Empire vs Two Towers

[Van Allen Plexico]

I know lots of folks who (wrongly!) maintain that The Empire Strikes Back is the best Star Wars film.

Yet I know no one who makes that same claim about the middle movie in the Lord of the Rings trilogy, the Two Towers.

Why would that be?

For me, they both suffer from the same problems: middle segment; no real beginning; no real ending; nothing much resolved; artificial end point created just to (temporarily) wrap things up. And they both include one really kick-ass battle sequence.

Discuss.
--Van

Sent from my iPad

[Edward Crosby]

Wrong. I find The Two Towers the best of the three and my most favorite with Return of the King as my second favorite. Return of the King runs at a very close pace but if it didn't have so many endings it probably would be my favorite.

Edward via Samsung Galaxy Nexus

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[rave...@aol.com]

Empire Strikes Back is a triumph of style, mood, tone, and design. It's defined as a chapter in a large story and succeeds on that merit. 

It works for several reasons. Foremost being, it raised the stakes from the first film in an exciting way, introducing real danger into the plot. Unlike Lord of the Rings, nobody had any idea what was going to happen to these characters. There weren't books lying around that told you the ending. Obi Wan died in the first one, so we'd learned that main characters can be killed, and there was genuine tension. The universe was expanded upon in an epic but controlled way (new planets, but not too many new planets. New characters, but not too many new characters). Humor but not slapstick. 

Great bad guy. Developing romance. Genuinely exciting chases.

It was/is technically beautiful.

Your main point about it not having a defined beginning or end is... I don't even know where to begin with that. Like, you're the reason they reboot Spider-Man every three years. You have to have your origin at the beginning and your medal ceremony at the end, or it's not a "real" story and you're not happy. That's just... a very low level of appreciation for narrative. It's like, "Dah. I know how stories work, dah! They have beginnings and middles and endings! Me am advanced reader. Dah! This not me first movie me want you know. Me watch lots. Guess me write me own book now since me expert." 

Another level Empire works on is as homage to old serials. You know this. They were designed to keep you watching, keep you excited. If it all wrapped up with the bad guy dead and everybody singing yub yub around a fireworks display, it would all be over. I would venture to say more people left the theater after Empire satisfied than they did Jedi even though there was no "proper" ending.

Two Towers is fine, and it's fun to see those characters again, but it's a lot of running around. Competent. Fun. Exciting in places, but less emotion. In general, Lord of the Rings only works because they don't screw it up. Like, they made a move out of a body of work that is difficult to make a movie out of. It gets extra points for that. It's good, even great, but if it were a trilogy called The Elf/Orc War, it wouldn't inspire the same love. 

Empire was/is it's own thing. A masterpiece of genre film, serial narrative, and dark, imaginative sci-fi/fantasy.  There's little comparison between it and the other films in its own series (Star Wars is a close second), and there's zero comparison between it and the second film in any other series. 

Wrath of Khan is pretty good, though!

Caw!

I know lots of folks who (wrongly!) maintain that The Empire Strikes Back is the 
best Star Wars film. 

Yet I know no one who makes that same claim about the middle movie in the Lord 
of the Rings trilogy, the Two Towers.

Why would that be?

For me, they both suffer from the same problems: middle segment; no real 
beginning; no real ending; nothing much resolved; artificial end point created 
just to (temporarily) wrap things up. And they both include one really kick-ass 
battle sequence.

Discuss.
--Van

Sent from my iPad

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[Luke Jaconetti]

Ravenface, 

A few points.

First, I don't think it's fair to say that "you're the reason they reboot Spider-Man every three years."  The first Sony Spider-Man film came out in 2002, so it's been a decade since the series started.  And we all know the rationale for the reboot, and it has nothing to do with what fans want.  It has everything to do with money going into Sony's coffers instead of Marvel's.  I understand your point but I don't think it's a valid criticism in this case.

Secondly, I want to expand on your statement that "There weren't books lying around that told you the ending."  Empire Strikes Back was a sequel to an original film; we didn't know that it was going to be a trilogy.  We were not at the point yet where all series were "supposed" to be trilogies.  We didn't know that Empire was going to be a cliffhanger.  So it was a huge shock (I imagine) to see how it ended.  

LOTR was specifically an adaption.  A LOT of people knew where the story is going before we went into the theater.  I don't think it's a truly fair comparison.  To be apples to apples we should compare something like Empire Strikes Back and The Matrix Reloaded.  And that's no contest.

I watched Empire back around July 4 when Spike was showing the entire saga.  I really enjoyed it; it's just a well made movie in pretty much all respects.  I still like ROTJ better, but damn, it's a good movie.

The Two Towers has a fairly slow middle, but I find it to be an exciting, well made movie.  I have a hard time finding fault with it, either.

Caw!

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[rave...@aol.com]

I think... we are saying the exact same things. But, I think you've refined it a little more.

Matrix Reloaded is probably the perfect choice to compare it to. Though, to go with your very good point about the original audience not knowing Jedi was forthcoming, I think folks knew Matrix Three: The Rematrixing was coming before Reloaded was coughed out. BUT - that's because, as you also point out, ESB changed everything! Made trilogies the expected norm.

The Spider-Man example was... hyperbolic.

Caw!

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