Rick Santorum, Chris Wallace, and Climate Change

[Brian Howell]

Watch Fox News interviewer Chris Wallace (son of 60 Minutes anchor Mike Wallace), take down Rick Santorum over climate change and Pope Francis' concern about the topic: (the Pope’s encyclical on climate change is expected to be issued on June 18th)

http://www.salon.com/2015/06/08/fox_news_chris_wallace_slams_rick_santorum_if_the_pope_cant_talk_about_climate_change_why_can_you/

[Scott Hotes]

I watched the video.  I am no fan of Santorum, but I thought he handled it pretty well.  As he himself says, although

he is not a scientist, as a politician it is in fact his job to weigh scientific results against political realities.

OTOH, it's not clear to me why the Pope is weighing in on this.  One thing I am confident of, any position the Pope

takes is also not objective (assuming that is the charge you are laying against Santorum here.)  The Pope is looking

at scientific evidence in the context of a world defined by Christian theology.  There is absolutely nothing objective

about that.  In this context Santorum is right.  The Pope's importance and the weight his proclamations carry is the direct

result of the many millions of people who follow him.  This is grounded in a kind of ethical and moral authority.  It

reminds me of famous actors speaking out on political issues.  Yes, we listen to them (God help us!) but it feels 

like there is an abuse of where they get their powerful voice from.

BTW, in my mind Santorum is laying out a fairly powerful argument here.  At least in the short term, he is positioning

climate change legislation as a direct threat to lower and lower-middle class Americans.  In particular in terms of 

the now very low (and stable) cost of energy, and our willingness to use it.

(BTW, I am certainly not defending his faulty math WRT flat taxes, that is a red herring WRT the above.)

Scott

On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 7:36 AM, Brian Howell <bdho...@gmail.com> wrote:

Watch Fox News interviewer Chris Wallace (son of 60 Minutes anchor Mike Wallace), take down Rick Santorum over climate change and Pope Francis' concern about the topic: (the Pope’s encyclical on climate change is expected to be issued on June 18th)

http://www.salon.com/2015/06/08/fox_news_chris_wallace_slams_rick_santorum_if_the_pope_cant_talk_about_climate_change_why_can_you/

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[Craig Good]

I’ve grown weary of the “settled science” straw man. What Santorum said about that was true enough, the problem being that scientists don’t actually use that phrase. I will say with a high degree of confidence that there is a scientific consensus, meaning that AGW is not considered even remotely controversial among climate scientists.

On the other hand, pace the Pope’s chem degree, I don’t see why his opinion about anything should matter more than any other celebrity’s. Appeal to authority is just as fallacious as straw men, and he has no authority in this field.

On Jun 8, 2015, at 07:36 AM, Brian Howell <bdho...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Watch Fox News interviewer Chris Wallace (son of 60 Minutes anchor Mike Wallace), take down Rick Santorum over climate change and Pope Francis' concern about the topic: (the Pope’s encyclical on climate change is expected to be issued on June 18th)

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Support the separation of school and state.

[Brian Howell]

Actually, the Pope has a degree in chemical engineering, and as such, he almost certainly has an understanding of the thermodynamics of gases and liquids. This, in turn, means he should be able the essential concepts that underpin global warming: how GHGs trap reflected and converted solar IR (short wave to long wave), heating the atmosphere.

http://www.engineersjournal.ie/habemus-chemia-pope-francis-journey-from-chemicals-to-cassocks/

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Brian Howell
www.linkedin.com/in/bdhowell

[jack saunders]

Millions believe the Pope has refined moral sensibilities that might logically bear on questions of taking risks for personal gain that may imperil others.

 

This is not to say there are not others, many nameless, who also capable of conscientious moral analysis -- but as a practical matter, the Pope tells more people how to think about things than the vast majority of leaders and influencers.

---

From: Craig Good <clg...@me.com>
To: Brian Howell <bdho...@gmail.com>
Cc: Ipse-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Ipse Dixit] Rick Santorum, Chris Wallace, and Climate Change

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[Craig Good]

At this point I should just bow out of this conversation. I'll just point out that understanding basic principles doesn't convey any kind of authority, and scientists, like the rest of us, are on shaky ground when they opine outside their specialty.

[Brian Howell]

At what level of understanding does one become an authority? Being an authority is a relative thing, and Pope Francis is certainly an authority in this regard, relative to the talking heads on Fox News who have no training in the scientific method, let alone his area of education. I believe a working knowledge of thermodynamics is more than sufficient to understand the explicated data and formulated models of the IPCC and other researchers. That puts him ahead of many billions of people, who wouldn’t know entropy from endothermic. Is that enough to speak for all Catholics? Maybe not. Probably not, I'll grant you. But do you think he came to his conclusions on climate change utterly on his own? The Church does have its own scientists: the Big Bang was first conjectured by Georges Lemître, a Jesuit priest and MIT alumnus. Hmmm...

And then there’s these:

• http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/vatican-convenes-major-climate-change-meeting/
  
• http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2015/05/pope_francis_ban_ki_moon_climate_change_talks_renewed_faith_from_vatican.html
  
• http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/04/29/vatican-summit-there-is-a-moral-imperative-to-act-on-climate-change/
  

Seems to me that the Pope has striven to be to be fairly well informed on the topic. And those are just his recent activities on the subject mateter.

So, even if he’s not a strong subject matter expert, is it wrong for him to simply serve as a megaphone for those who are?

On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Craig Good <clg...@gmail.com> wrote:

At this point I should just bow out of this conversation. I'll just point out that understanding basic principles doesn't convey any kind of authority, and scientists, like the rest of us, are on shaky ground when they opine outside their specialty.

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Brian Howell
www.linkedin.com/in/bdhowell

[Jack Saunders]

Not everybody needs to be a specialist to have a reasonably informed opinion

[Craig Good]

On Jun 8, 2015, at 14:59 PM, Jack Saunders <Jack...@pacbell.net> wrote:

> Not everybody needs to be a specialist to have a reasonably informed opinion

Of course not. And I’m not saying he doesn’t have the same right as anybody else to speak out. At the risk of getting myself in trouble, let’s just say that if I wanted to impeach the Pope’s opinion of anything it would be a pretty trivial task.

Brian, if he had studied and still practiced climatology I’d be inclined to consider him an authority (lower case) on the matter. As it stands, any working climatologist is a greater authority, and no chemical engineer’s opinion on climate should carry more weight than anybody else’s.

The bigger question is why anybody should care about his personal opinion on anything outside his area of expertise.

I like the way Steven Novella summed up the Dunning-Kruger Effect: We all suffer from it. Just imagine some field in which you have genuine expertise. Now think of how dumb people outside your field sound to you when they talk about that area.

That’s how dumb you are about everything else.

And by you, I mean we.




--
--Craig WWSJD?
clg...@me.com http://www.craig-good.com

When governments fear the people there is liberty. When people fear
the government there is tyranny. -- Thomas Jefferson

[Jack Saunders]

Are you saying the Pope is in the same league with sArah Palin? Or are you willing to credit a sober, jesuit approach to mulling imperfect and incomplete information?

[Craig Good]

On Jun 8, 2015, at 15:50 PM, Jack Saunders <Jack...@pacbell.net> wrote:

> Are you saying the Pope is in the same league with sArah Palin? Or are you willing to credit a sober, jesuit approach to mulling imperfect and incomplete information?

False dichotomy, and I should probably keep my opinion of the Pope to myself. I’m actually glad he’s speaking out about it. I’d rather people paid attention to science, though.

Best for me to back away at this point.

--
--Craig WWSJD?
clg...@me.com http://www.craig-good.com

"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting."
--Gen. Curtis LeMay

[Scott Hotes]

I'm glad the Pope is as progressive as he is, and I'm fairly certain he feels he is doing good by being open about

climate change and the threat it poses to our world.

That being said, to me it feels too much like some kind of a divine proclamation:  I am the Pope, I am infallible, I'm

telling you, my flock, that climate change is real, and we need to deal with it.

The great thing about science...  I don't really care what the Pope's opinion is on climate change, or any

other scientific matter.  I don't have have to.  He has no authority in this domain, divinely inspired, or maybe it

appeared to him in a dream, I could care less.  Science and the scientific method follow a path outside of dogmatic

religious forces of the Catholic Church and outside the politics in Washington D.C.

Will it effect the beliefs of millions of devout followers?  Yes, very likely.  And in this case, yes, that's probably a

good thing.  But it also reinforces a much sadder truth:  this flock is not in a position to think for itself.  In fact,

that's a concept deeply rooted in the Christian faith.  That is what will need to change for there to be real progress.

Scott

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[Brian Howell]

Actually, I think the Pope’s position comes from all of those experts, include Nobel laureates, with whom he has been conferring. See the articles I linked earlier, such as the one from Scientific American. 

In this regard, he is no different than Obama imposing regulatory limits on GHG emissions. Obama is not a scientist. But he is an educated man, like the Pope, who listens to other persons better educated in specific areas than he, like the Pope, and is intelligent enough to recognize their authority and understand the essential natures of their arguments. And while those experts don't have the standing, the authority to act by themselves, both Obama and the Pope do, hopefully to the betterment of all those in their charges.

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[jack saunders]

Scott's reservations RE divine inspiration are understandable but overblown.  I was formally indoctrinated in the Catholic faith for 12 years -- and even as a third grader was made absolutely clear on the technical details of papal infallibility.  It is a very rare proclamation that is covered by that, and it is made extremely clear exactly which words in any given papal writing are so selected.  They make a big deal out of it, and use it very sparingly.  It covers things like that taking of human life but never on political opinions.....certainly not in the last century.

 

---

From: Scott Hotes <sah...@gmail.com>
To: Craig Good <clg...@me.com>
Cc: Jack Saunders <Jack...@pacbell.net>; "Ipse-...@googlegroups.com" <Ipse-...@googlegroups.com>; Brian Howell <bdho...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 9:58 PM

Subject: Re: [Ipse Dixit] Rick Santorum, Chris Wallace, and Climate Change

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Ipse-dixit/CAC7%2BDAA%2Bkr9e_s7_4YjO7rtrbWMbsd_X3xghvnmtCTWXqgYT1A%40mail.gmail.com.

[David Fetter]

Jack,

As you know, Papal infallibility /ex cathedra/ speech, to be specific,
was invented in 1870, with the usual grafting-on of ancient precedent
that has long accompanied changes in the Roman Catholic Church. This
grafting is by no means restricted to that institution, and may well
be a necessary condition for changes to religious institutions.

I'm not saying you're doing this, but if propose to allege that the
invention of /ex cathedra/ wasn't political in nature from its
inception, the burden of proof is on you, and it's heavy.

Cheers,
David.

On Tue, Jun 09, 2015 at 08:49:33PM +0000, jack saunders wrote:
> Scott's reservations RE divine inspiration are understandable but overblown.  I was formally indoctrinated in the Catholic faith for 12 years -- and even as a third grader was made absolutely clear on the technical details of papal infallibility.  It is a very rare proclamation that is covered by that, and it is made extremely clear exactly which words in any given papal writing are so selected.  They make a big deal out of it, and use it very sparingly.  It covers things like that taking of human life but never on political opinions.....certainly not in the last century. 
>

> From: Scott Hotes <sah...@gmail.com>
> To: Craig Good <clg...@me.com>
> Cc: Jack Saunders <Jack...@pacbell.net>; "Ipse-...@googlegroups.com" <Ipse-...@googlegroups.com>; Brian Howell <bdho...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, June 8, 2015 9:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ipse Dixit] Rick Santorum, Chris Wallace, and Climate Change
>

> I'm glad the Pope is as progressive as he is, and I'm fairly certain he feels he is doing good by being open aboutclimate change and the threat it poses to our world.
> That being said, to me it feels too much like some kind of a divine proclamation:  I am the Pope, I am infallible, I'mtelling you, my flock, that climate change is real, and we need to deal with it.
> The great thing about science...  I don't really care what the Pope's opinion is on climate change, or anyother scientific matter.  I don't have have to.  He has no authority in this domain, divinely inspired, or maybe itappeared to him in a dream, I could care less.  Science and the scientific method follow a path outside of dogmaticreligious forces of the Catholic Church and outside the politics in Washington D.C.
> Will it effect the beliefs of millions of devout followers?  Yes, very likely.  And in this case, yes, that's probably agood thing.  But it also reinforces a much sadder truth:  this flock is not in a position to think for itself.  In fact,that's a concept deeply rooted in the Christian faith.  That is what will need to change for there to be real progress.

> Scott
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 3:57 PM, Craig Good <clg...@me.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Jun 8, 2015, at 15:50 PM, Jack Saunders <Jack...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > Are you saying the Pope is in the same league with sArah Palin?  Or are you willing to credit a sober, jesuit approach to mulling imperfect and incomplete information?
>
> False dichotomy, and I should probably keep my opinion of the Pope to myself. I’m actually glad he’s speaking out about it. I’d rather people paid attention to science, though.
>
>
>
> Best for me to back away at this point.
>
>
>
> --
>     --Craig                                                       WWSJD?
>     clg...@me.com        http://www.craig-good.com
>
>     "If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting."
>             --Gen. Curtis LeMay
>
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[jack saunders]

Yes, it was  political....to cut the institution loose from a history of overly political misuse in the period when Rome was on par with modern Washington DC in all sorts of geopolitical shenanigans.  A conscientious modernization, as I interpret it.

 

---

From: David Fetter <da...@fetter.org>
To: jack saunders <jack...@pacbell.net>
Cc: Scott Hotes <sah...@gmail.com>; Craig Good <clg...@me.com>; "Ipse-...@googlegroups.com" <Ipse-...@googlegroups.com>; Brian Howell <bdho...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2015 2:03 PM

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[Brian Howell]

It’s got everything but the Voice of God:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2015/06/12/pope_francis_climate_encyclical_now_with_it_s_own_hollywood_trailer.html