Survey

[MRE]

Hey all..
In the past, THS has been pretty relaxed and comfortable about not collecting too much information about members. We generally only collect full name and an Email address.

Moving forward, the Board of Directors acknowledges that we need to collect SOME information and keep it on file.
The question is: WHAT information, and HOW MUCH?

So, I would like to throw out there to our members and nonmembers alike, a little survey:

Survey
Would you feel comfortable if THS asked for the following information? Why or why not? Feel free to single out single items:
* A secondary email
* A telephone number
* Full registered address
* Photo copy of Foreign registration card or passport (Visa page or primary information page)
* Photo copy of medical insurance card

Regarding Foreign registration/Visa and Medical insurance:
* If you are not comfortable providing photocopies, how would you feel about providing them for a VISUAL ONLY inspection by the membership officer?

[Nava Whiteford]

> *Would you feel comfortable if THS asked for the following information? Why

> or why not? Feel free to single out single items:
> * A secondary email

yes

> * A telephone number

maybe

> * Full registered address

no

> * Photo copy of Foreign registration card or passport (Visa page or primary information page)

no

> * Photo copy of medical insurance card

no

> Regarding Foreign registration/Visa and Medical insurance:
> * If you are not comfortable providing photocopies, how would you feel
> about providing them for a VISUAL ONLY inspection by the membership officer?

no

I don't feel the need to explain why it would make me uncomfortable. But I've refused to give
some of this information to previous employers in the past when given no legal justification
beyond "someone might ask for it sometime".

[James Andrews]

While I am not a member now I am hoping that once I have solid funds
to change that, so I guess for me the question is why is this
information needed.

Name, Email addresses, home address don't bother me so much. Passport
information, drivers license, or forgeiner registration information
bother's me a lot. It's kind of like back in the states where people
ask for your SSI number. I only give that to the IRS and my employer,
because I need them to have it to pay my taxes.

I can see having a copy of my insurance card on file as being a good
thing. If I become seriously hurt while doing something at the hacker
space. Someone has access to my information to provide. Same with my
home phone for an emergency contact.

My passport or my foreigner registration I don't see why the HS would
need such information. By law am I required to be legally in Japan to
be a member? Can't I be a supporting member from the US? Does
Japanese law require you to collect that information?

Just my ¥2
James

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[Furkan Mustafa]

Survey
Would you feel comfortable if THS asked for the following information? Why or why not? Feel free to single out single items:
* A secondary email

no (not necessary) 

* A telephone number

ok i think 

* Full registered address

no, maybe only city-name

* Photo copy of Foreign registration card or passport (Visa page or primary information page)

no 

* Photo copy of medical insurance card

no 

Regarding Foreign registration/Visa and Medical insurance:
* If you are not comfortable providing photocopies, how would you feel about providing them for a VISUAL ONLY inspection by the membership officer?

i think this should be ok too.

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[Jud Taylor]

Secondary email and phone, the rest, absolutely not.

[Torsten Wagner]

* A secondary email
Yup,
* A telephone number
Yup,
* Full registered address
If secured in a way from fraud (e.g. a single time printed version
(application form) only accessible by the members officer). I am also
ok to give away city, and local area name to make it possible for
other to contact me if they plan to visit or ask about my place...
Nothing I would like to read on a giant black board.

* Photo copy of Foreign registration card or passport (Visa page or
primary information page)

No, however, I would be ok with given my nationality and my language
skills, since this might help to help others in some way. Plus THS
could contact my embassy if shit really hits the fan.

* Photo copy of medical insurance card

No, but an solid emergency contact (wife, hubby, boss, close friend,
parents, etc.) would be ok

Regarding Foreign registration/Visa and Medical insurance:
* If you are not comfortable providing photocopies, how would you feel
about providing them for a VISUAL ONLY inspection by the membership
officer?

I think its ok if there is a solid reason to see them. E.g., to proof
the correctness of details on an application form. The question is
does THS really need that?

My two cents....

Totti

[Torsten Wagner]

On the other hand,

taken the rather small amount of members, does not everyone has at
least some rough idea to whom he/she is talking?
Is there really the need to collect more data if everyone already
stored addresses and phone-numbers of several members?

Just wondering

Totti

[James Andrews]

While that may be the case now, if the group is trying to grow the
space, it is best to be prepared for future growth instead of rolling
with it when it happens.

James

[Taylan Ayken]

Well, I was one of the officers who suggested more info collecting. So I will write down my answers with storage and usage possibilities.

* A secondary email

Not really needed. Can't see any use.
* A telephone number

OK if it is stored on a form and locked in the safe at THS. Only usage should be cases like "Hey asshole, you dumped all your old PCs here and we don't like it. So we are giving you 2 days to come clean it up or somebody gonna got a hurt real bad!" No for other storage options and uses.
* Full registered address

Again OK if it is stored on a form and locked in the safe at THS. Only usage should be cases like me being a giant asshole not picking up my old PCs after being warned so you come and dump them in front of my door (or better yet send it with COD). Another possibility is that we are sharing the space with others and we will get keys, they can be more comfortable if we have this info on hand.

* Photo copy of Foreign registration card or passport (Visa page or primary information page)

Nope, under no storage conditions and no usage conditions. THS does not need this.

* Photo copy of medical insurance card

If I am using the mill, maybe. Along with some emergency contact info. But the problem is this info must be stored somewhere with easy access, so no putting it in safe. But now looking at it I see that it has my birthdate and address, so if it is not in safe, I'm not comfortable. So no!

Regarding Foreign registration/Visa and Medical insurance:
* If you are not comfortable providing photocopies, how would you feel about providing them for a VISUAL ONLY inspection by the membership officer?

Foreign card is OK for address verification. And membership officer (me) can call to confirm the number is correct and not for Dominos pizza. Medical insurance is also OK, so that it is known that I am insured and what type of insurance I have. Maybe a description of where I keep my insurance card is good too for possible emergencies (in the wallet, in the bag inside a credit card case, taped to my belly...)

---

From: MRE <epre...@gmail.com>
To: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 6:26 PM
Subject: [THS:20431] Survey

[Luis Felipe RM]

On 10/01/2012 02:26 AM, MRE wrote:
> *Survey
> *Would you feel comfortable if THS asked for the following information? Why

> or why not? Feel free to single out single items:
> * A secondary email

yup.

> * A telephone number

yup.

> * Full registered address

OK.

> * Photo copy of Foreign registration card or passport (Visa page or primary
> information page)

no.

> * Photo copy of medical insurance card

no.

> Regarding Foreign registration/Visa and Medical insurance:
> * If you are not comfortable providing photocopies, how would you feel
> about providing them for a VISUAL ONLY inspection by the membership officer?
>

yes.

[Usmar A Padow]

Everything is ok for me except for the copy of medical insurance. Why do you need that.  I have a little information I don't want to disclose on it.

2012/10/01 18:26、MRE <epre...@gmail.com> のメッセージ:

--

[Usmar A Padow]

2012/10/01 19:06、James Andrews <then...@gmail.com> のメッセージ:

> While I am not a member now I am hoping that once I have solid funds
> to change that, so I guess for me the question is why is this
> information needed.
>
> Name, Email addresses, home address don't bother me so much. Passport
> information, drivers license, or forgeiner registration information
> bother's me a lot. It's kind of like back in the states where people
> ask for your SSI number. I only give that to the IRS and my employer,
> because I need them to have it to pay my taxes.
>
> I can see having a copy of my insurance card on file as being a good
> thing. If I become seriously hurt while doing something at the hacker
> space. Someone has access to my information to provide. Same with my
> home phone for an emergency contact.

I have info on my insurance card I don't feel comfortable disclosing.

[Romedius Weiss]

Hi!

I would give my telephone number and secondary email address to most of the people, if asked.

For THS: I would give my Full registered address, telephone number and secondary address, if THS would become a registered NGO and if it is demanded by law.
In this case I would prove the registration address to the membership officer with the registration card once.
Photo copys would be a  no go.

Cheers, Romedius

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[Mikele]

+1 what's below.

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 6:26 PM, MRE <epre...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Would you feel comfortable if THS asked for the following information? Why
> or why not? Feel free to single out single items:

> * A secondary email

It will be hard for me to choose secondary e-mail address, I have too
many, but I don't see a reason to collect this info.

> * A telephone number
ok, I'd add mobile.

> * Full registered address
not sure that is needed, but no problem since I consider it public.

> * Photo copy of Foreign registration card or passport (Visa page or primary
> information page)
> * Photo copy of medical insurance card
>

NG, photo copies have been abused before (some guy registered a phone
on my name) for me. No use of this info anyway.

> Regarding Foreign registration/Visa and Medical insurance:
> * If you are not comfortable providing photocopies, how would you feel about
> providing them for a VISUAL ONLY inspection by the membership officer?
>

Yes, verification is OK, although it will be hard to do with passport.
I think for residents in Japan (95% of members?) gaijin card or the
new residence card should be presented.

Full name, and optional nickname (Akiba & MRE, you listening?)

I'll add a photo (and I'm opening a can of worms) in digital or analog
form, that may actually go to the web site for storing in the profile.
Actually, I'd rather have a poster on the wall with all current
members with photo and name (or nick).

For emergencies, I'd say optional info:
* emergency contact: Name (First, Family), preferred language (en/ja),
(mobile) phone, relationship
* citizenship (to call embassy if all fails)

Cheers,
Kalin.

[Torsten Wagner]

As for the problem of making otherwise closed details available on emergency,  one could think of these metal containers with a glass front which requires to break the glass.  Or any other way of sealed container which requires an emergency situation to justify to break it.

Totti

--

[Akiba]

I think in general, THS should be as anonymous as its members want to be. Info collection should be limited to what members want to give up. There hasn’t been much discussion on how the data would be used or why it’s needed, although Taylan did give some details. Since MRE brought this up, it’s obvious that there’s no nefarious plan to sell us all out to facebook or the feds, but any info THS wants should be optional and the owners should be able to completely control it. That said, there’s nothing I want to divulge to THS that can’t be found on my social media.

 

If prodded correctly, I would be willing to pose for compromising pictures, though. And by prodding, I mean…

 

Akiba

FreakLabs Open Source Wireless

http://www.freaklabs.org

---

[MRE]

It sounds like we are trending towards basic info (name, and at least one email OR telephone number) and some form of emergency contact.. info to be secured.
Sound right?

[MRE]

Brainstormed reasons for more or less info
More:
* Theft - ability to report fully to police. Would onlt matter if we had you on video
* Shared space. For peace of mind of the co-renters
* emergency. You are unconscious due to heart attack or mill mangling.

Less:
* theft - cant do much anyway, even with a metric tone of evidence. At least, not without spending lawyer cash.
* its accusatory of members.
* emergency: unless you are a crazy weirdo, everything needed is in your wallet anyway.

At our meeting we tentatively concluded that:
1: as unobtrusive as possible while still providing a minimum level of info necessary to conduct our business
2 - through a more deliberate vetting process, we will all have a good feel for people before becoming members. As it stands now, membership is affectively available on your first visit. We dont want the process to be complicated. Only that it not be instant.

[Torsten Wagner]

We are close to human cloning.
Thus, I would like to add my mother maiden name to the list. People
could ask me the "secret" question to make sure its me and not an evil
clone.

Totti

On 2 October 2012 11:04, MRE <epre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It sounds like we are trending towards basic info (name, and at least one email OR telephone number) and some form of emergency contact.. info to be secured.
> Sound right?
>

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[Nava Whiteford]

I've been thinking about shaving my head and having my ssh or gpg private key
tattooed on my scalp.

Let the hair grow back, and no-one will know. But when a clone does come along
and challenges you, you just shave your head and use your key to decrypt a message
or whatever. Foolproof.

Only problem is I'm rapidly going bald. Hmmm..

[Torsten Wagner]

More serious this time...
I guess an somehow official application form which might include
otherwise not stored details (e.g. Full Name, home (in Japan) address,
telephone, emergency contact, email) would create an easy to do burden
to a new member. This application form can also be handed with a set
of rules and regulations people agreed so far silently (the amount of
membership fees, cancellation rules, usage and access of the space,
reliabilities, freedoms, etc.). Having a page of rules and
regulations to agree too and needing to fill in a form and sign it,
avoids most potential membership faking and its something you do not
on day one.

I believe this is also the first step towards becoming an official NGO
since they are required to have such a list of written regulations
which in detail explain membership details and NGO purpose (not sure
in Japan but at least that is the case in Germany).

The forms could be stored in a way only accessible by the membership officer.

Just an idea

Totti

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[Torsten Wagner]

To too Mikele about UV-light-tattoo ink ;)

[Chris Shannon]

or program it on a rfid and insert it under your skin

[sean toczko]

No DNA swabs?

At least one blood sample, yes?

Although, seriously, maybe a list of allergies (& medication) and blood type would be helpful in an emergency. Along with next of kin info.

S

[Torsten Wagner]

The problem is, if I get my hands on a blood-sample of Akiba or MRE I
could clone them and then I would have hundred of MREs and hundred of
Akibas and I would let them clash together in epic battles just for
fun...

So blood samples might be out of discussion

Totti

[fakufaku]

This discussion keeps popping up. The way I see it, some people seems to think that because most organization, even loose ones, collect way too much information about their members.

Given the crowd attending THS, and the answers to this survey, it is pretty obvious that most members (and potential members alike) are *not* in favor of giving information. But let me just say why I'm personally not for it.

1) Argument from EVIL. What if information is used for evil purpose ? By members, or someone unrelated in case the data is lost or stolen. But I'd consider that fairly unlikely. Who is seriously interested in the address of a bunch of nerds ? Besides, people who can really bother you using this information (immigration, police, etc) already have it.

2) Argument from LAZINESS. And this is the main argument : Handling this information will come a lot of overhead. Someone has to collect it. It needs to be stored. Someone needs to pay attention it doesn't get lost (or people get angry). Etc. Given the lack of motivation members (me included) have shown for these tasks, I'd say it's obviously hopeless.

Now let's review the reasons we would like to collect and keep this information and why it doesn't stand to examination.

1) Officialness and status of THS. Counter argument : just because everybody does it, doesn't mean we have to or should do the same.

2) Security when doing heavy lifting at THS. Counter argument : seriously not so many people do dangerous things at the space. People who don't feel comfortable should keep their own information on them (pocket, wallet, purse, etc) when doing things they consider dangerous (or at all time, since life is fairly dangerous by itself).

To sum up, the only information really necessary is an email (or phone number if no email, but rare these days). The email is necessary because it could potentially be used to remind members to stay members by paying the membership.

Phone numbers are usually informally collected because people like to call each other and also they are useful to organize meet-ups and such. I don't think it is necessary to collect them officially.

[MRE]

Hmm.. advantage ME.
15 years of hand weapon combat experience. Bats, maces, axes, swords (of all types), daggers and battons.

Now if its a dance-off, my ass is pwnd.

[Torsten Wagner]

Well in that case I juggle with the numbers until it fits...  10 MRE against 100 Akibas or so... 
And beside of that we all know that all Asians master some fancy Kungfu Karate whatever stuff. So not sure about the advantage...

Totti

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[Torsten Wagner]

I want to emphases
If THS really plans to get a status as a NGO,  some of the stuff might be required if people like it or not.  Better to start now and do not risk that half of the members leave when it becomes a requirement. 

An application form is a one time thing with not much trouble on all sides. 

This form could include a minimum of mandatory fields and a set of optional fields...  Thus, it gives enough freedom to everyone to decide what one wants to share.
Totti

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[fakufaku]

I seriously doubt that collecting extensive information about all members is a requirement to become an NGO. Many NGOs don't have members in the first place. So probably a few people have to put their names as chair/secretary/whateveryoucallit. But I seriously doubt that includes everybody else.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong. In addition, if anything at all is required, it's better to wait until we know for sure what is (and what isn't, like astrological sign for example), before we crawl the facebook profiles of all members.

[MRE]

Astrological sign?
In Asia, its all about the blood type.

Which I have no clue what mine is..

[Benjamin Davis]

I'll say my view again but...it's not like we're running an inn here.  Or any kind of government registered entity with legal requirements.  Less is more.  A name and email address is more than enough info for me.  If we do any class dangerous to require emergency contact, it would be more appropriate to do waivers on a case-by-case basis anyway -- but even still I'd rather keep things as casual, accessible, and lazy as possible.

Visa status / gaijin card / medical insurance / criminal records of all relatives within 6 generations / etc. -- I *don't want to know*.

[Torsten Wagner]

As I said I do not know for Japan, just know a little about it for Germany.
Well basically, you need a "Vereinssatzung" (articles of
association), which clearly point out stuff like
what is the purpose of the NGO
what does a membership mean
how to enter a membership
how to leave a membership
etc.

I just checked the German laws and according to them, only the total
number of members need to be send to legislative offices on request.
However, many NGOs need to keep the data internally for another
reason. A NGO is vested with legal capacity, it can e,g. rent
properties, purchases in the name of the NGO, it can sign contracts,
pay bills, etc. It also could also could take legal actions against
members (e.g. due to theft or vandalism).
However, most important a NGO needs to hold plenary meetings (e.g. to
elect the board of directors) with there members and e.g. for that
they want to send written invitation letters out to each and all
registered members. Needless to say a minimum of members have to
attend such a meeting to make any kind of election valid. For this
reasons they collect information about there members. As a general
rule I found the advice that only the minimum of necessary data should
be collected. Guess in the case of THS this might be full name, email,
phone and a postage address.


Again that is all according to German law but I guess NGO-system in
Japan is similar.
Looking into it, I see that a NGO has many advantages, however, it
also comes with a larger set of requirements which has to be fulfilled
at all time.
The pro and cons are kind of debatable...

Totti

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[lauren shannon]

I think our main concerns are

1. health emergency
2. confidence in safety and good use of the space esp. since we are
sharing with two other businesses.

If we can meet those two concerns with minimal info then we are good.
If we need more then we need more and if people are unwilling then
maybe this version of THS in a shared space is not for them...
Everyone has a personal choice. No one is twisting anyone's arm.

Not sure what we would need for NGO status. But I suspect it would be
all the detailed info on the board of directors, and one person to be
the one who's head is on a block for tax evasion, or other illegal
activity.

Lauren

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[fakufaku]

My opinion is that we are debating a problem that doesn' t exist.

[fakufaku]

...instead of focusing on what matters : making cool stuff!

[Edward Middleton]

Sorry for responding to an old thread.

Generally when collecting potentially private information you should
work out, why its needed for, and what it will be used for. Some of the
information that MRE proposed collecting can be abused in various
nefarious ways and shouldn't really be collected unless really necessary.

in regard to the below concerns.

For 1. It might be a good idea to collect an emergency contact number.
i.e. someone to contact if a member becomes or is found incapacitated.
This is what airlines do.

I don't think the level of information that you can reasonably expect
people to provide will help with 2.

Edward