STAR OOPS: Brexiters Have a Buyers' Remorse - But Is it Not Too Late?

[Mobolaji Aluko]

My People:

Oops!

You can now see buyers' remorse in the UK already, and a request for a second referendum because  "less than 75% voted and the winning vote was less than 60%" - according to a curious petition demand!:

This is what was very worrying to me over an issue as important as this:  even if ten people more had voted to "Brexit" rather than to "Bremain", we would still be talking about this Brexit move.

I would have thought that a SUPER-MAJORITY clause should have been specified   - that unless a difference like 10%  or even 15%  was achieved -  the 43-year-old status quo should be maintained.  Is that not what is done, when 2/3 majority or 4/5 majority is required rather than simple majority in parliamentary system?  Or that if the vote is within 5%, a five-year breathing or cooling-off period will be provided, and a re-vote taken, after which a simple majority would be allowed?

 When we couple it with the fact that it appears that many of the UK voters did not REALLY know the full CONSEQUENCES of the outcome of their vote - hence a recent uptick in Google searches for "EU"  AFTER the vote -  we have a problem....so we might also institute a ISSUE-KNOWLEDGE test for voters in a democracy - what ethicist Jason Brennan reminds us is called "epistocracy"

But that is spilled  milk now - or is it not?

Bolaji Aluko

Shaking his head

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/25/could-britain-actually-have-a-second-referendum-on-brexit/

As more than a million people sign a petition for a second EU referendum we ask - could it actually happen?.

http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2016/06/24/ethicist-jason-brennan-brexit-democracy-and-epistocracy/

Ethicist Jason Brennan: Brexit, Democracy, and Epistocracy

QUOTE

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/25/could-britain-actually-have-a-second-referendum-on-brexit/

As more than a million people sign a petition for a second EU referendum we ask - could it actually happen?

 Camilla Turner  Michael Wilkinson 

25 JUNE 2016 • 3:57PM

A petition calling for a second EU referendum has reached over a million signatures, attracting the biggest surge of support Parliament’s website has ever seen.

The author of the petition, William Oliver Healey, says the Government should re-stage the referendum because the winning vote for Leave was less than 60 per cent and was based on a turnout of less than 75 per cent. 

But could this actually happen?

Professor Vernon Bogdanor, one of Britain’s foremost constitutional experts said a second referendum is “highly unlikely”.

He told The Telegraph: “I don’t think the EU will wish to bargain any further, they will take this vote as final.”

Prof Bogdanor, an expert in constitutional history at King’s College London who was David Cameron’s tutor at Oxford, warned that Governments will be “very careful” about calling for referendums in the future. 

Professor John Curtice, whose exit poll was the only one to predict the Conservatives would win last year's general election, said the subject was so divisive within mainstream political parties and their supporters that it would be unlikely to form a campaigning issue for some time - let alone spark another public vote.

Thursday's referendum saw 17.4 million (51.9%) votes cast to leave the EU, compared with 16.1 million (48.1%) for remaining part of the bloc, with a turnout of 72.2%, according to the Electoral Commission.

In response, more than a million people have signed an online petition calling for the Government to implement a rule that "if the Remain or Leave vote is less than 60% based on a turnout less than 75%, there should be another referendum".

The petition passed the seven-figure landmark just over 24 hours after the referendum result was confirmed.

A petition calling for a second EU referendum

Prof Curtice said: "How many people voted in favour of Leave? Seventeen million. One million is chicken feed by comparison.

"It's no good people signing the petition now, they should have done it before. Even then, these petitions don't always mean a great deal.

"It has passed the 100,000 mark for it to be debated in Parliament. All that means is that some MPs will say, 'It's a terrible shame', others will say, 'Hallelujah'. Then that's the end of it.

"Mainstream political parties have been divided on Europe. The parties' supporters have been divided. Nobody is going to want to campaign prominently on this."

The professor of politics at the University of Strathclyde added: "If Boris Johnson is running the Government and if (disengagement from the EU) is taking a long time to be implemented, two years down the line we could have another poll showing people actually want to reverse the decision and remain in.

"Then there could be a situation where the opposition party in a general election have a mandate to hold a new referendum on it."

Is the referendum legally binding?

In theory, the Prime Minister could ignore the referendum result, put the question to a parliamentary debate and gamble on the majority of MPs voting to remain.

This is because parliament is sovereign and referendums are generally not binding in the UK.

Had the 2011 referendum on changing the electoral system to alternative vote been successful, the Government would have been obliged to change the law. However, no such provision was contained within the EU referendum legislation.

What is Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty and why is it important?

Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty states: “Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements”.

Mr Cameron can decide when to invoke Article 50, which is the formal notification to the EU of Britain’s decision to leave. He could still decide to ignore the vote and refuse to invoke it. However, in practise, this is very unlikely.

He has said in the past that he would have to trigger it immediately after a vote for Leave, although he could have been speaking figuratively to emphasise that the referendum was final.

On Saturday, the EU founding states called on Britain to "urgently" trigger Article 50 and begin the process of departure. 

When will Britain actually leave the EU?

After invoking Article 50, Britain would have up to two years to negotiate their terms of exit. If they wanted any longer, all member states would need to unanimously agree to it.

Prof Bogdanor said that Article 50 is “deliberately designed to make it difficult to leave. The balance of power is with the other 27 member states.”

He went on: “There are up to two years to negotiate. Unless there is unanimity, they can say ‘these are our terms, take it or leave it’.”

Senior EU officials have already said they want Britain to leave as soon as possible.

Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European commission, said “it doesn’t make any sense to wait until October to try to negotiate the terms of their departure”.

In an interview with Germany’s ARD television station, he added: “I would like to get started immediately.” 

Will Britain ever be able to re-join the EU?

Yes. The final clause of Article 50 states: “If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49”.

Article 49 of the Lisbon Treaty deals with the procedure for any countries wanting to join the EU, whether they have previously been members or not.

 

It says that if a European state is committed to promoting the values of “human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights” then it may apply to become a member of the Union.

Following an application, the European Council would have to unanimously agree to Britain re-joining, after consulting with the Commission and receiving assent of the European Parliament. The decision would then need to be ratified by all member states.

UNQUOTE

_____________________

http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2016/06/24/ethicist-jason-brennan-brexit-democracy-and-epistocracy/

Ethicist Jason Brennan: Brexit, Democracy, and Epistocracy

June 24, 2016 by PUP Author

By Jason Brennan

The Washington Post reports that there is a sharp uptick today in the number of Britons Googling basic questions about what the European Union is and what the implications of leaving are. This is a bit like deciding to study after you’ve already taken the final exam.

Technically, the Brexit referendum is not binding. Parliament could decide to hold their own vote on whether to leave the European Union. Perhaps they should. Perhaps the UK’s leaders owe it to the people to thwart their expressed will.

Leaving the EU is no small affair. It probably will have enormous effects on the UK, Europe, and much of the rest of the world. But just what these effects will be is unclear. To have even a rudimentary sense of the pros and cons of Brexit, a person would need to possess tremendous social scientific knowledge. One would need to know about the economics and sociology of trade and immigration, the politics of centralized regulation, and the history of nationalist movements. But there is no reason to think even a tenth of the UK’s population has a basic grasp of the social science needed to evaluate Brexit.

Political scientists have been studying voter knowledge for the past 60 years. The results are uniformly depressing. Most voters in most countries are systematically ignorant of even the most basic political facts, let alone more the social scientific theories needed to make sense of these facts.

This brings us to the central injustice of democracy, and why holding a referendum was a bad idea. Imagine, as an analogy, that you are sick. You go to a doctor. But suppose your “doctor” doesn’t study the facts, doesn’t know any medicine, and makes her decisions about how to treat you on a whim, on the basis of prejudice or wishful thinking. Imagine the doctor not only prescribes you a course of treatment, but literally forces you, at gunpoint, to accept the treatment.

We’d find this behavior intolerable. You doctor owes you a duty of care. She owes it to you to deliver an expert opinion on the basis of good information, a strong background knowledge of medicine, and only after considering the facts in a rational and scientific way. To force you to follow the decisions incompetent and bad faith doctor is unjust.

But this is roughly what happens in democracy. Most voters are ignorant of both basic political facts and the background social scientific theories needed to evaluate the facts. They process what little information they have in highly biased and irrational ways. They decided largely on whim. And, worse, we’re each stuck having to put up with the group’s decision. Unless you’re one of the lucky few who has the right and means to emigrate, you’re forced to accept your democracy’s poorly chosen decisions.

There’s a big dilemma in the design of political institutions. Should we be ruled by the few or the many? What this amounts to is the choice between being ruled by the smart but selfish or dumb but nice. When only a small number of people hold power, they tend to use this power for their own ends at the expense of everyone else. If a king holds all the power, his decisions matter. He will likely use that power in a smart way, but smart for himself, rather than smart for everybody. Suppose instead we give everyone power. In doing so, we largely remove the incentive and ability for people to use power in self-serving ways at the expense of everyone else. But, at the same time, we remove the incentive for people to use power wisely. Since individual votes count for so little, individual voters have no incentive to become well-informed or to process information with any degree of care. Democracy incentivizes voters to be dumb.

Going back to the doctor analogy, here’s the dilemma: Suppose you could choose between two doctors. The first doctor prescribes you medicine based on what’s good for her, not you. The second is a complete fool who prescribes you medicine on whim and fancy, without reference to the facts. Roughly, with some exaggeration, that’s what the choice between monarchy or democracy amounts to. Neither is appealing.

What if there were a third way, though? In my forthcoming book, Against Democracy, I explore a way of splitting the difference. The trick is to find a political system that both 1) spreads power out enough to prevent people from using power selfishly and 2) weeds out or at least reduces the power of incompetent decision-makers.

In some sense, republican democracy, with checks and balances, was meant to do just that. And to a significant degree it succeeds. But perhaps a new system, epistocracy, could do even better.

In an epistocracy, political power is to some degree apportioned according to knowledge. An epistocracy might retain the major institutions we see in republican democracy, such as parties, mass elections, constitutional review, and the like. But in an epistocracy, not everyone has equal basic political power. An epistocracy might grant some people additional voting power, or might restrict the right to vote only to those that could pass a very basic test of political knowledge. Any such system will be subject to abuse, and will suffer from significant government failures. But that’s true of democracy too. The interesting question is whether epistocracy, warts and all, would perform better than democracy, warts and all.

All across the West, we’re seeing the rise of angry, resentful, nationalist, xenophobic and racist movements, movements made up mostly of low-information voters. Perhaps it’s time to put aside the childish and magical theory that democracy is intrinsically just, and start asking the serious question of whether there are better alternatives. The stakes are high.

Jason Brennan is the Robert J. and Elizabeth Flanagan Family Associate Professor of Strategy, Economics, Ethics, and Public Policy at the McDonough School of Business at Georgetown University. He is the author of The Ethics of Voting (Princeton), Why Not Capitalism?, and Libertarianism. He is the coauthor of Markets without Limits, Compulsory Voting, and A Brief History of Liberty. His new book, Against Democracy, is out this August. He writes regularly forBleeding Heart Libertarians, a blog.

_________________

[Joseph Igietseme]

Yea......VC-B, some Brits would wish they can change the rules of the game during or after the game. That's often the outcome in a society where some self-centered people pull all sorts of inward-looking agitations and strings to have their ways; Brits cannot be excused of being unaware or ignorant of the historical liberal engagement with the outside world that brought Britain the respect and influence they've had in the world.

On a second thought, they say "those the gods must destroy, they first make mad"; there's no other explanation for the Brexit madness because all these financial and political consequences were very predictable with any Yes vote for Brexit! Scotland and North Ireland will initiate their agitations for independence soon. Let's hope all these will not weigh down on Our Queen too much.

As Pastor Joe said yesterday, Ankara and Rome used to be Capitals of major empires; they're shrinking into Shagamu or even Agenebode size in all respects today. Take care. JUI

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[Wilson Iguade]

You can substitute Nigeria and Nigerian people in your narrative below, and same will be true on how Nigerians were hoodwinked by your likes. 

I say your likes, because after JUI has been repeatedly informed that a certain individual is NOT, repeat NOT an "economist", JUI still continues to deceive the people of this forum by labeling that individual as an "economist", like so JUI can pretend that he is talking to an "economist" in the eyes of his fans. Tufiakwa!

Britain is an ADVANCE country, and Nigeria is not, work on that and let British people sort out their problem. 

Sent from my iPhone

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[Wharfery Snake]

VC Aluko (dismissed),

That is their wahala mcheew! They cannot eat their cake and still have it. It is stupid to whine now. It is called medicine after death.

WS - A revered prince of Mushin.

Sent from my iPad

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[Mobolaji Aluko]

Canice Onuoha (Pea-Brained SwampSnake):

What do you know? Human beings are discussing, and former humans like you are inrUding? What do RePtiles know about lessons learnt?

Yours is called intrusion after transmutation.


Bolaji Aluko

> <https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/yXFlDMFX_hyQY4sGXCbCmhKDsBJCpFJa2sYGV_qalQ0hniG15sLtKeCxiEBjkFYGT3eFYn0JXxnA81ZHeBCuhv9OZeU7f3ADRjK-IySThu8srqRtZ1T6oyOKrQ7dqtnlYiLziA=s0-d-e1-ft#http://blog.press.princeton.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/brennan-194x300.gif>Jason Brennan is the Robert J. and Elizabeth Flanagan Family Associate Professor of Strategy, Economics, Ethics, and Public Policy at the McDonough School of Business at Georgetown University. He is the author of The Ethics of Voting (Princeton), Why Not Capitalism?, and Libertarianism. He is the coauthor of Markets without Limits, Compulsory Voting, and A Brief History of Liberty. His new book, Against Democracy, is out this August. He writes regularly forBleeding Heart Libertarians, a blog.

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[Chika Onyeani]

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[Joseph Igietseme]

Brother Iguade, JUI is wondering whether y're AFRAID to mention any individual's name in this forum! Just wondering! Take care. JUI

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[Wharfery Snake]

VC Aluko (sacked),

Recently you have turned very cranky. Is it the stress of hunting for another appointment from the APC led government? You may wanna reach out to Okoi Ofenmanu with a puckered lip for his ass. Lol! 

WS - A revered prince of Mushin.

Sent from my iPad

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[Mobolaji Aluko]

Pea-Brained Canice Onuoha (SwampSnake):

Cranky ke? You should see me smiling from ear to ear....

And you did not hear? Anyway, reptiles did not get the memo: I got a new job.....

Part of it involves SMASHING the head of reptiles like yourself, and squeezing the poison from your "tongue" as antidote serum - some kind of medical research professor in a laboratory.  That is only thing reptiles like yourself are good for...

Yep....I am enjoying smashing your reptilian head almost every day....and my arteries are fine now.

Silly fellow, you reptile.....

Bolaji Aluko

Not cranky at all

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[Ezeana Igirigi Achusim]

Bolaji:

The vote was fair and Britons have spoken. They want out of EU and they voted so. If only 75% voted, that was a good turnout. If the remaining 25% had voted, their votes probably would have increased the margin of victory for the exit. Discussions of a rerun are exactly that, discussions. At the conclusion of the discussions, the vote stands. 

You know I always have a solution to problems. If I were a Briton and I wanted Britain to remain in EU, but lost, I would accept the loss gracefully and then proceed with a petition for a referendum for Britain to join EU. I will work my mojo to make sure the turnout is 101%. If they vote not to join EU, that is the same as voting to exit. 

If you don't like the vote, and you are a Nigerian, you should boycott Britain. After all, they voted to exit EU so that they don't have to admit any more Nigerians. 

And I am

Ezeana Igirigi Achusim

Odi-Isaa

Nwa Dim Orioha AkA Onyeukwu 

Sent from my iPhone

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[Ola Kassim]

I agree that David Cameron bungled the EU Brexit Referendum right from the start. 

He should have demanded a super majority clause of 55 to 60% for such a monumental decision  along with a geographical clause of 60% of the counties in each region in order to carry the region and that 60% of the regions vote Leave in order to effect the change.

This is what I would recommend for any referendum seeking to dismember Nigeria.

Bye,

Ola

Sent from my iPhone

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[Wilson Iguade]

JUI is free to "wonder" as freely and as unrestricted as JUI admitted to doing from his below. My point remains: JUI posted an article in this thread that JUI called an individual an "economist", my issue is with JUI calling an individual an "economist", when that individual as told JUI that he is NOT an "economist".

The only name that I need to mention to JUI's wonderment is Joseph Igietseme, Ph.D, not technically "Dr. Joseph Igietseme" in Academia in the USA's universities systems' recognized best practices. 

JUI, let me be damn fucking clear to you, I am talking about you - JUI, known as Joseph Igietseme. You, JUI, are the one that called another an "economist", am just asking you to SUPPORT your own statement, not mine or that of another individual, but yours. 

JUI, why are you making statements you cannot support - what kind of "education" teaches you to do that or conduct yourself in such a manner given your educational background? Please answer this question if you are able.

I bet you DID learn that (making statements u cannot support) from Nsukka, in a 3rd WORLD Country, and not at Georgetown University in an ADVANCED (1st WORLD) Country. 

JUI can you support your statement? Yes or No, please explain. 

Stay tuned! Be FREE. Iguade

Sent from my iPhone

[Wilson Iguade]

Very unnecessary I must say. Beyond silly! 

Sent from my iPhone

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/africanworldforum/9F56C3D6-812E-45FA-903B-ADC02F305E25%40yahoo.com.

[John Ebohon]

My brother Segun,

The referendum cannot be left in the cooler for long, the rest of Europe will not accept this to be the case given the damage it will do the whole system, particularly the impending elections in France and other EU countries. Britain will not be allowed to have its cake and eat it at the same time. The only possible way out, and this is not very promising given the wrangling on the opposition side, is for one party to take an EU stand in the general election that might follow, now that it has become clear that most of the claims made by the BEXIT side were false. But, I don’t see the opposition party coming to power with its current leadership. If the ruling party is clever, they would choose a leader soonest, and call a general election and catch the opposition off-guard.

OJ

 

From: naijain...@googlegroups.com [mailto:naijain...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun T. Dawodu
Sent: 26 June 2016 17:23
To: naijain...@googlegroups.com
Cc: OKONKWO...@googlegroups.com; Edo Global <edo_g...@yahoogroups.com>; yahoogroups <igbowor...@yahoogroups.com>; yahoogroups <nigeriaw...@yahoogroups.com>; Google Inc. <africanw...@googlegroups.com>; usaafricadialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>; NaijaP...@yahoogroups.com; niger...@yahoogroups.com; yahoogroups <Omo...@yahoogroups.com>; nidan...@googlegroups.com; yahoogroups <ekiti...@yahoogroups.com>; yahoogroups <NIgerianW...@yahoogroups.com>; YanA...@yahoogroups.com; Naija Forum 1 <edo-nat...@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Naijaintellects] Re: NigerianID | STAR OOPS: Brexiters Have a Buyers' Remorse - But Is it Not Too Late?

 

The key points as well articulated in an article posted by Bolaji are the effect of Article 50 and the Supremacy of the Parliament in all decisions. 
This is better stated in this excerpt from that article:-

 

" The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction". 

 

So I think that referendum will be in the cooler for a very very long time. 

And to your question about the Queen, she has no say in the matter as the Parliament is supreme and she is a mere titular/ceremonial head. 

She needs to be careful before she finds her position threatened by a referendum. It alarmist happened after Diana's death. The British vote with their emotion and less with their thought process, otherwise how do you explain some silly voting patterns of recent. 

 

Segun

On Jun 26, 2016, at 8:12 AM, 'Adey' via naijaintellects <naijain...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Well, I want to believe that this "yeyeness" ain't over yet...... Ehn, where is the Queen? Adey

 

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From: Joseph Igietseme <jigie...@gmail.com>;
To: Wilson Iguade <igu...@hotmail.com>;
Cc: OKONKWO...@googlegroups.com <OKONKWO...@googlegroups.com>; edo_g...@yahoogroups.com <edo_g...@yahoogroups.com>; FORUM IGBO WORLD FORUM IGBO WORLD <igbowor...@yahoogroups.com>; nigeriaw...@yahoogroups.com <nigeriaw...@yahoogroups.com>; African GM <africanw...@googlegroups.com>; USAAfrica Dialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>; naijaintellects <naijain...@googlegroups.com>; NaijaPolitics e-Group <NaijaP...@yahoogroups.com>; niger...@yahoogroups.com <niger...@yahoogroups.com>; OmoOdua <Omo...@yahoogroups.com>; NiDAN <nidan...@googlegroups.com>; ekiti ekitigroups <ekiti...@yahoogroups.com>; NigerianWorldForum <NIgerianW...@yahoogroups.com>; Yan Arewa <YanA...@yahoogroups.com>; Ra'ayi <Raay...@yahoogroups.com>; Esan Community <esan_co...@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: Re: NigerianID | STAR OOPS: Brexiters Have a Buyers' Remorse - But Is it Not Too Late?
Sent: Sat, Jun 25, 2016 8:32:50 PM

Brother Iguade, JUI is wondering whether y're AFRAID to mention any individual's name in this forum! Just wondering! Take care. JUI

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On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Wilson Iguade <igu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

You can substitute Nigeria and Nigerian people in your narrative below, and same will be true on how Nigerians were hoodwinked by your likes.    I say your likes, because after JUI has been repeatedly informed that a certain individual is NOT, repeat NOT an "economist", JUI still continues to deceive the people of this forum by labeling that individual as an "economist", like so JUI can pretend that he is talking to an "economist" in the eyes of his fans. Tufiakwa!

Britain is an ADVANCE country, and Nigeria is not, work on that and let British people sort out their problem.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 25, 2016, at 1:44 PM, Joseph Igietseme <jigie...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yea......VC-B, some Brits would wish they can change the rules of the game during or after the game. That's often the outcome in a society where some self-centered people pull all sorts of inward-looking agitations and strings to have their ways; Brits cannot be excused of being unaware or ignorant of the historical liberal engagement with the outside world that brought Britain the respect and influence they've had in the world. On a second thought, they say "those the gods must destroy, they first make mad"; there's no other explanation for the Brexit madness because all these financial and political consequences were very predictable with any Yes vote for Brexit! Scotland and North Ireland will initiate their agitations for independence soon. Let's hope all these will not weigh down on Our Queen too much.   As Pastor Joe said yesterday, Ankara and Rome used to be Capitals of major empires; they're shrinking into Shagamu or even Agenebode size in all respects today. Take care. JUI

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_____________________     http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2016/06/24/ethicist-jason-brennan-brexit-democracy-and-epistocracy/

Jason Brennan is the Robert J. and Elizabeth Flanagan Family Associate Professor of Strategy, Economics, Ethics, and Public Policy at the McDonough School of Business at Georgetown University. He is the author of The Ethics of Voting (Princeton), Why Not Capitalism?, and Libertarianism. He is the coauthor of Markets without Limits, Compulsory Voting, and A Brief History of Liberty. His new book, Against Democracy, is out this August. He writes regularly forBleeding Heart Libertarians, a blog. _________________ __._,_.___

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[Afis Deinde]

Hmmmmmmm.......catch the opposition off guard?

Wow!

When it was the ruling party that caused chaos?

Now the same ruling party is going to win an election so soon?

Wow!

John Ebohon, you should be working for CNN or BBC.

But, don't quit your day job!

Afis

“Just as a solid rock is not shaken by the storm, even so the wise are not affected by praise or blame.” — Dhamapada, verse 81.

Sent from my iPhone

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