World's largest Personal Rapid Transit (PRT) system announced for India

[Jerry Schneider]

Pretty significant application if all goes well --

http://www.ultraglobalprt.com/worlds-largest-urban-prt-system-announced/

[Michael Weidler]

3.3km = almost 2 miles. I guess you have to start somewhere. I suspect this is going to a duplicate of the Heathrow project - essentially 3 stops.

---

From: Jerry Schneider <j...@peak.org>
To: j...@peak.org
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:56 PM
Subject: [t-i] World's largest Personal Rapid Transit (PRT) system announced for India

Pretty significant application if all goes well --

http://www.ultraglobalprt.com/worlds-largest-urban-prt-system-announced/

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "transport-innovators" group.
To post to this group, send email to transport-...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innovators+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/transport-innovators?hl=en.

[Steve Raney]

Here is a PRT Industry status PPT from January, with a few more
details on the Ultra Amritsar system, as well as bit more detail on
Masdar and Suncheon.

Highlights for Amritsar:
* 4.8mi guideway, 7 stations, 240 vehicles
* Up to 100,000 passenger trips per day
* 100% private finance
* Late 2014 passenger service.
As usual, my public statements always end up being wrong in some way
or another, so don't believe what I write.

PRT Industry Status. 8MB PPT: http://www.ultraprt.net/cms/TRB_Raney_AutomatedMobility.ppt

[Dennis Manning]

Michael:

You are way off base. Amritsar is considerably different than Heathrow. I
wish Amritsar every success.

Thanks Steve. The more clearly we understand what the Amritsar project is
all about the better off we will be.

Dennis

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Steve Raney" <steve...@cities21.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 9:41 PM
To: "transport-innovators" <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [t-i] Re: World's largest Personal Rapid Transit (PRT) system
announced for India

> Here is a PRT Industry status PPT from January, with a few more

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "transport-innovators" group.
> To post to this group, send email to
> transport-...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> transport-innova...@googlegroups.com.

[Jerry Roane]

Steve

That is great to hear that you can move 100,000 passengers with 240 vehicles a day.  That means each car can do 417 (passenger???) trips in a day on a 4.8 mile long piece of guideway.  I assume if you had half as many cars (120) it could carry 50,000 passengers in a day as an example???  With 240 cars on the roadway and some pre-decided following distance I assume not all cars are on the path at the same time.  240 cars at $10,000 each would be $2.4 million in cars so not much compared to the transit world for moving 100,000/day or 36.5 million/year.    

This may be the first PRT system that demonstrates the value of PRT if the stations are in a network configuration and not just in a line.  Do you have a layout of these 4.8 miles of guideway that you would be willing to share?  

Jerry 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "transport-innovators" group.
To post to this group, send email to transport-...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innova...@googlegroups.com.

[Dennis Manning]

Steve:

Thanks for the ppt. It's a good summary of the current status of PRT.

Dennis

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Steve Raney" <steve...@cities21.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 9:41 PM
To: "transport-innovators" <transport-...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [t-i] Re: World's largest Personal Rapid Transit (PRT) system
announced for India

> Here is a PRT Industry status PPT from January, with a few more

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "transport-innovators" group.
> To post to this group, send email to
> transport-...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> transport-innova...@googlegroups.com.

[Jack Slade]

I did not do the math when I posted a previous article re:occupancy.  Since the figure is probably total movements,  then I guess that would be 50,000 return trips.  The system will operate 20 hours per day,  so each car will only be moving 42 passengers per hour,  averaged.  This does not seem to be an unreasonable expectation,  since the main purpose is to serve a Holy Site.  It is certainly not the same as trying to fill a ballpark in 1 hour.

 

Since most passengers have the same destination,  even though going to different stations,  it will operate more like Morgantown,  and that does OK with only 18 cars.

 

Jack Slade 

[Gary Penn]

On Mar 19, 2012, at 11:52 AM, Jerry Roane wrote:

This may be the first PRT system that demonstrates the value of PRT if the stations are in a network configuration and not just in a line.  Do you have a layout of these 4.8 miles of guideway that you would be willing to share?  

Jerry 

You are looking for more than this?

Here is a Google Map of approximately the same area:

http://maps.google.com/maps?client=safari&rls=en&oe=UTF-8&q=amritsar&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x391964aa569e7355:0xeea2605bee84ef7d,Amritsar,+Punjab,+India&gl=us&ei=zW1nT76oMbKCsgLth8i3Dw&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CDUQ8gEwAA

The Golden Temple is labeled "Darbar Sahib Sarovar".

Gary Penn

Austin, Texas

[Dennis Manning]

Doesn't slide 13 show the layout?

[Jerry Schneider]

At 11:10 AM 3/19/2012, you wrote:
>Doesn't slide 13 show the layout?
>

>From: <mailto:jerry...@gmail.com>Jerry Roane
>Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 9:52 AM
>To:
><mailto:transport-...@googlegroups.com>transport-...@googlegroups.com
>
>Subject: Re: [t-i] Re: World's largest Personal Rapid Transit (PRT)
>system announced for India
>
>Steve
>
>That is great to hear that you can move 100,000 passengers with 240
>vehicles a day. That means each car can do 417 (passenger???) trips
>in a day on a 4.8 mile long piece of guideway. I assume if you had
>half as many cars (120) it could carry 50,000 passengers in a day as
>an example??? With 240 cars on the roadway and some pre-decided
>following distance I assume not all cars are on the path at the same
>time. 240 cars at $10,000 each would be $2.4 million in cars so not
>much compared to the transit world for moving 100,000/day or 36.5
>million/year.

If the vehicles hold 6 passengers and the occupancy is 6, then
100,000 passengers distributed among 240 vehicles would make 69 trips
per day (100,000/240*6 = 69 - assuming no empty vehicle
redistribution needs. It the demand is distributed equally over 18
hours per day, then each vehicle would need to make 69/18 = about 4
trips per hour. That's 1 trip every 15 minutes. Do you find that to
be unreasonable, assuming a 99.99% availability (up time)? Do you
really believe that the people designing this system are incompetent?

>
>
>This may be the first PRT system that demonstrates the value of PRT
>if the stations are in a network configuration and not just in a
>line. Do you have a layout of these 4.8 miles of guideway that you
>would be willing to share?
>
>Jerry
>
>On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Steve Raney
><<mailto:steve...@cities21.org>steve...@cities21.org> wrote:
>Here is a PRT Industry status PPT from January, with a few more
>details on the Ultra Amritsar system, as well as bit more detail on
>Masdar and Suncheon.
>
>Highlights for Amritsar:
>* 4.8mi guideway, 7 stations, 240 vehicles
>* Up to 100,000 passenger trips per day
>* 100% private finance
>* Late 2014 passenger service.
>As usual, my public statements always end up being wrong in some way
>or another, so don't believe what I write.
>
>PRT Industry Status. 8MB PPT:

><http://www.ultraprt.net/cms/TRB_Raney_AutomatedMobility.ppt>http://www.ultraprt.net/cms/TRB_Raney_AutomatedMobility.ppt

>
>On Mar 18, 6:59 am, Michael Weidler

><<mailto:pstran...@yahoo.com>pstran...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > 3.3km = almost 2 miles. I guess you have to start somewhere. I
> suspect this is going to a duplicate of the Heathrow project -
> essentially 3 stops.
> >
>
>--
>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>Groups "transport-innovators" group.
>To post to this group, send email to

><mailto:transport-...@googlegroups.com>transport-...@googlegroups.com.

>To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

><mailto:transport-innovators%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>transport-innova...@googlegroups.com.

>For more options, visit this group at

><http://groups.google.com/group/transport-innovators?hl=en>http://groups.google.com/group/transport-innovators?hl=en.

>
>
>--
>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>Groups "transport-innovators" group.
>To post to this group, send email to transport-...@googlegroups.com.
>To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>transport-innova...@googlegroups.com.
>For more options, visit this group at
>http://groups.google.com/group/transport-innovators?hl=en.
>
>--
>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>Groups "transport-innovators" group.
>To post to this group, send email to transport-...@googlegroups.com.
>To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>transport-innova...@googlegroups.com.
>For more options, visit this group at
>http://groups.google.com/group/transport-innovators?hl=en.

- Jerry Schneider -
Innovative Transportation Technologies
http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans

[Jerry Roane]

Gary

This is good.  Thanks.  This is a great starter set with 7 stations.  The next bump up would give alternate routes to show how traffic could be routed during a trouble spot on a particular section of guideway.  First automatic guideway needs to be shown then its reliability under all conditions would be the next thing to show.  It is jumping the gun a little to expect the first systems to be fault tolerant for guideway issues.  

Those early to the table will get to cherry-pick the best locations and make the most money.  This heavily traveled route should do well.  Induced travel is bad for highways but great if you are the operating company.  I would imagine that this would induce travel between these stations.  

Jerry Roane 

[Jerry Roane]

Jerry

You took that all wrong.  I was agreeing.  The numbers seem reasonable and they are competent of course.  It was a response to an earlier post by someone who talked like my project could not work because the cars provided were insufficient.  The numbers are the numbers and they work out just fine.  I was trying to gain credibility by using these numbers are a known good reference.

I apologize for not make my point very well.  

Jerry Roane 

On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Jerry Schneider <j...@peak.org> wrote:

At 11:10 AM 3/19/2012, you wrote:

Doesn't slide 13 show the layout?

From: <mailto:jerry...@gmail.com>Jerry Roane

Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 9:52 AM

To: <mailto:transport-innovators@googlegroups.com>transport-innov...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [t-i] Re: World's largest Personal Rapid Transit (PRT) system announced for India

Steve

That is great to hear that you can move 100,000 passengers with 240 vehicles a day.  That means each car can do 417 (passenger???) trips in a day on a 4.8 mile long piece of guideway.  I assume if you had half as many cars (120) it could carry 50,000 passengers in a day as an example???  With 240 cars on the roadway and some pre-decided following distance I assume not all cars are on the path at the same time.  240 cars at $10,000 each would be $2.4 million in cars so not much compared to the transit world for moving 100,000/day or 36.5 million/year.

If the vehicles hold 6 passengers and the occupancy is 6, then 100,000 passengers distributed among 240 vehicles would make 69 trips per day (100,000/240*6 = 69 - assuming no empty  vehicle redistribution needs. It the demand is distributed equally over 18 hours per day, then each vehicle would need to make 69/18 = about 4 trips per hour. That's 1 trip every 15 minutes. Do you find that to be unreasonable, assuming a 99.99% availability (up time)? Do you really believe that the people designing this system are incompetent?

This may be the first PRT system that demonstrates the value of PRT if the stations are in a network configuration and not just in a line.  Do you have a layout of these 4.8 miles of guideway that you would be willing to share?

Jerry

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Steve Raney <<mailto:steve_raney@cities21.org>steve...@cities21.org> wrote:
Here is a PRT Industry status PPT from January, with a few more
details on the Ultra Amritsar system, as well as bit more detail on
Masdar and Suncheon.

Highlights for Amritsar:
* 4.8mi guideway, 7 stations, 240 vehicles
* Up to 100,000 passenger trips per day
* 100% private finance
* Late 2014 passenger service.
As usual, my public statements always end up being wrong in some way
or another, so don't believe what I write.

PRT Industry Status. 8MB PPT: <http://www.ultraprt.net/cms/TRB_Raney_AutomatedMobility.ppt>http://www.ultraprt.net/cms/TRB_Raney_AutomatedMobility.ppt

On Mar 18, 6:59 am, Michael Weidler <<mailto:pstran...@yahoo.com>pstran...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 3.3km = almost 2 miles. I guess you have to start somewhere. I suspect this is going to a duplicate of the Heathrow project - essentially 3 stops.
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "transport-innovators" group.

To post to this group, send email to <mailto:transport-innovators@googlegroups.com>transport-innov...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to <mailto:transport-innovators%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>transport-innovators+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at <http://groups.google.com/group/transport-innovators?hl=en>http://groups.google.com/group/transport-innovators?hl=en.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "transport-innovators" group.

To post to this group, send email to transport-innovators@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innovators+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/transport-innovators?hl=en.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "transport-innovators" group.

To post to this group, send email to transport-innovators@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innovators+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/transport-innovators?hl=en.

- Jerry Schneider -
   Innovative Transportation Technologies
     http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "transport-innovators" group.

To post to this group, send email to transport-innovators@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innovators+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

[Nathan Koren]

Good reverse engineering job -- you're within 10% of the actual numbers!

Yes, for most people the system will be relatively Morgantown-like, with shared vehicles. Most inbound passengers are headed towards the Golden Temple, and most outbound passengers are headed towards either the rail or bus stations, so ridesharing is not as difficult to coordinate as in other places. You'll always have the option to purchase a traditional PRT-like private vehicle ride -- rather than just a seat on a shared vehicle -- but that comes at a premium. This was driven by economic considerations. In order to make the system pay for itself, each vehicle-hour needed to generate quite a lot of revenue. The only way to do this is with relatively high occupancies (and everybody paying for their own seat) or relatively high fares (for a vehicle of your own). The best solution, in this case, is "all of the above".

And yes, it's a fairly solid stream of people in and out of the temple -- a demand pattern very unlike a stadium. Although the rail station can experience quite large and rapid fluxes, and has been designed accordingly (with more berths and vehicle queuing points for a given capacity requirement).

In reality, the network is quite sparse, with 3 stations absorbing almost 95% of the demand. So it will do a bit to prove the benefits of nonlinear mesh networks; more significantly, however, it will demolish the argument that PRT is inherently a low-capacity system. Once Amritsar is fully operational, nobody will ever be able to say that again.

Cheers,

Nathan

Jerry 

To post to this group, send email to transport-innovators@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innovators+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/transport-innovators?hl=en.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "transport-innovators" group.

To post to this group, send email to transport-innovators@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innovators+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

[Dennis Manning]

Nathan:

 

I sure hope you are right about Amritsar putting "capacity" challenge to bed. It would mean PRT/GRT can compete in what is essentially a corridor solution. Does it show that PRT can be a successful large "network"?

 

Dennis

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/transport-innovators/-/f3BC8_YkhWgJ.
To post to this group, send email to transport-...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innova...@googlegroups.com.

[Nathan Koren]

Hi Dennis,

Well, keep in mind that a corridor is often about more than just topology -- frequently (such as when they cater to business commuters) they have very high-flux demand profiles as well. With high-flux demand profiles, GRT or mass transit systems (capable of absorbing "crush capacity" with standing passengers) are often more appropriate than PRT. The case for PRT at Amritsar is helped by the fact that demand starts ramping up at 6 AM, hits a plateau by 9 AM, and then maintains fairly continuous bidirectional demand for the next 12 hours. That's an excellent demand profile for a PRT system.

The determining factor at Amritsar, however, was physical fit. Amritsar is essentially a medieval walled city; nothing other than the least obtrusive infrastructure could possibly fit within it -- at least not without causing massive damage and disruption to the fabric of the city. It's interesting to note that simple physical fit was a key factor in the selection of PRT for Heathrow as well.

Cheers,

Nathan

[Jack Slade]

Good point:  If only the city planners were smart enough to recognize that ease of construction and fitting into existing places is at least as important as all the other factors they spout about when recommending rail and subway systems.  For Example: 

Streetcar or LRT along a major street essentially closes that street for at least 2 years while construction takes place.  Subways take even longer....1/4 mile sections are dug up to a depth of about 30 feet alternately,  and when that section is covered another is opened.  This effectively closes that street for about 5 years as a through street,  even though sections remain useable.  Most businesses lose money for that whole period.

 

The other big item right now (maybe the biggest of all)  is how to pay for it. $20 million per mile is just so much easier to do, and this system at Armistar should prove profitability, which may wake up all these planners who have forgotten that transportation used to be a profitable business. 

 

Jack Slade

From: Nathan Koren <nko...@gmail.com>
To: transport-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 3:43:35 PM
Subject: Re: [t-i] Re: World's largest Personal Rapid Transit (PRT) system announced for India

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "transport-innovators" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ msg/transport-innovators/-/ f3BC8_YkhWgJ.

To post to this group, send email to transport-innovators@ googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innovators+ unsub...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/ group/transport-innovators?hl= en.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "transport-innovators" group.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/transport-innovators/-/JNrOHBVew7YJ.
To post to this group, send email to transport-...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innova...@googlegroups.com.

[Michael Weidler]

I wish them the best too. However, from my personal point of view, this project is way too small to get excited about. Yes, it is a step up from Heathrow - 200 vs 18 cars, but gee whiz, a whole 2-5 miles of track depending on whose report is correct. As I said, guess you have to start somewhere.

---

From: Dennis Manning <john.m...@comcast.net>
To: transport-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 12:55 AM
Subject: Re: [t-i] Re: World's largest Personal Rapid Transit (PRT) system announced for India

> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innovators+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/transport-innovators?hl=en.
>
>

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "transport-innovators" group.
To post to this group, send email to transport-...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innovators+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

[Dennis Manning]

I think Amritsar has the potential to alleviate PRT capacity criticisms. Something Heathrow is not doing at least so far.

 

Dennis

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innova...@googlegroups.com.

[kirston henderson]

on 4/11/12 7:54 AM, Dennis Manning at john.m...@comcast.net wrote:

I think Amritsar has the potential to alleviate PRT capacity criticisms. Something Heathrow is not doing at least so far.

   What sort o system is Amistar planning to use?

Kirston

[Dennis Manning]

An ULTra system. It's a modified version of the Heathrow version.

 

For some comparisons see:

 

http://www.ultraprt.net/cms/TRB_Raney_AutomatedMobility.ppt

From: kirston henderson

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 7:23 AM

To: transport-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [t-i] Re: World's largest Personal Rapid Transit (PRT) system announced for India

[Michael Weidler]

I'm not so sure about that. From the little I've read about it (and what's been said on this group), it seems to get a lot of its capacity from operating as GRT (full pods) rather than as individual transport. While that may be a valid operating scenario for this installation, it's not going help prove that "wide area" PRT, which expects occupancy of 1.3 passengers, is going to work.

---

From: Dennis Manning <john.m...@comcast.net>
To: transport-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 7:54 AM

[Dennis Manning]

Okay. Have it your way. Amritsar will prove nothing.