Holy Smokes! uTracer goes wireless!

[nickb]

Here's an alternative to those usb to serial adapters: Bluetooth to serial. I just ordered one to try out for $7. Goodbye pesky wires!

I'll let you know how it works out.

Nick B

[Nick de Smith]

It'll be interesting to see if its immune to SMPS noise from the board - I don't know if Ronald has done much EMC testing...

My data centre engineers use similar BT serial adapters to configure & diagnose comms kit in data centre racks so that they don't have to lurk all the time in the back of racks with their laptops.

Nice thing about using BT is that the adapters are as cheap as chips and automatically provide the galvanic isolation.

Nick

[nickb]

I got the module in the yesterday. The four pins are TXD, RXD, GND and VCC ( 3.3 to 6V). No surprises there. I soldered the module directly to the bottom four pins of a female 9 pin D  type. I cut the trace on the PCB that passes the RXD from the RS232 level translator and the PIC and wired the two ends to the male 9 way D on the uTracer, one to a spare pin and the other to connected to the bluetooth module's output. I

All this just meant that by adding a link to the RS232 connector ( now non-standard) I could plug into a RS232 port or simply plug the D type with the bluetooth in it's place.

My laptop saw the device straight off and and after typing in the pairing code (1234) I had a connection. Two ports showed up COM5 and COM6.  Only COM5 is valid. 

I was able the run uTgui and do a sweep without any problems. BTW, it uses around 30mA.  I'm very happy!

Now I'm thinking about an Android version of uTgui that will connect over bluetooth and run on a smartphone....

Nick B

[Nick de Smith]

I've been playing with a very similar unit and discussing it with Nick B.

The bottom line is that all these modules are natively 3.3V - some have 5V-tolerant Vcc, but not 5V-tolerant logic, specifically on their TX & RX pins.

I've chosen to resolve this by using a small 3.3V/5V converter board that bi-directionally shifts logic levels as well as providing 3.3V for the board - see eBay item 251208215004 - this is pretty much what it would cost me to make and a whole lot more convenient. Using this board you can use pretty much and of the "HC0x" (HC05/HC06 etc.) cheap serial Bluetooth boards on eBay. 

In addition, rather than modify the uTracer board, I simply removed the MAX232C and replaced it with a 16 pin DIL turned pin header, taking power from pins 15 & 16 and using the data connections from 9 & 10.

One thing that is easy to miss with these Bluetooth boards is that their "TX" pin is the BT received data and "RX" is the data to transmit over BT, i.e. their nomenclature is with respect to their interface to the uTracer.

The upshot of this is that you must connect the BT "RX" pin to the uTracer "TX" (IC11, pin 10) and the BT "TX" pin to the uTracer "RX" (IC11, pin 9). Vcc is from pin 16 and GND from pin 15.

I'm doing some detailed tests on noise immunity - i.e. how the various SMPSs on the uTracer impact the BT adapter's performance - so far, all is OK.

HTH

Nick (the other one)

[nickb]

I'd like to add that Nick DS  did find a level conversion board designed for the job off the shelf on eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251208215004

Nick B

On Friday, July 26, 2013 8:14:34 PM UTC-4, nickb wrote:

[Nick de Smith]

Good news!

Works a treat with the nice level adapter card (whose pins line up conveniently). No changes to the uTracer PCB - just remove the MAX232 and use a pin header for 16,15,9 & 10. Don't seem to be any SMPS interference issues.  I'm using Windows 7 64 bit with my laptop's built-in BT adapter - I tried a cheap dongle on a standard W7/64 mini-tower and windows didn't like the adapter, so if you don't have a built-in one, I'd use a decent quality dongle...

For the record, I was using this BT serial board : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151057036889 and this 3.3V/5V level changer (make sure you connect the 3.3V side to the BT serial board!) : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251208215004 . The BT board bonds with a default code of "1234" and serial characteristics of 9600,8,1,N.

Full galvanic isolation and remote access for about USD15./ GBP 10 :)

Hope you find this useful (and a way of protecting those expensive computers!)

Nick (de Smith)

[Martin Manning]

Hi Nick,

I'm interested in looking into a wireless option for my uTracer, but for now I'm wired. I have a working USB to RS232 adapter, but I also have a FTDI TTL-232R USB to TTL adapter. Do you know or can you tell if this cable would work if I removed the Max 232 and connected it directly? It does not work if I connect it to the Rx, Tx, and ground as if it were a USB to RS232. Thanks in advance. 

MPM

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[nickb]

Hi Martin,

FDTI do 5V TTL and 3.3V TTL versions. Just make sure you have  the 3.3V version.

Nick B 

[mman...@fuse.net]

Hi Nick,

I have the 5V version of the FDTI USB to TTL.  What I was thinking is that I could make a wired connection by skipping the RS232 altogether, going straight from the 5V TTL Tx-Rx inputs to the MAX232 to the Rx-Tx of the FTDI USB to TTL (removing the MAX232 from the uTracer board).  Is that feasible?

BTW, my uTracer activity has slowed due to back-ordered parts for the enclosure and patch panel. 

MPM

---

From: "nickb" <ni...@bmamps.com>
To: utr...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 8:15:39 PM
Subject: Re: Holy Smokes! uTracer goes wireless!

[nickb]

I'm afraid not. The MCU chip is LVTTL (i.e. 3.3V max input). I picked up an LVTTL USB serial cable off the web for $2.50 for a different project. It uses the Prolific chip set but I didn't have any problems with it. Or you can just get one of those level converter boards that Nick DS mentioned.

Nick B

[Mike Foo]

I got mine working too ... thanks for the heads up !!! 

[Kevin Kennedy]

I've found that the Belkin USB dongles work fine with the uTracer as well as anything that contains an FTDI made chip. (I have a couple) Note that the alternative gui expects to see two RS-232 ports or misbehaves, as long as you have two ports, a pair of usb adapters or a dual port usb adapter all is well.

[mks...@gmail.com]

An alternate consideration is to use a RS232 bluetooth wireless transceiver, so you can leave your RS232 cable or USB converter if you want a hard wire options for different computers. Since I already had installed a FTDI female DB9-USM adapter converter which is built into my uTracer, I connected an AS7 Engineering EB301 RS232 bluetooth wireless transceiver to the existing RX/TX output of the on board max 232.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bluetooth-Module-Wireless-Transceiver-RS-232-w-Onboard-Chip-Ant-Master-Slave-/271159209324?pt=US_USB_Bluetooth_Adapters_Dongles&hash=item3f22592d6c.  This vendor also sells a 5V TTL version which works with a 5V power and 5V signals, so no power or TTL converter should be needed and you should be able to connect directly to RX/TX of the PIC controller with the 5V TTL version. There are a few other bluetooth wireless transceiver on eBay that seem to support both RS232/TTL inputs, I tried one from a Chinese vendor (no instruction manual), but didn't seem to work as well as the A7. I am using a generic bluetooth dongle V2.0, it is OK, but I do get an occasional dropout when the tester is more than 10' away, so might try another name brand. Evidently the transmit signal power can vary quite a bit between different dongles (from what I have read).

A few interesting observations. Because there I both devices are connected in parallel, you must set the com port and hit the send escape button from the debug panel, otherwise the device may not always connect. Alternatively you may need power down the bluetooth board. I tried several variations, but I seemed to always have to hit the send escape to clear the devices and initiate communications. Even before going wireless, sometimes the uTracer gets locked up when communicated, and hitting the Send escape, clears the communication issues.

Another interesting phenomena is where you pick up power for the bleutooth wireless device. If you pull the 5V power/ground from the connections of the on-board MAX232 pins,  the HV led may flicker or stay on. Interesting, I tried different power source configurations, when I connect the bluetooth ground wire to the negative power supply terminal, the problem disappeared. This also happened with a different bluetooth device I tried. So may be a grounding or noise issue on the uTracer board.

[Nick de Smith]

A few of us have used theJY-MCU V2 version described in https://groups.google.com/d/msg/utracer/oj7JzgMjolw/jrZKY80qNyIJ - I removed the MAX232 and used a pin-header in its place to take off the power & TTL level signals - I've not seen any artifacts on the HV or 5V rails...

Nick

[mks...@gmail.com]

Seems to be some variability in noise immunity with the different wireless bluetooth transceiver devices. With further testing with the AS7 bluetooth unit, once installed, had intermittent transmission errors where I would sometimes loose the last digit of the echoed character string resulting in a time out error. Didn't change with various serial port settings. Also the HV light would flicker depending on the grounding.  I switched to a Serial Module HC-06-D RS232/ TTL with EDR, which so far has been functioning without any communications errors, and no HV led issues. This particular HC-06 version works directly with either serial or 5V TTL signals (see fig.)  http://www.ebay.com/itm/280869181528?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649. As was mentioned, the HC-06 bluetooth transceiver RX attaches to the uTracer DX, and the HC-06 DX to the uTracer RX. Really great to be wireless. Appreciate posting the information.
Mark

[dmreese1]

I saw this module on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/271159209324?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

 

Nick(s) Any feedback on this module??

 

Duane

[Laura Barton]

Get one and see! 

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[dmreese1]

Ordered one and I'll let you know how it goes. My uTracer kit has not yet arrived so it may be a week or two.....

Duane

[mks...@gmail.com]

The wireless modules from A7 http://www.ebay.com/itm/271159209324?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 , do not work well due to issues with communications errors. I tried the A7, and had constant communications errors with multiple commands. I then switched to this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/280869181528?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 which works with both RS232 and TTL. I rarely encounter an error.
Mark

[Martin Manning]

Following up in case anyone else sees this thread and goes this route... The 5V USB-TTL FTDI cable works great going directly into the uTracer controller's TTL Rx-Tx pins, easily done by removing the MAX232 and jumpering the socket pins.  Ronald suggests a 1k8 resistor in series with the Rx connection to prevent the power and HV LED's from illuminating when they shouldn't (a 1/4W 1k8 resistor can be inserted into the MAX232 socket as a jumper from pin 8 to pin 9), and also an 18k pull-up resistor to prevent the Rx pin from floating in the event that the cable is disconnected.  This resistor can be soldered under the PCB from pin 8 (Rx) to pin 16 (+5V) on the MAX232 socket. The Tx connection can be made by inserting a jumper into the MAX232 socket from pin 7 to pin 10. The RS232 header can then be used to connect the FTDI cable.

MPM

[Swamp FX Daniel esteves]

New Utracer user here! And Happy one!

I tried the bluetooth and It works great!

Used this cheap Bluetooth module:
http://store.nerokas.co.ke/image/cache/data/bluetooth-module-breakout-hc-05-500x500-600x600.png

HC05 from ebay

and followed the instructions of Ronald here:
http://dos4ever.com/uTracerNotebook/Notebook.html

My Com port on bluetooth is COM9, so only have to change this on the GUI.
Works Great! No cables anymore!

[johnnyclin...@gmail.com]

I am finding a number of these 5v units discontinued.
Any ideas on finding unit in US?

Thanks

[Swamp FX Daniel esteves]

there is plenty of them

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wireless-Serial-4-Pin-Bluetooth-RF-Transceiver-Module-HC-06-RS232-With-backplane-/112011643715?hash=item1a146a0b43:g:DwEAAOSwOtBXS9l~

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HC-05-HC-08-Interface-Base-Board-Serial-Bluetooth-Transceiver-Module-Arduino-UNO-/272253524121?hash=item3f63931899:g:JsYAAOSwF0NXLUQz

I had mine from ebay. Takes some weeks to arrive but works and is cheep.

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Swampele...@gmail.com

 

Lisboa - Portugal

[0221...@charter.net]

Good Evening.

  I am in the process of purchasing a uTracer from Ronald, and I am hoping for clarification on including Bluetooth.  In using the FTDI TTL-232R-5V or -WE cable, Could I just use a USB dongle plugged into the cable end?  Unfortunately, my electronics training stopped in the early '70's and it doesn't extend to semiconductors and computer logic stuff.  I know enough to get myself in trouboe, that's all.  Any assistance would be deeply appreciated.  Kind Regards,  Joe Rossi

[mman...@fuse.net]

The FTDI cable does not provide the 5V power that the Bluetooth dongle is expecting.

MPM

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Sent: Sunday, June 4, 2017 9:45:04 PM

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[0221...@charter.net]

Thank you Martin.

[Swamp FX Daniel esteves]

for Bluetooth I had to take 5V from the Utracer board, a GND and connect TX and RX as in this page:
http://dos4ever.com/uTracerNotebook/Notebook.html#USB

I used this cheap module from ebay, works great!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BT06-Bluetooth-Serial-Port-Wireless-Data-Module-Compatible-With-HC-06-1Pc-/132166930345?hash=item1ec5c34fa9:g:FfoAAOSwImRYP5pT

any question you can find me on facebook  SwampFXSwampfx

 

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[0221...@charter.net]

Thank you Daniel.  I located the BT06 on the US e-Bay. Going forward, I will let you know how it works once it is built.  Regards,  Joe

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[Swamp FX Daniel esteves]

The only thing that you need with the bluetooth connection is to keep calm working with the Utracer software.

The connection is direct! no problem with that. Turn on computer, turn on utracer, turn on the software and you are ready to go.

You need to avoid multiple commands at the same time. Wait for a process to finish before starting a new one. No idea if this happens with other connections.

I use Utracer for Guitar amps, so a test multiple tubes of the same kind in a row.

I don´t know if I am doing wrong but I never turn OFF the heater supply, I test a tube, I let the process finish, I change the tube do the test without turning off and On the heater supply, like this I can measure 10 or more tubes without any software problem.

The Software isn´t perfect but its great and we are lucky to have such thing. Next step for me is to try the android software.

And the most important:

To get real values on the Quick Test, the tube needs to be warmed first. I use to trace the tube with 5 stepping variables, 15 Nintervals, and then get the values on the Quick Test.

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[Ihor]

I just wanted to share my (not so positive) experience with one of those HC-06 bluetooth modules with the DB9 connector, which were also advertised on the main uTracer website in the Lab Notebook. I recently bought one using the link which was mentioned there (but the link or the specific eBay seller is not the main issue) but it does not work neither with uTracer software nor with the android app. All the connections are good and there is perfect loopback communication between RS232 and Bluetooth virtual comport, when using that device and another USB-RS232 cable. Also all the parameters are as supposed to be: 9600 8N1. The problem I think might be in a newer firmware on that adapter, which is v2.0 (HC-06 hc01.comV2.0). This is the description of the updates, but I am not sure why it matters now for the uTracer, assuming that those HC-06 midulas were wroking before for some people:

The latest zs-040 HC-06 modules have an updated firmware, hc01.comV2.0. This firmware has the following defaults:
– baud rate = 9600
– password = 1234
– nl/cr line endings not required (???)
– AT commands are required to be in upper case
– Firmware version = hc01.comV2.0
– Name = HC-06
– No parity
– SLAVE mode

I tried to listen to the communication between the uTracer and comports using the USB-RS232 cable (in my case port number COM8) and using HC-06 (port COM7). As you can see from the logs, the communication via cable is perfect, using the Ping command in Debug dialog of the software, uTracers sends in the beginning 00.......followed by 16 other characters and then 50 followed by another 16 characters. Each of the characters is echoed by the uTracer. It is enough to see only the response to the first 00 in order to see that something is going wrong. In the case of the USB-RS232 cable, one can see that every SEND command has the corresponding single RECEIVED (which are the echoed characters). In the case of HC-06, after the first 0, uTracer echoes 0, but then echoes 4 more characters. That's confuses uTracer's software and the communication is stopped. The same happens in the case of android app (so the windows bluetooth drivers are not a problem. I can also send those 00 from the Mac OS with the terminal directly, the HC-06 module is recognizable by OSX). I am not sure if this problem is solvable because it looks like it is either the PIC controller implements the serial communication ignoring some specs, or the firmware in the HC-06 module implements some non-standard specs. 

As I mentioned before, with that module and the USB-RS232 cable I can connect them physically and then create 2 comports COM7 and COM8 on my laptop at the same time, and the "loopback" communication between them is "clean" every symbol is transmitted once from both sides. I ordered a few other modules from eBay which has v1.3 written on the PCBs hopping that they do have older firmware, that one that was reported to work with uTracer. I am wondering if anyone else managed to get that newer HC-06 module work with the uTracer. 

Ihor

On Saturday, July 27, 2013 at 2:14:34 AM UTC+2, nickb wrote:

Here's an alternative to those usb to serial adapters: Bluetooth to serial. I just ordered one to try out for $7. Goodbye pesky wires!

I'll let you know how it works out.

Nick B

[Ihor]

Just to add a bit, the only difference in the initialization of the serial communication that I could see is in the screenshot. So in the case of the USB-RS232 cable, the EofChar is 0 and for the HC-06 it is 26 (0x1A). 

One can see that 

typedef struct _SERIAL_CHARS {

UCHAR EofChar; UCHAR ErrorChar; UCHAR BreakChar; UCHAR EventChar; UCHAR XonChar; UCHAR XoffChar; } SERIAL_CHARS, *PSERIAL_CHARS;

and EofChar is defined as:

The EOF (end of file) character. Receipt of this character marks the end of the input stream.

So, probably that "improvement" in the newest firmware of HC-06 ("– nl/cr line endings not required") messes up the whole thing. 

[Big Josh]

Try a different board. Also try with nothing but the board connected. If communication isn't working, reverse the Tx/Rx connections and try again. I've successfully connected with at least 5 different HC-06 and HC-05 boards. I've also used a few different USB boards. I've never run on any type of DB9 serial connector, I'm morally opposed to anything that antiquated. Search for Josh on Ronald's emails page thing on his website, and you'll see my tips for getting BT to work.

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[Ihor]

Hi Josh, 

Thanks for the suggestions! I ordered a few other HC-06 boards and will see how it goes. I am pretty sure that there are no physical connection errors because I tested multiple configurations and I get what I expect. That HC-06 module with the DB9 connector is actually plug-and-play, so one cannot mess up with the connection, and then if one uses the android app for the uTracer then one avoids all the windows driver problems (if you would suspect that). 

The simple way to repeat the problem is to connect the module to the uTracer and then send 0, it should return 0, then send 0 again and then it returns 0, and so on (the protocol is described on Ronald's website. So, in case of HC-06, the response that my PC (or android phone) gets after the first 0, is 0 and then 4 other (weird) characters. That of course stops the whole further communication. 

Do you think any of your modules have the newer 2.0 firmware (it is possible to check it with AT+VERSION command). I can also try to connect Tx/Rx directly from the module, but I do not thing that's the problem because on my RS232 module there is only a simple MAX232 convertor from 3.3v tx/rx to rs232 logic levels.

I read that HC-05 has a different end of line requirements, did it also work for you? 

P.S. In the end, I would like to make a general remark that I just wanted to bring that issue to the attention to other people who might want to try those HC-06 modules and would not understand why things do not work. Those HC-06 modules are mentioned on Ronald's website but they are not suggested or advertised by him. As I understood, he just shared the experience of some people who had success with those modules. So one should experiment with those or other modules at their own risk. The conclusion is that some of HC-06 will work and some will not. There is also statement there that "This HC06 module comes on the ZS-040 backplane..." but I am pretty sure that that backplane does not guarantee that the module will work. I saw HC-06 BT modules with other chip configuration on the same backplane, plus there is still an issue with the newer firmware, which explicitly states that they changed things in the communication sequence.  

[Big Josh]

I have no idea about the firmware versions, and I'm far too lazy to check...but the board I'm using now was purchased in the last couple months. If you're using a different board connected at the same time, that could confuse it. If you saw my setup on the testimonial page, then you can see the stuff I removed from the PIC that only is useful for DB9 serial use. If your issue really is based on the firmware, then replacing the board with a different one will likely work. The reason I suggest swapping Tx/Rx is because some people connect them backwards. Tx/Rx is from the PIC to the BT board = Tx BT to Rx PIC and vice versa.

Thanks,

Josh

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[Ihor]

just to add results on some other test. I just connected that that HC-06 to my quite old Siglent SDS1072CML oscilloscope, which has an RS232 connector at the back and I managed to connect to that oscilloscope with bluetooth from my PC and exchange commands without any problems (using the Siglent's software). So, even though there is a variation of firmwares on HC-06 modules, some of which work with the uTracer and some of which do not, the new firmware of HC-06 is still "good' because it works without any problems with other devices. I would say it boils down to the implementation of the communication within the uTracer's PIC... 

[Ihor]

I think trying the direct connection to Tx/Rx of the PIC will be my next step but probably a bit later. I wanted to avoid all major modifications and keep RS232 as a main interface (for my old desktop PC), but then I thought that having the possibility to connect via BT for the android app would be also nice, and that HC-06 module with the DB9 connector is, in theory, was supposed to be a perfect solution :)

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[Ihor]

To eliminate a few other possibilities I did 2 more experiments, which still lead to the conclusion that there is something specific to the uTracer and not the HC-06 BT module with the newest firmware. 

1) I connected the HC-06 using the RS232 connector to the native comport of my old desktop PC (that machine played the role of fake uTracer) and then connected via BT to that port from my laptop. On the laptop I ran uTracer software, which sent Ping ( 00000000008F400808500000000000000000). In response I send the proper echo manually from the terminal of the old PC (00000000008F400808500000000000000000100000000000000000000000FF0388000000FF) and the uTracer's software on the laptop was happy to see that. So, everything worked out as expected. the same was with the android app, which was fooled to thing that the old PC is a uTracer

2) I wrote a small script for Arduino (that just echos what comes to its serial and in there is the '50' command, it sends a proper "10" response back). With that I could also full both the android app and the uTracer Software (see the attached video).

So, the only problem with that module is when I plug it into real uTracer. As soon as I send the first 0 (the proper response should be just 0) but I get this back:

0¸ü100000000000000000002B002B031C02870000þ. 

or in HEX

30 b8 fc 31 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 32 42 30 30 32 42 30 33 31 43 30 32 38 37 30 30 30 30 fe 2e

So somehow uTracer responds to the single 0 as to some more complete command, returning some sort of measurement. It might be also some initialization "garbage" or something in the buffer that gets transmitted and the uTracer responds to it immediately after the first 0. It would be interesting to see if someone has an idea. Hopefully I will get another HC-06 module with RS232 for a test. One day I might try to connect Tx/Rx pins on that HC-06 module to the PIC controller directly (with proper 3.3V divider) but I do not think that's the problem (only if those MAX232 chips on the module and in the uTracer can mess up something so much). 

[Ihor]

After some suggestions I decided to dig into that problem with an oscilloscope. It looks like the problem is with the RS232 interface somewhere and on a rather hardware level I would say. Probably someone will have some suggestions, but again I do not see any clean and easy solution taking into account that my two other RS232 cables work with uTracer without any problems. So, when I plug in everything but disconnect the TX (coming from the uTracer) from the HC-06's RX and connect uTracer's TX (on the RS232 connector) to the oscilloscope, I can see nice clean responses from the uTracer: I sent 0 over HC-06 BT and I see the proper response 0 (9 bits, the attached image with a short response). Now, if I connect everything as it should be, the problem appears, and the problem is in the actual sending part. If I send 0, what is actually transmitted by HC-06 (at its RX at RS232) is a total mess (see the other screenshot). Also different digits, 0, 1, 2... have different "tails" some are shorter (the one from 0 is the longest), if I send 1, HC-06 actually sends 1 and then only 2 extra crappy characters in the tail (which are then echoed by the uTracer). So, in conclusion, connecting the TX from uTracer's MAX232 messes up what is sent by HC-06 at its RS232 TX..... After all that, I suspect that I probably will not have any problems with using the 3.3V TX/RX connections available on the HC-06 module, but the idea was to have a simple DB9 connection:)   

[PSchaefer]

So you get the correct data from the HC-06 into the µTracer, and you get the proper response from the µTracer as long as its TxD is open. And as soon as you connect TxD to the HC-06 you get weird stuff coming out of the µTracer -- correct?

Is it possible that some kind of local echo is enabled for the HC-06? In that case is would echo back the bytes sent by µTracer, who would interpret this echo as another command and send an additional response, etc. I.e. does the data on the RxD line change when you connect TxD?

Patrick

[Thomas Mayfield]

You’ve probably checked that all your input and output levels are the same... 5V, 3.3V and so on?

Tom M

"Never bite off more than you can chew, unless it’s Chocolate.”

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From: utr...@googlegroups.com <utr...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of PSchaefer <dr.p.s...@gmx.de>
Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 9:54:49 AM
To: uTracer <utr...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Holy Smokes! uTracer goes wireless!

So you get the correct data from the HC-06 into the µTracer, and you get the proper response from the µTracer as long as its TxD is open. And as soon as you connect TxD to the HC-06 you get weird stuff coming out of the µTracer -- correct?

Is it possible that some kind of local echo is enabled for the HC-06? In that case is would echo back the bytes sent by µTracer, who would interpret this echo as another command and send an additional response, etc. I.e. does the data on the RxD line change when you connect TxD?

Patrick

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[Ihor]

Hi Patrick and Tom

To clarify the situation a bit and to document those things for myself, I made a small diagram.

The situations is as follows. If the switch is off (the line BTRS_Rx-uTRS_Tx is broken) then by sending "0" I can see a clean "0" with the oscilloscope on BTRS_Tx (and also the echo on uTRS_Tx). Now, when I connect the switch (connecting BTRS_Rx and uTRS_Tx, as it should be in normal operation) and send "0", I can see strange sequence with the oscilloscope on the BTRS_Tx line (which is then also echoed by the uTracer and is visible on uTRS_Tx). Before I was only using the software serial monitor, and I only saw the wrong response from the uTracer to my "0" but because that software monitor could not see what's is happening with the sent signal on the actual wire.

Probably during the next weekend I will explore a bit more. A few observations:

- the wiring is not shielded... but on such a short distances is should not be the problem. Also, it does not look like a random interference because I get the same "random" response over multiple days and setups of wires during my experiments. The response is actually different in terms on the length for different digits that I sent. 

- the missing or floating grounds should be excluded. As I mentioned, I use the same RS232 connector on the uTracer with a native comport on my ole PC and with a USB-RS232 cable, and in both cases everything works as expected. 

- messing up 3.3V and 5V levels in that configurations is not really possible, because I keep the whole connection via RS232

- connecting that HC-06 module directly to the comport of old PC and communicating back and forth works fine, no random things appearing anywhere. 

- connecting that HC-06's BT_Rx and BT_Tx to Arduino's Tx/Rx and communicating back and forth (with a kind of "echo" script that pretends to be a uTracer") also works fine

- the next step will probably be connecting BT_Rx and BT_Tx directly to uT_Tx and uT_Rx (of course taking into account 3.3V-5V level shifting). I expect that to work but the idea was to have that HC-06 module as a nice external plug and play device, in case I want to use BT interface. 

- as can be see in that image, the inputs of SP3232 are not weekly pulledup as in the case of MAX232. I tried to do that but it did not fix the problem. The schematics in the middle-top shows the datasheet for that smaller BT sub-module and how id should be interfacing other devices. So far, it is not like that in that HC-06 module, but probably direct connections are fine (or not, and actually causing the problem). This pullup story is very similar to what Ronald described here: https://www.dos4ever.com/uTracerNotebook/Notebook.html#USB

- I am also waiting for one more (slightly different) sample of that HC-06. It could be that I have some kind of faulty sample, but again, it works with other devises (except uTracers) without any problems.

In principle I am Ok with using the RS232 cable daily, but right now I am just curious and want to figure out what the problem is. The solution might be not implementable anyway, because soldering anything on that HC-06 module (all those SMDs) is not what I am going to do:) 

Cheers, 

Ihor

[Ihor]

So you get the correct data from the HC-06 into the µTracer, and you get the proper response from the µTracer as long as its TxD is open. And as soon as you connect TxD to the HC-06 you get weird stuff coming out of the µTracer -- correct?

Almost correct, when I connect TxD to the HC-06 I get weird stuff coming from HC-06's TX (which is then echoed by uTracer).

Is it possible that some kind of local echo is enabled for the HC-06? In that case is would echo back the bytes sent by µTracer, who would interpret this echo as another command and send an additional response, etc. I.e. does the data on the RxD line change when you connect TxD?

There is echo mode on those devices for AT commands, but AT-mode is switched off as soon as the BT connection is established with any other device. 

To confuse interested readers a bit more, I did a few experiments with 3.3V Rx Tx lines coming from the BT module (in the pdf above, they are named BT_Rx and BT_Tx). 

So, I measured what is the signal on BT_Tx (BT_TX_ClosedLine00.mov and BT_TX_ClosedLine50.mov) while sending the beginning of the uTracers's basic commands 00.... and 50..... Everything appears to be clean, so connecting in that way to the uTracer's PIC might work but that's not what I was looking for. 

Next I disconnected the utRS_TX line coming from uTracer into HC-06 and monitored BTRS_TX while sending 50... (BTRS_Tx_OpenLine50). Also, everything is as it should be. 

Finally, I connected all the lines as they should be and monitored  BTRS_TX while sending 00... and 50....(BTRS_Tx_ClosedLine50.mov and BTRS_Tx_ClosedLine00.mov). Now here the problem is clearly seen. After the first digit, there is crap in the tail of the RSS232 signal, after the second, there is also because uTracer still echoes something. After sending 2 digits (50) it looks like uTracer hangs and does not echo anything (for the 00.. command it actually hangs after the first zero), after that "hang" everything that is sent by HC-06 over RS232 is perfectly clean and as it should be (so it would also eliminate the suspicious that there is something wrong with the physical wiring on the level of interference)..... for now, no further ideas :) 

The movies can be found here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1V20G8TXk1q_4zyP8Ye_WGa7yBTqtfGDB

Ihor

 

[Ihor]

Finally the HC-06 works :) So nothing is wrong with the uTracer and also with the new firmware on those HC-06 modules. All the above described experiments, as well as some new ones, revealed that there is a purely parasitic echo on the RS232 interface of the HC-06 within the module: any electric signal on RS_Tx line "leaks" with a smaller amplitude to the RX line. That's why when the uTracer was sending the response to the BT module, that "ghost" signal was appearing on the uTracer's Rx line and was treated like another command. The test with the native comport on the desktop PC did not show any problems because the amplitude of ghost echo is always around 4-5V. The native post works with +/-11V and apparently had no problems with ignoring that "noise". uTracer works with +/-6V and considers that noise as a valid signal.

I desoldered T2out pin on the SP3232 and could not see any ghosting/echo signal coming from the chip, which was a good news. Unfortunately I broke that pin and could not do any other check, but apparently something on the PCB creates some weak shortage. Luckily SP3232 has 2 channels for the conversion between RS and TTL levels. So, not I use T1in and T1out (as can be see in the image) and I also unsoldered pin3 (DB9) from the HC-06 PCB and connected that T1out directly with the DB9's pin, to avoid that signal going through the PCB. Everything works as expected. uTraces software works, even though it is a bit slower but ok. 

The android app actually does not work well, but it is a problem with the app I would say. In the android app I can now start the heater, and then run the test and can hear that the measurements are performed, but in the end I get that uTracer did not returned any measurements in a reasonable time and the worst thing is that the HighVoltage LED stays on and the app crashes. So then I have to connect a normal cable and rerun any test to discharge the caps. The problem with the android app is that it does not do many proper checks. uTracer checks every returned character, one by one, and stops immediately if there is something wrong. In the android app the whole sequences (like 000000000000000000500000000000000000) are send and I am not even sure how they are checked because with the non-working HC-06 module I could still get into the app and even start the heater (apparently nothing was checked because in that case uTracer was echoing complete garbage, which was actually done not by the uTracer but the HC-06).

[Big Josh]

That's not the apps fault. There's two things that generally cause that. 1. could be Bluetooth connectivity issues. 2. your uTracer could have any number of issues that causes a break in communication. A parasitic oscillation could cause a fault in the test, and crash the communication between the app and the uTracer.

You have to keep in mind that the app is functionally basic and very effective at what it does. If communication is broken between the two devices, just shut off or unplug the uTracer to reset it.

You're using mediocre devices to bridge two more advanced devices, and then you're blaming an app for the hardware deficiency. 

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[Ihor]

Hi Josh,

I am not blaming any hardware deficiency (I am not sure which hardware we are talking about). I am just saying that after solving the problem with my HC-06 I can successfully connect to uTracer and fully use its windows software. Now, when I connect and reconnect with the android app, it does not work. So that's just what I reported. 

The second claim was that the android app does not do any thorough checks what is sent and what is received, and it can be quite dangerous. Here I can show how I can trick the android app to think that I am a uTracer by sending incorrect strings in response (uTracer's software does not allow that because there is a check for every symbol). So here is the whole communication:

00000000008F08080850000000000000000000000000008F08080850000000000000000000000000008F400808500000000000000000100000000000000000000000FF0388000000FF40000000000000005210004600460045005210005C005C00990052100000000000000000000000FF0388000000FF10004800460045005210005C005C00990052100000000000000000000000FF0388000000FF10004300460045005210005C005C00990052100000000000000000000000FF0388000000FF10004600480045005210005C005C00990052100000000000000000000000FF0388000000FF10004600430045005210005C005C00990052100000000000000000000000FF0388000000FF1000460046004C005210005C005C00990052100000000000000000000000FF0388000000FF1000460046003E005210005C005C00990052100000000000000000000000FF0388000000FF3000000000000000005000000000000000000

or if you split it: 

-the app initializes the utracer and wants to get some info from it

00000000008F08080850000000000000000000000000008F080808500000000000000000

-I am sending the wrong response and the app is happy and let me put the heater voltage

00000000008F400808500000000000000000100000000000000000000000FF0388000000FF

-the app puts the heater voltage:

400000000000000052

 does not even check if it was successful or not

-the app runs the quick test for tubes:

100046004600450052

-I respond with the wrong echo and the measurements:

10005C005C00990052100000000000000000000000FF0388000000FF

-the app is happy with the wrong response and sends another response like that because the measurements are repeated a few times:

100048004600450052

-gets back again wrong echo

10005C005C00990052100000000000000000000000FF0388000000FF

and so on

100043004600450052 

10005C005C00990052100000000000000000000000FF0388000000FF

100046004800450052

10005C005C00990052100000000000000000000000FF0388000000FF

So this is what I meant by quality: there is no error correction or detection implementation in that app. If some communication, as you mention, gets corrupted, the app can apply all the 450V and think that it is a measurement for 10V or so. 

I see if I can dig into the problem with the real communication between the app and the uTracer through that HC-06 and will report what was wrong in my case.

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[Big Josh]

The hardware deficiency is the adapter you're using. The app is a simple tool. It sends and responds to basic functions of the uTracer- that's all it's designed to do. You're expressing that your hardware is sending corrupted information, and then expecting the app to somehow make up for your hardware specific issues. That's not how any app works. I don't know why you don't simply fix your hardware issues. Get rid of the adapter you're using, DB9 serial ports should all be in landfills at this point. Use a simple HC-06, and make it switchable with a USB adapter (I've had no issues at all with multiple usb boards). Only power one comm board at a time, and you shouldn't see any more of these hardware issues.

The easiest way to turn off the HV LED is to unplug or switch off the uTracer. Doing all that extra stuff shouldn't be necessary at all.

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[Ihor]

I am not denying that the hardware (HC-06) has a deficiency. That's what this all post is about. The hardware is cheap and crap, with some parasitic capacitance or connections on the PCB or with fake SP3232 chip. What I was mentioning (without any blame) that even for such problematic hardware uTracers software does a better job in detecting errors and rejecting to work with crap. The android app is written for a perfect world, where no communication breaks and no errors are happening and that's the problem that I was mentioning. People already design lots of checks in the serial protocol, parity, flow control, etc. just to deal with reality on the software level. uTracer does it in its own way, which is a very basic error-check. It send a command byte by byte, check echo of each of them and only if everything is correct executes the commend (actually, it even executes the command when the last byte is wrong, I think, because if it is the case, it is too late to stop - the uTracer's hardware will execute the wrong command but at least uTracer will know that). The improvements that the idealistic android app could benefit from: 1) it is good to send the whole command (18 bytes) byte by byte and not in one go, because if something is corrupted in the string, right now the command will be executed anyway (the way uTracer does it, as I saw in on practice with crapy hardware, is more robust) 2) it is good to "read" and "analyze" in the software what uTracer echos back (and not just ignore it). That will improve the robustness of the app to errors in communication and realistic situations. Those things are nothing special to implement and saying that they are not there is not a blame but a suggestion. The app constantly improves so that's great!

About the HV LED, when it is left on by the android app, I was switching on and off for about 3-4 mins and it was still on. When I connect uTraces software and run the debug I still see 170V on the screen. Then I have to run some dummy tube test and then the LED goes off. 

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[Ihor]

So, the last inconsistency with the crappy HC-06 RS232 module has also been solved. Apparently there was still some residual parasitic connection between the RS Tx and Rx, even though the Tx line has already been disconnected from the main PCB (and that removed a huge coupling between those two signals). After that the uTraces worked and the android app did not. The problem was in the way they send the commands: utracer does one byte by one and android app the whole 18 bytes. Apparently when each symbols are send separately, there is not much influence of that parasitic coupling between Rx/Tx lines. So sending 40000000000000006A to switch on the heater was ok for the uTracer, but when it was done by the app, the uTracer was getting 4000000000000000<A. If I sent 6, A, or 6A utracer would get 6, A, or 6A as it should. When the sequence was longer, 06A, 006A, then uTracer would get 0>A or 00>A, indicating that there is still interference on Tx line from the Rx, but to a lesser extend. So I lifted up the other Rx pin on SP3232 and connected directly to the pin 2 on DB9 (the pin was also disconnected from the board, see the screenshots). The HC-06 looks butchered now but it works. 

As a conclusion, I am not sure if I just got a faulty sample or the problem will occur in all the samples for that specific manufacturer. I ordered one more module like that but which looks a bit different (exactly as on Ronald's website). I hope it will work without any issues from the very beginning. I also know that some people here also already ordered a few of those and hopefully will share their experience. I hope this information will help people who buy those cheap "crappy" modules that in the end work just great and cost about 5$. More serious (boxed) alternatives on Mouser cost 30$ or more and are probably not of interest to DIYers. One can still connect HC-06 directly to the TxRx of the PIC controller as was suggested before, but it might be too complicated for some of the people, or too straightforward (no fun) for some of us.    

[Big Josh]

I've had the same issue with the HV occur when the uTracer GUI crashes. Multiple times. The GUI loves crashing. I don't know why your HV stays on though after shutting it off, that's pretty weird. I've never had to do anything more than shut off the AC to the uTracer to settle it in those instances. Your experience doesn't make any sense unless there's an issue with caps discharging, but even then, the voltage you're reporting sounds high. 

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[Ihor]

Hi Josh, 

The voltage is in the range what was applied in the test. So it is some sort of residual. To me the situation looks pretty normal that when the software hangs and drops the hardware (uTracer) in the middle of the test, the caps stay charged. In my case, the original software crashes not so often, sometimes randomly but mostly when I double click Measure by accident or something like that. Have you tried the alternative software:

https://bmamps.com/v01/home/techie-corner/utracer/

 

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[Big Josh]

The caps can take time to discharge, but they should discharge on their own with no power source.

I have tried that alternate GUI. There's things I like about both, if both GUI developers worked together, we'd have one awesome GUI.

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[BHdeC]

That UTMax never worked for me. Always popup an error and that's it.

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[nickb]

If you don't follow the installation instructions you will get the pop-up error.  The important thing is that the utmax_files folder is located in your home directory so  that writing to the files is no blocked by Windows.

-Nick

[Big Josh]

I think there was an error with one previous version, but if you don't follow the UTMax directions PDF exactly, it won't work. The utMax_Files folder goes in local disc C:\users\username\utMax_Files. Inside that utMax_Files folder, you need cal.txt, and data.csv, and then the utmax program in a subfolder called "utmax_program_files" - if it's not setup like that, you get nothing but errors. It's kind of annoying that you can't install it anywhere, but it should work like that.

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[nickb]

No, that is not correct. The utMax_Files folder (conatins data.csv and cal.txt) must be located in your home folder (i.e C:\users\username on Windows).  The executable, along with all shared libraries, can go into any other folder, just so long as they are in the same folder.

--Nick

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[Ihor]

Not to go into off-topic even more, but in my case the utMax also does not really work. I heard about it only a few days ago and I tried to use it. It actually starts and connects to the com-port and can read ADC. I am not sure what kind of error dialog you get, but I always get complain about the grid voltage (for any tube that I select, or the voltage that I put, see the attachment). The program is claimed to be portable and for now is in my home directory in the Downloads folder. 

Also, strange that for, for example EL84 I cannot select the checkbox "Va/g2=Va1", so to test that pentode in triode mode. 

Another note is that in the manual, for the sensing resistor specification, it says "This is the value of the current sense resistor for the anode. Set for the current range of your uTracer i.e. 9 for uTracer 3 and uTracer 3+ or 18 for the unofficial uTmax hardware version." but in fact it should be 18 for uTracer3(+) and 9 for the uTmax mode, so be careful. The default cal.txt file is ok, and has 18 there. 

[BHdeC]

Sorry to the OP if I derailed the thread.

Same error here. Plus I used an external heater supply so it won't work.

[Ihor]

With the help of Nick, it looks like that error in my case is due to the wrong placement of the files. So one has to really follow these steps (otherwise it will not work):

• Unzip the downloaded uTmax.zip into your home directory i.e. /Users/YourName/. This will create a folder named uTmax_files.

• In the folder utMax_files\uTmax_program_files, you will find the executable uTmax.exe. You can create a shortcut and add to your Start menu, if you wish.

The external heater should now be a problem, I am also using one. There is no "feedback" if it is there, if it is on, or what the voltage is. So the software just tries to switch it on and assumes that it was successfully done because there is no way to check it. 

[Big Josh]

It works as I described, and it was the only way I didn't have any issues with it running.

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[nboba...@gmail.com]

I run both uTmax versions (Linux and windows) with no issues and the program is working just fine. Still like  UTracer more.

Boban

On Jan 16, 2020, at 10:47 AM, BHdeC <norman...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[nickb]

Big_Josh: Please contact me via the website bmamps.com and I'll try to help you get set up properly.

Others, out of respect for the OP and to keep things tidy please no more discussion on utmax in this thread. If you need help please contact me directly via the website. Thanks.

Nick

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[Big Josh]

I like the uTracer GUI better too. But if they were combined, they'd be better. Better quality graphs in utmax, and saved tube model data is great too. If the uTracer GUI had those features, it would be awesome. Both of them appear like they were programmed 20 years ago.

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[Ihor]

Just a small update about those BT RS232 modules. Today I've received another module like that (see the photos, the one to the left) but with a different backplate. I have not checked the firmware version but visually both HC-06's are the same. The new module works without any problems! As was mentioned above, there was no problem with the actually BT module (and the TTL outputs). The problem was with a low quality backplate or soldering that has some parasitic coupling between the Rx an Tx lines around the MAS3232 chip.