the fate of mind after realization

[Bhaskar YR]

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

We all agree we need the instrument (karaNa) to know / realize Atman.  bhagavatpAda too acknowledges it by saying for the Atma darshana karaNa is susamskruta mana.  Shruti also says Upanishad parama siddhAnta that there is no duality whatsoever to be realized through mana!!  So, I think there is no second opinion on this when it comes to prior requirement of suitable karaNa (instrument) to know the what is unknown.  Now the question is what happens to this karaNa in general and mind in particular in the jnAni after realizing that he is ekamevAdviteeyaM ??  is it going to vanish in thin air like snake vanishes in thin air after realizing the true svarUpa of rope??  Is the jnAni would suddenly become a brain-dead person after realizing he is brahman??  I don’t think so.  I don’t think it is appropriate to give the example of snake-rope or nacre-silver to decide the fate of mind. Shankara somewhere explains even after samyak jnana the regular activity of the speech, mana and body would continue as it is.  So, like snake, silver these karaNa-s would not vanish, like barren woman’s son it is nor atyanta abhAva OTOH like foam, bubble, waves it would continue to appear even after realizing that it is water only and nothing but water. So, mrutpinda, survaNAbharaNa etc. would be more appropriate here.  In kArika or somewhere else I have read karaNa would be realized as  Atman only like realizing ornaments are nothing but gold.  An iron ball in fire looks like fire is the example given here. 

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

Bhaskar YR #4A, 5 & 6 2nd Phase Peenya Industrial Estate Bangalore 560058, Karnataka, India Phone: +91808395181 E-mail: bhask...@hitachienergy.com www.hitachienergy.com

 

[Bhaskar YR]

praNAms Sri Sudhanshu Shekhar prabhuji
Hare Krishna

The example of mirage-water is most appropriate imho.

> When I was thinking about the suvarNAbharaNa I was just thinking about the 'practical utility' of this karaNa even after the dawn of jnana. As we know both vidyA and avidyA are vrutti-s only will take place in mind only. So after this jnana, jnAni would see a ring as ring only, necklace as necklace only and wear it at its appropriate place by knowing the substratum is gold only. When both the jnAni and ajnAni see the sheep they will see sheep only, and sheep vrutti only would general in both the minds but former will have the abedha drushti and later will have parichinna bedha drushti i.e. sheep is something different from him. The samadarshitva or Atmaikatva darshana would not annihilate the duality instead it sublates the duality. Hence it is called vyavahAra bAdhita jnana not vyavahAra abhAva jnana. When I was giving the water-foam-bubble-wave example I was having the bhAshyakAra analogy in sUtra bhAshya 2-1-13 where he gives this example ' samudrAdudakAtmanOnanyatvepi tadvikArANAM fena-veechee-taranga-budbudaadeenaaM etaretara vibhAgaH......na cha samudrAdudakaAtmanOnanyatvepi tadvikArANAM fenatarangaadeenaam etaretarabhAvApattirbhavati. Na cha teshAmitaretara bhAvAnApattAvapi samudrAtmanaH ananyatvaM bhavati. Though we cannot say bhOkru & bhOgya are one and the same in transactional reality it is ultimately not different from brahman. annaM annAda, shlOkakarta. Same drushti further explained by bhAshyakAra in geeta bhAshya : sarveshu brahmAdisthAvarAntareshu vishameshu sarvabhUteshu samaM nirvishesham brahmAtmaikatva vishayaM darshanaM jnAnaM yasya saH sarvatra samadarshanaH.

> And this karaNa atleast as per bhAmati vyAkhyAna would not go anywhere, as they have to use this karaNa to continue jnAnAbhyAsa even after the dawn of paramArtha jnAna and vivaraNa followers do need this to make it inert in a particular state called NS to have the literal experience of AtmaikatvaM.

> I am curious to know how mrugatrushNa is more appropriate example.

[Michael Chandra Cohen]

"Gaudapada Karika 3.32. When, following the instruction of scriptures and the teacher, the mind ceases to think as a consequence of the realisation of the Truth that is the Self, then the mind attains the state of not being the mind; in the absence of things to be perceived, it becomes a non-perceiver."

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[Michael Chandra Cohen]

Aum and Namaste,

Here are some citations that hopefully inform the conversation. 

First, as to the  absolute nondual necessity of JnAna; 

Second, as to the dependence of knower, knowing and known upon avidyA. 

NONDUALITY  Citations

·         “But when in dreamless sleep that nescience which sets up the appearance of beings other than the Self has ceased, there is no (apparent) entity separated from oneself as another. Then with what could one see, smell or understand what? The One is embraced by one’s own Self as intelligence (prajna), of the nature of self-luminous light. One is then all serene, with one’s desires attained, transparent as water, and all one on account of the absence of any second. For, if a second thing is distinguished, it is distinguished through nescience, and as that has now ceased, what is left is all one.

//… In the same way, my dear one, because they had no knowledge when they mingled with pure Being, all these creatures likewise, the tiger and so forth, have no knowledge of the fact when they have returned from pure Being. They are not aware, ‘I have returned from pure Being’. Chand. Bh. 6.9.1”

·         In the same way, one who was ignorant of the Self and who is awakened from this ignorance by the Vedic text (sruti) sees nothing other than his own Self. The Teacher (guru), the texts and he himself as deluded individual soul have all disappeared. (Nais Siddhi 4.37)

·         'There is no plurality here' (Brhad. 4.4.19)

·         'He goes from death to death who sees the appearance of plurality here' (Brhad 4.4.19)

·         'When, however, this soul makes in this one the smallest interval (difference), then, for him, there is fear' (Taitt. 2.7),

·         'Assuredly it is from a second (thing) that fear arises' (Brhad. 1.4.2)

·         'But there is no second thing' (Brhad. 4.3.24)

·         'For where there is an appearance of duality ... (but when all has become his own Self, then what could a person see, and with what?)' (Brhad. 2.4.14).
·         “How can distinction and non-distinction which are contrary to each other be both possible? (We reply)—this is no fault, because we have already established in several proper places, that according to the maxim of “The Akasha and the Akasha of the pot”, both are possible. Besides when the non-distinction (between the two) comes to be realized, by means of such reference to non-distinction, as “That thou art”, then the nature of the transmigratory existence of the Jiva-Self, and the creative activity of Brahma, both vanish, on account of the removal of the entire set of transactions, depending upon the notion of distinction which is but only a display of false-ignorance, by true knowledge. BSbh II. i. 23]

·         It is like this. As a man embraced by a woman he loves is oblivious to everything within or without, so this person embraced by the self (Atman) consisting of knowledge is oblivious to everything within or without (BU 4.3.21)

·         "That it ·does not' see in that ·state is because, although seeing then It does not see; for the vision of the witness can never be lost, because it is immortal. But there is not that second thing separate from it which it can see. BrU4.3.23

·         The infinite is that where one does not see anything else, does not hear anything else, and does not understand anything else (CU 7.24.1)

·         When, however, the Whole has become one’s very self (tman), then who is there for one to smell and by what means? Who is there for one to see and by what means? Who is there for one to hear and by what means? Who is there for one to see and by what means? Who is there for one to hear and by what means? Who is there for one to greet and by what means? Who is there for one to think and by what means. Who is there for one to perceive and by what means? (BU 2.4.14 & BU 4.5.15.)

Eight Upanishads With Sankarabhashyam Swami Gambhirananda Vol 1 1966

NO PRAMATA, PRAMANA, PRAMEYA

·         “In the recognition that there is no second thing, duality resolves” – jnate dvaitam no vidyate GK 1.18

·         Nanu: The pramanas must be invalid since they since they give knowledge about objects that are unreal. Thus instruction itself loses its point in that it cannot lead to truth or liberation.
Sankara’s reply: yes, it is quite true the pramanas are no less mithya than are the objects they propose to reveal however they may “produce” something real no less than death from a fancied snakebite. But, it is further argued, death is as unreal as its cause and we are looking for a real effect out of an unreal cause.  BS bh 2.1.14

·         "That it ·does not' see in that ·state is because, although seeing then It does not see; for the vision of the witness can never be lost, because it is immortal. But there is not that second thing separate from it which it can see. BrU4.3.23

·         This mutual superimposition of the non-Self and the Self (atmānatmanor itaretara adhyāsaṁ) that is called avidya (avidya akhyam) is the basis (puraskṛtya) on which rest all the practical distinctions between means of knowledge and objects of knowledge (sarve pramāṇa prameya)….
 Samadhana: This is being explained. (a)When there is no possibility of one who is devoid of identification with ‘I’ and ‘mine’ with regard to the body and sense organs, to become a cognizer, the means of knowledge is inoperative for without (the participation of) the sense organs the means of knowledge such as perception cannot operate. (b)The function of the sense organs is not possible without a basis (body). (c)Nor does one become engaged in activity without attributing the notion ‘I’ to the body. When all these do not combine the Self that is unattached cannot become a cognizer, there is no operation of the means of knowledge. Therefore, the means of knowledge such as perception and the scriptures are meant only for those that remain on the plane of avidya. (adhyasa bhasya)

·         It is like this. As a man embraced by a woman he loves is oblivious to everything within or without, so this person embraced by the self (Atman) consisting of knowledge is oblivious to everything within or without (BU 4.3.21)

·         "That it ·does not' see in that ·state is because, although seeing then It does not see; for the vision of the witness can never be lost, because it is immortal. But there is not that second thing separate from it which it can see. BrU4.3.23

·        “'0 good looking one, in the beginning this was Existence alone, One only, without a second.” ChU 6.2.1

·        Bhasya: “Vediintin: No. Since the instruction of oneness is given by saying 'Thou art That', there is no scope for the difference between the basis and the thing supported, and similarly, there can be no scope of any vision with regard to oneself, since it has been ascertained in the sixth chapter that Truth is one Existence, without a second; and also in Upani~adic texts like: , ... established in this unperceivable, bodiless ... Brahman' (Tai. II.7.1); 'His form does not exist within the range of vision' (Ka.11.3.9); 'Through what, 0 Maitreyi, should one know the knower?' (Br. 11.4.14). … The idea is that this (finitude) exists during the period of ignorance. It is like a thing seen in a dream, which exists only during that period, before waking.”

·        “He goes from death to death who sees any difference here.” KaU 2.1.10

·        And this name and form are merely imagined in the Absolute, like day and night in the sun. From the standpoint of the highest truth, they do not exist.”Tait Bh 2.8

·        Neither from itself nor from something else is anything born. Neither an existent nor a non-existent … is born. GK 4.22

·        “Through the mind alone (It) is to be realised. There is no difference whatsoever in It. He goes from death to death, who sees difference, as it were, in It.” Br 4.4.19

·        This duality existing of the knower and the knowable is only the vibration of the citta. …GK4.72

·        … But there is no duality there GK4.75

·        Because the Imperishable is unmanifest, He is not accessible to words and cannot therefore be defined. He is unmanifest, not manifest to any of the organs of knowledge.” (BGbh 12 3)

·        It is known to him to whom It is unknown; he does not know to whom it is known. It is unknown to those who know well, and known to those who do not know. Ke 2.3.

·        But in a context where the unconditioned Self is one, there can neither be knowing by oneself not by another. Kebh2.4

·        "For when there is duality, as it were, then one… knows another. But when everything has become the Self, then what should one …know and through what? "Br2.4.14

On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 8:22 AM Sudhanshu Shekhar via Advaita-l <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

Hari Om Bhaskar ji.

Clay-pot and water-wave examples correspond to material causality. That is
superimposed in Brahman through ajnAna. The material causality of ajnAna
vis-a-vis-world is superimposed in Brahman.

The non-difference of world with Brahman in the view of jnAnI is similar to
non-difference of mirage-water with desert. One sees the mirage-water,
understands it to be desert appearing illusorily as water and does not go
there to quench one's thirst. JnAnI sees the world, understands it to be
Brahman appearing illusorily as world and is unaffected.

Clay-pot or water-wave indicate causality to Brahman whereas mirage-water
depicts the ultimate.

तदिति सर्वनाम, सर्वं च ब्रह्म, तस्य नाम तदिति, तद्भावः तत्त्वम् ,
ब्रह्मणो याथात्म्यम् । तत् द्रष्टुं शीलं येषां ते तत्त्वदर्शिनः, तैः
तत्त्वदर्शिभिः ।

 त्वमपि तत्त्वदर्शिनां दृष्टिमाश्रित्य शोकं मोहं च हित्वा शीतोष्णादीनि
नियतानियतरूपाणि द्वन्द्वानि ‘विकारोऽयमसन्नेव मरीचिजलवन्मिथ्यावभासते’
इति मनसि निश्चित्य तितिक्षस्व इत्यभिप्रायः ॥
१६ ॥
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[Michael Chandra Cohen]

Forwarded Conversation
Subject: [Advaita-l] The fate of mind after realization
------------------------

From: Bhaskar YR via Advaita-l <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 1:18 AM
To: Advaita-L <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Cc: Bhaskar YR <bhask...@hitachienergy.com>

praNAms
Hare Krishna

We all agree we need the instrument (karaNa) to know / realize Atman.  bhagavatpAda too acknowledges it by saying for the Atma darshana karaNa is susamskruta mana.  Shruti also says Upanishad parama siddhAnta that there is no duality whatsoever to be realized through mana!!  So, I think there is no second opinion on this when it comes to prior requirement of suitable karaNa (instrument) to know the what is unknown.  Now the question is what happens to this karaNa in general and mind in particular in the jnAni after realizing that he is ekamevAdviteeyaM ??  is it going to vanish in thin air like snake vanishes in thin air after realizing the true svarUpa of rope??  Is the jnAni would suddenly become a brain-dead person after realizing he is brahman??  I don't think so.  I don't think it is appropriate to give the example of snake-rope or nacre-silver to decide the fate of mind. Shankara somewhere explains even after samyak jnana the regular activity of the speech, mana and body would continue as it is.  So, like snake, silver these karaNa-s would not vanish, like barren woman's son it is nor atyanta abhAva OTOH like foam, bubble, waves it would continue to appear even after realizing that it is water only and nothing but water. So, mrutpinda, survaNAbharaNa etc. would be more appropriate here.  In kArika or somewhere else I have read karaNa would be realized as  Atman only like realizing ornaments are nothing but gold.  An iron ball in fire looks like fire is the example given here.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar

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----------
From: Kuntimaddi Sadananda via Advaita-l <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 2:12 AM
To: Advaita-L <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Cc: Kuntimaddi Sadananda <kuntima...@yahoo.com>

Bhaskarji - Only the confused mind is lost. I find only the disciples of Ramana Maharshi argue that the mind is gone. What is understood is everything is nothing but Brahman that I am. At the vyaavaharika level, jnaani still operates like anyone - but while transacting he does not lose sight of the fact that everything is either Vibhuti of the Lord or Vibhuuti of the Self. Smatvam only from the understanding point. Like a scientist understands that everything is nothing but electrons, protons, and neutrons - yet garbage is garbage and delicious food is delicious food. 
My 2c.
Hari Om!Sadananda

----------
From: Sudhanshu Shekhar via Advaita-l <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 2:44 AM
To: Kuntimaddi Sadananda <kuntima...@yahoo.com>, A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Cc: Sudhanshu Shekhar <sudhans...@gmail.com>

The example of mirage-water is most appropriate imho.

On Mon, 23 Jan, 2023, 12:42 pm Kuntimaddi Sadananda via Advaita-l, <

----------
From: 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin <adva...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 5:10 AM
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org>, Kuntimaddi Sadananda <kuntima...@yahoo.com>, adva...@googlegroups.com <adva...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Sudhanshu Shekhar <sudhans...@gmail.com>

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From: Sudhanshu Shekhar via Advaita-l <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 8:22 AM
To: Bhaskar YR <bhask...@hitachienergy.com>
Cc: Sudhanshu Shekhar <sudhans...@gmail.com>, A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org>, Kuntimaddi Sadananda <kuntima...@yahoo.com>, <adva...@googlegroups.com>

Hari Om Bhaskar ji.

Clay-pot and water-wave examples correspond to material causality. That is
superimposed in Brahman through ajnAna. The material causality of ajnAna
vis-a-vis-world is superimposed in Brahman.

The non-difference of world with Brahman in the view of jnAnI is similar to
non-difference of mirage-water with desert. One sees the mirage-water,
understands it to be desert appearing illusorily as water and does not go
there to quench one's thirst. JnAnI sees the world, understands it to be
Brahman appearing illusorily as world and is unaffected.

Clay-pot or water-wave indicate causality to Brahman whereas mirage-water
depicts the ultimate.

तदिति सर्वनाम, सर्वं च ब्रह्म, तस्य नाम तदिति, तद्भावः तत्त्वम् ,
ब्रह्मणो याथात्म्यम् । तत् द्रष्टुं शीलं येषां ते तत्त्वदर्शिनः, तैः
तत्त्वदर्शिभिः ।

 त्वमपि तत्त्वदर्शिनां दृष्टिमाश्रित्य शोकं मोहं च हित्वा शीतोष्णादीनि
नियतानियतरूपाणि द्वन्द्वानि ‘विकारोऽयमसन्नेव मरीचिजलवन्मिथ्यावभासते’
इति मनसि निश्चित्य तितिक्षस्व इत्यभिप्रायः ॥
१६ ॥

----------
From: Michael Chandra Cohen <michaelc...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 8:43 AM
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Cc: Bhaskar YR <bhask...@hitachienergy.com>, Sudhanshu Shekhar <sudhans...@gmail.com>, A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org>, Kuntimaddi Sadananda <kuntima...@yahoo.com>, <adva...@googlegroups.com>

[Akilesh Ayyar]

I’ll just note in this discussion that as far as Ramana Maharshi’s views — or rather my interpretation of them — the mind is ‘gone’ in the sense that it never existed. The whole egoic point of view is what sees both ignorance and the removal of ignorance, the mind ‘before’ the search and ‘after’ it. Asking whether the jnani’s mind continues after jnana is itself based in the wrong point of view; the question is founded on wrong assumptions. That is the point.

Akilesh Ayyar

Spiritual guidance - http://www.siftingtothetruth.com/

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Akileshji and friends,

There you are. The Jivanmukta achieves the Manah-Shunya state, and eventually gets liberated when he or she leaves the physical and the Sukshma bodies.

My 2 cents

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

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[sreenivasa murthy]

Dear Sri Sunil Bhattachariya,

 Your 2cents coiin which you have offered is a KhOTA coin.

When it is tested in the laboratary of Upanishads it will be found so.

It is a useless one.

ahamevEdagM sarvam || Chandogya 7-25-1

AtmaivEdagM sarvam || Chandogya 7-25-2

AtmA advaitaH || Mandukya mantra7

Please study and these mantras with Sri Shankara's commentary

and ponder over in depth.

You yourself will realize that the statement of yours is  erroneous.

Who is a Jivanmukta?

Is he an entity?

Have you enquired?

With respectful pranams,

Sreenivasa Murthy

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAP4HB99%3D0G%3DH%3DkMuLgXRPKGUG53GyDQC6davUkUoKP9oPwg0QA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Bhaskar YR]

praNAms Sri Akhilesh Ayyar prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

I’ll just note in this discussion that as far as Ramana Maharshi’s views — or rather my interpretation of them — the mind is ‘gone’ in the sense that it never existed.

 

• From this view point why only mind there is nothing existed at all at any point of time apart from brahman and ONLY brahman exists.  So IMHO there is no point in insisting ONLY mind is never existed.  But we are talking about the paramArtha jnana and its achievement through karaNa called mana, mananAdi abhyAsa with the help of Acharya upadesha, pramANa janita jnana, vedAnta vAkya janya jnana etc. So in this scenario, we have to talk about certain things that there is a requirement of instrument and usage of this instrument and usefulness and status of this instrument after the goal is achieved.  It can be noted if we jump to the paramArtha to discuss these things, there is absolutely no need to discuss anything since in that state no question, no answer, no ramaNa maharshi, his teachings, his listeners, mumukshu-s, achievers, jnAni-s etc.  We have to keep quiet ( chumma iru 😊)

 

The whole egoic point of view is what sees both ignorance and the removal of ignorance, the mind ‘before’ the search and ‘after’ it. Asking whether the jnani’s mind continues after jnana is itself based in the wrong point of view; the question is founded on wrong assumptions. That is the point.

 

Ø     It is the mananaM part in vedAnta jignAsa and we are dealing with this issue where there is vyavahAra called shravaNa, manana & nidhidhyAsana by a jnAtru.  Where pramAtru, pramANa and prameya hold sway.  In this sequence the question is quite appropriate to investigate.  If you don’t agree, then whole of the shAstra vyavahAra would go for the toss. And in that absolute non-dual state even ramaNa’s teachings which we are holding as valid pramANa would become mute since there is absolute non-duality in that state.  So, IMO it is always better to keep in mind the context in which we are discussing these issues. 

[Bhaskar YR]

praNAms Sri Sunil Bhattacharjya prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

There you are. The Jivanmukta achieves the Manah-Shunya state,

 

• Jeevan mukta achieves paripUrNa jnana and it is not shUnya state it is all encompassing state where nothing left.  gaudapAda kArika explains this paramAtma tattva drushti beautifully in 2-38 :  tattvaM AdhyAtmikaM drushtvA tattvaM drushtyA tu bAhyataH…So, it is not shUnya state it is covering all with ekatva drushti or Atmaikatva drushti or samyak darshana.

 

and eventually gets liberated when he or she leaves the physical and the Sukshma bodies.

 

Ø     The very liberation means realizing that ashareeratvaM of Atman is svAbhAvika. 

[Akilesh Ayyar]

Namaste,

It is important to note that the paramartha viewpoint IS part of the vedanta jignasa. The question of whether the jnani’s mind continues after jnana may certainly be asked: but the answer that this question comes from the wrong viewpoint is itself meant to ring a bell in the ripe aspirant… and to help an unripe aspirant become riper. It is not merely “there is no need to discuss anything.” What is being discussed precisely is the movement from the wrong viewpoint to the “right viewpoint.” And the right viewpoint then itself becomes another wrong viewpoint, because all viewpoints are wrong. And this very movement is itself a pointer to the truth… 

Akilesh Ayyar

Spiritual guidance - http://www.siftingtothetruth.com/

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Sreenivasa Murthyji,

Are you joking?

In case you really got confused by reading my mail, let me assure you that the upanishad talks about the Manah-Shunya state of the Jnani, who reaches the state of Asamprajna Samadhi (or Nirvikalpa samadhi).

Anyway, let me simplify it a bit. In the beginning of the Original Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna told Arjuna at the very beginning of the Original Bhagavad Gita  that what was there in the past or what would be there in future is not there now and that implies   what is now is as good as not there, i.e., the  Vyavaharika world is illusionary.  The Sthitaprajna or the Jivanmukta knows this very well  and his or her manah is not affected by the illusionary Vyavaharika world,i.e., he or she is the manah-shunya state.

My 2 cents

skb

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear friends,

There was a slip of pen. Please read the last sentence as follows:

The Sthitaprajna or the Jivanmukta knows this very well  and his or her manah is not affected by the illusionary Vyavaharika world,i.e., he or she is in  the manah-shunya state.

Best

skb

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Thank you Bhaskarji for trying to prove that the Upanishad is wrong in saying about the Manah-Shunya state.

Jai Bhagavan ShriKrishnajiki.

skb

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Bhaskarji,

The upanishads are in Vedic sanskrit and not in Paninian-sanskrit. Earlier, a couple of times I mentioned in this august forum, that the Vedic Sanskrit is not for literal translation. Kindly keep this in mind and it will help you in interpreting  the Upanishads statements like jaganmithya or reference to the words like Manha-shunya etc. Manahshunya is the state when the  manovritti nirodha has taken place. Hope this helps you to understand the meaning of Manahshunya.

Krishnam Vande Jagadgurum

skb

On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 9:02 PM 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin <adva...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

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[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Sunil Ji,

Reg  <<  The Sthitaprajna or the Jivanmukta knows this very well  and his or her manah is not affected by the illusionary Vyavaharika world,i.e., he or she is in  the manah-shunya state >>,

When his or her manah is not affected by the illusionary Vyavaharika  world, what **exists**  and is experienced as such by him/her  is just Atman/Brahman and not shunya/void.  That represents sarvAtmabhAva. Atman being AnandasvarUpa,  why not say   << he or she is in  the manah-Ananda  state >>.  

Regards

Chandramouli

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAP4HB9-qpi47JAHroL3JtKdbxQsuzzWEDAnA45jWKrdtO%2BuM2Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Rao Ji,

Reg  <<  In BG the stitha prajna, kshetrajna, parabhakta, gunateeta - all these states seem to be different ways to express the state of one experiencing atmanubhava  >>,

The moment we say ** one experiencing atmanubhava **,  we are in triputi, accepting the distinction of  Experiencer, Experienced and  Experience.  **aham** is considered as distinct from  manas , and identifies itself with Manas. But  as a result of  jnAna,   everything is cognized as nondistinct  from *Ananda* which is AtmasvarUpa. Hence the experience of unbounded Ananda in this state.

** stitha prajna, kshetrajna, parabhakta, gunateeta ** can have,  and do alternate between,  two states at will, one termed NS (of Advaita  Sidhanta, not to be confused with the NS of Yoga Shastra) and the other termed vyAvaharika. They do so effortlessly, because the change is due to jnAna. What is stated above , ** one experiencing atmanubhava  **,  is experiential Ananda, and is relevant in the latter category namely vyAvahArika state. In the former case, NS of Advaita Siddhanta,  there is no triputi of  ** Experiencer, Experienced and  Experience**,  there is no experience as such, and  mind **becomes**  or **assumes** the form of Atman itself.

This is my understanding.

Regards

Chandramouli

On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 8:02 PM VTCS Rao via Advaita-l <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

Namaste Chandramouli ji

As Sankara says "mano buddhi ahankara chittani naaham", atmanubhava recognizes that it is beyond these (manah etc)

In BG the stitha prajna, kshetrajna, parabhakta, gunateeta - all these states seem to be different ways to express the state of one experiencing atmanubhava. Hari 🕉

Best Regards/  VTCS


________________________________
From: Advaita-l <advaita-...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> on behalf of H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Sent: Wednesday, 25 January 2023, 2:50 pm
To: adva...@googlegroups.com <adva...@googlegroups.com>; A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Cc: H S Chandramouli <hschand...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] [advaitin] RE:  The fate of mind after realization

Namaste Sunil Ji,

Reg  <<  *The Sthitaprajna or the Jivanmukta knows this very well  and his

or her manah is not affected by the illusionary Vyavaharika world,i.e., he

or she is in  the manah-shunya state >>,*

When his or her manah is not affected by the *illusionary Vyavaharika * world,

what **exists**  and is experienced as such by him/her  is just
Atman/Brahman and not shunya/void.  That represents sarvAtmabhAva. Atman

being AnandasvarUpa,  why not say   << *he or she is in  the manah-Ananda
 state >>.*

Regards

Chandramouli

On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 10:53 PM sunil bhattacharjya <
skbhatt...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear friends,
>
> There was a slip of pen. Please read the last sentence as follows:
>

> * The Sthitaprajna or the Jivanmukta knows this very well  and his or her

> manah is not affected by the illusionary Vyavaharika world,i.e., he or she

> is in  the manah-shunya state.*

>>> There you are. The Jivanmukta achieves the *Manah-Shunya state*, and

>>> eventually gets liberated when he or she leaves the physical and the
>>> Sukshma bodies.
>>>
>>> My 2 cents
>>> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 8:08 AM Akilesh Ayyar <
>>> aki...@siftingtothetruth.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I’ll just note in this discussion that as far as Ramana Maharshi’s views
>>> — or rather my interpretation of them — the mind is ‘gone’ in the sense
>>> that it never existed. The whole egoic point of view is what sees both
>>> ignorance and the removal of ignorance, the mind ‘before’ the search and
>>> ‘after’ it. Asking whether the jnani’s mind continues after jnana is itself
>>> based in the wrong point of view; the question is founded on wrong
>>> assumptions. That is the point.
>>>
>>> Akilesh Ayyar

>>> Spiritual guidance - https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.siftingtothetruth.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C9e2d8795680e4e99c35008dafeb55d7c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638102352181360680%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=T0KDUeRFn1ysq3Yw8oZiTm9exieghM4lX5uorc929Eo%3D&reserved=0

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Chandramouliji,

you posed the question:

why not say   << he or she is in  the manah-Ananda  state >>

I regret to have to state that you have not understood the concept of Manah-Shunya at all. When Jnana dawns in the yogi and he fully realizes the impermanence of the Vyavahaika world, his Ahamkara reduces and finally a stage comes when his interaction with the Vyavaharika world vanishes and the activity of the Manah becomes defunct or nil.

Jai Shri Krishnajiki

skb

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[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Sunil Ji,

Reg  <<  When Jnana dawns in the yogi and he fully realizes

the impermanence of the Vyavahaika world, his Ahamkara reduces and finally
a stage comes when his interaction with the Vyavaharika world vanishes and

the activity of the Manah becomes defunct or nil  >>,

Can you please give a reference to any text wherein this concept has been elaborated.

Regards

Chandramouli

On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 11:18 PM sunil bhattacharjya via Advaita-l <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

Dear Chandramouliji,

you posed the question:

why not say   << *he or she is in  the manah-Ananda  state >>*

I regret to have to state that you have not understood the concept of

*Manah-Shunya* at all. When Jnana dawns in the yogi and he fully realizes

the impermanence of the Vyavahaika world, his Ahamkara reduces and finally
a stage comes when his interaction with the Vyavaharika world vanishes and
the activity of the Manah becomes defunct or nil.

Jai Shri Krishnajiki
skb

On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 1:20 AM H S Chandramouli <hschand...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Namaste Sunil Ji,
>

> Reg  <<  *The Sthitaprajna or the Jivanmukta knows this very well  and

> his or her manah is not affected by the illusionary Vyavaharika

> world,i.e., he or she is in  the manah-shunya state >>,*
>
> When his or her manah is not affected by the *illusionary Vyavaharika * world,

> what **exists**  and is experienced as such by him/her  is just
> Atman/Brahman and not shunya/void.  That represents sarvAtmabhAva. Atman

> being AnandasvarUpa,  why not say   << *he or she is in  the manah-Ananda
>  state >>.*

>
> Regards
>
> Chandramouli
>
> On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 10:53 PM sunil bhattacharjya <
> skbhatt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear friends,
>>
>> There was a slip of pen. Please read the last sentence as follows:
>>

>> * The Sthitaprajna or the Jivanmukta knows this very well  and his or her

>> manah is not affected by the illusionary Vyavaharika world,i.e., he or she

>> is in  the manah-shunya state.*

>>>> There you are. The Jivanmukta achieves the *Manah-Shunya state*, and

>>>> eventually gets liberated when he or she leaves the physical and the
>>>> Sukshma bodies.
>>>>
>>>> My 2 cents
>>>> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 8:08 AM Akilesh Ayyar <
>>>> aki...@siftingtothetruth.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I’ll just note in this discussion that as far as Ramana Maharshi’s
>>>> views — or rather my interpretation of them — the mind is ‘gone’ in the
>>>> sense that it never existed. The whole egoic point of view is what sees
>>>> both ignorance and the removal of ignorance, the mind ‘before’ the search
>>>> and ‘after’ it. Asking whether the jnani’s mind continues after jnana is
>>>> itself based in the wrong point of view; the question is founded on wrong
>>>> assumptions. That is the point.
>>>>
>>>> Akilesh Ayyar
>>>> Spiritual guidance - http://www.siftingtothetruth.com/
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "advaitin" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to advaitin+u...@googlegroups.com.
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>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAJbmbsFk0Q2eMaksLrcJ91aXg4o2ZdrkD5edsxPuvDW9B1Mczg%40mail.gmail.com

>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAJbmbsFk0Q2eMaksLrcJ91aXg4o2ZdrkD5edsxPuvDW9B1Mczg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>> .

>>>>
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>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAP4HB99%3D0G%3DH%3DkMuLgXRPKGUG53GyDQC6davUkUoKP9oPwg0QA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>> .

>>>>
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[Ganesh B]

Namaste all,

I am new here. I would like to humbly contribute to this discussion with some of my thoughts. Thanks for the opportunity.

The Self has no vichara. That which makes the enquiry is the ego.

The ‘I’ about which the enquiry is made is also the ego. As the result of the enquiry the ego ceases to exist and only the Self is found to exist.

~ Ramana Maharshi

यथा बुद्ध्याद्याहृतस्य शब्दाद्यर्थस्य अविक्रिय एव सन् बुद्धिवृत्त्यविवेकविज्ञानेन अविद्यया उपलब्धा आत्मा कल्प्यते, एवमेव आत्मानात्मविवेकज्ञानेन बुद्धिवृत्त्या विद्यया असत्यरूपयैव परमार्थतः अविक्रिय एव आत्मा विद्वानुच्यते ।

~ Shankara Bh Gita 2.21

The essence of this passage by Shankara is that there are two possibilities where the Self is erroneously understood as a 'knower'.

1. Due to (ajnana) lack of discrimination (viveka) bw Atma-Anatma (self and non-self). The self sees various objects and understands oneself as the 'knower' of various sense objects.

2. Similarly, the self, even with discrimination (viveka) even with Jnana, bw Self and Non-self (Atma-Anatma) understands oneself as the 'knower' of the (true) Self.

But neither is true as the Self is beyond the Pramata Prameya.

The Self is the knower (sarvajnatvam) of even 'knowing' and 'not knowing'. And remains unaffected by both the phenomena of knowing the self and of not knowing the self.

The body continues to operate and there is a natural intelligence that facilitates the operations of day to day activities of the body. When the body feels hungry it has the natural intelligence that prompts the body to eat and when you have to cross a road there is a natural intelligence that operates in safely crossing the road amidst the traffic.

आत्मा असंहतः (Shankara Bh Gita 2.21) - Atma has no relation whatsoever with the body mind complex.

So the question such as what happens to the mind of a Jnani does not arise at all. Only from an onlookers point of view, it seems that a jnani is engaged in thinking and performing various activities.

As Ramana Maharshi said - "There is no 'Jnani' there is only 'Jnanam' 

Both Shankara and Ramana have shown by their teachings the same truth.

यस्यमतं तस्य मतं मतं यस्य न वेद सः।

अविज्ञातं विजानतां विज्ञातमविजानताम् ॥

(Kenopanishad) 

It is known by those who know it not. And it is not known by those who know.

It (remains) unknown for a (real) 'knower' and known for the  'non-knower'.

“கண்டவர் விண்டிலர் 

விண்டவர் கண்டிலர்”

Kandavar vindilar 

Vindavar kandilar

one who has seen, doesn’t speak of it. And one who speaks of it, hasn’t seen it.

Namaskarams

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Chandramouliji,

In Sankhya you will find what manah (मनः) is, and how it is a part of the Sukshma sarrera and how Manah controls the Indriyas.

Best

skb

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[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Sunil Ji,

I  asked for a reference to any text wherein the concept of  *Manah-Shunya* is elaborated. Instead of providing this, you are directing me to a site which does not show anything except the two words **मनः** in sanskrit and **mana** in english !!! That too you mention **In Sankhya**. I dont know what you mean by this. I thought we are discussing about Advaita Siddhanta.

Anyway I am stopping with this.

Regards

On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 12:13 AM sunil bhattacharjya via Advaita-l <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

Chandramouliji,

In Sankhya you will find what manah (मनः

<https://translate.glosbe.com/en-sa/mind>) is, and how it is a part of the

Sukshma sarrera and how Manah controls the Indriyas.

Best
skb

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[Bhaskar YR]

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

svarUpa shUnya ultimate state as samAdhi is bhAmati stand, as per Sri SSS’s observation with regard to this school they say : atra nidhidhyAsitavyaH eti dhyAnOpadeshaH drashtavyaH eti samAdheH tathAhuH tadeva dhyAnaM arthamAtra nirbhAsaM ‘svarUpa shUnyamiva’ samAdhiH eti.  (bhAmati vyAkhyAna on br.man. bhAshya).  No need to highlight here vyAkhyAnakAra directly imports here yOga sUtra of Patanjali to interpret vedAntic dhyAna and nidhidhyAsana.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

Bhaskar YR

 

From: adva...@googlegroups.com <adva...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of H S Chandramouli
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2023 1:38 PM
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org>; Advaitin <adva...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] [advaitin] RE: The fate of mind after realization

 

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Chandramouliji,

There was a typo. Please read  "Sukshma sarrera" as "Sukshma shareera (शरीर śarīra)"

Jai Kapil Mahamunijiki.

skb

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Mr. Chandramouli,

It will nice if you please don't hesitate to tell me a bit about your background, as I am wondering why you are not being able to understand the very simple meaning of the sanskrit word "Manah. Understanding what is Manah is very crucial for understanding Sankhya, which was  taught by the Sage Kapila, an avatara of Lord Vishnu. The Manah is a part of our Subtle Body or Sukshma shareera, and it is the Mahah, which makes us interact with the Vyavaharika world.  That is why the concept of Manah-shunya concept is so very important.

If you can't agree with my view, we can surely  agree to disagree.

Sincerely,

skb

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Mr. Chandramouli,

Sorry there was a slip of pen. Please read the following:

it is the Mahah, which makes us interact with the Vyavaharika world.  That is why the concept of Manah-shunya concept is so very important.

ncorrected as follows:

it is the Manah, which makes us interact with the Vyavaharika world.  That is why the concept of Manah-shunya  is so very important.

Thanks,

skb

as c

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Manah Shunya is basically like Swarupa. Shunya

Sent from my iPhone

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[Ganesh B]

Namaste all, I would also like to share my thoughts as well - 

Both views are correct in respective sense. We should be aware that we shouldn't get caught in the net of the words - Shabda-Jaalam. As we do know there is always 'Vachyartha' and 'Lakshyartha'

When we delve in the Vachartha there will always be a difference of views. But when we look through the eyes of wisdom, from the eyes of the Sages - Lakshyartha, then all differences cease. 

Ramana Maharshi stated -

"The pure mind is itself Brahman; it therefore follows that Brahman is not other than the mind of the sage."

And again he also says in Upadesa Saram about manonasham -

नष्टमानसोत्कृष्टयोगिनः ।

कृत्यमस्ति किं स्वस्थितिं यतः ॥ १५॥

What action remains for an exalted Yogi whose mind has been completely destroyed and who is ever established in the Self ?

In the Shrutis also, on one had say -

यतो वाचो निवर्तन्ते अप्राप्य मनसा सह।

words turn back along with the mind, failing to reach brahman. 

And at the same time it also says -

‘मनसैवानुद्रष्टव्यम्’ (बृ. उ)

Through the mind alone It is to be realised. 

So in essence, we must also understand that what  we call mind/manas is nothing but Chidaabhaasa.

Mind derives its power from the Self. And without the Self the mind is nothing.

When the Shruti says ‘मनसैवानुद्रष्टव्यम्’ it means, we see the self through the Chidabasa only. Just like how we infer an eclipse through the light of the very sun itself and not otherwise. Similar the case when we say that clouds cover the sun. 

Also, Shrutis say यमेवैष वृणुते तेन लभ्यस्तस्यैष आत्मा विवृणुते तनूं स्वाम्‌ ॥

Only by him whom It chooses can It be won; to him this Self unveils its own body. (Tr. by Sri. Aurobindo)

Sri Chandrashekhara Bharati in his Vivekachoodamani Bhashya (verse 2) -

"ब्रह्मात्मना संस्थितिः मुक्तिः" इत्यत्रसंस्थितिशब्देन वासनाक्षय-मनोनाश-सहकृतस्वनुभवबोधकेन व्यञ्जिताः । तेन सालोक्य-सामीप्य-सारूप्य-सायुज्यानां मुख्यमुक्तित्वाभावश्च सूचितो भवति ।

In these above sense we can say either way, that Jnani has no mind at all. At the same time he does continue to have mind in the sense that a Jnanis mind itself is the Self.

Namaskarams

On Sat, 28 Jan 2023, 11:09 sunil bhattacharjya via Advaita-l, <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

Dear Sadanandaji - Namaste

You wrote as follows:
The question focuses on the Jnaani. Your statement appears to imply that
Jnaani after abiding in the knowledge will not have a mind or something
like that.

You also got me wrong. Chandramouliji contested the Manah-shunya state, by
saying that Instead of the yogi being Manah-Shunya he should have been
Manah-Ananda.  My reply was to say that he was wrong.

With the background that the Buddhi has, the Ahamkara develops the
attachment/bonding/desire with the Vyavaharika world, and accordingly
reacts with the vyavaharika world, through the Manah (the atirindriya),
engaging  the Jnanendriyas and the Karmendriyas (as needed), with the
Vyavaharika world.

Now, when the *Jnana* dawns in the Buddhi through *(i)* the grace of the
Guru, *(ii)* and / or through reading  the scriptures like the Vedas and
the Upanishads or the Ramayana and the Mahabharata etc., *(III)* and
followed by the appropriate meditation, the Ahamkara/Ego decreases and
consequently the attachment for the Vyvaharika world also disappears. Once
the attachment for the Vyavaharika world vanishes there is no role left
for the Manah and that is the *Manah-Shunya state*.

Hope this is clear now.

Jai Shri Krishna
Sunil KB





On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 7:01 PM Kuntimaddi Sadananda <
kuntima...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Sunilji - PraNAms
>
> Just for your information. Shree Chandramouliji is well-read person and I
> have learned a lot from him through his contributions to the Advaital list.
> You may not be familiar with his contributions.
>
> The question he posed based on your statement is correct.  I also agree
> with his assessment.
>
>
> The question concerns not about the meaning of manah and that it is part
> of anthahkarana.
>
>
> The question focuses on the Jnaani. Your statement appears to imply that
> Jnaani after abiding in the knowledge will not have a mind or something
> like that.
>
> Question - Did Krishna have the mind to teach Arjuna or not?
>
> Our understanding is that Jnaani uses his body, mind and intellect for
> loka kalyanam - BMI will be there until praarabda gets exhausted. The Lord
> will maintain the BMI to insure that those who are seeking knowledge will
> have an opportunity to learn.
>
> After seeing your mail, thought I should respond.
>
> Hari Om!
> Sadananda
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 11:16:15 PM GMT+5:30, sunil bhattacharjya

> via Advaita-l <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>
> Mr. Chandramouli,
>
> It will nice if you please don't hesitate to tell me a bit about your
> background, as I am wondering why you are not being able to understand the

> very simple meaning of the sanskrit word *"Manah.* Understanding what is
> *Manah* is very crucial for understanding *Sankhya*, which was  taught by
> the *Sage Kapila, an avatara of Lord Vishnu*. The *Manah* is a part of
> our *Subtle
> Body or Sukshma shareera*, and it is the* Mahah*, which makes us interact
> with the Vyavaharika world.  That is why the concept of *Manah-shunya*

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAEs%2B%2BdPyE0ojD9FTn2%2B3HFO1M4Q6wQwqT_%3DMcFJ%3DriAjRyx%2BVA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

> >
>
> > .
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Archives: https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>
> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>
> For assistance, contact:
> listm...@advaita-vedanta.org
>

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Sadanandaji - Namaste

You wrote as follows:

The question focuses on the Jnaani. Your statement appears to imply that Jnaani after abiding in the knowledge will not have a mind or something like that.

You also got me wrong. Chandramouliji contested the Manah-shunya state, by saying that Instead of the yogi being Manah-Shunya he should have been Manah-Ananda.  My reply was to say that he was wrong.

With the background that the Buddhi has, the Ahamkara develops the attachment/bonding/desire with the Vyavaharika world, and accordingly reacts with the vyavaharika world, through the Manah (the atirindriya), engaging  the Jnanendriyas and the Karmendriyas (as needed), with the Vyavaharika world.

Now, when the Jnana dawns in the Buddhi through (i) the grace of the Guru, (ii) and / or through reading  the scriptures like the Vedas and the Upanishads or the Ramayana and the Mahabharata etc., (III) and followed by the appropriate meditation, the Ahamkara/Ego decreases and consequently the attachment for the Vyvaharika world also disappears. Once the attachment for the Vyavaharika world vanishes there is no role left  for the Manah and that is the Manah-Shunya state.

Hope this is clear now.

Jai Shri Krishna

Sunil KB

 

On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 7:01 PM Kuntimaddi Sadananda <kuntima...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Sunilji - PraNAms

Just for your information. Shree Chandramouliji is well-read person and I have learned a lot from him through his contributions to the Advaital list. You may not be familiar with his contributions. 

The question he posed based on your statement is correct.  I also agree with his assessment. 

The question concerns not about the meaning of manah and that it is part of anthahkarana. 

The question focuses on the Jnaani. Your statement appears to imply that Jnaani after abiding in the knowledge will not have a mind or something like that.

Question - Did Krishna have the mind to teach Arjuna or not? 

Our understanding is that Jnaani uses his body, mind and intellect for loka kalyanam - BMI will be there until praarabda gets exhausted. The Lord will maintain the BMI to insure that those who are seeking knowledge will have an opportunity to learn. 

After seeing your mail, thought I should respond.

Hari Om!

Sadananda

On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 11:16:15 PM GMT+5:30, sunil bhattacharjya via Advaita-l <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

Mr. Chandramouli,

It will nice if you please don't hesitate to tell me a bit about your
background, as I am wondering why you are not being able to understand the

very simple meaning of the sanskrit word *"Manah.* Understanding what is
*Manah* is very crucial for understanding *Sankhya*, which was  taught by
the *Sage Kapila, an avatara of Lord Vishnu*. The *Manah* is a part of
our *Subtle

Body or Sukshma shareera*, and it is the* Mahah*, which makes us interact
with the Vyavaharika world.  That is why the concept of *Manah-shunya*

>> > email to advaitin+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

>> > To view this discussion on the web visit
>> >
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAEs%2B%2BdMbGNcU%2BEFX2w1WEj-_xo3gnM%3D8UJoqF7geJu6bamQDyw%40mail.gmail.com
>> > <
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAEs%2B%2BdMbGNcU%2BEFX2w1WEj-_xo3gnM%3D8UJoqF7geJu6bamQDyw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
>> >
>> > .
>> >
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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Sadanandaji, Namaste

You also asked a very interesting question:

 Did Krishna have the mind to teach Arjuna or not?

Lord Krishna is considered to be the Purna Brahma avatara. After the Mahabharata war ended, Arjuna requested Lord Krishna to give the discourse on the Bhagavad Gita, to him once again. The Lord expressed his inability to do that and said that he gave the earlier discourse (which also included the showing of the Vishva-roopa) when he was in a Yogayukta state. The mind of the Brahman is super-mind and we should not compare that with the mind of the ordinary people like us. I understand Shri Aurobindo talked about Super-Mind, but I am not a strict follower of him.

Jai Shri Krishna

Sunil KB

On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 9:40 PM sunil bhattacharjya <skbhatt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Sadanandaji - Namaste

You wrote as follows:

The question focuses on the Jnaani. Your statement appears to imply that Jnaani after abiding in the knowledge will not have a mind or something like that.

You also got me wrong. Chandramouliji contested the Manah-shunya state, by saying that Instead of the yogi being Manah-Shunya he should have been Manah-Ananda.  My reply was to say that he was wrong.

With the background that the Buddhi has, the Ahamkara develops the attachment/bonding/desire with the Vyavaharika world, and accordingly reacts with the vyavaharika world, through the Manah (the atirindriya), engaging  the Jnanendriyas and the Karmendriyas (as needed), with the Vyavaharika world.

Now, when the Jnana dawns in the Buddhi through (i) the grace of the Guru, (ii) and / or through reading  the scriptures like the Vedas and the Upanishads or the Ramayana and the Mahabharata etc., (III) and followed by the appropriate meditation, the Ahamkara/Ego decreases and consequently the attachment for the Vyvaharika world also disappears. Once the attachment for the Vyavaharika world vanishes there is no role left  for the Manah and that is the Manah-Shunya state.

Hope this is clear now.

Jai Shri Krishna

Sunil KB

[sunil bhattacharjya]

The discussion was on “Manahshunnya”, where there is no shabda-jaalam.  

My2 cents

Sent from my iPhone

[Ganesh B]

Namaste Sunil ji,

It was just to bring to attention that when we use some words such as मनः शून्य which in my limited knowledge i have not come across in Shankara Works or much in Adavita school of thought. But perhaps in the neo-advaita terminologies, many new words do get coined up (perhaps due to the need of our times as well). But traditionally, there is no Pramanam for this word. So naturally such terms can tend to be easily misunderstood.

So to avoid such needless confusion, it would be best to use the terminologies used by our Rishi Parampara.

So even though both sides of the arguments might only be conveying the same essence. But unfortunately the words we use end up causing difficulties and differences. This is what is a shabdajaalam. Trap by way of the words.

In the words of Adi Shankaracharya - असम्प्रदायवित् सर्वशास्त्रविदपि मूर्खवदेव उपेक्षणीयः

So it does matter what words we use - best if they are validated by our Rishi Parampara.

Humbly thoughts 🙏🏻🙏🏻

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Ganeshji,

Thank you for clarifying your fanciful stand, where you yourself referred to your own limited knowledge, as follows:

It was just to bring to attention that when we use some words such as मनः शून्य which in my limited knowledge i have not come across in Shankara Works or much in Adavita school of thought. But perhaps in the neo-advaita terminologies, many new words do get coined up (perhaps due to the need of our times as well). But traditionally, there is no Pramanam for this word. So naturally such terms can tend to be easily misunderstood.

I regret to have to state that it appears that you have for unknown reasons, ignored my earlier clear statements,  where I mentioned  the principles of Sankhya, on which my statements were  based.  I also mentioned earlier about how careless people have problems in understanding the Vedic-Upanishadic  Sanskrit texts with words like   "Jaganmithya" and "Manah-Shunya".

My 2 cents

skb

[Ganesh B]

Namaste Sunil ji

Buddy, you have to substantiate / support your argument, views or observation by quoting the scriptures ~ Pramana.

We can't just use some quotes or words just like that and except that in a discussion, the poorvapakshi will just accept whatever one says.

If you look at Bhashyas, each and every concepts or statements made by Shankara has been substantiated and supported by Shrutis. Not a single word hasn't been used just from the air.

The Purvapakshi will ask you where has it been stated to support your view. The onus lies on you to support yourself with a Pramana. 

Your argument is like a devout Christian telling that the Advent of Christ has been mentioned in Rig Veda why don't you accept Jesus Christ?

If you have read my previous posts, you would have noticed that I actually tried to validate your observation with Pramana. I got what you were trying to convey but you have to back it up with a Pramana. I have not come across the term Mana Shunya.

Mano Nasham - yes. Vasana Kshayam - yes. मनोव्यापाराभाव (bh Gita verse 2) 

But when you use loaded word like Shunyatvam you cant not just use it without backing it up with appropriate pramana.

If we don't back our argument or views with appropriate pramana, we will slowly end up diluting the authority of the Shruti. We are no pramana ourselves. What we say doesn't become a authority. We need to back what we quoting the Shrutis or a bonafide-Guru. 

This is the tradition. 

I hope this clarifies.

Namaskarams.

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear friends,

No sane Hindu, particulary an advaitin  would say that the Upanishadic statements have to be proved, say  the statements like Jaganmitthya need not be proved. These  need to be accepted, when explained.

My 2 cents,

skb