Simplified logo concept

[James Beck]

Hi all,

I've been playing with this logo for a long time, and I figured it was
better shared than not. Every time I see the logo, I get an itch to tweak
it.

So here it is: an idea for a simplified identity (logo and icon).

What are your thoughts?

James

(see attached)

[Tony Mechelynck]

According to http://www.vim.org/trivia.php "there is just one official
Vim logo", but it has a number of variations found at
http://www.vim.org/logos.php

What's wrong with it?


Best regards,
Tony.
--
Paranoia is simply an optimistic outlook on life.

[Edward L. Fox]

On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Tony Mechelynck
<antoine.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 09/07/13 23:17, James Beck wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've been playing with this logo for a long time, and I figured it was
>> better shared than not. Every time I see the logo, I get an itch to
>> tweak it.
>>
>> So here it is: an idea for a simplified identity (logo and icon).
>>
>> What are your thoughts?
>>
>> James
>>
>> (see attached)
>>
> According to http://www.vim.org/trivia.php "there is just one official Vim
> logo", but it has a number of variations found at
> http://www.vim.org/logos.php
>
> What's wrong with it?

I think he's just trying to follow the latest fashion style: flat design.

> Best regards,
> Tony.
> --
> Paranoia is simply an optimistic outlook on life.
>
>

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[Tim Chase]

On 2013-07-09 16:04, Edward L. Fox wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Tony Mechelynck wrote:
> > What's wrong with it?
>
> I think he's just trying to follow the latest fashion style: flat
> design.

The icons can't help but make me think of

http://jonyiveredesignsthings.tumblr.com/

in the wake of the new iOS release. :-)

-tim
...for whom icons are somewhat moot since I run fluxbox with no
desktop manager, so it's just black/blank, and I launch everything
from the console (where I'm vimming 99.99% of the time anyways), via
key-chords, or the pop-up menu.

[Boyko Bantchev]

> According to http://www.vim.org/trivia.php "there is just one official Vim
> logo", but it has a number of variations found at
> http://www.vim.org/logos.php
>
> What's wrong with it?

As James said, his version is simplified. I do like it.
I also think that at least some of those previous variations that
you refer to are kitschy (e.g. stars, flames, ...), and perhaps this
is what motivates James's cleaner design.

[Marcin Szamotulski]

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I do like it too :) it is simple and fresh :)

Cheers,
Marcin

[Ben Klein]

Icons are *very* important. They can be used on t-shirts.

--
b

Sent from my iPhone

[Tim Chase]

On 2013-07-09 18:00, Ben Klein wrote:
>> On Jul 9, 2013, at 4:34 PM, Tim Chase wrote

>>>> What's wrong with it?
>>>
>>> I think he's just trying to follow the latest fashion style: flat
>>> design.
>>
>> The icons can't help but make me think of
>>
>> http://jonyiveredesignsthings.tumblr.com/
>>
>> in the wake of the new iOS release. :-)
>

> Icons are *very* important. They can be used on t-shirts.

Reminds me of this thread:

http://www.mail-archive.com/vim...@googlegroups.com/msg10408.html

in which my preferred tshirt design mostly just has ":wq!" on the
back in a monospaced green terminal font. :-D

-tim

[Tony Mechelynck]

I mentioned what I saw as "official". The one *I* like best (as a logo,
not an icon) is the one on the "monobook" version of Vim wikia pages,
viz. http://images.wikia.com/vim/images/b/bc/Wiki.png : No stars, no
flames, just the well-known "Vim" and diamond logo.


Best regards,
Tony.
--
The lion and the calf shall lie down together but the calf won't get
much sleep.
-- Woody Allen

[Benjamin Klein]

On Jul 9, 2013, at 8:06 PM, Tim Chase<v...@tim.thechases.com> wrote:

Reminds me of this thread:

http://www.mail-archive.com/vim...@googlegroups.com/msg10408.html

in which my preferred tshirt design mostly just has ":wq!" on the
back in a monospaced green terminal font. :-D

I think I have that very shirt (or at least something similar). :) http://www.freewear.org/?page=show_item&id=FW0041

Also: I even remembered to reply correctly this time. Sorry for re-sending the entire conversation (backwards) last time, everybody.

--

b

[James Beck]

> What's wrong with it?
>
>
> Best regards,
> Tony.

I have a few complaints about the original logo.

1. It's very busy (seven colors?!)
2. It doesn't print well (seven colors, hairline borders, gradients)
3. It's inconsistent (some parts are embossed, others not. Shading is done
in both blue and black.)
4. The font styles ("V" and "im") are different (this makes my eyes twitch)
5. The "m" looks like someone melted it with fire. Inelegant and weird.
6. As a general rule, when loud background texture (green diamond) cuts
through text, it makes me twitch (see the treatment of "im")

A shocking number of my colleagues have no idea how great Vim is. Some of
them were surprised to learn Vim has "syntax highlighting, just like
Eclipse!" I think this ignorance comes from two places: first, they've
only used vim to modify .bashrc on a server somewhere through Putty, and
second, the visual identity looks like the program was abandoned 10 years
ago. One reason I finally decided to post this, was because git recently
redid their logo (and it looked a lot like some of the designs I was
playing with), and I think the result reminds people that git is a
powerful, modern tool. I wanted the same for Vim.

James

[Erik Falor]

On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 06:22:08AM +0200, James Beck wrote:
> I have a few complaints about the original logo.

[snipped]

> the visual identity looks like the program was abandoned 10 years
> ago.

I couldn't agree more.

I understand that most of us hackers very conscientiously try not to
judge books by their covers, and this tendency leads to very
outdated-looking websites, etc. While *we* may not be turned-off by a
'90s-style website, we must confront the reality that this is a
stumbling-block to many potential Vimmers.

If we as a community give a care about evangelizing Vim to the rest of
the world (and I really think that all of the T-shirt talk elsewhere
in the thread proves that we do care), it only makes sense to present
Vim in the most attractive way possible. Even if the "marketing-ness"
of it makes some of us cringe inside.

[snipped]

> One reason I finally decided to post this, was because git recently
> redid their logo (and it looked a lot like some of the designs I was
> playing with), and I think the result reminds people that git is a
> powerful, modern tool. I wanted the same for Vim.

Vim is one of the most actively worked-on open source projects that I
follow. That fact alone should be a huge selling-point for a potential
user who is thinking about trying a better editor. Nothing is worse
than falling in love with a decaying, unmaintained program. A casual
user will not get the impression of Vim's vitality from looking at Vim
itself, nor from www.vim.org. An updated logo would be a really easy
way to make this point, especially since James has already done all of
the work.

The way I see it, there are really only three alternatives:

1) you're a WM minimalist who exclusively uses console Vim and
won't notice the new logo.
2) you just really, really like the existing icon.
3) you use gVim, and will appreciate the update.

If you identify with #1, why bother arguing about this? By definition
you don't care.

If you are in line with #2, well, I just don't get you.

As for #3, aren't many Linux distros already use a non-standard icon
for Vim nowadays? I have seen images of a Tango-based Vim icon out on
the webs (I genuinely don't know what the other distros are up to; I
build Vim from source on my Gentoo box and use minimalistic WMs with
the console all of the time), and I think MacVim uses a custom glassy
icon (can't afford a Mac, so again, I must plead ignorance). If this
is the case, I must ask why we wouldn't just modernize the icon at the
top of the project?

tl;dr I like James' proposal.

Cheers,

--
Erik Falor http://unnovative.net
Registered Linux User #445632 http://linuxcounter.net

[Christian Brabandt]

On Wed, July 10, 2013 01:34, Tim Chase wrote:
> ...for whom icons are somewhat moot since I run fluxbox with no
> desktop manager, so it's just black/blank, and I launch everything
> from the console (where I'm vimming 99.99% of the time anyways), via
> key-chords, or the pop-up menu.

Icons, aren't that those small little thingys, that you are supposed
to click on, but that are always hidden by some application window?

regards,
Christian

[Christian Brabandt]

On Wed, July 10, 2013 06:22, James Beck wrote:
>> What's wrong with it?
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Tony.
>
> I have a few complaints about the original logo.
>
> 1. It's very busy (seven colors?!)
> 2. It doesn't print well (seven colors, hairline borders, gradients)
> 3. It's inconsistent (some parts are embossed, others not. Shading is done
> in both blue and black.)
> 4. The font styles ("V" and "im") are different (this makes my eyes
> twitch)
> 5. The "m" looks like someone melted it with fire. Inelegant and weird.
> 6. As a general rule, when loud background texture (green diamond) cuts
> through text, it makes me twitch (see the treatment of "im")

Good points. I don't really like the modern flat style of icons nowadays
(perhaps I am just not used to it yet), but I would appreciate a new
fresh look of the old logo.

This reminds me, that someone posted about a new macvim logo at the
vim mac list some time ago (I don't read that list, just happened to
stumble over it just recently):
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/vim_mac/mR1ZbLfGw9k/UGwkCvt22nIJ

> A shocking number of my colleagues have no idea how great Vim is. Some of
> them were surprised to learn Vim has "syntax highlighting, just like
> Eclipse!" I think this ignorance comes from two places: first, they've
> only used vim to modify .bashrc on a server somewhere through Putty, and
> second, the visual identity looks like the program was abandoned 10 years
> ago. One reason I finally decided to post this, was because git recently
> redid their logo (and it looked a lot like some of the designs I was
> playing with), and I think the result reminds people that git is a
> powerful, modern tool. I wanted the same for Vim.

Yes, renewing the logo sounds like a good idea.

regards,
Christian

[Gautier DI FOLCO]

2013/7/10 Christian Brabandt <cbl...@256bit.org>

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Hello all,

I'm not a contributor of ViM, but I use ViM from a long time (and of course I like it), I think the logo propose by James Beck (nice job) is more beautifull than the old logo, and it would be a good idea to refresh vim.org too.

I'm a web developer so it's easy for me to tell that but, maybe making a public repository in which people could improve vim.org could be a good idea.

[Yukihiro Nakadaira]

By the way, this vim girl illustration could be nice to print t-shirt.  v(・ω・)m
http://blog.imagedrive.jp/diary/2013-03-10/vim-advent-calendar-2012-100th-2
http://blog.imagedrive.jp/diary/2013-06-18/vim-advent-calendar-2012-200th

--
Yukihiro Nakadaira - yukihiro....@gmail.com

[Tony Mechelynck]

"Very busy, seven colors". So what? How many colours are there in the
Firefox logo? How many shades of blue in SeaMonkey's? Personally I don't
prefer drab icons over colourful ones. But of course, /de gustibus et
coloribus non disputandum est/ (Latin: "one mustn't quarrel over tastes
and colours" [i.e. over taste and colour preferences]).

"Some parts are embossed, others not". Right. I'd like it even better
with drop-down shadows around not only V but also im. Also if it were
all in a single nice-looking font: that "im" part of the big logo looks
amateurish to me.

I don't have colleagues anymore so I can't value that "A shocking number
of my colleagues" argument. Maybe I'm too much of a geek to accept or
reject a program by the mere look of its icon. First see what it does
and how I can use it. <span class="offtopic">When I started on
mainframes in the 70s, and even as late as my first PCs (640K, IBM
PC-DOS, no hard disk at first) there were no icons at all, no mouse,
just a command-line, keyboard, and teletype (or teletype-like shell)
display. Doesn't mean that I don't like today's GUIs, I do. But I still
use the shell command-line quite a lot (which nowadays means bash for
me).</span>

<p class="offtopic">
git, a powerful modern tool? Maybe, and so is Emacs. Personally I've
never been able to feel at ease with either of them: give me Mercurial
and Vim any time. Which of course doesn't remove any bit of git and
Emacs's power and usefulness — to other people.
</p>


Best regards,
Tony.
--
ARTHUR: Now stand aside worthy adversary.
BLACK KNIGHT: (Glancing at his shoulder) 'Tis but a scratch.
ARTHUR: A scratch? Your arm's off.
"Monty Python and the Holy Grail" PYTHON (MONTY)
PICTURES LTD

[Paul Isambert]

"Christian Brabandt" <cbl...@256bit.org> a écrit:

> On Wed, July 10, 2013 06:22, James Beck wrote:
> >> What's wrong with it?
> >>
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >> Tony.
> >
> > I have a few complaints about the original logo.
> >
> > 1. It's very busy (seven colors?!)
> > 2. It doesn't print well (seven colors, hairline borders, gradients)
> > 3. It's inconsistent (some parts are embossed, others not. Shading is done
> > in both blue and black.)
> > 4. The font styles ("V" and "im") are different (this makes my eyes
> > twitch)
> > 5. The "m" looks like someone melted it with fire. Inelegant and weird.
> > 6. As a general rule, when loud background texture (green diamond) cuts
> > through text, it makes me twitch (see the treatment of "im")
>
> Good points. I don't really like the modern flat style of icons nowadays
> (perhaps I am just not used to it yet), but I would appreciate a new
> fresh look of the old logo.

I think the complaints are quite valid too, but I don’t really like
James’s proposal either:

- I think the logos would really fit a detergent. (I do appreciate the
simplicity, though.)
- Why a slab serif, and why a *slanted* slab serif? For me, that
contradicts the simplicity of the design; you’re whispering with
colors and screaming with the font.
- Lowercase initial is trendy; but is that really Vim? I wonder
whether all-uppercase wouldn’t be better.

As far as I’m concerned, I’d like a simple logo in a simple
yet stately font: a humanist serif or even Roman capitals like Trajan.
After all “Vim” is the accusative of “vis”, meaning “strength, power”,
and all those kinds of properties you associate with our favorite text
editors (and tyrants, too). If the green diamond must be kept in the
background, though, that really makes things hard.

Thank you James for launching the idea and submitting proposals (I
hope my criticism wasn’t too unpleasant).

Best,
Paul

[shawn wilson]

I agree with the need to update the logo (and the complaints about the old one).

I would also like to see the web site maintained as a public repo. However, to that end - the one thing I like about old looking web sites is that when I open them up in lynx/links (rare, but when I do this I really need it to work) nothing is lost and I can find what I'm looking for. If anything breaks this, I'm absolutely opposed.

[Gautier DI FOLCO]

2013/7/10 shawn wilson <ag4v...@gmail.com>

I agree with the need to update the logo (and the complaints about the old one).

I would also like to see the web site maintained as a public repo. However, to that end - the one thing I like about old looking web sites is that when I open them up in lynx/links (rare, but when I do this I really need it to work) nothing is lost and I can find what I'm looking for. If anything breaks this, I'm absolutely opposed.

It is not a problem, we just have to avoid full-js website.

[James Beck]

> "Very busy, seven colors". So what? How many colours are there in the

> Firefox logo? [...] But of course, /de

> gustibus et coloribus non disputandum est/

The points I raised were my own problems with the current vim logo, not
a rule for everybody. The reason for my "minimal colors" requirement is
as follows:

1. Vim runs on very basic hardware with minimum color capabilities.
It's hard to make a good-looking logo with only 16 colors.
2. In my opinion, the icon can be splashy and impressive, but the logo
needs to "work". It has to print nicely on t-shirts, mugs, and crappy
black and white printers. It has to work even if you change the colors
entirely. It has to stand on its own.
3. Ideally, the logo has to stand up to time (this is difficult).
Changes in hardware (high resolution displays, better print technology,
faster processing for vector graphics, etc) encourage logo redesigns if
a logo looks awful in the new tech. Changes in marketing should not
require the logo be changed. The more simple the core identity, the
easier it is to use it. Consider what it costs to make a Firefox
t-shirt; they MUST use full color. Our t-shirts could be done cheaply
with a single-color process, and it'd look just as crisp and
professional.

It's worth pointing out that despite the above three points, a good vim
logo could STILL be created in a style similar to the Firefox logo. It's
just not how I would do it. I say let people go crazy with awesome
Firefox-esq icons if they want, but the core, official logo has to
"work".

James

[James Beck]

> - Why a slab serif, and why a *slanted* slab serif? For me, that
> contradicts the simplicity of the design; you’re whispering with
> colors and screaming with the font.

I used a slab serif to acknowledge the history of Vim running in a
terminal. The reason I used italics is precisely to "scream". I wanted
the logo to be punchy and sharp. In fact, I quite like the "whisper with
color, scream with the font" description. :) If I had a concern, it was
about not being punchy enough with the type logo.

I initially started with other fonts, but nothing felt "vim" about it
to me. The old logo is also serifed, so I think some continuity helps.

> - Lowercase initial is trendy; but is that really Vim? I wonder
> whether all-uppercase wouldn’t be better.

I tried that too. This font seemed to be designed around the
interaction of lower-case letters. It looked too blocky and strained in
all-caps. Mixed-case was an option, but it created awkward interactions
with other design elements (the diamond, in this case).

> As far as I’m concerned, I’d like a simple logo in a simple
> yet stately font: a humanist serif or even Roman capitals like
> Trajan.
> After all “Vim” is the accusative of “vis”, meaning “strength,
> power”,
> and all those kinds of properties you associate with our favorite
> text
> editors (and tyrants, too). If the green diamond must be kept in the
> background, though, that really makes things hard.

For me, the green diamond is one of the more important parts of the
identity. The slab serif is almost secondary to the green diamond.

> Thank you James for launching the idea and submitting proposals (I
> hope my criticism wasn’t too unpleasant).

Not at all; I appreciate your feedback. I think the design I submitted
works really well, but that doesn't mean we can't improve it.

James

[Ike Devolder]

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>

In general i don't care about the icon, but:

- these day 'geeks' are not the geeks from the past
- geeks can like nice and simple logos
- a simple sleek logo could attract younger people

--
Ike

[Tim Chase]

On 2013-07-10 06:22, James Beck wrote:
> > What's wrong with it?
>

> I have a few complaints about the original logo.
>
> 1. It's very busy (seven colors?!)
> 2. It doesn't print well (seven colors, hairline borders, gradients)
> 3. It's inconsistent (some parts are embossed, others not. Shading
> is done in both blue and black.)
> 4. The font styles ("V" and "im") are different (this makes my eyes
> twitch)
> 5. The "m" looks like someone melted it with fire. Inelegant and weird.
> 6. As a general rule, when loud background texture (green diamond)
> cuts through text, it makes me twitch (see the treatment of "im")

For all my Jony Ives teasing, (1) it was mostly a gut reaction to the
flat magenta one, and (2) I *do* see room for improvement in the
existing logo, especially in some of the areas you note.

Regarding colors & gradients, it's nice to have a full-color
monitor-display version for which the primary goal should be to look
good and convey "vim'ness" regardless of color-depth. However it
would also be good to have a 2-color (B&W, green&white,
whatever&other) which makes printing cheaper :-) As I type this, I
see you mentioning single-color tshirt printing elsewhere in the
thread, so you've clearly thought about this already too. So I don't
see these as mutually exclusive, but complementary for differing uses.
Though the contemporary fad of flat design seems to me just that:
fad-ish.

Re. lower-vs-upper-vs-mixed-case, I come down on the lowercase side,
as that's what I type at the prompt: "vim", not "VIM".

Re. fonts, I prefer monospaced unadorned (no italics, smallcaps,
underline, etc). Your comment on "scream" just felt counter to the
pragmatic nature of vim. If you want emphasis, I'd do it via weight
rather than using italic/oblique. Also, I can't tell because the
italics may be messing with me, but in the font you use for the "vim"
logo one, the junctions of the curves on the "m" with their parts
look abnormally thin. What font is that?

I don't feel particularly attached to the green diamond aspect of the
logo, old or new.

Just my gut reactions in a more serious response to the initial
post. :-)

-tim

[James Beck]

> Though the contemporary fad of flat design seems to me just that:
> fad-ish.

It IS a little fad-ish, but "flat" design isn't really my goal here. My
goal is only to make the logo work. As I said (and as you pointed out
again), having a flat logo for printing, and a flashy shiny icon for the
monitor, is totally reasonable and desirable. I made the icon flat
(well, slightly rounded) because that's just my style.

> Re. lower-vs-upper-vs-mixed-case, I come down on the lowercase side,
> as that's what I type at the prompt: "vim", not "VIM".

That is an interesting point. I think that may be why it feels better
for me, too.

> What font is that?

I wrote the font details at the bottom of the image. Monotype Egyptian
Slate Medium (Italic)

James

> --

[Boyko Bantchev]

If we are considering new vim icons, is it really important to keep
the diamond? Fitting a text within a diamond implies that either the
letters are too small and too close or the diamond is too large: in
any case the text is too small as compared with the diamond. Having
to fit the diamond itself within a particularly small space (think
of a favicon) almost surely blurs the text in it completely.

[Gary Johnson]

I have two different Vim icons visible on my desktop at the moment:
one for Windows and one for KDE on Fedora 11. In both cases, the
word Vim is laid over the diamond and the letters are quite clear.
The diamond appears as a background rather than a container.

Regards,
Gary

[Boyko Bantchev]

> I have two different Vim icons visible on my desktop at the moment:
> one for Windows and one for KDE on Fedora 11. In both cases, the
> word Vim is laid over the diamond and the letters are quite clear.
> The diamond appears as a background rather than a container.

Even when the word Vim is laid over the diamond and not contained in
it, whether the letters are legible depends on the size of the icon.
Besides, the diamond itself tends to be much less discernible when
overlaid by the word.

I am now looking at the Vim icon on my task panel (Linux Mint). The
'im' of 'Vim' is completely illegible. Even the diamond is hardly
recognizable, as the 'V' is the same size and laid over it. (The
more so as the background is a square containing the diamond which
is almost the same green colour as the diamond.)

Even for larger icons, there is not much left of the diamond to be
seen behind the 'V'.

[Mike Hume]

Guyz... don't change a thing. I don't wanna have to update my tattoo :P

[James Beck]

That's why I have two different sized icons there; a large one with the
"vim" text, and a favicon-sized version with only a "v". In both cases,
I think the green diamond is iconic (ha ha! pun not intended), and the
words/letters are secondary.

Mike Hume wrote:
> Guyz... don't change a thing. I don't wanna have to update my tattoo
> :P

Ha ha! Man. I'm so inconsiderate.

James

[Charles Campbell]

James Beck wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've been playing with this logo for a long time, and I figured it was
> better shared than not. Every time I see the logo, I get an itch to
> tweak it.
>
> So here it is: an idea for a simplified identity (logo and icon).
>
> What are your thoughts?
Personally, I'm fine with the current logo. No tattoos, though.

Regards,
Chip Campbell

[Tony Mechelynck]

With the standard Vim icon (16px square, I think, on my Gnome taskbar on
openSUSE 12.1) everything (V, i, m, and the green diamond behind them)
is perfectly recognizable… when I wear the proper eyeglasses for the
distance to my screen. Yes, the V is almost the same size as the diamond
(1px smaller maybe) but the angles of the diamond are definitely there.
The background of my taskbar is black, BTW, and "the square containing
the diamond" has transparent background, so no loss of contrast.

>
> Even for larger icons, there is not much left of the diamond to be
> seen behind the 'V'.
>

My desktop icon is bigger (48px, I think), and there there's quite a lot
left of the diamond. And BTW the "im" looks less amateurish there than
on the large wiki (Monobook skin) logo.


Best regards,
Tony.
--
ARTHUR: You are indeed brave Sir knight, but the fight is mine.
BLACK KNIGHT: Had enough?
ARTHUR: You stupid bastard. You havn't got any arms left.

[Tony Mechelynck]

No tattoos for me either. But if I could lay hands on a T-shirt or
sweatshirt (and not need a credit card or a paypal account to pay for
it), that would be something. I'll see if there is a Vim stand at the
next FOSDEM on 1-2 February.

Best regards,
Tony.
--
It is impossible to experience one's death objectively and still carry
a tune.
-- Woody Allen

[Chris Simon]

Just a comment on the proposed logotype... The slab serifs are too busy, especially between the i and m. My2c

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[AnilG]

I love the simplified logo concept (and the thread is instructive) https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/vim_use/61DSyLWFeak/SrQnujUbdGkJ

Especially the little one with the v in the middle - it really captures the essence of the vim logo in an iconic little icon, if you know what I mean.

You don't get more iconic than vim. It's pedigree and value is legendary, yet I feel like vimers are a dying breed. I feel the essence of vim *in function*, in terms of it's design, is something that practically defines *good programmers*. The vim way takes more effort up front but once you've got it your efficiency and power is multiplied.

I don't want to say that is not communicated by the old icon, but I think because time has passed it's useful and probably needed to communicate that Vim is *still* just as relevant, or *more relevant* today, *because* Vim is not just an ordinary product, it's a timeless product that has never been bettered and implements a method that will always be succesful.

These icons capture the Vim logo so that the appearance is anchored in the original but communicates contemporary relevance and seems to bring out the excellence of the marque. Target, AT&T, Intel, Microsoft, Google, Apple, many brands have previously done it with success.

I'd love to get high res copies of those icons. I'm going to use these regardless. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vimlogo.svg will always be a giant but I want to see http://article.gmane.org/gmane.editors.vim/112613 all over the place.

[Erik Christiansen]

On 10.07.13 16:42, Mike Hume wrote:
> Guyz... don't change a thing. I don't wanna have to update my tattoo :P

+1

On 29.10.13 05:54, AnilG wrote:
> I'm going to use these regardless.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vimlogo.svg will always be a giant

Modern, elegant, crisp.

> but I want to see http://article.gmane.org/gmane.editors.vim/112613
> all over the place.

Primitive, dated, flat, boring.

Sorry, but the proposed "new" icons seem a great step backwards, in
every regard. (You'll have to judge whether that's 2c worth, or you want
some money back.)

Erik


--
Do not do unto others as you would they should do unto you.
Their tastes may not be the same.
- George Bernard Shaw

[Benjamin Klein]

On Oct 29, 2013, at 8:42 AM, Erik Christiansen <dva...@internode.on.net> wrote:

> Sorry, but the proposed "new" icons seem a great step backwards, in
> every regard. (You'll have to judge whether that's 2c worth, or you want
> some money back.)

I am probably not the best judge of the direction in which any given icon is taking steps but I do like the (green!) “Icons” in that attachment at http://article.gmane.org/gmane.editors.vim/112613 and fail to see how they are not either modern or elegant (regarding whether they are “crisp”: that first-linked logo -- the current one, if I am not mistaken -- is an SVG, so...).

Ben

--
b

[Mario Günterberg]

FACK to Eriks opinion.

I think anyone can change the icon in his own installation. What’s wrong with that?
The „old“ icon is one of the small pieces that really everyone knows about vim.

Many software has become new and stylish icons, logos, whatever in the last time. Trendy stuff (flat design - aargh IMHO), but is the software behind better as before?

my 2ct
Mario

[James Beck]

Thanks! I agree. Attached you'll find Windows and Mac icons, as well as
the PDF that contains the original vector graphics. Someone who knows more
about icon formats should probably regenerate these.

You may do with them as you wish.

I'm cross-posting this with vim-dev, so the developers have a chance to
see the proposed icons. You can find the original vim_use thread here:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/vim_use/61DSyLWFeak/SrQnujUbdGkJ

Best,
James

ps: if you've received this message more than once, I apologize profusely.
The Google newsgroup machine was behaving strangely.

[AnilG]

On Friday, 1 November 2013 08:05:01 UTC+11, James Beck wrote:
> Thanks! I agree. Attached you'll find Windows and Mac icons, as well as
> the PDF that contains the original vector graphics. Someone who knows more
> about icon formats should probably regenerate these
>

> You may do with them as you wish.

Thanks very much, James.

I will start using these icons.

Very much appreciated.

[David Larson]

I (for one) love the new logo. I never liked the old one - it gives the impression that VIM was developed by amatures. The new logo gives VIM the professional look it deserves!

[AnilG]

> the old [logo] gives the impression that VIM was developed by amatures. The new logo gives VIM the professional look it deserves!

I think there's some truth in this, David. Open Source initiatives and culture don't always communicate the facts about their performance and value like other commercial ventures.

Hence the world's best software and systems tend to get named with funny names like 'biscuit' something or 'noggin' something and have logos that look more like cuddly animals or teenage comic book characters.

They usually communicate everything that the system itself is not, and hence traction is lost in the community that could really make effective use of them and return financial investment to the developers.

It is truly amazing what the open source community has achieved in only a decade or more even when hampered by these sort of disabilities.

And the reverse is true. Some of the world's worst software achieves massive market share and has billions of dollars of resourcing just because the marketing is there.

I think we can change this. We don't have to stay with the teenage level communications :-)

[Anton Bobrov]

> The new logo gives VIM the professional look it deserves!

Hmph. For me it's a work of undergraduated schoorling. Too primitive, not simple or minimalistic.

[BPJ]

All web sites should be fully functional with JS turned off,
and with any device/OS. Period.
Maybe not the same in every respect -- that's impossible --
but fully functional.

I like clean design, but the new iOS is taking it too far.
Too little relief is just as bad as too much, especially
for us with less than perfect eyesight.

/\
\Vim should have an all-monospace logo, of course!

/bpj

whose website sorely needs an update too,
but I'd strip things down even more!

[Justin M. Keyes]

On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 5:05 PM, James Beck <ja...@jmbeck.com> wrote:
> Thanks! I agree. Attached you'll find Windows and Mac icons, as well as
> the PDF that contains the original vector graphics. Someone who knows more
> about icon formats should probably regenerate these.

I am really glad that Vim's icon is getting some interest and
attention. I skimmed briefly through the July discussion and it didn't
seem like you made any adjustments to your initial proposal. Some of
the criticisms were very valid. Perhaps you would be willing to
provide some alternative concepts?

I know this kind of thing is a magnet for bike-shedding, so it's
tough. Personally I am off-put by the dominance of the diamond shape.
It makes Vim look like trialware for online poker.

Justin M. Keyes

[Chris Lott]

On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 7:35 PM, Justin M. Keyes <just...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am really glad that Vim's icon is getting some interest and
attention.

I am too, and I like the proposed redesign. However, conversation/debate/arguments/insults seem pointless if there isn't some end to it. I assume Bram makes the final call? Does he care? Could this be setup with a time for proposals and a vote? Arguing icon aesthetics on the list could be fun (for some; not so much for others) but it's just going to become another reference point when the next cycle rolls around if there's not some kind of process, no?

c

--
Chris Lott <ch...@chrislott.org>

[Benjamin Klein]

On Nov 7, 2013, at 8:47 AM, Chris Lott <ch...@chrislott.org> wrote:

> I am too, and I like the proposed redesign. However, conversation/debate/arguments/insults seem pointless if there isn't some end to it. I assume Bram makes the final call? Does he care? Could this be setup with a time for proposals and a vote? Arguing icon aesthetics on the list could be fun (for some; not so much for others) but it's just going to become another reference point when the next cycle rolls around if there's not some kind of process, no?

I agree (and I also like the redesign). I do hope that there can be some official process or decision regarding this.

--
b

[Steve Litt]

I agree. And besides that, you don't change logos without a *very* good
and specific reason, and whether this new proposal is better than the
original is arguable.

Check out the history of the Coca Cola icon:

http://tinyurl.com/o6q3nwz

If Coca-Cola can use a decades-old logo, I think Vim can too, and like
Coca-Cola, Vim is a brand, and a very good and recognizable one.

I've heard a few people say the new one is more modern. Often, today's
modern is tomorrow's butt of jokes. Remember when every "modern" website
just had to have frames? What do people say about framed websites today?
When Apple finally proves mortal, fashions will change a lot, and I'd
like to see the current, chiseled icon persist through that and beyond.

If it works, don't fix it. Especially by substituting something
garnering lukewarm support.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt * http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance

[AnilG]

> I agree. And besides that, you don't change logos without a *very* good

> Check out the history of the Coca Cola icon:

> If Coca-Cola can use a decades-old logo, I think Vim can too, and like

I think this is the whole point of contention. I'd like to see that clarified.

The Cola logo has changed, subtly, and the current logo is clearly distinguishable from the 50's logo and they have multiple variants on the theme to keep the communication fresh.

Coca Cola Schweppes has maintained their brand identity while upgrading the logo to communicate to a modern community.

That's what's being proposed here.

I wasn't aware that Vim is a well recognised brand but the upgrade doesn't throw that away, it refreshes it.

I think a executive strategic decision could save a lot of argument here. I'd prefer the boss to just come in and say "we're going to do this - go and do it".

What does the current logo communicate and how does it compare to the alternative? What do we want to communicate? User focus group? User survey?

[Lucas Tadeu Teixeira]

James Beck said:

> What are your thoughts? 

I really liked the 8-bit icon. That green looks pretty nice.

But maybe the logo needs 

shawn wilson said:

> I would also like to see the web site maintained as a public repo.

That would be nice. The website could [certainly] use some sort of refactoring / redesign.

-- 

Lucas Tadeu Teixeira

University of Campinas

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[Marcin Szamotulski]

On 10:41 Fri 08 Nov , Lucas Tadeu Teixeira wrote:
> James Beck said:
>
> > What are your thoughts?
>
> I really liked the 8-bit icon. That green looks pretty nice.
> But maybe the logo needs
>
> shawn wilson said:
>
> > I would also like to see the web site maintained as a public repo.
>
> That would be nice. The website could [certainly] use some sort of refactoring / redesign.
>
> --
> Lucas Tadeu Teixeira
> University of Campinas

Let me vote for the new logo too. I agree that a new look is a good
idea (also for the web site).


Regards,
Marcin Szamotulski