What Is A Proper Vessel Survey Include

[Randy W Horton, vankedisi 26C, San Diego CA]

Just had a pre-purchase survey completed on a nonsuch 26' I am buying, (attached) and was a bit un-happy that he didn't even bother to raise the sail. Is this normal or was I short changed? 

[Dorothy Salusbury]

Hi Randy,

We’ve had three surveys done on our Nonsuch 30 since we bought it in 2005 ( insurance now requires survey every 5 years for this age of vessel) and the sail was never raised, sounds normal to me.

Dorothy  Salusbury 

Cathartic Nonsuch 30

ABYC

Toronto 

On Jan 9, 2022, at 02:24, Randy W Horton, vankedisi 26C, San Diego CA <randyw...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just had a pre-purchase survey completed on a nonsuch 26' I am buying, (attached) and was a bit un-happy that he didn't even bother to raise the sail. Is this normal or was I short changed? 

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[Randy W Horton, vankedisi 26C, San Diego CA]

Thanks for that information, I don't feel as troubled. 

[Joe Valinoti]

I believe the sail should definitely have been raised.  I’ve been the driver on several sail trials including more then one Nonsuch and can’t imagine the surveyor never raising the sail.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[Joe Valinoti]

I suspect that a survey for a renewal of insurance, is different in that they don’t care if the sail is good or bad.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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From: Randy W Horton, vankedisi 26C, San Diego CA

Sent: Sunday, January 9, 2022 6:47 AM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

Subject: Re: What Is A Proper Vessel Survey Include

 

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[Steve O'Malley]

Good morning Randy,

After we purchased our 1985 Nonsuch 26 we opted  to have the mast pulled and properly inspected. I decided on this after hearing that it is advisable   to inspect the mast  horizontally on  sawhorses as the weight of the mast when vertical will prevent detection of any wobble or wear. Turns out the stainless bolt that joins the two mast sections had elongated the hole allowing for wobble. This was easy to fix and we also got to inspect  and replace all the sheaves, hangers and attachments for wishbone replace running lights etc. it cost some $$$$ but it was worth the peace of mind that the mast was sound.  Good luck with your purchase.

Steve O’Malley

N26C  # 172 ANU 

Marblehead MA

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Hi Randy -

I agree with Joe. and, yup, if it's an insurance survey like what Dorothy is mentioning (quicker, cheaper and not as detailed as a pre-purchase one), I doubt if the sail would be raised. But, if it's to decide on a purchase, like any other common-sense bit of procedure, IF something is easy to do and it will result in a more thorough job, well ....  jeez ....  

I would imagine that he shoved his hand into the folded up/flaked sail and pronounced it "okay, nice and crinkly, etc." Better than nothing but, if you raise it afterward and discover a huge area of a mildew or definite damage, you are in trouble. Kinda like, if the boat is in the water and it is claimed that the engine runs, it would take 15 seconds to start it and you'd learn a LOT about the boat.

So, I think that he should have raised it. In fact, now that I have actually re-read your posting and taken the trouble to read the survey, I note that the surveyor checked the boat on the hard, in the slings and did a sea trial, of sorts. The engine was run and, I guess the boat was motored around. Hmmmm ..... it's a SAILBOAT. Wouldn't a "sea trial" include a sail ?? 

Well, maybe not. Just maybe it was a hybrid COVID sea trial. He "virtually" raised the sail. Please do not think that I am suggesting that you have a lousy survey or anything like that. I am no expert in these matters (but Joe and others sure are). I do not know if the fact that your surveyor is not a member of SAMS or NAMS means anything. Many good Canadian surveyors belong to SAMS. The other noteworthy thing is the fact that your surveyor lists quite a personal history in the survey in order to attest to his credibility, experience, etc. In 1996, I bought my wonderful old Carter 30 sloop and with it came a survey from a "highly experienced boatbuilder blah blah blah" who felt thoroughly qualified to be a surveyor and perform this function and charge for it, etc. All of that bumph took almost the whole first page of the survey (somewhat similar to yours). Fortunately, the boat only had many, many minor problems and nothing really major. Prior to that, I had my first boat (a Tanzer 22) surveyed by a very highly-regarded Canadian surveyor who has since passed away. There was never any PR blat or personal "bio" on any of his material - just his professional credentials.  All other surveys that I have seen (or have commissioned) have been done by surveyors who strictly list their credentials and that's all. So, I question the need for the "life story" or the "self-promotion" and, once again, the lack of SAMS or NAMS membership.

I'd love to know what others think about all of this. It should be mentioned that Joe Valinoti (as much as we all love to yank his galvanized chain) is a master diesel mechanic, veteran sailor and ex-Navy guy and experienced delivery skipper. He wasn't born yesterday (a nod to his years, BTW) and knows a lot. 

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Ward Woodruff]

The surveyor indicated the hull is solid fiberglass.  I'm guessing the hull is balsa cored as is a 33.  He also did not indicate that he checked for moisture in the balsa core of the deck or hull.  The boat has a self supported aluminum mast.  You may have wanted to unstep that mast to check it's overall condition as a replacement of the mast is a high percentage of the value of the boat.

Ward Woodruff
N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

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[Mike Massagli]

Hi Randy - 

A brief read of your survey.  You've at least received a partial inventory.

As someone else suggested, you may want to take the additional trouble to have the mast pulled and inspected for cracks, for the integrity of the joint and associated fasteners, the condition of the sail track, the condition of the halyard, sheaves and anything else at the masthead, as well as anything attached to the mast.  That will also give you a good clear look at the partners and the condition of the step.

Furthermore, raising the sail would also have tested the operation of the halyard winch under load.

I would be disappointed.

Mike Massagli

s/v Tenacious

1982 Nonsuch 26C #61

lying Nantasket, MA

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Hi Randy - me again.

What I do know for sure is that NS 22s and NS 26s do have solid fibreglass hulls. Anything larger, I believe, has a balsa cored hull. 

And, for what it's worth, I don't think that it's "lousy" boat. Not judging by the photos. It looks like it's had good care (and Nonsuches were superbly built). Don't overstress.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Paul Miller]

Just my opinion here but having dealt with a lot of surveys and surveyors I would (charitably) say that there are “better” ones and “not so better” ones. Many are stuck in insurance survey mode and do little more than an inventory. Others are less than thorough. Credentials may or may not mean anything. 

I once had a boat (Stevens 42 as I remember) come into my shipyard for some minor repairs noted in a purchase survey. We ended up replacing all the keel and stem bolts which were rusted away to “carrots” and 52 ribs that were all broken under a stringer that ran along the inside opposite the chine. I was amazed that the boat had made the trip around Cape Scott in one piece.

This is not the only such story. Suffice to say, I think of them as a resource for the layman but not a guarantee in any way. Unfortunately the purchaser will always have to be the one who takes the responsibility for his purchase. The surveyor will have a disclaimer on his form that removes such responsibility from him.

Sorry for the rant….

Paul M 

NS30U #211, Sandpiper 

Cowichan Bay, B.C.

[Joe Valinoti]

I’ve always been amazed at what professional surveyors see and don’t see.  Particularly the one that I looked at this year where the mast track was loose, and the mast itself just sitting in the shoe and not attached.  But there was a good description of the cabinetry!! 

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[Joe Valinoti]

Just wanted to mention to Ernie that when I was in the navy,  a long time ago and faraway, we had steel ships and not a one that I sailed on had sails.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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From: Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto

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[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Randy,

Sorry to hear you're concerned about the survey.    Having seen this example of his work, I wouldn't hire him to help me buy a boat.  He seems like the kind of surveyor someone would use to game an insurance company about a boat they already had, rather than one who's good for helping buy one.   I don't know what you paid for for the survey, which'll determine how upset to be at him. 

He does seem to have taken a good look at the engine, which is important.  And his comment about the drain hoses implies some attention to detail.  The problem is you don't know whether what's not mentioned was skipped because he didn't see a problem, vs. because he didn't look.  A better surveyor would enumerate the inspection process.

I've attached the table of contents from Don Casey's very useful little book titled, "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat".  I regard it as a good checklist of issues that should be covered.  A better surveyor would use some checklist like it, and tell you what passed and failed.  That's what gives you reassurance that a good survey was done.  You might want to look at that (and the book), and based on that make a list of questions to contact your surveyor about to see what he says.

More important is how you feel about the boat.  Fundamentally, there are three questions you want a surveyor's help in answering:

1. Is the boat safe to operate?
2. Are there significant hidden maintenance issues the time and/or cost of which would make you regret the purchase had they not been disclosed?
3. Based on #1 and #2, what's a fair price for the boat?

Based on what's covered in the survey and the pictures, my guess is that your survey's good enough on #1.  It's probably but not as definitely ok on #2 (see next paragraph).  He wasn't much help on #3, since he seemed to have only looked at asking prices rather than showing knowledge of actual sales prices.

 

Mast problems with Nonsuch sailboats are rare.  And I looked at a Nonsuch 30 a while ago that had not addressed any of the post-manufacture directives on problem avoidance, but yet had been sailed in San Francisco Bay's challenging conditions for 30 years without problems.  However, should they arise and not be remedied before the mast fails, that''d probably be the most expensive item to deal with on the boats.  This is why several posters have recommended a mast inspection. 

I happen know someone who looked at Vandekisi.   I'll contact you off-line to offer introductions and further assistance, in case of interest.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch 26U #233

   Marina del Rey, California

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Joe -

I thought that you'd sailed on this.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Randy W Horton, vankedisi 26C, San Diego CA]

That was my thinking also....

[Randy W Horton, vankedisi 26C, San Diego CA]

Great advice thank you.

[Randy W Horton, vankedisi 26C, San Diego CA]

I was a bit surprised and still have concerns of the quality of the inspection as it was a purchase inspection....

[Randy W Horton, vankedisi 26C, San Diego CA]

Thanks for the comment.

[Randy W Horton, vankedisi 26C, San Diego CA]

Good points , Thanks

[Randy W Horton, vankedisi 26C, San Diego CA]

Welcome to contact me anytime.

[Randy W Horton, 30C (unnamed)]

Rather late update: I did not take delivery of the 26C as the hull was not acceptable and required extensive work.

 I am currently in the middle of a 1981 30C, (hoping for a clean boat at survey). 

The boat is in Kemah, Texas if all goes well I shall sail her to Florida for her home.