Suggestions on my first DH rod

[Yang Chang]

Hi all:

I wonder if the if the Sage TCX 7wt 12'6" is a good versatile rod for both salmon/steelhead and surf striper fishing, also potomac? I have xi2 7wt for steelhead and xi2 9wt for striper for couple years, and now I really want to join the DH club. I am not a tall guy and I prefer light rod. Couple years ago, I went to a D-day at the Fletcher's cove, and I felt some spey rods was heavy for me. I was thinking to get a switch rod first, but I remember Don suggested me to consider spey. Anyway, after two-year hesitation, I decided to go spey!

Also, what line setup do you recommend for this rod? 

Can I use the same line setup for both salmon/steelhead and striper?

The largest reel I have is Orvis Hydros large arbor V, 9/10, 8oz. Does it have enough capacity? 

Many thanks!

Yang 

[Mike D.]

Yang - It's as if you read my mind.  I was thinking of asking the same question, and we've got nearly identical set-ups (7-wt. for steelhead, 9-wt. for stripers).  My main concern is finding something that could work in the surf/on the Potomac/up on the Erie tribs.  Is this possible?  I guess we'll find out.  I'm also curious about the appropriate line which might be able to function for all purposes.  The whole spey/switch/shooting head line system thing confuses the hell out of me.  And, like you, I was curious about capacity on my Orvis Access IV (7-9-wt.).

People have mentioned Rise Fishing Co. rods in the past, and they're supposed to be coming out with some spey rods in the not-too-distant future.  Their prices are fantastic, so I'm super-interested in what they're going to offer.  Those Sages look sweet, but I love saving $$$ (and trying out rods from various manufacturers).  Excited to hear some input!

[Rob Snowhite]

I'm a big fan of the Temple Fork Outfitters Deer Creek rods. http://www.templeforkflyrods.com/products/rods/deercreek.html

The price is awesome, the warranty is great, and it fishes superb. The rod tube is super bulky for travel. That is the only draw back.

 

Rob Snowhite

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From: Mike D. <mik...@gmail.com>
To: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 8:53 AM
Subject: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Suggestions on my first DH rod

Yang - It's as if you read my mind.  I was thinking of asking the same question, and we've got nearly identical set-ups (7-wt. for steelhead, 9-wt. for stripers).  My main concern is finding something that could work in the surf/on the Potomac/up on the Erie tribs.  Is this possible?  I guess we'll find out.  I'm also curious about the appropriate line which might be able to function for all purposes.  The whole spey/switch/shooting head line system thing confuses the hell out of me.  And, like you, I was curious about capacity on my Orvis Access IV (7-9-wt.).

People have mentioned Rise Fishing Co. rods in the past, and they're supposed to be coming out with some spey rods in the not-too-distant future.  Their prices are fantastic, so I'm super-interested in what they're going to offer.  Those Sages look sweet, but I love saving $$$ (and trying out rods from various manufacturers).  Excited to hear some input!

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[Dan Davala - Founder/President]

Yang, Mike, and all,

 

Great questions!  While all of the options may seem dizzying, the great thing is, most will work just fine.  I have my opinions, and others have theirs.  Simply put, there are many ways to play this game.  John Bilotta and I have fished for Stripers, Shad, and other species out here with everything from 11' - 15' rods, and in nearly every line weight configuration. 

 

My short answer is, any two-handed rod from 11'-14' that will handle a minimum Grain weight of 400 Grains+ will work great.  Beyond that, it is a matter of preference.  In my opinion, I like a longer rod because I can span the widest range of conditions if I have a single hand 9' rod and a Double in the 13'-14' range.  I find when I am fishing BIG water (for anything), I like my BIG rod, and when the water is small or the fish are in close, it's hard to beat a single hand rod, especially if you get proficient making Spey Casts with it.  A switch rod is light and fun, and it nicely fills the niches between these two scenarios, but it is certainly the master of neither. 

 

About the surf, there are several schools of thought, and all are valid.  Personally, I much prefer my long rods in the surf and fish my 14' 9weight the most.  As you know, the surf zone is BIG water, and a long rod has many advantages when lifting line over waves, repositioning line for another cast, and casting repeatedly with the least amount of effort.  Again, these are only my opinions, but they are based on actual fishing experiences with rods from 9'-15'.

 

About the Erie/Ontario tribs, I have far less experience than others here, so I hope Richie, Rob, John, and others will chime in.  The tribs I have fished for Steelhead I could cover extremely well with a single hand rod and Spey Casts.  There are many specialized lines made for this type of fishing these days as well, which can maximize the efficiency of single hand rods in the smaller streams. 

 

For lines, I fish a Skagit line with different tips in both the Potomac and in the surf.  Many internet forums suggested that Skagit lines and sustained anchor casts would not work well in the Surf, but I have found the opposite to be true.  There is merit and value to learning to cast and fish with other types of lines, and I do, but day in and day out I find the Skagit set up to be the best for what I do.  Especially since stripping line is a useful part of my retrieve for imparting action to the fly when fishing Shad, Stripers, Bluefish, etc.  Of course, I can swing with it two when that is the desired presentation.

 

About the reels you both mention, the Hydros 5 will have plenty of capacity for any Switch or Spey setup from 11'-14' and for line ratings of #6-#9.  I think it is a bit big actually for the 11'-12'6" rods, but that is my opinion.  I fish a #5 Mirage (same capacity) on my 14' 9weight and find the balance to be perfect, but I had to back it with Gel Spun (GSP) to get the capacity I want.  The Access #4 reel mentioned will work on a switch rod, but will be a bit light to balance anything much over 11' in length, regardless of line rating. 

 

By far, the best thing you guys can do is get down on the river with John Bilotta and others when we gather for casting sessions.  Most of the rods described above are available for a test drive, and with nearly every line system imaginable.  I hope this helps a bit, and I look forward to other's opinions.

 

Dan Davala

[HeaveToo]

Dan,
That is some awesome information.  Someday I want to get into spey casting too but the budget is not willing now. 

[Greg Feder]

Thanks, Dan.  I'm not in the market for a two-hander, but I've filed away this informative note for the future.  

Cheers, 

-- Greg 

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From: Dan Davala - Founder/President <daniel...@gmail.com>
To: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 10:11 AM

Subject: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Suggestions on my first DH rod

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[John Bilotta]

Just to pitch in, I second Dan's points on rods, especially  that  "most will work just fine."

 I have the TCX 12'6",  it is a great, fast action rod affectionately called by some the "deathstar."    I use mine on the river and up in NY. I usually fish it with a 550 grain skagit line and a 10-12 sink tip.

 

That said, I am not sure I would recommend this rod to a brand new TH caster. I  generally recommend 7wts between 13' and 13'6", with a more moderate-fast action, for most users.  

You can try my TCX some weekend at club casting, and several other 7wts and see what you like.   

Chrs

John

[Yang Chang]

Hi Dan, John, and all:

Thanks for your suggestions! And thank John for your offer!

When is the next club casting?

Best,

Yang

[John Bilotta]

Currently planning Oct 20.

[Yang Chang]

Hi John:

Why do you recommend new DH caster starts between 13' and 13'6" not shorter spey rod?  

Thanks!

Yang

[John Bilotta]

Yang,

I  think they are a good mid-size rod that casters can use in a number of different fishing situations.  And  there are also a number of very good affordable rods in this category on the market. 

John

[Daniel Davala]

I generally agree about starting two-handed casting with the longer rod if possible - provided the river/fishing situations justify it.  Like John, I give a lot of Spey Casting lessons and one of the things I see the most when a new two-handed caster starts with a switch rod is a tendency to use almost all top hand and very little bottom.  Essentially, they are casting the rod with one hand and just holding the bottom grip because it's there.  This results in a significant INCREASE in the effort required to make a cast, which is the exact opposite of the intended purpose of a two-handed rod.  If this has been going on for a while it can be a difficult habit to break (though it can be broken). 

 

Additionally, with the shorter rods (+/-11') everything else is proportionately shorter than with a longer rod (13'+).  The lift, the sweep, the time it takes for the D-Loop to form, and the power application are all much quicker with a shorter rod.  For some this is not a problem, but for others it can be hard to dial in the timing of these events since they are all taking place over a shorter duration of time.  In contrast, the longer the rod is, the proportionately longer each of these events are, giving the caster more time as each takes place.  Also, with a longer rod, the rod tip will travel significantly farther with effectively the same input from the caster.  The longer the tip travels, the more line can be moved more easily, and there is more distance in which to speed up the line before stopping the rod and making the cast.  It is easier as well to lift/extract longer, heavier sinking tips and heavier flies from the water with fewer motions when using a longer rod.  Simply put, you can get more output with less input, which is a basic principal of leverage.  Lazy casters like me like getting more for less!

 

Dan Davala  

 

P.S.  The type and size of the water intended to be fished should still always be the first consideration when choosing the right rod/line for the job.  If one is looking for their first two-handed rod and only intends to fish small to mid-size streams and rivers, then a shorter spey or switch rod is likely the better choice, and a casting lesson or two can break many bad habits before they ever form.  Since much of our two-handed rod discussions center on the Tidal Potomac River and the surf/coast, it is easier to justify the longer rods and they are truly assets when it comes to BIG water.  Again - the above are only opinions and not the rule. 

[Yang Chang]

Hi, Dan and John:

Thanks again for your help! Very very helpful and make my mind much clear.

 I don't have to spey but I believe it is fun to explore this new field. I will try to go to next group casting and learn more from you two and other group members.

Best,

Yang

[Richard Lin]

After I read this email, I just purchased 6/7wt w/14’ online and received it yesterday! I went to lake nearby and casting it as test this morning!! It is great rod with awesome price!! Yeah it is better than Iphone 5! Thanks Rob!

 

Richard

[Yang Chang]

I went to salmon river early this week and caught steelhead on the sage TCX 7126 and king salmon on 9wt xi2. I knew I should test different DH rods to decide which one to buy, but just couldn't wait for next salmon trip.

I also hooked up some king salmon on the TCX 7126 but didn't successfully land any of them. Compared to the xi2, it is very easy to break 1x tippet or the hook shank on the spey rod. The tippet broke before I felt much pressure. People at the fly shop told me that was common issue of the spey rod. I wonder if it is also because the TCX is ultra fast action and tip doesn't absorb much sudden strike?

Anyway, I am formally became a DH club member now. So excited! Can't wait to try this rod in our local water. I appreciate if anybody can take me to potomac or the surf to test this new toy.

Thanks!

Yang 

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[John Bilotta]

that's great yang.

i love that rod.

if you have any questions let me know.

see you out there.

john

<steelhead.jpg>

[Yang Chang]

Hi John:

I do have couple questions about that rod. In my limited experience, I felt that the same12lb test tippet is easy to be broken on the spey rod than the single hand. Sometimes, it broke before I felt the much pressure on the line. A guy in the local tackle shop said that was common issue of spey rod. Is it true that spey rod has less ability to absorb the sudden strike because it is heavy and stiff than single hand? The TCX is ultra fast action. Will this increase the chance to break the tippet?

Thanks!

Yang

[John Bilotta]

Yang,

 In my opinion,  in general,  #12 should be fine, and can land large fish.  Breakage can depend on many things, from technique, to a nic in the tippet,  to how old the tippet is.   For steelhead,  I generally use tippet between #8-15. When we see each other some morning at Fletcher's we can talk about it in greater detail.

John