KSRAO, RE: [Sadhu Sanga] RE: Consciousness
Vasavada, Kashyap V
Dear KSRAO,
First, scientists have not agreed on the definition of consciousness! And before they can explain it “ in simple terms to non-scientists” they have to understand it themselves!! Of course, even how life arises from atoms is not clear. That is why there are all these endless debates.
By the way I have one argument in favor of possibility that atoms or particles may have some rudimentary consciousness. Biologists now know that the difference in genes between chimpanzee and humans may be at the most one percent. But genes can be turned on or off. That is what makes us different. Similarly, perhaps consciousness can be turned on or off. Of course I cannot prove that. Otherwise I will buy a ticket to Stockholm to collect my Nobel Prize!!
Best Regards,
Kashyap
From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:online_sa...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Srinivasa Rao Kankipati
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 10:55 AM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] RE: Consciousness
My feeling is that a dead man is not conscious, as you and I are. Of course, it is open for anyone to say that the atoms in the molecules of his dead cells are still endowed with consciousness. They have to say so because of the assumption of "universal consciousness" and a dead man's ultimate components cannot be devoid of that. But is it the same consciousness that the dead man had before he died? When we are talking about consciousness, which consciousness are we speaking of?
Then there are Realm Consciousness, Beyond-spacetime Consciousness, etc.
Scientists must first settle on the definition of consciousness and then explain it in simple terms to non-scientists." All simple things are described by small words, like life and love. When you dont know what you are talking, use big words: they fool small people" said someone.
On 23 June 2017 at 20:08, Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
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Dear Alex,
Thanks. May be my statement “progress practically zero” was too harsh. I am a retired physics professor in Indianapolis, U.S. (Indiana-Purdue Univ. Indianapolis) I am interested in knowing about scientific understanding of consciousness and Vedanta. But I have not done any research on this subject. My remark was based on talking to some neuroscientist friends and reading about lot of controversial theories such as presented on this website.
I will try to understand your paper and perhaps ask some questions in future. It is interesting that you mention that your approach is consistent with Advaita philosophy. Amit Goswami’s approach is interesting. But I do not like top down approach at this point. I might change my mind! Were you at the New Delhi conference in Dec. 2016? In that case we may have met for a short time.
Best Regards.
Kashyap
From: Alex Hankey [mailto:alexh...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 9:42 AM
To: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Subject: RE: Consciousness
RE: Your Statement:
But progress in understanding consciousness has been practically zero.
ME: Please read the attached paper(s), and then see if you still think that is so.
They are based on the approach used by Jonathan Shear and David Chalmers.
There are now approaching ten papers in this series, the latest dealing with cognition of language.
They put Amit Goswami's approach to rest.
And They agree with Advaita Vedanta perfectly.
Which University are you at?
Would you like to collaborate?
Alex Hankey in Bangalore
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Serge Patlavskiy
From: "Vasavada, Kashyap V" <vasa...@iupui.edu>
To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 10:17 PM
Subject: KSRAO, RE: [Sadhu Sanga] RE: Consciousness
Oliver Manuel
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Siegfried Bleher
Dear Serge,
You have stated:
“The case is that the overall (or entropic) state of a complex system (like an atom) depends equally on the activity of three factors simultaneously: on informational factor, on material factor, and on energetic factor. If the overall (or entropic) state of a complex system would depend ONLY on the activity of energetic factor, the complex system would absorb/release energy in a continuous manner.”
Would you please explain:
- how are you deciding on degree of complexity—i.e. do you consider the H-atom ‘complex’ even though it is integrable?
- Are you using a different method of evaluating complexity than one of the many kinds of existent measures such as thermodynamic entropy, or Kolmogorov (dynamical) entropy?
Best wishes,
Siegfried
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
Dear Serge,
Admittedly I have not done any work in the field of consciousness. So my opinion should be regarded as a “layman scientist’s opinion” in this field!
(S.P.) “There is no need to agree on the definition of consciousness”
(K.V.) This may be the central issue. Scientists cannot give theory without defining a quantity. I do not know how much science can proceed with 1pp. That defies the whole concept of science as an objective study where all observers get together with their observations and someone proposes a theory which explains maximum number of data. Quantum mechanics is part of science because even though a single observer gets subjective probabilistic results, after large number of data on identically prepared systems are added up, there is a unique result (statistically, not subjective any more). That is the hang up in understanding consciousness.
(S.P.) “The irony is that life arises not from atoms, but from complex systems due to reducing their overall entropy.
(K.V.) Well no matter how complex a system like amino acids, proteins, DNAs etc. is, it consists of atoms after all. Admittedly, it is possible that in large systems made out of atoms, some features not present in the original atoms might come out. But as far as I know, no one has succeeded in showing that. Otherwise we would understand how life came about as amino acids got together!
Previous e-mail.
(S.P.) Who is observer? Passive or Active?
There is still lot of controversy whether wave function collapses because of conscious observers or a machine can do it equally well. Personally I prefer Copenhagen interpretation where the collapse is taking place in observer’s mind, his/her knowledge about the system changes every time an observation is made. I have some reservations about this also. Of course everything is subject to the Born rule. I am not sure if it makes any difference to the system being measured whether the data are taken by a Nobel Laureate physicist or a poor illiterate villager who is taught to press buttons, but otherwise does not know what he is doing. Both would have the same qualia. I do not know what difference cognitive understanding of results makes to natural processes. Quantum mechanical reactions went on in the universe when no sentient life was present. Some people (e.g. Siegfried) say that the sentient people are reconstructing the history now! Ok. But there is still some doubt in mind about what would have happened if sentient objects never came up in the universe.
(S.P.) Human observer CANNOT observe quantum phenomena in principle. Quantum phenomena are UNOBSERVABLE.
(K.V.) I do not understand what you mean. If you prepare a superposed beam of electrons as
0.8 (spin up) + 0.6 (spin down)
QM guarantees that when you measure, say a million electrons, 640,000 electrons would have spin up and 360,000 electrons would have spin down. This is not classical result. You do have information about a quantum system. It is true, any random observer may get spin up or spin down. You are right if you say that we do not know spin of a single electron before measurement. But that is not my point.
(S.P.) The case is that the overall (or entropic) state of a complex system (like an atom) depends equally on the activity of three factors simultaneously: on informational factor, on material factor, and on energetic factor. If the overall (or entropic) state of a complex system would depend ONLY on the activity of energetic factor, the complex system would absorb/release energy in a continuous manner.
(K.V.) I do not understand your viewpoint. I suppose, it was decided long long time ago that discreteness (quanta) of energy absorption or emission came from the fact that the atomic or molecular energy levels are quantized. If I misunderstood your viewpoint let me know.
Best Regards.
Kashyap
.
From: Serge Patlavskiy [mailto:serge.pa...@rocketmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 4:14 PM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Tusar Nath Mohapatra
Dear Kashyap,
Your conjecture that consciousness can be turned on or off has the theoretical sanction of Sri Aurobindo which he has expounded upon in his famous chapter in The Life Divine:
http://incarnateword.in/sabcl/18/exclusive-concentration-of-consciousness-force-and-the-ignorance
This ingenuous formulation traces back to Tantra and has resonances in Heidegger's aletheia. Inability of physics to prove things during our lifetime need not prevent us from dwelling in sound ontological shelters so painstakingly built by seers like Sri Aurobindo.
Wishing you all the best,
Tusar (b.1955)
https://selforum.blogspot.in/2006/02/exclusive-concentration.html
https://selforum.blogspot.in/2008/07/there-is-problem-with-sri-aurobindos.html
https://selforum.blogspot.in/2017/06/death-and-destiny.html
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Serge Patlavskiy
From: Siegfried Bleher <SBl...@msn.com>
To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 2:28 AM
Subject: RE: KSRAO, RE: [Sadhu Sanga] RE: Consciousness
- how are you deciding on degree of complexity—i.e. do you consider the H-atom ‘complex’ even though it is integrable?
- Are you using a different method of evaluating complexity than one of the many kinds of existent measures such as thermodynamic entropy, or Kolmogorov (dynamical) entropy?
Serge Patlavskiy
Cc: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 12:02 PM
Subject: RE: KSRAO, RE: [Sadhu Sanga] RE: Consciousness