Has anyone done well at Four Mile Run recently?

[Paul Kalajainen]

From the last few posts I've read it seems like the action is slowing down even at 4MR, and it's colder now than it was then.  I was hoping to get out on Monday with my brother before he heads back to college.  It's supposed to be 42 degrees that day - should we just hang out and tie some flies or is it worth going out?  Also - what kind of gloves do you all wear?  I can't figure out how to keep my hands warm and still be able to feel the line/tie knots/etc.

[r...@robsnowhite.com]

Any snowmelt from this weekend will throw off 4mr. All the water plus oil from the dirty snow may make it stained. Stained water may negate the clear outflow from doody treatment. 

I like the Simms glommits. Most often wear Patagonia fingertip less or wool fingertip less from ranger surplus. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 28, 2012, at 9:35 AM, Paul Kalajainen <paulkal...@gmail.com> wrote:

From the last few posts I've read it seems like the action is slowing down even at 4MR, and it's colder now than it was then.  I was hoping to get out on Monday with my brother before he heads back to college.  It's supposed to be 42 degrees that day - should we just hang out and tie some flies or is it worth going out?  Also - what kind of gloves do you all wear?  I can't figure out how to keep my hands warm and still be able to feel the line/tie knots/etc.

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[Paul Kalajainen]

Thanks Rob.  Any suggestions on a different place to go or will the weather mess things up everywhere?  Sounds like we may need to just hang out and tie a few flies for our next outing.

[r...@robsnowhite.com]

Water exiting Dickerson should be fish able. At least the first half mile below the discharge and along the bank. Big hunting creek is a tail water so the water will stay clear. Spring creeks like mossy and falling springs (colder in pa so less likely to have runoff too). 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 28, 2012, at 10:30 AM, Paul Kalajainen <paulkal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Rob.  Any suggestions on a different place to go or will the weather mess things up everywhere?  Sounds like we may need to just hang out and tie a few flies for our next outing.

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[Matthew Longley]

I haven't found gloves that I really like casting with yet, but I've found that I am generally fine stuffing a pair of gloves in my waders and either alternating hands (so I've always got some skin on the line) or just occasionally putting them on when I start to get really cold.  I was on the Mousam River in Maine a few days ago, it was 34 degrees with my rod icing over every 15 mins, and this technique got me over 4 hours before I started to lose dexterity.

[HeaveToo]

How are you guys accessing 4MR near the water input?

[Daniel Davala]

Brendan,

 

You have made your thoughts and opinions very clear on this in the past.  Some agree with you, some don't.  Taking personal shots at individual members here or the group at large, however, will not be tolerated.  I believe you owe Rob and the rest who don't share your opinion an apology, preferably prior to posting anything further.  While I can appreciate your desire to "protect" public resources like Big Hunting Creek from the public, these are in fact, public resources and exist for the purpose of recreational use.  Additionally, while it is certainly true that fragile resources like small, wild trout streams can be easily loved to death, they can also just as easily be sheltered into extinction.

 

Dan Davala

On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 4:00 AM, Brendan <brenda...@gmail.com> wrote:

groupon 'guides' aside,  recommend topo maps and google... 

looks for springs, outflows and tailwaters when it starts getting cold. 

and for the clowns that still haven't gotten it.... stop promoting small wild trout streams to massive listservs. 

On Friday, December 28, 2012 4:42:39 PM UTC-5, HeaveToo wrote:

How are you guys accessing 4MR near the water input?

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[Jarrod Hills]

FYI, I just joined this board not too long ago but knew about areas like Mossy Creek and other public waters from no less than three different books. These have been public knowledge long before the internet and groups such as this. I haven't made it out there yet but hope to soon.

[Gmail]

Rob,

Are you still doing Groupon?  How do I buy?

Thanks!

Humbled clown

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 29, 2012, at 4:00 AM, Brendan <brenda...@gmail.com> wrote:

groupon 'guides' aside,  recommend topo maps and google... 

looks for springs, outflows and tailwaters when it starts getting cold. 

and for the clowns that still haven't gotten it.... stop promoting small wild trout streams to massive listservs. 

On Friday, December 28, 2012 4:42:39 PM UTC-5, HeaveToo wrote:

How are you guys accessing 4MR near the water input?

[Brendan]

Alright, I apologize for putting it in those terms. I'm sure rob and everyone on here is good people. Wish you had participated in the last thread rather than skipping on to promoting the stream again.

Honestly it's disappointing going to big hunting now and seeing someone at every hole, seeing other fisherman wade right through where others are casting, and having noticed the population dip considerably whether through drought and heat or the enormous increase in pressure and people carelessly wading through spawning grounds. Gunpowder has also taken a horrible hit, but at least it's a decent sized stream and doesn't shrink to hardly anything during the summer. 

If we start promoting specific 'public' small streams that rely on natural reproduction near dc, say in SNP, we can have 'em cleaned out by end of 2013... haven't checked up on whether the brookie spawn is complete, but there might even be a few redds left to trample if the group can pick a stream, start a thread and all head out this week. Only issue will be parking... 

Every tiny brook trout stream, hidden lake or 'secret' access point is already public.  That said, there is a distinct difference between what is public and actively promoting by name small wild trout streams in a metro area of 5 million+ to list that i've heard is pushing close to a thousand now, especially when i doubt any of us can name half of the members.  No idea if some people like to 'just take a few home' regardless of regulations, if they're the folding chair & cooler type that line up and trash the banks along hawksbill, or the type that has no problem jumpin in up top an occupied run. I'd guess 90% aren't, but doesn't take many to destroy a mile and half of skinny water.

So yeah.. Rob, again sorry for saying it in a dick way.  Less worried about Hunting Creek, which has already taken a big hit, than what the next wild trout stream will be.  

Brendan 

On Saturday, December 29, 2012 8:41:41 AM UTC-5, Dan Davala - Founder/President wrote:

Brendan,

 

You have made your thoughts and opinions very clear on this in the past.  Some agree with you, some don't.  Taking personal shots at individual members here or the group at large, however, will not be tolerated.  I believe you owe Rob and the rest who don't share your opinion an apology, preferably prior to posting anything further.  While I can appreciate your desire to "protect" public resources like Big Hunting Creek from the public, these are in fact, public resources and exist for the purpose of recreational use.  Additionally, while it is certainly true that fragile resources like small, wild trout streams can be easily loved to death, they can also just as easily be sheltered into extinction.

 

Dan Davala

On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 4:00 AM, Brendan <brenda...@gmail.com> wrote:

groupon 'guides' aside,  recommend topo maps and google... 

looks for springs, outflows and tailwaters when it starts getting cold. 

and for the clowns that still haven't gotten it.... stop promoting small wild trout streams to massive listservs. 

On Friday, December 28, 2012 4:42:39 PM UTC-5, HeaveToo wrote:

How are you guys accessing 4MR near the water input?

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[Miles]

Brendan,

I don't find this apology particularly helpful. First, I think you're misunderstanding the point of this club: namely, to encourage people to fish more diversely in our region, and not focus exclusively on teeny-weeny trout. For every angler you bump elbows with on Big Hunting each Saturday, I would reckon TPFR has a half-dozen hitting 4MR, Chain Bridge, the Occoquan, Riverbend, Hemlock Overlook, and other non-trout locations. We spend 80-90% of our time up here talking about everything but trout; the easiest way to keep people from fishing for trout is to show them something better. And your use of SNP is disingenuous: every post I can remember on the subject this fall has recommended people stay out of SNP streams during the spawning season.

Second, I also think you're making a categorical error in how you understand lots of the places we fish. Mossy Creek, Upper South River, Beaver Creek, the Gunpowder, the lower Jackson, and - yes - Big Hunting Creek are man-made fisheries. Even if the trout are 'wild' on Big Hunting, there is no way they would be there now without extensive human intervention. So it's kinda BS to swing the term 'wild' around as if you're standing up for something pristine. We (people) made those fisheries, and we can make more. Those guys on Big Hunting are evidence that there's demand for lots more of these sorts of fisheries.

So where you might look at this forum and this group as lots of competitors who want to fish 'your' favorite spots, I see allies that can help push fisheries managers to make better decisions, and to revitalize -- if not create outright -- more 'wild' trout streams in our region. We've already seen this group join the effort to pressure the Atlantic Fisheries Council to reduce the commercial menhaden catch, and some of us are watching the restoration of 4 Mile Run closely and looking for ways we can get involved (http://alexandriava.gov/uploadedFiles/planning/info/masterplan/Four%20Mile%20Run%20Restoration%20Master%20Plan.pdf) -- just to bring this back to the original thread topic.

Point being: I think your apology would be more effective if you were tuned in to what we're trying to do, and tried to be helpful, rather than woe-is-me whinging about the end of the world as we know it.

thanks,

Miles 

[Carl Zmola]

On 12/28/2012 09:35 AM, Paul Kalajainen wrote:
> Also - what kind of gloves do you all wear? I can't figure out how to
> keep my hands warm and still be able to feel the line/tie knots/etc.

I have a pair of neoprene gloves with slits cut at the base of the index
finger, ring finger and thumb. I wear them as regular gloves when
fishing and stick my fingers out when tying knots. The slits will let
water in, but it allows my to tye knots. The extra neoprene fingers
occasionally get in the way, but its not too bad. I've seen neoprene
fishing gloves that are pre-built like this, with velcro on the back of
the fingers and back of the hand, so when you have your fingers out of
the glove, they can be stuck back out of the way.

fingerless polarfleece also works, (still provides warmth when wet).

The real fun is when you start worrying on how to keep your guides from
icing up. Usually a plunge into the river melts the ice.

Carl

[Longley]

That's great Jeff!  A day on the water with no bites beats pretty much any other day.  If you ever wanna slap water with another noob, shoot me an email.

Sent from my mobile device

On Dec 30, 2012, at 8:09 PM, Jeff <jeffre...@gmail.com> wrote:

Best part of fishing 4MR today:  nobody else to see me (the ultimate newbie) & my buddy flail.  I'm sad to say that NO fish were harmed/harassed/carefully released in the incredibly windy & cold conditions.  The outfall was unworkable because of the gusts.  Conditions were better near the bridges but I didn't do anything better than a single nibble between noon and two-thirty as the tide was going out.  And I couldn't stop smiling because:  

1) I was comfortable with the area thanks to Rob S. (whose excellent guide services were a birthday gift from my wife).  Would never have found any of this (group, area, fun) without him.  If I hadn't been spending $$$ buying gear I would have been booking more time with him this past couple of months.

2) I was wearing new waders personally fitted & sized by Miles.

3) Dan had recently re-spooled my reel with a line that I already had & shared a bunch of knowledge with me free of charge.

4) We were throwing flies we had tied at a TPFR Beer Tie.

5) I was on the water with a friend.

Thanks to everyone for imparting their knowledge & experience.  Can't wait to learn more and actually catch some fish when the conditions improve.  The best part of this group is its inclusiveness.

Cheers,

Jeff

On Friday, December 28, 2012 9:35:14 AM UTC-5, Paul Kalajainen wrote:

From the last few posts I've read it seems like the action is slowing down even at 4MR, and it's colder now than it was then.  I was hoping to get out on Monday with my brother before he heads back to college.  It's supposed to be 42 degrees that day - should we just hang out and tie some flies or is it worth going out?  Also - what kind of gloves do you all wear?  I can't figure out how to keep my hands warm and still be able to feel the line/tie knots/etc.

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[John Bilotta]

Jeff

Totally agree with Matt.

Hope to see you out there.

John

Sent from my iPhone

[GSFeder]

Well said, Miles. 

Cheers, 

-- Greg

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[TurbineBlade]

Hey!  Glad to see more discussion on this -- this is probably a good thing.  My opinion pretty much mirrors Miles 100%,  so nothing more to add.  Well, I could just repeat Miles and fill up white space, but my wife made me promise to be less ignernt here in 2 days....so I'll start early for practice.  

Oh, and meeting RSW in person would eliminate any of this other stuff.  The internet kind of takes away that connection, but he's a good couple of dudes, man.  

Gene

BTW - I killed 5 rooster pheasants and 1 hen Sunday -- borax a good preservative for skins?  Borat?  We've eaten a lot of the meat -- good, but some #6 shotgun pellets in there.  I like lead more than steel, it's more chewy!

On Friday, December 28, 2012 9:35:14 AM UTC-5, Paul Kalajainen wrote:

[HeaveToo]

I have to add that it was nice to get back on topic!  In all seriousness, this group discussion brings together like minded people.  Outdoors men and women are some of the strongest conservationists.  If that is so, fly fishermen may be the special forces because more of us tend to believe harder in conservation principles.

I am going to take a friend to four mile run soon.  I am hoping that the fish will bite (don't really care what bites).  Wish me luck!

[Brendan]

Miles, we clearly don't know each other which was one of the mistakes i made in a previous post... 

First off, I actually agree with a majority of what you and Dan are saying. I guess you were both eager to push back and it certainly is easier attacking a strawman rather than the points i made....

I think there is a distinction to be made between the terms 'public' and 'promotion'. I have actively posted and supported providing the resources people need to find publicly available information on fishing opportunities in the region and will gladly do another post with links and resources to both explore and find good fishing opportunities for bass, trout, stripers, whatever. And I've never made an argument against promoting streams and access points that are good places to learn, take a friend, or whatever with stable or mostly stocked populations. However, hotspotting and regularly promoting small streams can put incredible pressure on fairly fragile ecosystems, whether they're "man made" or not.  

You then attack me for being disingenuous, which i think is against the rules here, but nonetheless... I am simply saying if we start hotspotting small streams in the park, that are already under enormous pressure, we further focus the pressure and could end up causing serious harm. However, providing the resources to finding all the great fishing opportunities throughout SNP, GW, etc. can help immensely, perhaps more than naming specific water especially in the park where one valley can be slow fishing while the next can have brookies gobbling everything.  I think it's great what this group has done for spreading awareness on issues like Didymo, spawning, etc. I wish TPFR had been around when i first started fishing the park because it wasn't until a couple years later at a fly shop that i learned about the damage wading can do to redds and the entire process.

You're closing to that whole argument against hotspotting, "We (people) made those fisheries, and we can make more" is kind of a ridiculous counter to preservation and again refers to arguments i never made. I assume you meant the best by it and that we should create more, but you can take one look at the science on mid-atlantic trout fisheries and realize we're on a mostly downward trend, with skinny water home to native and wild fish getting the hardest hit by warming, acid rain, human pressure, and deforestation. 

Back to the point that we don't know each other .. I don't look at this group as competition, otherwise i wouldn't have participated in many of the discussions  hopefully providing at least a tenth as much useful advice as i've gotten.  I probably introduced a dozen people to fishing on the Potomac or nearby in the last year and regularly recommend this forum as a resource.  I personally had never gone after schoolies in the potomac until becoming a member on here and found some of the hints, particularly on fly and line choice particularly useful...  For what it's worth, and sorry(?) for not talking about it...i never did it for credit, but  I was actively involved in securing federal money for not only the four mile run rehabilitation, but nps land purchases in the big hunting creek watershed and elsewhere, and coordinated with several congressional offices to build a three state, multi-member coalition to fund better science on the impacts of fracking in the Delaware River watershed....I've worked on projects from Bristol Bay and the Elwha restoration (you might see me out on the water with a "Last Dam Summer" hat on occasionally)  to the deep water horizon response and funding for the USGS to study and investigate the endocrine disruptor and intersex fish problem plaguing the potomac bass fishery.  Lots of people, probably several on here, have done significantly more, but none of this work would have people possible without the recent rise of outdoorsmen in becoming a non-partisan force in protecting public lands. TU, TNC, Ducks Unlimited, their members, and thousands of other groups on a local level have significantly changed the landscape for the better. Great knowing people from this group are involved as well.  

Closing up. Wish you all a happy new year, sincere apologies everyone for starting this all with completely the wrong tone. Owe a couple of you some beers if we ever meet.  I'll also work on putting together a post with a ton of helpful information and resources for finding and fishing the variety public resources in the area. The local fly shops probably are even better tho, and if you're willing to hire a guide out west, think of supporting the shops and guides locally as well, since they have a ton of knowledge and can help put you and visiting friends and first timers on good fish. 

in terms of fishing advice -- Four mile run/gravelly should continue to be slow this week (tho sometimes it'll turn on for an hour or two when the tide/temps peak) as well as most maryland streams, and other mt. streams, as it will continue to be pretty chilly the rest of the week... recommend dickerson for crappie & bass, pa or va springs for trout. be careful tho, banks/rocks are getting icy up in the 'hollers' and falls seem hurt twice as bad in this weather.  

Best, 

Brendan

[TurbineBlade]

Long responses -- to me it's simple.  If hotspotting ("troutspotting" for the remainder of this message) pisses you off, you probably feel that:

1.  trout are superior to other species

2.  trout waters are superior to non-trout waters

Keeping secrets is perfectly fine.  Listen. It's quiet.  The silence you hear is all the people on the forum not sharing secrets, but also not posting angry messages about it when someone mentions throwing woolly buggers in pocket water.  

I'll probably be dead in 30-40 years.  Because of this (the death thing), and because I disagree with #1-2, I couldn't care less about troutspotting. 

Plus, I love hellbenders.  

Gene

On Friday, December 28, 2012 9:35:14 AM UTC-5, Paul Kalajainen wrote:

[Longley]

A few things, mostly with the intention of restoring some civility here.

1- Brendan, I dont think the underlying issue here is what you are saying, but how you are saying it.  You and I have butted heads in the past, but since then I have been really impressed with the contributions you have made to these discussions.  I would certainly love to buy you a bunch of beers and pick your mind.  But your notes have also had a very caustic and aggressive tone to them.  It's my opinion that an honest apology, without caveats or 'buts', is in order.  Take that as you will.

2-  I think, as with most online conversations, the tone in general has gotten a bit out of hand.  Some of the responses to Brendan's emails focus on points he made 3-4 posts ago, and some are meeting incivility with incivility.  I'm not trying to call anyone out here, but let's all just take a step back.

Sent from my mobile device

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[Howard A]

I hit up 4MR this afternoon, it wasn't on fire, but the water was clear by the bridges with a lot of gizzard shad lining the drop off by the bank on the south side.  I caught a few decent Crappie, one LMB and some sun fish. I tried by the outflow as well with less success.

Carp were mildly active on the surface, Todd Kim caught a nice one, which I got a video of (Todd I don't have your email address, but if you send me an email I'll get it to you).

Howard

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[TAEHWAN KIM]

Howard,

 

It was nice meeting you out there yesterday.

I fished until 8:00 and managed pull out 11 carp. The biggest was  36 3/4 inch and 27 lb. 

They are out there, we just need to figure out how with flies.

 

Tight Lines and Happy New Year.

 

Todd 

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[TurbineBlade]

Wow!  11 carp on the fly is insane -- well done!  I used to love fishing for carp with oatmeal/jello balls on spinning tackle, but I've never even come close to hooking one on a fly. 

 

 

Gene

On Friday, December 28, 2012 9:35:14 AM UTC-5, Paul Kalajainen wrote:

[HeaveToo]

That carp is HUGE!  Nice catch!

One of these days I am going to hook one! 

[TAEHWAN KIM]

Gene,

It wasn't on the fly. I used an 18 feet carbon fishing pole with a dough ball.

I used to catch  them on flies before at 4MR, but they aren't taking any flies yet.

Don't know why.

 

Todd

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[TurbineBlade]

Oh - gotcha.  Still a great fish!  I doubt I've caught more than 4-5 in an outing regardless of equipment.  Those guys sure are fun to fight....I mostly used to use 8 pound test with a 6-7' rod.  

I messed around a little with hair rigs and boilies, but honestly I got hung up so much that I never really used them much.  I think I still have some power pro and hair rigs pre-tied somewhere around here....

[Lane Smith]

Good lord what a fish! I'm curious about the 18 foot carbon fishing pole though that is quite something!

I haven't tried to fish 4milerun after dark thinking it unproductive due to low visibility. Am I wrong in assuming that?

[Longley]

Todd, was that one of the long telescoping Japanese rods where the line is just attached to the tip, with no reel?  Dan showed me one of those at Orvis and it was really interesting.  Wondering how that would handle on a monster carp like that.

Sent from my mobile device

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[Daniel Davala]

Matt,

 

The rod I showed you was a Tenkara rod.  Todd is using a "Hera Rod" which is something altogether different.  He posted a good bit of info and pictures about it a while back on THIS THREAD.  Looks like just another great way to have fun!

 

Dan Davala

[flytimesDC]

watch out for beavers

[Paul Kalajainen]

Howard and Todd,

Awesome to hear you guys were successful the other day!  I would have seen you out there had I not come down with this flu.  Instead of fishing I've been laying in my house for 4 days now cancelling all my plans and watching terrible movies on Netflix.  I hope to meet up with you guys soon, I have a new rod to break in and I'm just itching to get out there.

Paul

[Long N.]

Was in Maryland over the holidays and snuck out christmas afternoon for a few hours...managed to get a nice carp on the 7 weight nymphing. 

[HeaveToo]

I went down to 4 mile run today.  I managed to get skunked!  It was pretty cold too.

The only interesting thing that I did see was a dead muskrat came floating by me.  Not sure what killed him but it is always nasty when dead animals come floating by you.

I am still wondering how to access the water outflow area. 

[Timothy Murphy]

Its nasty but the tier in me can't help but think what nice flies I could tie with that. 

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[Jeffrey Silvan]

You can either park by Pier 1 and walk along the trail until you see the outflow and wade in from there (you'll get in just after a little drainage "bridge") or park at Four Mile Run Park off Mount Vernon Ave. 

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[HeaveToo]

Thanks for the info.  I guess that I didn't walk down the trail far enough.  Are you walking down the trail on the plant side of the run or the other side where you access the area near the bridge to fish?

[Paul Kalajainen]

Back in October Jeff Silvan (thanks Jeff!) made this really useful map.  It's what I used the first time I went to access the discharge area there.  Just follow the path long enough and you'll be able to wade in right across from the water discharge.

-Paul

[Matthew Longley]

HA!  Only been there a few times, but I've been fishing the wrong "discharge"...  Thanks for the map Paul, thats a big help.

[Jeffrey Silvan]

I do the opposite. There arent as many access points on the plant side, and depending in flow and tide, the plant side would make me swim more than a step off the bank.

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[HeaveToo]

I did try the one spot today near where the path bends off.  Before that I spent most of my time near the bridge and fishing the area towards the power lines. 

The one spot near where the path bends has a creek coming out near it.  It is a natural point.  I did some casting in the area.  I may have had a hit there but I am not 100% sure of what it was (something on the bottom or a big fish).  It was a thump.  I was slowly fishing a streamer. 

I also tried using a nymph today.  I didn't have any hits on it at all. 

The water was clear and the tide was going out.

[Jeffrey Silvan]

Paul, thanks for that reminder! I just slightly updated the map to also reflect the Mount Vernon Ave parking area. I wasn't aware of that location (which is much closer to the discharge) when I first made that map! The same link should work.

On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Paul Kalajainen <paulkal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Back in October Jeff Silvan (thanks Jeff!) made this really useful map.  It's what I used the first time I went to access the discharge area there.  Just follow the path long enough and you'll be able to wade in right across from the water discharge.

-Paul

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