Scout Sunday

[David Akerman]

Hoping to do a launch on Sunday, from a site about midway between Nottingham and Mansfield.  Nothing special - video plus 2 telemetry payloads, probably to around 30km.

Expecting to launch around 1pm or so.

Would appreciate a few listeners please, especially any "up north" :)

First tracker is "5thSCOUT" (which you'll find right at the top of the list in dl-fldigi).  This is actually Upu's pAVA tracker that I rescued from the triffids a couple of weeks ago.  Telemetry unchanged aside from the payload ID.

Second tracker is "BUZZ", exactly the same as I flew last time.

Assuming a decent 3G connection I'll be running a live video stream from the launch site and hopefully the chase and recovery too.

QUICK REF

=========

5thSCOUT:  434.200Mhz 7N2 with a 500Hz shift 50 baud RTTY

BUZZ:  434.300Mhz 7N2 500Hz shift @ 50 baud RTTY

Video:  http://www.batc.tv/streams/m0upu

Dave

[mjc...@aol.com]

Hi all

I might also be launching this Sunday ( 29th ) from Elsworth, Cams ... I'll keep an eye on the weather and confirm late tomorrow .. I'll be on 434.375 and hoping this will not cause any problems or interference with Dave who's also launching Sunday on 434.300 ... please let me know if anyone thinks otherwise...


Cheers


Michael ( Bello Mondo )

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[Dave]

That'll be almost in my 'back yard' so I hope to listen.

 

Cheers - Dave (G0DJA)

[mjc...@aol.com]

Hi all,

Just wanted to confirm a launch this Sunday from Elsworth, Cambridgeshire.. I'm planning to launch about 10.30 / 11.00 ish .. all listeners/trackers welcome.. cheers.

Will be on:-

434.375Mhz
425 Shift
50 Baud
1.5 Stop

Payload call sign is:- MONDO-3 and can be selected in the payload drop down list on Dl-Fldigi ..


Cheers

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: David Akerman <calt...@gmail.com>
To: ukhas <uk...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 12:23
Subject: [UKHAS] Scout Sunday

[PhilipM]

Good luck with the weather and launches.

I'm curious about the amateur radio aspect. I understand the principle of getting a GPS fix, encoding and transmitting it, decoding it and uploading it to a central server where it is overlaid onto a map (very clever stuff). What I am curious about is the listeners. How many would you expect? Is this something that ordinary HAMers (is that the term?) will subscribe to? I imagine gentlemen with pipes and beards tapping on mechanical morse keys in a smokey cellar, but I'm sure that's a somewhat antiquated view!

One other quick Q while I think of it. The transmitters frequency shift during flight. I'm assuming this is due to temperature change of the crystal? Why not use temperature compensated crystals, or have the microcontroller shift the transmission frequency based on the temperature and a simple lookup?

And while I'm on a roll, what about using the RFM22B as a receiver too? Partnered with an arduino, would it be a good alternative to a Yaesu transceiver for ground tracking? 

Once again, good luck on Sunday. =)

[David Akerman]

We've seen up to 15 listeners on a single payload at the same time.  Pretty much it's just people here rather than your average radio ham.

Yes the transmitted frequency does shift with temperature, but it's not that big a deal.  The decoding software auto-tunes so you just need to adjust the receiver frequency when the incoming tones fall off one end or the other of the audio band.  There's also the possibility to have the receiver frequency adjusted automagically from the PC via a serial or USB cable - I did this last time and just left it running when I set of to chase the payload.

The receiver needs to be sensitive, hence the use of Yaesu etc., and more recently the Funcube dongle.  These EZCAP SDRs aren't as sensitive but otherwise work well and just need a pre-amp - Upu should have some filtered ones available soon.

Dave

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[Dave]

----- Original Message -----

>I'm curious about the amateur radio aspect. I understand the principle of getting a GPS fix, encoding and transmitting >it, decoding it and uploading it to a central server where it is overlaid onto a map (very clever stuff). What I am curious >about is the listeners. How many would you expect? Is this something that ordinary HAMers (is that the term?) will >subscribe to? I imagine gentlemen with pipes and beards tapping on mechanical morse keys in a smokey cellar, but >I'm sure that's a somewhat antiquated view!

 

 

We're not all geography teachers with patches on the elbows of our jackets you know ;-)

 

APRS has, and still is, quite regularly heard on the Amateur 2M band (144MHz) using either the American DosAPRS/WinAPRS (and other flavours of the same) or programs like UI-View (developed by a UK radio amateur who is sadly no longer with us) with systems such as digipeaters and iGates that will take the transmitted posits, route them via the internet to other iGates around the world and then retransmit them to local stations.

 

Although I am a keen CW user, I rarely use the HF bands, prefering VHF and UHF bands and get up to such tricks as bouncing signals off aircraft, rain, meteors and even the aurora borealis (Northern Lights) to get VHF and UHF signals to propagate over long distances. I also know, and talk to., people who bounce signals off the Moon, but that's a bit out of my league at the moment.

 

For HAB the frequencies and powers available are alot more restricted but you may be surprised how many radio amateurs are also interested in tracking the balloon flights and in making their own payloads up to fly as well.

 

Dave (AKA Morseman and also G0DJA)

[PhilipM]

Thanks Dave. The FUNcube dongle looks like a great product. Should it get a mention in the tracking guide? http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide =)

[Anthony Stirk]

Just watch this space I'm hoping to test and document using a cheap SDR and a home made Antenna.

It's all ready just needs to be tested.

Anthony M0upu

Sent from my iPhone

On 27 Jul 2012, at 17:01, PhilipM <phi...@philipm.com> wrote:

Thanks Dave. The FUNcube dongle looks like a great product. Should it get a mention in the tracking guide? http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide =)

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[PhilipM]

We're not all geography teachers with patches on the elbows of our jackets you know ;-)

LOL! I had you down more as spitfire designer types, polishing the rivets on your antenna(e?) to get that extra few km. Your next couple of paragraphs put it much more eloquently than I could. Bouncing off things like meteors is surely the height of boffinry. =)

 

For HAB the frequencies and powers available are alot more restricted but you may be surprised how many radio amateurs are also interested in tracking the balloon flights and in making their own payloads up to fly as well.

I have a software engineering background and a degree which included some digital electronics, so it seems simple to me to cobble together and program a tracker. Would more open source boards and specific libraries for payloads be useful to get more people into the hobby (lowering the technical barrier to entry)? It seems the ground end is more developed than the flight kit imho.

[Mark Jessop]

I have a software engineering background and a degree which included some digital electronics, so it seems simple to me to cobble together and program a tracker. Would more open source boards and specific libraries for payloads be useful to get more people into the hobby (lowering the technical barrier to entry)? It seems the ground end is more developed than the flight kit imho.

I think there should be a technical barrier to entry. It forces Joe Bloggs to seriously think about what they're getting into, and to learn how to do things safely. It only takes one person to stuff up and land a balloon in a military base to screw it up for everyone.

- Mark VK5QI

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[PhilipM]

I think there should be a technical barrier to entry. It forces Joe Bloggs to seriously think about what they're getting into, and to learn how to do things safely. It only takes one person to stuff up and land a balloon in a military base to screw it up for everyone.
- Mark VK5QI

I actually changed upon the UKHAS by accident. I was pretty much ready to put a canon compact and spot tracker under a balloon and seek CAA approval. For that there is no technical barrier. 

I do fully agree with your point though, the continued enjoyment of the hobby depends on good practice. For that, we should surely be drawing people to organisations such as UKHAS? A tracker module could actually be good advertising to help bring aspiring balloonists to UKHAS?

[Dave]

>I think there should be a technical barrier to entry. It forces Joe Bloggs to seriously think about what they're getting >into, and to learn how to do things safely. It only takes one person to stuff up and land a balloon in a military base to >screw it up for everyone.

>- Mark VK5QI

 

The problem here is, how to enforce this 'technical barrier'?

 

For instance, would you want to limit my ability to launch? I have no previous experience, I've never launched any balloon and I've never been involved with anyone who has.

 

So, what do you want me to do before I'm allowed to launch?

 

Personally, I would look to the predictions before launching and, I hope, I would try to make a value judgement about the soundness of a decision to launch, but how will anyone be able to tell if my 'rookie' judgement is sound?

 

Talk of 'Joe Bloggs' is all very well but 'Joe Bloggs' probably doesn't wake up one day and say "You know what, I'll launch a balloon today, I don't know why, nor will it be very well planned, but it's a nice day so I'll do it anyway..."

 

If they do, then none of your barriers to entry will be of any use anyway...

 

Dave (G0DJA - Morseman)

[David Akerman]

Of course anyone can use an off-the-shelf GSM/GPS tracking device, so there exists no real technical barrier to launch.  These things are sold on Amazon etc. so you can keep track of wandering cats and grannies.  In fact what got me into the hobby in the first place was a YouTube video of 2 guys using one of these plus a camera and camcorder.  The simplicity appealed, but of course once I started researching I found out about the radio-based distributed tracking system, and realised that that was by far the best way to know where the balloon was in flight and to have the best chance of recovering it.

Now if at that point I'd seen a widget for sale that would make my balloon become part of that network, no electronics or software experience required, then my research could have finished at about that point.  I'd have an excellent chance of recovery and I'd be able to fly within a very short space of time - maybe just 28 days assuming I'd read about the CAA requirement by that point; less if not.  However if such a device wasn't available I'd have the choice between using a GPS/GSM module and risking losing my cameras etc., or designing and coding a tracker.  The latter of course requires some technical knowledge and also slows down the entire development process considerably.  Very considerably sometimes.  During that process I'd have plenty of time to peruse the wiki and HAB projects on the web, find #highaltitude and ask hopefully intelligent questions.  The chances of doing this yet not learning about the prediction software, burst calculator and legal requirements are low.

So whilst I agree that the existence of GSM/GPS modules means that is no real technical challenge to launch, we shouldn't make it even more attractive to launch without knowledge by providing newcomers with pre-built pre-coded radio trackers.  The lack of such a device isn't a 100% deterrent but it's all we've got.

Dave

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[David Akerman]

On the other hand, is anyone interested in my new book* ....  http://i.imgur.com/OWAVg.png ?

:-)

Dave

* No, not really!

[mjc...@aol.com]

Morning all,


Just wanted to say I'll probably launching at 10.00 ish this morning,,,,


Many thanks

Michael ( Bello Mondo )

[PhilipM]

So whilst I agree that the existence of GSM/GPS modules means that is no real technical challenge to launch, we shouldn't make it even more attractive to launch without knowledge by providing newcomers with pre-built pre-coded radio trackers.  The lack of such a device isn't a 100% deterrent but it's all we've got.

Dave

The sentiment seems pretty unanimous. I'll stand this tracker project down.

Good luck with today's launches. =)

[Ed Moore]

And even then, the wiki has code on how to connect a gps to an
arduino, and an ntx2 (with rtty generation) to an arduino. This
already makes it a bit too easy imo, as you then get a class of people
who want to copy and paste the two chunks of code into an arduino
window then randomly change lines and variables (with 150
oh-god-you-just-dont-understand-do-you questions into the irc channel
between each edit, arrogantly assuming that other channel users have
the time and patience to answer and that they need not do independent
thinking themselves*) until it sort of works, buggily. That's actually
a worse situation, I think, than explaining to people how rtty works,
what a timer on a microcontroller is, and getting them to code it up
for themselves. At least with the latter method you gain an
understanding of what you're doing, rather than the former
'stochastic' method which is little better than pissing into the wind.

* I must emphasise that this is really, really pissing off a lot of
people who in principle, and historically, are very happy to help out
newbies, but don't have the time to help out the people new to the
hobby who've read the wiki before asking a question (who are always
very very welcome and very gladly received, who were a much larger
majority of new people only a couple of years ago), because their time
is being sucked up by people who need spoon feeding every. single.
step. of the way, and who don't listen to the answers to the question
they keep repeatedly asking. When someone like you, Philip, comes
along it's greeted almost like the 2nd coming of the Messiah. You've
actually read the wiki! You present a reasoned argument (with
numbers!) for a design decision! When you ask a question about a way
of doing something, you have first listed a bunch of different options
and their respective merits! Gloria in excelsis Deo!

I think, if you want people to do stuff in a ukhasophile way, you just
have to keep ukhas as shiny as possible so people actively want to tie
in to the existing network. We have the predictor and the distributed
listener, we have lots of cool high profile flights every now and then
(in the last month, Dave's Raspberry Pi launch which was targeted, and
successfully hit, squarely between the eyes of the hacker-hipster
zeitgeist, steve's olympic rings in space) so as long as the grass
looks greener with us than going-it-alone, I think we'll be in good
shape. All the tools we have now, that people like, like the predictor
and the d-listener, have been made to scratch our own itch, as
existing experimenters, rather than to attract new people, and as long
as we continue to keep doing interesting new high-altitude things,
we'll hopefully keep on attracting good new people such as yourself.
Deliberately expending energy towards the superficially altruistic
goal of 'making it easier' might be a bit of a trojan horse. It's not
actually difficult now anyway, there's just a bit to learn which is,
in and of itself, very rewarding anyway.

Also, as Dave said we cannot stop people putting a gsm tracker in a
box and flying without a notam. That happened a few months ago and the
guy sent an email to the list saying something like 'you can keep your
flijidigi-ardui-bhaji-rtty-titty nonsense you just need an ebay gsm
tracker and a box and a degree from t'university-er-life,...' etc etc.
He hadn't got a notam for his flight. We can be as explicit and clear,
even preachy, as we want but it won't stop people doing stupid things.
Far better to just 'be awesome' (if you'll excuse the
silicon-valley-esque hubris) such that other people want to join us,
than to actively chase people down for not doing it our way, which I
think is a fool's errand.

That's the remainder of the roast lunch wine polished off. Thanks for reading.

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[stea...@gmail.com]

It's not all you've got.  This is exactly why we need the national/international balloon safety leagues, instead of retarding the progress of amateur science.  

Simply require proof of membership and operator certification before purchase of highly useful technologies like cutdowns and trackers.  Also you could require that for use of league approved launch sites, and for use of the predictor. 

Thanks,

Dan

Sent from my iPhone

[Ed Moore]

Yeah and why don't we call it 'Identity To Aquire Required' or 'ITAR'
for short.

[James Coxon]

" The sentiment seems pretty unanimous. I'll stand this tracker project down. "

I hope you'll still do your own tracker though! No reason not to
publish the design on the wiki also lots of peoples flight code is on
github for all to browse, I've certainly seen my code popping up on a
number of peoples payloads.

James
M6JCX

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[go.ver...@googlemail.com]

Let's cross compare this with the other thread about insurance.

What is the risk of a pico payload, landing on somebody's car perhaps? I would contend this is virtually the same as somebody letting go of a toy helium balloon. What is really the difference between a stray released toy balloon landing on a road and a pico hab flight which is a toy balloon plus say 70g? Virtually none, I'd say. I'd contend that very few accidents have ever been caused by stray released toy balloons, and if there have been any then they'll be in the archives and an insurer could grow a pair and give us a proper actuarial risk and quote accordingly. The risk can't be very high or toy balloons would have been banned by now?

So, yes, why not sell a really small pico tracker ready made? But throw in ukhas membership and insurance and a bunch of t&cs in the purchase price. It would be a charming way to boost interest, flight rates and participation IF pico=stray released toy balloon holds water.

For bigger balloons, more expertise is needed and people would be foolish not to learn politely from the expertise of others. They would also really benefit if ukhas could offer insurance.

It would obviously be very silly to fly without taking advantage of the 434Mhz network but that should not detract from people who want to try unusual things like non-Arduino microcontrollers, 868Mhz, SPOT, ADS-B, satellite modems etc (some of which have been my suggestions I admit). All of these have niches (long duration flights, high bit rates etc) but are more expensive, so again people could be quietly reminded that adding/borrowing/buying(?) a 434Mhz transmitter as well would let them have a better chance of getting their equipment *back* and would also be more fun all round.

Someone mentioned the "nightmare scenario" of a balloon landing in a military base. Already happened. As I recall, the military held an enquiry and concluded that their protected airspace was being violated by Met Office balloons all the time so any concern was moot. This is just the sort of example as to why actually HAB is safe and safe in *historical* terms, which is why we should eventually be able to ferret out an insurer and get a decent quote, particularly ukhas-wide. That would be the biggest possible advantage and draw of being a member.

Ol

------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Moore <eddy...@gmail.com>
Sender: uk...@googlegroups.com
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 15:55:11
To: <uk...@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: uk...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [UKHAS] Re: Scout Sunday

[Dave]

 

----- Original Message -----

>On the other hand, is anyone interested in my new book* ....  http://i.imgur.com/OWAVg.png ?

>:-)

>Dave

>* No, not really!

 

Joking aside, the 'Idiots guides too..." books are usually written by people who know all the pros and cons and set out the issues and legalities of various actions for the people who might have become interested in a particular subject area, so maybe it would actually be a good idea to produce one?

 

Dave (Morseman - G0DJA)

[Ed Moore]

I think the wiki is functionally that, although there are valid
complaints about the organisation of it (i.e. there's not a nice
linear way to absorb it).

[Costyn van Dongen]

Hi Oliver,

On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 7:02 PM, <go.ver...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> So, yes, why not sell a really small pico tracker ready made? But throw in ukhas membership and insurance and a bunch of t&cs in the purchase price. It would be a charming way to boost interest, flight rates and participation IF pico=stray released toy balloon holds water.

The only problem I can see with this is that aforementioned newbies
who don't really want to learn anything will buy a small pico tracker
and put it in a large payload with camera and other gear, defeating
the purpose of a pico tracker.

Cheers,

Costyn

[Dave]

----- Original Message -----


>The only problem I can see with this is that aforementioned newbies
>who don't really want to learn anything will buy a small pico tracker
>and put it in a large payload with camera and other gear, defeating
>the purpose of a pico tracker.

Why is this a problem?

Or, do you want to set rules about who is, and who is not, a newbie?

If so, I probably don't qualify.

Thank you for excluding me from the pico tracker system, I appreciate your
help.

Dave (Morseman - G0DJA)

[Ed Moore]

I think the implication simply that selling a pico tracker
specifically on the basis that pico balloons are not dangerous is a
flawed premise, because you can just put it in a big payload anyway.
i.e. it doesn't solve the problem that it's trying to. However given
you seem so aggrieved, maybe I'm missing something.

Anyway, personally I think all this talk of doing things specifically
'for newbies' serves no purpose. They can learn how we do it if they
want, and we can make a reasoned case for doing it our way too. Then
it's up to them.

>
> Dave (Morseman - G0DJA)

[PhilipM]

I have to say, I enjoyed watching the final moments of the tracker yesterday. Watching Dave's chase car home in on Buzz made tracking and recovery look very efficient (and easy!). 

I was also very surprised a the large number of trackers and range of some of the interceptions. 10mW goes a long way when used properly! Is there a way to see the data from the receiver perspective (how many messages they received and at what height and range)? 

How did the on board data collection go? I'd love to read and see more about the payloads.

Sorry I can't make the conference, I am currently based in Singapore. I am moving back to the UK in October and hope to have a MI3/6 callsign (or maybe a 2I one) by year end. Perhaps with ITAR to follow in 2013. ;)

[Costyn van Dongen]

Hi Dave,

With 'newbie who doesn't want to learn' I meant 'Joe Bloggs' as
mentioned earlier in the thread by Mark Jessop.

I too am a newbie and have gratefully copied other people's code to
use on my own tracker, but am eager to learn about all aspects of it,
software and hardware and have already learned a lot, and done my
homework on the legal aspects (balloons of less than 4kg payload and 4
cubic meters of He are allowed here in the Netherlands).

Cheers

Costyn

On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Dave <da...@g0dja.co.uk> wrote:
> Why is this a problem?
>
> Or, do you want to set rules about who is, and who is not, a newbie?
>
> If so, I probably don't qualify.
>
> Thank you for excluding me from the pico tracker system, I appreciate your
> help.
>
> Dave (Morseman - G0DJA)

[Adam Greig]

Hi Philip,

If you got to http://habitat.habhub.org/stats/ and click 'Flights
List' then '5th Scout launch 1' you can see the breakdown by receiver,
though not their range. That system is still a very quick
demonstration -- in theory we do have all the information to calculate
range and present much cooler visualisations and graphics, but at the
moment we're mostly working on backend stuff. Once that's all out of
the way except a range of fun looking stats :D

Adam

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[David Akerman]

Thanks to all who helped out on Sunday - we had plenty of receivers.  The flight went well, and the video feed I understand was good too aside from when the camera decided to focus on the raindrops on my windscreen!  Also we lost 3G coverage right at the end, so although I was still on IRC via 2G, the video software refused to connect.

Having a bunch of scouts around was, erm, "interesting".  The older ones were great, getting involved and asking good questions, but the younger ones had an attention span measured in seconds.  Then they discovered the live video stream, as some of you noticed ....

I've written it all up in a blog post - see http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=613.  There are links from there to the videos and photos of the launch and recovery.  I don't have the GoPro video yet but I'll post here again when I do.

Dave

On 25 July 2012 12:23, David Akerman <calt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hoping to do a launch on Sunday, from a site about midway between Nottingham and Mansfield.  Nothing special - video plus 2 telemetry payloads, probably to around 30km.

Expecting to launch around 1pm or so.

Would appreciate a few listeners please, especially any "up north" :)

First tracker is "5thSCOUT" (which you'll find right at the top of the list in dl-fldigi).  This is actually Upu's pAVA tracker that I rescued from the triffids a couple of weeks ago.  Telemetry unchanged aside from the payload ID.

Second tracker is "BUZZ", exactly the same as I flew last time.

Assuming a decent 3G connection I'll be running a live video stream from the launch site and hopefully the chase and recovery too.

QUICK REF

=========

5thSCOUT:  434.200Mhz 7N2 with a 500Hz shift 50 baud RTTY

BUZZ:  434.300Mhz 7N2 500Hz shift @ 50 baud RTTY

Video:  http://www.batc.tv/streams/m0upu

Dave

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