Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Native, Wild, Holdover, or Stocked...

[Steve]

Trent,  

You are correct.I made the mistake of typing "native" in my mention of the wild browns in Beaver Creak.  They are holdovers raised in the upstream hatchery.  

"Wild-American" could describe many anglers here I'd say.  Good point.  

On Sep 30, 2012, at 11:25 PM, Trent Jones <tjon...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Two pieces of information that have been posted recently, that I believe to be incorrect, have got me to thinking….

1.      John Gierach referring to himself as a native American in a book quote.

2.      Native brown trout populate the waters of Beaver Creek in MD.

John Gierach looks to be of European descent. In fact Gierach is a German name.   So, by my estimate, John Gierach is no more native American than the trout swimming in Beaver Creek are native Browns.

 

All Brown Trout come from Europe, and parts of Asia, some from Germany, like Gierach’s family lineage. Since the correct designation of Brown Trout found in north America is either stocked, wild, or holdover (never native)…we must assume that John Gierach must be either a Stocked, wild, or holdover-American. From what I gather John Gierach was born somewhere in the Midwest area of North America in 1946. This tells us that clearly he is not a stocked-American. Since we also know that John Gierach has memories of his late father and was not placed in the Midwest in some sort of test tube, we can conclude that he is not a holdover-American either.

 

I think we must surmise that, as the trout in Beaver Creek are wild Browns…John Gierach is indeed a wild-American.  

 

-Trent Jones 

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[Trent Jones]

I thought you may have meant that Doublehaul, just as I think I understand what Gieach meant. However, I am confused that you refer to the wild browns in Beaver Creek as "holdovers". Holdover is a designation I use for stocked fish that survive more than a season in a stream. At what point do you call a holdover fish wild? Just curious.

 

-Trent

 

 

 

On Monday, October 1, 2012 6:47:59 AM UTC-4, dubblehaul wrote:

Trent,  

You are correct.I made the mistake of typing "native" in my mention of the wild browns in Beaver Creak.  They are holdovers raised in the upstream hatchery.  

"Wild-American" could describe many anglers here I'd say.  Good point.  

On Sep 30, 2012, at 11:25 PM, Trent Jones <tjon...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Two pieces of information that have been posted recently, that I believe to be incorrect, have got me to thinking….

1.      John Gierach referring to himself as a native American in a book quote.

2.      Native brown trout populate the waters of Beaver Creek in MD.

John Gierach looks to be of European descent. In fact Gierach is a German name.   So, by my estimate, John Gierach is no more native American than the trout swimming in Beaver Creek are native Browns.

 

All Brown Trout come from Europe, and parts of Asia, some from Germany, like Gierach’s family lineage. Since the correct designation of Brown Trout found in north America is either stocked, wild, or holdover (never native)…we must assume that John Gierach must be either a Stocked, wild, or holdover-American. From what I gather John Gierach was born somewhere in the Midwest area of North America in 1946. This tells us that clearly he is not a stocked-American. Since we also know that John Gierach has memories of his late father and was not placed in the Midwest in some sort of test tube, we can conclude that he is not a holdover-American either.

 

I think we must surmise that, as the trout in Beaver Creek are wild Browns…John Gierach is indeed a wild-American.  

 

-Trent Jones 

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[Steve]

In order to cover for my inadequacies as an angler, and make myself feel better when I get skunked, I might say that the fish that rejected my fly and presentation "was wily and wild", though I may just have botched the cast, had too heavy of a foot, wore the wrong hat, or brought the wrong flies.  

Seriously though.  The conventional, and technically correct answer is that wild fish are always born in the wild and holdovers are stocked fish who've survived at least one season.  Depending on the stretch of water, holdover and wild fish can appear very similar as well if the holdover has lived most of it's life in the wild and adapted in color and behavior.  There can be a genetic difference as well. Stocked fish can have smaller fins and be inferior to their wild cousins who tend to be stronger fish…blah, blah, blah.  It took like 5 minutes to research this.

From an angling experience though, one may never know the difference between the two unless the fish is brought to hand.  The difference could be obvious in the fight though in some circumstances. Powder Mill Hatchery in New Hampshire raises and releases brook trout when they reach the 2Lb size.  They really appear tank-raised too, not the brightly colored wild cousin we love to photograph.  I can imagine those guys, if they survive to be holdovers will never really match the beauty and strength of wild 2 Lb brookie.  

There are conservation issues with C&R of stocked and holdovers fish.  The crossbreeding of wild and holdovers can result in genetically inferior species.  So, some hatcheries snip a fin so anglers know to take the stocked ones and release the wild.  This is certainly the practice with steelhead and salmon where I grew up in the NW.  I will say though that the hatchery steelhead are pretty fun to jump, but don't taste as rich as the wild fish I grew up on.  I can't remember when I ate wild trout last (probably 30 years ago), even in the high alpine lakes of the Cascades where I used to fish were stocked by helicopter. I do remember the meat of wild trout being more red and tastier than the stocked and holdover fish.  I used to think that stream fish tasted better than lake, but it was more about whether they were wild, holdover or just stocked.  

The DNR biologist who manages Beaver Creek in Maryland referred to there being both wild and holdover fish in the lower section of the creek.  However, my understanding is that the upper section of the creek, closer to the hatchery, has a gravel stream bed that supports much more bug life and  there are more holdovers there and fewer wild fish.  The lower section is a C&R/Fly-only stretch;  the holdovers have had a chance to reproduce wild fish.  The one fish I caught in the lower section was one of those.  

It's a good topic for longer thread, Trent.  I hope others will offer some opinion as well.  

Now I have an urge to go to fish one of the trout farms and grill up some fresh fish.  Anyone know where the closest one is?  I don't want to drive three hours.  

Steve

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[Trent Jones]

Like I said Steve, just curious. Thank you for posting your research
and thoughts.

-Trent