In the zillion of messages posted here, I don't remember anyone
posted that list of 8 while some other discussed one specific
line. Or was that number of 8 also speculative ?
Denis
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0 Denis Beauregard
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oo oo par chaque departement avant 1825
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John Yohalem
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John.Y...@Metopera.org
"What this country needs is a good five-cent reverie" -- Paul Mellon
Denis Beauregard wrote in message <36ed7503...@NNTP.hip.cam.org>...
>I remember someone claimed that Charlemagne has only 8
>proven ancestors and any other is speculative.
>
>In the zillion of messages posted here, I don't remember anyone
>posted that list of 8 while some other discussed one specific
>line. Or was that number of 8 also speculative ?
That's absurd. Without speculating unduly, one can come to more than that:
1. Charlemagne
2. Pepin le Bref
3. Bertrada
4. Charles Martel
5. Chrotrud
6. Heribert Ct. of Laon (this one may be sketchy -- his ancestry is VERY
sketchy)
7. I forget, but she's mentioned in some accounts
8. Pippin of Heristal
9. Plectrude (concubine)
10. NN
11. NN
12. ?
13. NN
14. ?
15. NN
16. Ansegisal
17. Begga
18. Hugbert
32. Arnulf, Bishop of Metz
33. Oda
34. Pippin of Landen
That's more than eight right there, without getting into Ansegisal's descent
from Aeneas or Begga's from the Merovingians or any of that crap.
Jean Coeur de Lapin
I said something like this, but don't think the number was 8.
1.Charlemagne
1 2.Pepin
2 3.Bertrada
3 4.Charles Martel
4 5.Chrotrud
5 6.Charibert
6. 8.Pepin
7. 9.Alpais
8. 11.Bertrada
9. 16.Ansegisel
10. 17.Begga
11. 32.Arnulf
12. 33.(I don't recall her name, but it is known)
13. 34.Pepin
14. 35.Itta
So 14.
taf
>Denis Beauregard wrote:
>>
>> I remember someone claimed that Charlemagne has only 8
>> proven ancestors and any other is speculative.
>>
>> In the zillion of messages posted here, I don't remember anyone
>> posted that list of 8 while some other discussed one specific
>> line. Or was that number of 8 also speculative ?
>
>I said something like this, but don't think the number was 8.
+ list of Todd
- list of Jean Coeur de Lapin (see other post)
> 1.Charlemagne
> 2.Pepin
> 3.Bertrada
> 4.Charles Martel
> 5.Chrotrud
+> 6.Charibert
-6. Heribert
-7. I forget, but she's mentioned in some accounts
> 8.Pepin
+>. 9.Alpais
-9. Plectrude (concubine)
+> 11.Bertrada
>. 16.Ansegisel
>. 17.Begga
-18. Hugbert
>. 32.Arnulf
>. 33.(I don't recall her name, but it is known)
<-33. Oda
>. 34.Pepin
->. 35.Itta
>
>So 14.
Both lists:
> 2.Pepin
> 3.Bertrada
> 4.Charles Martel
> 5.Chrotrud
> 8.Pepin
>. 16.Ansegisel
>. 17.Begga
>. 32.Arnulf
>. 34.Pepin
That is 9... not far from 8 :-)
These are variant forms of the same name.
> -7. I forget, but she's mentioned in some accounts
Sometimes this is incorrectly given as Bertrada, in confusion with
Charibert's mother. She remains unknown.
> > 8.Pepin
> +>. 9.Alpais
> -9. Plectrude (concubine)
This confuses his wife Plectrude with his concubine Alpais. It was the
latter who was mother of Martel.
> +> 11.Bertrada
> >. 16.Ansegisel
> >. 17.Begga
> -18. Hugbert
This requires more discussion. First, as #18, he doesn't belong here.
One theory makes him the father of Plectrude, but Plectrude was not
mother of Charles Martel. Don't cross him off yet, though. Plectrude
was sister of 11. Bertrada, and thus we need to discuss it. Hugobert is
clearly the preferred theory these days, but Chaume suggested a
Merovingian connection (posted here a couple of days ago). Thus while
he is the most likely candidate for Bertrada's (and Plectrude's) father,
he cannot be considered 'known'. (OK, now you can cross him off.)
> >. 32.Arnulf
> >. 33.(I don't recall her name, but it is known)
> <-33. Oda
This seems slightly off. Doda? perhaps. I will look it up.
I stick by my 14.
taf