the correct side where you park. Put it where you unload your boat. If the place you unload your boat is far away and you are hiking in you can create an “other” point and just describe in the title and narrative description for the feature.

Also many many access points are not on the reach. I just fixed all the access points on the Poudre. The points were way up on the hillside, on a different segment, or lumped together in one spot miles from the actual access.

Tom

[Thomas O'Keefe]

Rob--take a look at Upper Gauley and see how we have access handled. There is a separate entry for the parking up at Legg Field and the spot down at the river. Another example is the South Fork Flathead where we have a feature for the trailheads where you start your hike.

[Rob]

The issue (as I've already stated) is about terminology.  Common usage is unfortunately misleading when the parking is not right at the river (and becomes problematic when the nearest mapped road is on the wrong side of the river).

The issue is about the suggestion/dictate that we MOVE the PUT-IN (which is AT the water, on the 'reach vector'), instead of leaving that be where it is, and designating a separate "Parking" location that can be used to get the driving directions. This would negate the concern about when the put in (on the reach vector) navigates to the wrong side of the river.

"Parking" is where you drive to with your vehicle, "put-in" and "take-out" are where you walk to/from with your boat!

Things are generally easy/obvious on BIG POPULAR COMMERCIALLY BOATED RUNS: the "Access Area", the "Parking", and the "Put-in"/"Take-out" are all likely to be formal 'improved' locations, with an obvious ramp to and from the river. However, the vast vast majority of runs on the NWI are smaller runs with no dedicated parking and no improved put-in.

Even when default routing takes one to the correct side of the river, it may not be obvious where to park (and where not to!) and how best to actually get onto and off of the water and back to shuttle vehicles (in the most convenient way, without violating any private property or other potential moral/legal/ethical complications). And that doesn't even begin to address wilderness hike-in runs, where directions are needed to get to the actual "Put In" from that parking, or from the river back to some civilization! That can be true even for some urban runs!

So, boaters may need to have all four separate locations! We need capability to have them clearly differentiated!

As hinted above, we might also consider having a way of specifying where where you cannot park and where you cannot (or should not) attempt to access the water! This could be for reasons of private property, state or local legal restrictions, or simply logistics (no reasonable or legal parking, or complications for accessing the river (without elaborate climbing apparatus, or other logistical complications). Again, this can apply to remote runs and equally to urban runs!

The long-standing assumption is that each river page should be written by someone very familiar with the logistics of the run. Unfortunately, this familiarity often leads to leaving out 'minor details' such as these, which may be critical to someone completely unfamiliar with the run!  We have listed the put in, but we have (most often) FAILED to say anything about parking or access logistics. As a result, all too often on these 'less popular' runs (I.E., not commercially boated), we provide anyone unfamiliar with a run just enough information to get 'near' the run, but then leave them essentially on their own to figure out how to actually get ON (and off) the run!

Listing 'Parking' separate from 'put in' and 'take out' would be a step in the direction of encouraging our 'contributors' (since we've all but eliminated the 'StreamTeam' concept in favor of the Wiki model) to come closer to filling this information gap.

[Kevin Colburn]

Yes we agree. Question for the group on nomenclature: We are pondering converting the existing "take-out" "put-in" and "access area" features to "take-out parking" "put-in parking" and "access area parking."  This should be pretty helpful and clear. But what should we call the places where you actually slide your boat into the water and take it out of the water? "Put in launch" "Take-out here" "boat launch" "boat exit" just "put-in"... Looking for a diversity of opinions on all three kinds of features (put-in, take-out, other access spot). 

[D. R. C]

IMHO, just “put-in”, “put-in parking”, “takeout”, “takeout parking”, “access area”, and “access area parking” is sufficient. Then people could simply use “put-in”, “takeout”, and “access area” if they’re effectively the same. Allow for differentiation but don’t require it.

[Paul Martzen]

I vote:    “put-in”, “put-in parking”, “takeout”, “takeout parking”, “access area”, and “access area parking” .

[Rob]

Since it is looking like we are agreed on that, this cancels the two bullet points as written in the original post.

And, then, the spreadsheet ("Most Important NWI Rivers Access Repairs") is not about moving put-in/take-out icons (and anyone who did move any, needs to move/'snap' them back onto the reach vector).

And ... the spreadsheet 'Access Status' column should all be reset to 'unchecked', with the understanding that what we now should be verifying is that each of these (as well as all other 'less important' rivers) have a pin added to designate the parking and/or access area(s) ... at least, once the programming is done to include that icon/option.

[Kevin Colburn]

Thanks for the feedback - super helpful. We are chatting with our programming / engineer folks to see what makes the most sense. 

Please DO NOT undo any work that has been done to make put in and take out points reflect where people should park. No matter how we move forward this work remains important. Those points will remain where you park whether they are renamed, refactored on the back end, etc. It also might be a while until we prioritize making this change. 

[Tom Welander]

Gang, what's an "access area" among the set of terms that includes "put in", "put in parking", "take out", "take out parking"?  Is that a mid-run access point?  --Tom W.

[Kevin Colburn]

Yes, that is correct. It can also be a bonus area upstream or downstream for adding mileage. The PI and TO should the the most commonly used standard spots. 

Kevin Colburn
National Stewardship Director
American Whitewater

828-712-4825

ke...@americanwhitewater.org

www.americanwhitewater.org

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[Anthon Allred]

One other thing that happened is that on the Lower Yough page someone moved the take-out location to the "Old Mitchell place" parking area where during the season weekends paddlers meet the bus that brings them up from the river at the end of the trip.  That had the result of moving the takeout "feature" to the middle of the run (shortest distance from there to the river).  This can also be confusing because during weekdays and when out-of-season, you can drive down much closer to the river take-out.  I moved the take-out to the river left shore where you actually take-out.  You may want to consider "staging area parking" or "in season parking" to deal with this unusual situation.  Otherwise I agree with “put-in”, “put-in parking”, “takeout”, “takeout parking”, “access area”, and “access area parking”. 

Tony Allred Jr.

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[ajhar...@gmail.com]

Kevin, Can you check my edits to reach 1082. I tried to add parking and launch (put in) and exit (takeout) points but they are showing up as rapids. Also not seeing the icons on the website map nor on the new app. Is there a way to delineate between parking, launch, exit and rapids, e.g. unique icons for each?

Also is the new app in beta mode? Seeing some quirks. Looks very promising though. I am not seeing my favorited runs. How do I get to that? Also the map zooms out randomly but maybe that is my phone doing that. 

Thanks!

Alex

[Jim Mazzola III]

Have multiple Put-ins and/or Take-outs been accounted for? For instance, on the Tuckaseegee,  there is an upper put-in, above the dam, and a lower put in by the bridge. Same with French Broad Sec 9, Stackhouse and Hot Springs Take-outs.

These multiple access points need to be accounted for and have the ability to name them.

A river can have multiples of these.

Jim

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[Pete Giordano]

I'm a little confused about all of this. If I look at my local runs in Oregon that say completed on the spreadsheet, there doesn't seem to be any access points marked on the map, just names. When I click on the name on a pc on the webpage, it does give me info for directions. The android app just has them in a list rather than a map and it seems to work. The default map view on my pc often has multiple names layered on top of each other if they are close together so it just looks like a jumble until you zoom in.

And this brings me to another point which has been brought up before, I don't have any information on who made changes to access points as some of the points have the wrong gps locations and I can't tell what the content was before significant changes. There really, really needs to be a change/version list somewhere accessible to track this kind of thing. Otherwise, we get potentially new content every couple years that doesn't change the actual substance of the content but rather reflects the editing style of the new person.

Oh, and my account seems to have disappeared so I can't login in to do anything.

pete

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[Pete Giordano]

Not to sound overly critical but, in my opinion, the android version of the app needs more testing before it is released outside of a beta class. At least on my phone, the mapping feature is super frustrating to try and use. It seems to keep reverting back to the standard zoom view which encompasses the entire US. When I am able to briefly zoom into a closer region, there are no labels on any stream reach. So for example, I'm not super familiar with Idaho and can't seem to locate the SF Salmon other than randomly clicking stream reaches. Then it zooms back out and I have to repeat the whole process again. There doesn't seem to be a search feature once you are on the map.

It has locked up almost every time I've tried to use the main search feature.

If I just browse by state, the stream reaches stop scrolling about the Cs in Idaho.

I fear if people have a bad impression of this version they will never use it again.

pete
503.504.0366

[Pete Giordano]

I realize I'm late to the game on this one but how does one add an access point or parking area?

Thanks.

pete

On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 6:57 AM Kevin Colburn <ke...@americanwhitewater.org> wrote:

--

[Tom Welander]

It’s one of these two brief instruction videos that Kevin made. 

https://youtu.be/2CS2Hr5yQ9Q?si=dmpSFNeBdzgOZweP

 https://youtu.be/igpI6QfYceQ?si=WhvCT--A1tZCQKZm

They’re both very good. Very focused, quick, and efficient. 

—tw

On May 18, 2025, at 3:58 PM, Pete Giordano <blues...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Pete Giordano]

Those are helpful for editing existing locations but I didn't see anything about adding a location like a parking area, etc.

pete
503.504.0366

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[Tom Welander]

You're quite right Pete. Yet somehow after watching this one I knew
exactly how to add features (rapids, access points, paddle-up cocktail
bars, etc.):

https://youtu.be/2CS2Hr5yQ9Q?si=dmpSFNeBdzgOZweP

At 1:08 in the video, notice the green "New Rapid" button. Disregard
the misnomer. Click that button to add a new feature of any type. From
there, follow the same process that the video explains for modifying an
existing feature.

On 5/18/2025 8:48 PM, Pete Giordano wrote:
> Those are helpful for editing existing locations but I didn't see
> anything about adding a location like a parking area, etc.
>
> pete
> 503.504.0366
>
>
> On Sun, May 18, 2025, 2:21 PM Tom Welander <tomwe...@gmail.com
> <mailto:tomwe...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> It’s one of these two brief instruction videos that Kevin made.
>
>> https://youtu.be/2CS2Hr5yQ9Q?si=dmpSFNeBdzgOZweP

>> <https://youtu.be/2CS2Hr5yQ9Q?si=dmpSFNeBdzgOZweP>
>
>> https://youtu.be/igpI6QfYceQ?si=WhvCT--A1tZCQKZm

>> <https://youtu.be/igpI6QfYceQ?si=WhvCT--A1tZCQKZm>
>
> They’re both very good. Very focused, quick, and efficient.
>
> —tw
>
>> On May 18, 2025, at 3:58 PM, Pete Giordano <blues...@gmail.com

>> <mailto:blues...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> I realize I'm late to the game on this one but how does one add an
>> access point or parking area?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> pete
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 6:57 AM Kevin Colburn
>> <ke...@americanwhitewater.org

>> <mailto:ke...@americanwhitewater.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Team,
>>
>> We are very close to releasing our new app. It is sweet, and
>> one of its perks is that you can click on any access point,
>> click directions, and it will open directions to the access
>> area in your phone's mapping app. The current apps have this
>> too, but the new app makes this a bit more prominent and easy.
>>
>> The challenge we face is that some/many rivers have the
>> put-ins and take-outs snapped to the reach line rather than
>> where people park, or just in the wrong place. We would
>> greatly appreciate it if you could go to pages rivers you know
>> and make sure that:
>>

>> * The Put In, Take Out, and Access Areas are located *where
>> you park*, not snapped to the reach, and that they have

>> the correct characteristic selected (put in, take out,
>> access area). This is essential for GPS to work. Points
>> are where you park, the line is where you paddle.

>> * If you feel that you need to add a point on the river for

>> where you get in or out of the water for any reason, feel
>> free, and select "other" for their characteristic.
>>
>> It would be great if we could knock out the most important
>> runs. Here is a tracker for what we consider some of the more
>> popular runs in each area. When you fix a run, marking it
>> complete on this spreadsheet will help us work efficiently.

>> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NUDGb76IR6YAyyGBrJ-XGMaFrn364ejDgtjTX7dyBwA/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NUDGb76IR6YAyyGBrJ-XGMaFrn364ejDgtjTX7dyBwA/edit?usp=sharing>

>>
>> Thanks!
>>
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[Kevin Colburn]

Hi All, THANKS for all the good feedback and questions:

Alex I fixed 1082. If you pick Put In or Take Out or Access Area from the dropdown menu labelled "Characteristics" that should do it. 

Tony regarding custom access area types, just change the name in the edit interface from "Put In" to "Put In Staging Area" or whatever makes the most sense. 

Jim, Yes the multiple put-in and take-out situation is a bit of a puzzle. What I have been doing is making the most common put in the put in (same with take out) and then categorizing the others "access areas." I believe you can also just have multiple put ins, and then name them things like "Standard Put In" or "Put In Above Dillsboro Dam Site."

Pete, Tom is right, Right below "River Features" if you've clicked the edit pencil, you'll see a green button that says "Add Feature." Click it and that will do the trick. You are 100% right we need to be tracking and sharing changes to the river features and gauges, not just the other parts of the site. We are going to tackle that. When you see a bunch of rapids on top of either on a map tab, it means they were entered long ago using lat/long and did not convert properly and need to be repositioned with the mapping interface. If there is a put in listed, it should show up on the map tab if you are zoomed in enough - if some are not, please email me the link and we'll look into it. 

Thanks all!  

[ajhar...@gmail.com]

Thanks Kevin. As for editing the map, the access point at Wilson Road is showing as a rapid in the description even though I have it as an access point in the characteristics box. Also the icons and labels are not showing up properly on the online map.