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spin maximizes the Ampere law that makes the Inert Gases Chapt13.4.03 Charge and spin #1023 New Physics #1143 ATOM TOTALITY 5th ed
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Archimedes Plutonium
Nov 22, 2012, 3:20:52 PM11/22/12
to
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On Nov 22, 8:21 am, Timothy Sutter <a202...@lycos.com-> wrote:
> > > and, it really does seem as if
> > > the little whizzers =DO= -have- "flight paths"
> > > and that they are -not- simply in
> > > 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000
> > > places at the same time....
> > just look at these images...
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Various_Spirograph_Designs.jpg
> > see, you don't just see the cloud of uncertainty
> > you see distinctly flight paths...
>
> the thing about the spirograph images is that they are =flat=
>
> and the atom travails in -volume- and so, 3D images
>
> and you really would wonder if the shapes of snowflakes -are-
>
> sort of like the shapes of certain electronic flight paths...
>
> "but isn't i true that no two snowflakes are alike?"
>
> have you really looked at all of them?
>
> STOP
Hi Tim, I will stop for 3d volume.
It has been a long time since I took apart an electric motor of its
windings of copper wire.
Tell me, are the windings close to being spherical in all? And are the
windings of 1 long copper wire or are they of 2 long copper wires or
more?
I am thinking that we may have the electric motor duplicating the act
of 2 electrons sharing a suborbital. The two may imitate one another.
Tim, do you have an electric motor close by that you can disassemble?
Google's New-Newsgroups censors AP posts and halted a proper
archiving of author, but Drexel's Math Forum does not and my posts
in archive form is seen here: http://mathforum.org/kb/profile.jspa?userID=499986
Archimedes Plutonium
http://www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies
> > > and, it really does seem as if
> > > the little whizzers =DO= -have- "flight paths"
> > > and that they are -not- simply in
> > > 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000
> > > places at the same time....
> > just look at these images...
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Various_Spirograph_Designs.jpg
> > see, you don't just see the cloud of uncertainty
> > you see distinctly flight paths...
>
> the thing about the spirograph images is that they are =flat=
>
> and the atom travails in -volume- and so, 3D images
>
> and you really would wonder if the shapes of snowflakes -are-
>
> sort of like the shapes of certain electronic flight paths...
>
> "but isn't i true that no two snowflakes are alike?"
>
> have you really looked at all of them?
>
> STOP
Hi Tim, I will stop for 3d volume.
It has been a long time since I took apart an electric motor of its
windings of copper wire.
Tell me, are the windings close to being spherical in all? And are the
windings of 1 long copper wire or are they of 2 long copper wires or
more?
I am thinking that we may have the electric motor duplicating the act
of 2 electrons sharing a suborbital. The two may imitate one another.
Tim, do you have an electric motor close by that you can disassemble?
Google's New-Newsgroups censors AP posts and halted a proper
archiving of author, but Drexel's Math Forum does not and my posts
in archive form is seen here: http://mathforum.org/kb/profile.jspa?userID=499986
Archimedes Plutonium
http://www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies
Archimedes Plutonium
Nov 22, 2012, 3:44:32 PM11/22/12
to
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On Nov 22, 2:20 pm, Archimedes Plutonium
<plutonium.archime...@gmail.com> wrote:
(snipped)
cylinder shaped and the wires look to be as parallel as possible. So
is that one wire wound around or is it many separate wires wound
around?
I need to see how Ampere's law that parallel currents attract one
another is obeyed by the rotor of an electric motor.
Can you dissemble a old electric motor at your place Tim? I need to
find out if we can have a spherical shape instead of cylindrical and
whether the wires are in parallel.
<plutonium.archime...@gmail.com> wrote:
(snipped)
>
> Hi Tim, I will stop for 3d volume.
>
> It has been a long time since I took apart an electric motor of its
> windings of copper wire.
>
> Tell me, are the windings close to being spherical in all? And are the
> windings of 1 long copper wire or are they of 2 long copper wires or
> more?
>
> I am thinking that we may have the electric motor duplicating the act
> of 2 electrons sharing a suborbital. The two may imitate one another.
>
> Tim, do you have an electric motor close by that you can disassemble?
>
Hi, Tim, now the rotor that is displayed in Wikipedia looks to be
> Hi Tim, I will stop for 3d volume.
>
> It has been a long time since I took apart an electric motor of its
> windings of copper wire.
>
> Tell me, are the windings close to being spherical in all? And are the
> windings of 1 long copper wire or are they of 2 long copper wires or
> more?
>
> I am thinking that we may have the electric motor duplicating the act
> of 2 electrons sharing a suborbital. The two may imitate one another.
>
> Tim, do you have an electric motor close by that you can disassemble?
>
cylinder shaped and the wires look to be as parallel as possible. So
is that one wire wound around or is it many separate wires wound
around?
I need to see how Ampere's law that parallel currents attract one
another is obeyed by the rotor of an electric motor.
Can you dissemble a old electric motor at your place Tim? I need to
find out if we can have a spherical shape instead of cylindrical and
whether the wires are in parallel.
Timothy Sutter
Nov 22, 2012, 3:59:20 PM11/22/12
to
Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
> Timothy Sutter wrote:
> > > > and, it really does seem as if
> > > > the little whizzers =DO= -have- "flight paths"
> > > > and that they are -not- simply in
> > > > 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000
> > > > places at the same time....
> > > just look at these images...
> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Various_Spirograph_Designs.jpg
> > > see, you don't just see the cloud of uncertainty
> > > you see distinctly flight paths...
> > the thing about the spirograph images is that they are =flat=
> > and the atom travails in -volume- and so, 3D images
> > and you really would wonder if the shapes of snowflakes -are-
> > sort of like the shapes of certain electronic flight paths...
> > "but isn't i true that no two snowflakes are alike?"
> > have you really looked at all of them?
> > STOP
> Hi Tim, I will stop for 3d volume.
> It has been a long time since I took apart an electric motor of its
> windings of copper wire.
> Tell me, are the windings close to being spherical in all? And are the
> windings of 1 long copper wire or are they of 2 long copper wires or
> more?
i just happen to have the motor of
an olde box window fan in the basement.
it's a lot of copper wire and these things called
"bushings" that seem to be copper as well.
it doesn't look too much like this one
but it resembles it a little bit.
http://scootersupport.com/motor7.jpg
http://scootersupport.com/motorrewind.htm
> I am thinking that we may have the electric motor duplicating the act
> of 2 electrons sharing a suborbital. The two may imitate one another.
> Tim, do you have an electric motor close by that you can disassemble?
i'll dwell on it for a moment
> Timothy Sutter wrote:
> > > > and, it really does seem as if
> > > > the little whizzers =DO= -have- "flight paths"
> > > > and that they are -not- simply in
> > > > 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000
> > > > places at the same time....
> > > just look at these images...
> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Various_Spirograph_Designs.jpg
> > > see, you don't just see the cloud of uncertainty
> > > you see distinctly flight paths...
> > the thing about the spirograph images is that they are =flat=
> > and the atom travails in -volume- and so, 3D images
> > and you really would wonder if the shapes of snowflakes -are-
> > sort of like the shapes of certain electronic flight paths...
> > "but isn't i true that no two snowflakes are alike?"
> > have you really looked at all of them?
> > STOP
> Hi Tim, I will stop for 3d volume.
> It has been a long time since I took apart an electric motor of its
> windings of copper wire.
> Tell me, are the windings close to being spherical in all? And are the
> windings of 1 long copper wire or are they of 2 long copper wires or
> more?
an olde box window fan in the basement.
it's a lot of copper wire and these things called
"bushings" that seem to be copper as well.
it doesn't look too much like this one
but it resembles it a little bit.
http://scootersupport.com/motor7.jpg
http://scootersupport.com/motorrewind.htm
> I am thinking that we may have the electric motor duplicating the act
> of 2 electrons sharing a suborbital. The two may imitate one another.
> Tim, do you have an electric motor close by that you can disassemble?
Don Kelly
Nov 22, 2012, 8:56:27 PM11/22/12
to
Such a motor will have no commutator as shown in your permanent magnet
DC motor (it also will not have permanent magnets and the rotor will be
quite different in general). The "bushings" are "oilite (sic?)" bearings
which are typically copper or a copper alloy which is sintered and holds
oil. They are cheaper than ball bearings but don't generally last as
well.. However, these bushings have nothing to do with the
electrical/magnetic operation of the motor.
As for Archie's question- No- the windings are not spherical at all.
As usual he is off in his own little world -where facts are not important.
--
Don Kelly
cross out to reply
Timothy Sutter
Nov 22, 2012, 10:49:06 PM11/22/12
to
but had a little bit of similarity, and, i still say that now.
my new fan has a fairly small motor with a diameter
of about 5 inches and no exposed copper, but my
old fan motor was larger and you could see blobs
of copper wiring -somewhat- like that scooter motor.
just seeing the copper coils is a similarity.
> The "bushings" are "oilite (sic?)" bearings which are
> typically copper or a copper alloy which is sintered and holds oil.
front end where you had to oil every so often.
> They are cheaper than ball bearings but don't generally last as
> well.. However, these bushings have nothing to do with the
> electrical/magnetic operation of the motor.
and would crud up after a while and you'd have
to clean up the crud.
maybe i'll dig it out and take it apart unless
i already disposed of it in an enVIromentally safe manner.
> As for Archie's question- No- the windings are not spherical at all.
i have an olde starter motor that may be a -little- bit more
like the scooter motor, but i'm, not in the mood to take
it apart right now, as, it is greasy and secure where
it is on its little shelf.
> As usual he is off in his own little world -where facts are not important.
Pluto doesn't exactly tell me what sort of motor
i have and then tell me how it's constructed.
maybe you should wait until Pluto actually says that
such coils are, in fact, spherical before you tell me
or anyone else that Pluto actually claims they are
spherical and that this is true only in Pluto's
little world of make-believe.
i didn't exactly hear Pluto say that electrical
motor coils were always or even ever spherical.
do -you- believe that the electron is sometimes
composed of 10^40 tiny slivers assembled
in a dot cloud?
do you think that, if, Archimedes Plutonium said
that all electrons were green and smelled like watermelon
that Archimedes Plutonium's postings should be banished
to the land of wind and ghosts even if,
in some way, such a statement,
accompanied by an extensive treatise of apparent support,
could be construed as being physical and electromagnetic
and mathematical and even chemical as far as topicallity
is concerned, or do you demand that such extensive treatises..
oh, nevermind, i can see that you people don't like Pluto
but you'd think Pluto cursed your mutha the way some
of you people carry on about Pluto's posting habits.
i, personaly, don't think that the electron is ever in
10000000000000000000000000000000000000000 pieces,
but i'm not going to lose any sleep knowing that
Pluto claims it does.
even if you started telling me ;
"oh, actually, that's where i agree with Archimedes Plutonium"
i'd still be happy enough calling an electron a "lepton"
but, there are plenty of "scientists" that
falsely induce opinion in to "fact"
and not enough other "scientists" seem to buck the trend...
so, why balk at Pluto and not at some of these other fables?
Don Kelly
Nov 24, 2012, 1:10:41 AM11/24/12
to
too will have coils.
>
> just seeing the copper coils is a similarity.
Yes- there is a similarity- the same as the similarity to a solenoid and
> just seeing the copper coils is a similarity.
a transformer. seeing copper coils in a transformer
>
>
>> The "bushings" are "oilite (sic?)" bearings which are
>> typically copper or a copper alloy which is sintered and holds oil.
>
> my old fan may have had this little felt tipped
> front end where you had to oil every so often.
That figures.
>
>> The "bushings" are "oilite (sic?)" bearings which are
>> typically copper or a copper alloy which is sintered and holds oil.
>
> my old fan may have had this little felt tipped
> front end where you had to oil every so often.
>
>> They are cheaper than ball bearings but don't generally last as
>> well.. However, these bushings have nothing to do with the
>> electrical/magnetic operation of the motor.
>
> it's possible that these old bushings were carbon
> and would crud up after a while and you'd have
> to clean up the crud.
Doubtful. However graphite has been used as a lubricant. Sintered bronze
>> They are cheaper than ball bearings but don't generally last as
>> well.. However, these bushings have nothing to do with the
>> electrical/magnetic operation of the motor.
>
> it's possible that these old bushings were carbon
> and would crud up after a while and you'd have
> to clean up the crud.
is common.
>
> maybe i'll dig it out and take it apart unless
> i already disposed of it in an enVIromentally safe manner.
>
>> As for Archie's question- No- the windings are not spherical at all.
>
> no, many coils are sort of round or cylindrical and not spheres.
> i have an olde starter motor that may be a -little- bit more
> like the scooter motor, but i'm, not in the mood to take
> it apart right now, as, it is greasy and secure where
> it is on its little shelf.
Cylindrical is common and practical."sort of round" is meaningless.
> maybe i'll dig it out and take it apart unless
> i already disposed of it in an enVIromentally safe manner.
>
>> As for Archie's question- No- the windings are not spherical at all.
>
> no, many coils are sort of round or cylindrical and not spheres.
> i have an olde starter motor that may be a -little- bit more
> like the scooter motor, but i'm, not in the mood to take
> it apart right now, as, it is greasy and secure where
> it is on its little shelf.
>
>
>> As usual he is off in his own little world -where facts are not important.
>
>
> well, yon Pluto does -ask- if the windings are spherical
> Pluto doesn't exactly tell me what sort of motor
> i have and then tell me how it's constructed.
Fan- typically 120V (240V in UK) -assumed not to be a new fan (you said
old(e)) so what is typical? A form of small induction motor-with coils
on the stator. If it is a DC motor, then the construction will be
essentially the same as the scooter motor with coils on the rotor and a
commutator. The presence of a commutator is a give-away.
>
-----rant snipped------
Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
Nov 24, 2012, 2:58:23 AM11/24/12
to
"Don Kelly" wrote in message news:ExZrs.12238$nO.1...@newsfe29.iad...
======================================================
If DC then even 30 years old it'll be brushless, floppy drives have come
and gone long ago, Don.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Floppy_drive_spindle_motor_open.jpg
The fan on my computer is variable speed, it speeds up if the processor
gets hot and slows to reduce noise.
It's difficult to imagine any young engineer designing a commutator in
2012 or any entrepreneur investing in one when it can be made on a chip.
I have a TV on a dongle and if you want power just look at the microwave
oven, it's a low to high frequency converter at over one horsepower.
-- This message is brought to you from the keyboard of
Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
If DC then even 30 years old it'll be brushless, floppy drives have come
and gone long ago, Don.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Floppy_drive_spindle_motor_open.jpg
The fan on my computer is variable speed, it speeds up if the processor
gets hot and slows to reduce noise.
It's difficult to imagine any young engineer designing a commutator in
2012 or any entrepreneur investing in one when it can be made on a chip.
I have a TV on a dongle and if you want power just look at the microwave
oven, it's a low to high frequency converter at over one horsepower.
-- This message is brought to you from the keyboard of
Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
Timothy Sutter
Nov 24, 2012, 5:33:10 AM11/24/12
to
> > just seeing the copper coils is a similarity.
> Yes- there is a similarity- the same as the similarity to a solenoid and
> a transformer. seeing copper coils in a transformer
> >> The "bushings" are "oilite (sic?)" bearings which are
> >> typically copper or a copper alloy which is sintered and holds oil.
> > my old fan may have had this little felt tipped
> > front end where you had to oil every so often.
> That figures.
> >> They are cheaper than ball bearings but don't generally last as
> >> well.. However, these bushings have nothing to do with the
> >> electrical/magnetic operation of the motor.
> > it's possible that these old bushings were carbon
> > and would crud up after a while and you'd have
> > to clean up the crud.
> Doubtful. However graphite has been used as a lubricant. Sintered bronze
> is common.
> > maybe i'll dig it out and take it apart unless
> > i already disposed of it in an enVIromentally safe manner.
> >> As for Archie's question- No- the windings are not spherical at all.
> > no, many coils are sort of round or cylindrical and not spheres.
> > i have an olde starter motor that may be a -little- bit more
> > like the scooter motor, but i'm, not in the mood to take
> > it apart right now, as, it is greasy and secure where
> > it is on its little shelf.
> Cylindrical is common and practical."sort of round" is meaningless.
the diameter, i don't get a consistent several inches i get a variety
of responses for the radii plus or minus about a half an inch.
the coiling part has noticeable eccentricities but it is sort of round.
> >> As usual he is off in his own little world -where facts are not important.
> > well, yon Pluto does -ask- if the windings are spherical
> > Pluto doesn't exactly tell me what sort of motor
> > i have and then tell me how it's constructed.
> If I am wrong- let me know.
self lubricating with "oilite" type bushings, it was not.
like i said, my old fan was somewhat peculiar.
you may be a bit like Archimedes Pluto, at least, you didn't say;
"no, your fan could not possibly have
been one that needed to be oiled."
but, more importantly, in this case, you are wrong about Pluto.
you said Pluto was off in [his] own little world where facts
mean nothing simply because [he] asked me if the copper windings
in my motor coil was close to being spherical.
here's what Pluto said;
====
Tell me, are the windings close to being spherical in all?
====
and then you say;
===
As usual he is off in his own little world -where facts are not
important.
===
important.
so, this is the sort of question and answer period here;
AP: "are the copper windings in your motor close to being spherical?"
DK: ""as usual, you're off in your own little world
where facts mean nothing""
and here's how Pluto modiifes [his] response;
===
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.chem/6nkMLledbMw/ZaQp6nxBkKAJ
Now I had to be sure that no electric motor or rotor thereof was a
sphere shaped wire loop. Now I am not saying such a object cannot
exist or is nonexistent. I am saying that the basic principle of an
electric motor is based on the cylinder shape.
===
see, Pluto doesn't say;
"thanks, tim, for your response, but electric motor rotors are
spherical,
i just know it to be true here in my own little world."
you simply accuse...
if you look in to it, you may very well find
that Pluto simply accuses at times.
so, you and Pluto are similar in that regard.
< -----rant snipped------
Don Kelly
Nov 24, 2012, 8:40:55 PM11/24/12
to
To me, a box fan is a fan, run from a 60Hz 120/240V system or a 50Hz
240V system, which is in a square enclosure and is used for room
cooling. Many are portable and will have shaded pole induction motors
and have some speed control (3 settings typically) which may simply be
switching steps on an autotransformer or by control of a triac. These
are cheap and reliable- although bearings can be a problem. This is what
I assumed that he was looking at and trying to compare to a commutator
motor.
I would use "case fan" for the ones used in a computer and, yes, these
are 'brushless DC' with electronic commutation of what is essentially an
AC synchronous machine or a stepper. My comments did not refer to these
but the resemblance that was mentioned is only that all have windings.
As to the conventional commutator machine- these are still in use and
are dying out as better power electronic switching makes it possible to
eliminate the mechanical commutator which limits the practical upper
size of DC machines and is a major maintenance problem.
I do note that they are still in use in many applications -e.g. the
series DC motor used as a car starter- where the inherent behaviour is
preferable.
I also note that large inverter drives supply AC machines- mostly
induction machines.
I am also quite prepared to say that I don't actually know what kind of
fan and wha was its use -so that I just referred to what I call a "box
fan" as above.
Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
Nov 24, 2012, 9:35:07 PM11/24/12
to
"Don Kelly" wrote in message news:LGess.24063$Sm5....@newsfe25.iad...
====================================================
Ok, we are almost completely in agreement.
I've never come across a triac or autotransformer controlled induction
motor though. That would be like trying to control a fluorescent lamp.
Multi-speed ceiling fans with induction motors have two windings,
one of which can be switch configured as a 4-pole or 8-pole (2-pole
is much too fast for a ceiling fan) and the other a 12-pole in a
24-slot stator.
What has really made today's speed control possible is permanent
magnet technology with modern alloys. No need for the old Ward
Leonard system, some still used on old elevators.
What I've not been able to discover is the speed control of trains on
750V DC third rail, they sound like they have gear boxes. Maybe its to
reduce starting current.
Ok, we are almost completely in agreement.
I've never come across a triac or autotransformer controlled induction
motor though. That would be like trying to control a fluorescent lamp.
Multi-speed ceiling fans with induction motors have two windings,
one of which can be switch configured as a 4-pole or 8-pole (2-pole
is much too fast for a ceiling fan) and the other a 12-pole in a
24-slot stator.
What has really made today's speed control possible is permanent
magnet technology with modern alloys. No need for the old Ward
Leonard system, some still used on old elevators.
What I've not been able to discover is the speed control of trains on
750V DC third rail, they sound like they have gear boxes. Maybe its to
reduce starting current.
Don Kelly
Nov 24, 2012, 9:58:07 PM11/24/12
to
to have salient poles on both rotor and stator. Is the winding on the
stator and the longer poles on the rotor. How old was it and roughly
what were the dimensions?
My statements were based on what I call a box fan
>
>>>> As usual he is off in his own little world -where facts are not important.
>
>>> well, yon Pluto does -ask- if the windings are spherical
>>> Pluto doesn't exactly tell me what sort of motor
>>> i have and then tell me how it's constructed.
>
>> If I am wrong- let me know.
>
>
> for one, your description of my fan claimed it was
> self lubricating with "oilite" type bushings, it was not.
did the bushings look like bronze tubes?
>>>> As usual he is off in his own little world -where facts are not important.
>
>>> well, yon Pluto does -ask- if the windings are spherical
>>> Pluto doesn't exactly tell me what sort of motor
>>> i have and then tell me how it's constructed.
>
>> If I am wrong- let me know.
>
>
> for one, your description of my fan claimed it was
> self lubricating with "oilite" type bushings, it was not.
recognize facts opposed to his hypotheses.
In this case he claims that the "basic principle of an electric motor is
based on the cylinder shape".
Why? This is nonsense!
The basic principle of a motor is the physics involved (Faraday/Maxwell,
Conservation of energy, Lorentz,etc).
A cylinder shape is often used for practical reasons- but it is NOT a
"basic principle" Some motors are flat disc rotating in a field which is
in the direction of the axis of the disc (i.e. a KWH meter or a printed
circuit motor). Some are linear motors-nothing resembling a cylinder
(high speed mag-lev trains, linear actuators,etc). Shape is dictated by
efficient and effective design for the purpose. Compare the shape of a
Gramme Ring DC machine to Edison's early motors and generators to newer
machines of essentially the same type- shape evolves but the basic
physics involved is still the same.
There is my rant and the end of it for me.
Don Kelly
Nov 24, 2012, 10:37:29 PM11/24/12
to
control for which there is no coil switching. I had one which I had to
take apart to get at the bushings and soak them in oil -got an extra
year out of it- and it is definitely a shaded pole motor with no coil
switching. I didn't take apart the control section in the stand but I
would expect something involving a small autotransformer with taps or a
triac. I have a small blower in a fireplace that has a similar motor and
I installed a triac dimmer rated for motor loads and this works well. I
can set a lower voltage limit so that it won't stall. An exhaust fan
over the stove is similar. I expect that the R/X ratio of the motor is
such that the peak torque is near standstill.
> What has really made today's speed control possible is permanent
> magnet technology with modern alloys. No need for the old Ward
> Leonard system, some still used on old elevators.
motors-but the real speed control is due to the inverters providing
variable frequency to (typically) induction motors which do not have
magnets. The brushless DC motors are essentially permanent magnet
machines with switched poles and are inherently AC synchronous machines
except for the discrete switching causing a rotating field rather than a
polyphase rotating field.
The Ward Leonard scheme was really pre-power electronics and other
schemes were used for AC machines. Early power electronics really
started with Mercury arc rectifiers/inverters- I recall a late 1940's
5KW unit in a case about 6ft high and 2.5 ft x2.5 ft cross section with
a transformer in the lower part and a glass octopus up top - pretty to
watch the arc dancing over the cathode pool- and it worked.
In my mind, the development of SCR's etc is what made the revolution in
speed control in that the ability to control speed became practical and
economical.
> What I've not been able to discover is the speed control of trains on
> 750V DC third rail, they sound like they have gear boxes. Maybe its to
> reduce starting current.
http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Rolling%20Stock.htm
"Series-parallel traction control using resistances was standard up to
the 1990s. Resistance switching is achieved by the use of cam-operated
contactors, the camshaft being driven by an air-operated, oil-damped
engine. This system is known as the PCM (Pneumatic Camshaft Mechanism).
All stocks so fitted use camshafts on each motor car, except for the
1967/72 tube stocks and C surface stocks which use a separate camshaft
for series and parallel notching. The two camshaft system was
introduced because of the more complex equipment required for rheostatic
braking, which was introduced to Underground rolling stock at the same
time. A larger single camshaft is used on the motoring and braking
circuits of stock built since 1973. The 1992 and 1996 tube stocks have
modern electronically controlled power systems known as chopper control
and the 1995 Tube Stock has IGBT traction control. The 1995-6 stocks
use 3-phase AC traction motors."
It is likely that the 750V DC hasn't changes but the motors and their
controllers have changed from the series resistance with series or
heavily compounded motors at 750VDC to inverters and induction motors.
Starting current would be limited electronically- to get a soft start.
A recording of a train entering Baker St. station and departing sounds
to me like all electric control. However, the only tube cars I rode on
were between terminals at Heathrow and worry about catching my plane to
Canada overrode any listening to the sound. Startup was very smooth
which fits the soft start, constant torque and current run up to speed.
>
> -- This message is brought to you from the keyboard of
> Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
>
Timothy Sutter
Nov 25, 2012, 4:15:23 AM11/25/12
to
Don Kelly wrote:
> There is my rant and the end of it for me.
V = IR
> There is my rant and the end of it for me.
Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
Nov 25, 2012, 6:02:47 AM11/25/12
to
"Don Kelly" wrote in message news:1ogss.6280$Mm3....@newsfe26.iad...
======================================================
Triacs should only be used when the load is resistive.
At standstill (say you lock the shaft of a squirrel cage induction motor)
one can view the stator as the primary of a transformer and the rotor
as the secondary with a shorted turn. That is max torque. As the rotor
accelerates the difference between the rotor RPM and field RPM of the
stator (known as the slip frequency) gradually reduces to zero at
synchronous speed and the torque vanishes, the motor is then just
an inductive load like a transformer with no load on the secondary.
I can't imagine why anyone would want a variable speed fan in a
stove hood.
> What has really made today's speed control possible is permanent
> magnet technology with modern alloys. No need for the old Ward
> Leonard system, some still used on old elevators.
Permanent magnets do simply replace the old wound fields in the
motors-but the real speed control is due to the inverters providing
variable frequency to (typically) induction motors which do not have
magnets.
=====================================================
I do not agree. An induction motor without a permanent magnet cannot
be synchronous, it has to slip and the slip is load dependent. That's not
speed control.
The brushless DC motors are essentially permanent magnet
machines with switched poles and are inherently AC synchronous machines
except for the discrete switching causing a rotating field rather than a
polyphase rotating field.
=========================================================
Quite so, the DC is electronically steered to the stator coils to produce a
rotating field, we agree on that.
The Ward Leonard scheme was really pre-power electronics and other
schemes were used for AC machines. Early power electronics really
started with Mercury arc rectifiers/inverters- I recall a late 1940's
5KW unit in a case about 6ft high and 2.5 ft x2.5 ft cross section with
a transformer in the lower part and a glass octopus up top - pretty to
watch the arc dancing over the cathode pool- and it worked.
=======================================================
I saw the same used for welding in Chatham Dockyard, portable by
being mounted in a panel van.
In my mind, the development of SCR's etc is what made the revolution in
speed control in that the ability to control speed became practical and
economical.
============================================================
Yes, I recall the Swedish company Asea had a controller for a 500 HP
commutator motor running a plastics extruder. Six thyristors, each about
2 inches in diameter, steering 3 phase AC to the DC motor. The production
manager would tour the plant every morning at 9:00 am, pushing up the
speed, and I'd follow behind him slowing it down again. If I didn't the
300 amp fuses would pop and I'd have to change them and they were
bloody hot. He'd be hopping mad over an hours down-time, screaming
and hollering to get it back up again. He watched the speed, I watched
the current. He never realised I did more to keep his production going
than he did, although my motive was to save myself more work so that
I could study mathematics in the electrician's workshop. I was studying
for my bachelor's at the time and when I got it I was outta there.
The older extruders had hydraulic motors for speed control, they were
not my problem, but they did have mercury switches in the heaters.
Nasty, short circuit a heater and the switch would blow out before
the fuse leaving broken glass and pools of mercury in the cabinet.
=========================================================
That's the wimpy little Tube, I mean the mainline trains used by commuters
to and from London and the coast. You can hear a frequency smoothly
rise, suddenly drop and smoothly rise again, much like a car engine and
gear change. I haven't heard it on the more modern Javelin trains.
Triacs should only be used when the load is resistive.
At standstill (say you lock the shaft of a squirrel cage induction motor)
one can view the stator as the primary of a transformer and the rotor
as the secondary with a shorted turn. That is max torque. As the rotor
accelerates the difference between the rotor RPM and field RPM of the
stator (known as the slip frequency) gradually reduces to zero at
synchronous speed and the torque vanishes, the motor is then just
an inductive load like a transformer with no load on the secondary.
I can't imagine why anyone would want a variable speed fan in a
stove hood.
> What has really made today's speed control possible is permanent
> magnet technology with modern alloys. No need for the old Ward
> Leonard system, some still used on old elevators.
Permanent magnets do simply replace the old wound fields in the
motors-but the real speed control is due to the inverters providing
variable frequency to (typically) induction motors which do not have
magnets.
I do not agree. An induction motor without a permanent magnet cannot
be synchronous, it has to slip and the slip is load dependent. That's not
speed control.
The brushless DC motors are essentially permanent magnet
machines with switched poles and are inherently AC synchronous machines
except for the discrete switching causing a rotating field rather than a
polyphase rotating field.
Quite so, the DC is electronically steered to the stator coils to produce a
rotating field, we agree on that.
The Ward Leonard scheme was really pre-power electronics and other
schemes were used for AC machines. Early power electronics really
started with Mercury arc rectifiers/inverters- I recall a late 1940's
5KW unit in a case about 6ft high and 2.5 ft x2.5 ft cross section with
a transformer in the lower part and a glass octopus up top - pretty to
watch the arc dancing over the cathode pool- and it worked.
I saw the same used for welding in Chatham Dockyard, portable by
being mounted in a panel van.
In my mind, the development of SCR's etc is what made the revolution in
speed control in that the ability to control speed became practical and
economical.
Yes, I recall the Swedish company Asea had a controller for a 500 HP
commutator motor running a plastics extruder. Six thyristors, each about
2 inches in diameter, steering 3 phase AC to the DC motor. The production
manager would tour the plant every morning at 9:00 am, pushing up the
speed, and I'd follow behind him slowing it down again. If I didn't the
300 amp fuses would pop and I'd have to change them and they were
bloody hot. He'd be hopping mad over an hours down-time, screaming
and hollering to get it back up again. He watched the speed, I watched
the current. He never realised I did more to keep his production going
than he did, although my motive was to save myself more work so that
I could study mathematics in the electrician's workshop. I was studying
for my bachelor's at the time and when I got it I was outta there.
The older extruders had hydraulic motors for speed control, they were
not my problem, but they did have mercury switches in the heaters.
Nasty, short circuit a heater and the switch would blow out before
the fuse leaving broken glass and pools of mercury in the cabinet.
That's the wimpy little Tube, I mean the mainline trains used by commuters
to and from London and the coast. You can hear a frequency smoothly
rise, suddenly drop and smoothly rise again, much like a car engine and
gear change. I haven't heard it on the more modern Javelin trains.
Jos Bergervoet
Nov 25, 2012, 6:53:03 AM11/25/12
to
On 11/25/2012 12:02 PM, Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway wrote:
> "Don Kelly" wrote in message news:1ogss.6280$Mm3....@newsfe26.iad...
...
wrong with using a triac with an inductive load?
--
Jos
> "Don Kelly" wrote in message news:1ogss.6280$Mm3....@newsfe26.iad...
...
>> I installed a triac dimmer rated for motor loads and this works well. I
>> can set a lower voltage limit so that it won't stall. An exhaust fan
>> over the stove is similar. I expect that the R/X ratio of the motor is
>> such that the peak torque is near standstill.
>
>> can set a lower voltage limit so that it won't stall. An exhaust fan
>> over the stove is similar. I expect that the R/X ratio of the motor is
>> such that the peak torque is near standstill.
>
> Triacs should only be used when the load is resistive.
Enlighten us, O great Lord, why is this? What is
wrong with using a triac with an inductive load?
--
Jos
G=EMC^2
Nov 25, 2012, 7:41:16 AM11/25/12
to
On Nov 25, 6:03 am, "Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway"
<LordAndroc...@November2012.org> wrote:
> "Don Kelly" wrote in messagenews:1ogss.6280$Mm3....@newsfe26.iad...
> machines with switched poles and are inherently AC ...
>
> read more »
Imperial motors run on AC and DC. Electic motor is push and pull?.
The "linear induction motor gets pulled in a staight line. TeBet
<LordAndroc...@November2012.org> wrote:
> "Don Kelly" wrote in messagenews:1ogss.6280$Mm3....@newsfe26.iad...
>
> On 24/11/2012 6:35 PM, Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Don Kelly" wrote in messagenews:LGess.24063$Sm5....@newsfe25.iad...
> On 24/11/2012 6:35 PM, Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 23/11/2012 11:58 PM, Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway wrote:
> >> "Don Kelly" wrote in messagenews:ExZrs.12238$nO.1...@newsfe29.iad...
> > On 23/11/2012 11:58 PM, Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway wrote:
>
> read more »
Imperial motors run on AC and DC. Electic motor is push and pull?.
The "linear induction motor gets pulled in a staight line. TeBet
Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
Nov 25, 2012, 8:00:55 AM11/25/12
to
"Jos Bergervoet" wrote in message
news:50b206a0$0$6894$e4fe...@news2.news.xs4all.nl...
==============================================
You really don't know?
Attach a couple of hand-held electrodes across the capacitor/solenoid in
this buzzer circuit powered with a 9 Volt battery.
http://www.zen22142.zen.co.uk/Circuits/Alarm/buzzer.gif
Discard the capacitor and short circuit (discard) the speaker transformer so
that the only load is the relay coil.
Measure the voltage across the relay coil by grasping the electrodes. Hint:
It's not 9 volts.
-- This message is brought to you from the keyboard of
news:50b206a0$0$6894$e4fe...@news2.news.xs4all.nl...
You really don't know?
Attach a couple of hand-held electrodes across the capacitor/solenoid in
this buzzer circuit powered with a 9 Volt battery.
http://www.zen22142.zen.co.uk/Circuits/Alarm/buzzer.gif
Discard the capacitor and short circuit (discard) the speaker transformer so
that the only load is the relay coil.
Measure the voltage across the relay coil by grasping the electrodes. Hint:
It's not 9 volts.
-- This message is brought to you from the keyboard of
Jos Bergervoet
Nov 25, 2012, 1:30:26 PM11/25/12
to
On 11/25/2012 2:00 PM, Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway wrote:
> "Jos Bergervoet" wrote in message
> "Jos Bergervoet" wrote in message
>> ...
>>>> I installed a triac dimmer rated for motor loads and this works well. I
>>>> can set a lower voltage limit so that it won't stall. An exhaust fan
>>>> over the stove is similar. I expect that the R/X ratio of the motor is
>>>> such that the peak torque is near standstill.
>>>
>>> Triacs should only be used when the load is resistive.
>>
>> Enlighten us, O great Lord, why is this? What is
>> wrong with using a triac with an inductive load?
>
>>>> I installed a triac dimmer rated for motor loads and this works well. I
>>>> can set a lower voltage limit so that it won't stall. An exhaust fan
>>>> over the stove is similar. I expect that the R/X ratio of the motor is
>>>> such that the peak torque is near standstill.
>>>
>>> Triacs should only be used when the load is resistive.
>>
>> Enlighten us, O great Lord, why is this? What is
>> wrong with using a triac with an inductive load?
>
> You really don't know?
More than that, I know there actually *isn't*
anything wrong with it.
> Attach a couple of hand-held electrodes across the
> capacitor/solenoid in this buzzer circuit powered
a device that breaks the current in a circuit? A
triac never does that! I only switches on in an
active way. The current stops by its own alternating
behavior. Nothing that happens in the buzzer when it
breaks the contact has anything to do with a triac.
> with a 9 Volt battery.
--
Jos
Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
Nov 25, 2012, 2:17:58 PM11/25/12
to
"Jos Bergervoet" wrote in message
news:50b263c3$0$6929$e4fe...@news2.news.xs4all.nl...
Obviously you know all about reactive circuits and would happily
control a fluorescent light and its choke with a dimmer switch. I
leave you to carry on and wish you every success. Good luck.
Jos Bergervoet
Nov 25, 2012, 3:02:58 PM11/25/12
to
On 11/25/2012 8:17 PM, Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway wrote:
...
> and would happily control a fluorescent
> light and its choke with a dimmer switch.
I would certainly not try it *without* this
choke! And "its" choke is becoming a bit of
an anachronism, but perhaps not in your circles,
my Lord.
> I leave you to carry on and wish you every
> success. Good luck. .
You are very generous.. (as the Earls of Medway
have always been, from the very first one on!)
--
Jos
...
>>> Attach a couple of hand-held electrodes across the
>>> capacitor/solenoid in this buzzer circuit powered
>>
>> No, I will not. Why would I even be interested in
>> a device that breaks the current in a circuit? A
>> triac never does that! I only switches on in an
>> active way. The current stops by its own alternating
>> behavior. Nothing that happens in the buzzer when it
>> breaks the contact has anything to do with a triac.
>>
>>> with a 9 Volt battery.
>>
>> A 9 volt battery also has nothing to do with a triac.
>
>>> capacitor/solenoid in this buzzer circuit powered
>>
>> No, I will not. Why would I even be interested in
>> a device that breaks the current in a circuit? A
>> triac never does that! I only switches on in an
>> active way. The current stops by its own alternating
>> behavior. Nothing that happens in the buzzer when it
>> breaks the contact has anything to do with a triac.
>>
>>> with a 9 Volt battery.
>>
>> A 9 volt battery also has nothing to do with a triac.
>
> Obviously you know all about reactive circuits
Some things are indeed obvious, my dear Earl!
> and would happily control a fluorescent
> light and its choke with a dimmer switch.
choke! And "its" choke is becoming a bit of
an anachronism, but perhaps not in your circles,
my Lord.
> I leave you to carry on and wish you every
You are very generous.. (as the Earls of Medway
have always been, from the very first one on!)
--
Jos
Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
Nov 25, 2012, 7:20:34 PM11/25/12
to
"Jos Bergervoet" wrote in message
news:50b27972$0$6869$e4fe...@news2.news.xs4all.nl...
Happy now?
Good.
Fuck off.
*plonk*
-- This message is brought to you from the keyboard of
Don Kelly
Nov 25, 2012, 8:03:09 PM11/25/12
to
but the one I got is rated for motor loads. It was a bit more expensive
than the usual dimmer but I have had no problems.
Here is a circuit reference:
www.ie.itcr.ac.cr/rsoto/.../carga%20inductiva%20con%20triac.pdf
> At standstill (say you lock the shaft of a squirrel cage induction motor)
> one can view the stator as the primary of a transformer and the rotor
> as the secondary with a shorted turn. That is max torque.
equals the R/X ratio so that only with R/X=1 will the max torque be at
standstill. Most motors have an R/X in the order of 0.1
As the rotor
> accelerates the difference between the rotor RPM and field RPM of the
> stator (known as the slip frequency) gradually reduces to zero at
> synchronous speed and the torque vanishes, the motor is then just
> an inductive load like a transformer with no load on the secondary.
overcome mechanical losses. In a sense it is a transformer (and can be
modeled as such at any speed) and at synchronous speed all you have is
the exciting current which is of the order of half the full load
current-entirely reactive.
> I can't imagine why anyone would want a variable speed fan in a
> stove hood.
reduce noise.
>
>> What has really made today's speed control possible is permanent
>> magnet technology with modern alloys. No need for the old Ward
>> Leonard system, some still used on old elevators.
> Permanent magnets do simply replace the old wound fields in the
> motors-but the real speed control is due to the inverters providing
> variable frequency to (typically) induction motors which do not have
> magnets.
> =====================================================
> I do not agree. An induction motor without a permanent magnet cannot
> be synchronous, it has to slip and the slip is load dependent. That's not
> speed control.
True- an induction motor is not and never has been intended to operate
>> What has really made today's speed control possible is permanent
>> magnet technology with modern alloys. No need for the old Ward
>> Leonard system, some still used on old elevators.
> Permanent magnets do simply replace the old wound fields in the
> motors-but the real speed control is due to the inverters providing
> variable frequency to (typically) induction motors which do not have
> magnets.
> =====================================================
> I do not agree. An induction motor without a permanent magnet cannot
> be synchronous, it has to slip and the slip is load dependent. That's not
> speed control.
as a synchronous motor- but speed control by frequency changing is not a
new thing- what has made it reasonable is the advances in power electronics.
However- applying a variable frequency source to an induction motor is
an effective speed control- It is necessary to make the applied voltage
proportional to frequency in order to avoid saturation and limit
magnetizing and stator current to a safe value.
Here is a reference- one among many- I haven't checked the equations
used but on a cursory glance they appear OK - the manufacturer of these
controls is well established. other references also deal with this.
http://www.ab.com/support/abdrives/documentation/fb/1024.pdf
-DC? (series or compound?) AC?(induction or synchronous) individual axle
or wheel motors ala ASEA which don't favour gears)
OR
magic? (Potter or much better- discworld?):).
Don Kelly
Nov 25, 2012, 8:11:50 PM11/25/12
to
On 25/11/2012 3:02 AM, Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway wrote:>
such that the peak torque is near standstill.
>
> ======================================================
> Triacs should only be used when the load is resistive.
> At standstill (say you lock the shaft of a squirrel cage induction motor)
> one can view the stator as the primary of a transformer and the rotor
> as the secondary with a shorted turn. That is max torque. As the rotor
> accelerates the difference between the rotor RPM and field RPM of the
> stator (known as the slip frequency) gradually reduces to zero at
> synchronous speed and the torque vanishes, the motor is then just
> an inductive load like a transformer with no load on the secondary.
> I can't imagine why anyone would want a variable speed fan in a
> stove hood.
etc.
such that the peak torque is near standstill.
>
> ======================================================
> Triacs should only be used when the load is resistive.
> At standstill (say you lock the shaft of a squirrel cage induction motor)
> one can view the stator as the primary of a transformer and the rotor
> as the secondary with a shorted turn. That is max torque. As the rotor
> accelerates the difference between the rotor RPM and field RPM of the
> stator (known as the slip frequency) gradually reduces to zero at
> synchronous speed and the torque vanishes, the motor is then just
> an inductive load like a transformer with no load on the secondary.
> I can't imagine why anyone would want a variable speed fan in a
> stove hood.
I have responded under Re: motor control as this is the direction
that the discussion has gone.
Don Kelly
Nov 25, 2012, 8:15:56 PM11/25/12
to
Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
Nov 25, 2012, 10:09:15 PM11/25/12
to
"Don Kelly" wrote in message news:hdzss.13143$tm5....@newsfe08.iad...
=========================================================
Not Found
The requested URL /carga inductiva con triac.pdf was not found on this
server.
Apache/1.3.33 Server at www.ie.itcr.ac.cr Port 80
> At standstill (say you lock the shaft of a squirrel cage induction motor)
> one can view the stator as the primary of a transformer and the rotor
> as the secondary with a shorted turn. That is max torque.
Not necessarily- a rough estimate is that the slip at maximum torque
equals the R/X ratio so that only with R/X=1 will the max torque be at
standstill. Most motors have an R/X in the order of 0.1
As the rotor
> accelerates the difference between the rotor RPM and field RPM of the
> stator (known as the slip frequency) gradually reduces to zero at
> synchronous speed and the torque vanishes, the motor is then just
> an inductive load like a transformer with no load on the secondary.
It wont run at synchronous speed but must slip even at no load to
overcome mechanical losses. In a sense it is a transformer (and can be
modeled as such at any speed) and at synchronous speed all you have is
the exciting current which is of the order of half the full load
current-entirely reactive.
======================================================
Quite so, but reactive current is 90 degrees out of phase with the voltage
so no power is involved. In larger motors a capacitor is added to remove
the reactive current from the supply or additional losses will be incurred
in the resistive conductor leading to the motor.
Here a curious fact emerges.
Mechanical losses can be overcome by driving the shaft with an internal
combustion engine, removing slip, so we have a rotating field that an
iron rotor has synchronous speed with and no current is induced in the
rotor's squirrel cage. Opening the throttle on the gas engine, we again
have slip but in a negative sense, the rotor is faster than the rotating
field in the stator and we have a generator.
I say this is curious because one would not normally couple a squirrel
cage motor to an engine and expect it to generate. It shouldn't because
there is no excitation current and no magnetic field in a squirrel cage
rotor, so why should a voltage appear from the stator?
> I can't imagine why anyone would want a variable speed fan in a
> stove hood.
That is a typical option- but being able to lower speed slightly does
reduce noise.
======================================
So the chef can yell at the waiter, the dishwasher and the buss-boy
more effectively? You must dine at very expensive restaurants if they
can afford that luxury. :-)
>
>> What has really made today's speed control possible is permanent
>> magnet technology with modern alloys. No need for the old Ward
>> Leonard system, some still used on old elevators.
> Permanent magnets do simply replace the old wound fields in the
> motors-but the real speed control is due to the inverters providing
> variable frequency to (typically) induction motors which do not have
> magnets.
> =====================================================
> I do not agree. An induction motor without a permanent magnet cannot
> be synchronous, it has to slip and the slip is load dependent. That's not
> speed control.
True- an induction motor is not and never has been intended to operate
as a synchronous motor- but speed control by frequency changing is not a
new thing- what has made it reasonable is the advances in power electronics.
However- applying a variable frequency source to an induction motor is
an effective speed control- It is necessary to make the applied voltage
proportional to frequency in order to avoid saturation and limit
magnetizing and stator current to a safe value.
Here is a reference- one among many- I haven't checked the equations
used but on a cursory glance they appear OK - the manufacturer of these
controls is well established. other references also deal with this.
http://www.ab.com/support/abdrives/documentation/fb/1024.pdf
=======================================================
Good grief, look at that! I was just saying above about negative slip
being a generator and you produce an article on the subject.
When I was a young man there was a huge disparity in the cost of
energy, North Sea Gas was a new thing and the coal industry on
the decline, coal-fired power stations made electricity expensive and
natural gas cheap. Stoves and boilers working on coal gas were
converted to natural gas nationwide. I had a friend who subcontracted
to make specialised ornate street lights in a small workshop with
four employees , a painter, a welder and two assemblers. To cut
a long story short, I and a mechanic coupled a used Rolls-Royce
engine to a large 3-phase squirrel cage motor, welded a water jacket
on the engine's exhaust, ran the engine on natural gas, drove the
electricity meter backwards and used the engine's water temperature
to heat the workshop. We even used the motor to start the engine.
=====================================================
750V DC.
http://www.javelintrains.com/javelin99.jpg
The Javelins have both a third rail shoe and an overhead pantograph,
but this earlier stock has no pantograph. There is still no catenary supply
into London Bridge, Charing Cross or Victoria, the major commuter termini,
so third rail DC is still a must. The trouble with upgrading is it can't be
done all at once, trains must run still run on the old system as well as
the new. I do know from a train driver friend of mine that he was
pulling 3000 amps climbing out of Dover Priory and the train was
barely moving, and that was 40 years ago. Gears would solve that
problem, but I've never found out for certain if that was it. Oh well...
Not Found
The requested URL /carga inductiva con triac.pdf was not found on this
server.
Apache/1.3.33 Server at www.ie.itcr.ac.cr Port 80
> At standstill (say you lock the shaft of a squirrel cage induction motor)
> one can view the stator as the primary of a transformer and the rotor
> as the secondary with a shorted turn. That is max torque.
Not necessarily- a rough estimate is that the slip at maximum torque
equals the R/X ratio so that only with R/X=1 will the max torque be at
standstill. Most motors have an R/X in the order of 0.1
As the rotor
> accelerates the difference between the rotor RPM and field RPM of the
> stator (known as the slip frequency) gradually reduces to zero at
> synchronous speed and the torque vanishes, the motor is then just
> an inductive load like a transformer with no load on the secondary.
It wont run at synchronous speed but must slip even at no load to
overcome mechanical losses. In a sense it is a transformer (and can be
modeled as such at any speed) and at synchronous speed all you have is
the exciting current which is of the order of half the full load
current-entirely reactive.
Quite so, but reactive current is 90 degrees out of phase with the voltage
so no power is involved. In larger motors a capacitor is added to remove
the reactive current from the supply or additional losses will be incurred
in the resistive conductor leading to the motor.
Here a curious fact emerges.
Mechanical losses can be overcome by driving the shaft with an internal
combustion engine, removing slip, so we have a rotating field that an
iron rotor has synchronous speed with and no current is induced in the
rotor's squirrel cage. Opening the throttle on the gas engine, we again
have slip but in a negative sense, the rotor is faster than the rotating
field in the stator and we have a generator.
I say this is curious because one would not normally couple a squirrel
cage motor to an engine and expect it to generate. It shouldn't because
there is no excitation current and no magnetic field in a squirrel cage
rotor, so why should a voltage appear from the stator?
> I can't imagine why anyone would want a variable speed fan in a
> stove hood.
That is a typical option- but being able to lower speed slightly does
reduce noise.
So the chef can yell at the waiter, the dishwasher and the buss-boy
more effectively? You must dine at very expensive restaurants if they
can afford that luxury. :-)
>
>> What has really made today's speed control possible is permanent
>> magnet technology with modern alloys. No need for the old Ward
>> Leonard system, some still used on old elevators.
> Permanent magnets do simply replace the old wound fields in the
> motors-but the real speed control is due to the inverters providing
> variable frequency to (typically) induction motors which do not have
> magnets.
> =====================================================
> I do not agree. An induction motor without a permanent magnet cannot
> be synchronous, it has to slip and the slip is load dependent. That's not
> speed control.
True- an induction motor is not and never has been intended to operate
as a synchronous motor- but speed control by frequency changing is not a
new thing- what has made it reasonable is the advances in power electronics.
However- applying a variable frequency source to an induction motor is
an effective speed control- It is necessary to make the applied voltage
proportional to frequency in order to avoid saturation and limit
magnetizing and stator current to a safe value.
Here is a reference- one among many- I haven't checked the equations
used but on a cursory glance they appear OK - the manufacturer of these
controls is well established. other references also deal with this.
http://www.ab.com/support/abdrives/documentation/fb/1024.pdf
Good grief, look at that! I was just saying above about negative slip
being a generator and you produce an article on the subject.
When I was a young man there was a huge disparity in the cost of
energy, North Sea Gas was a new thing and the coal industry on
the decline, coal-fired power stations made electricity expensive and
natural gas cheap. Stoves and boilers working on coal gas were
converted to natural gas nationwide. I had a friend who subcontracted
to make specialised ornate street lights in a small workshop with
four employees , a painter, a welder and two assemblers. To cut
a long story short, I and a mechanic coupled a used Rolls-Royce
engine to a large 3-phase squirrel cage motor, welded a water jacket
on the engine's exhaust, ran the engine on natural gas, drove the
electricity meter backwards and used the engine's water temperature
to heat the workshop. We even used the motor to start the engine.
750V DC.
http://www.javelintrains.com/javelin99.jpg
The Javelins have both a third rail shoe and an overhead pantograph,
but this earlier stock has no pantograph. There is still no catenary supply
into London Bridge, Charing Cross or Victoria, the major commuter termini,
so third rail DC is still a must. The trouble with upgrading is it can't be
done all at once, trains must run still run on the old system as well as
the new. I do know from a train driver friend of mine that he was
pulling 3000 amps climbing out of Dover Priory and the train was
barely moving, and that was 40 years ago. Gears would solve that
problem, but I've never found out for certain if that was it. Oh well...
Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
Nov 25, 2012, 10:17:48 PM11/25/12
to
"Don Kelly" wrote in message news:hpzss.20730$Sv5....@newsfe05.iad...
==========================================
They learn DC and Ohm's law, never progressing... perhaps the wizard
of Menlo Park had a psychological advantage over Tesla, he was
certainly richer.
They learn DC and Ohm's law, never progressing... perhaps the wizard
of Menlo Park had a psychological advantage over Tesla, he was
certainly richer.
Jos Bergervoet
Nov 26, 2012, 1:49:42 AM11/26/12
to
On 11/26/2012 1:20 AM, Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway wrote:
..
..
>>> Obviously you know all about reactive circuits
>>
>> Some things are indeed obvious, my dear Earl!
>
>>> and would happily control a fluorescent
>>> light and its choke with a dimmer switch.
>>
>> I would certainly not try it *without* this
>> choke! And "its" choke is becoming a bit of
>> an anachronism, but perhaps not in your circles,
>> my Lord.
>>
>>> I leave you to carry on and wish you every
>>> success. Good luck. .
>>
>> You are very generous.. (as the Earls of Medway
>> have always been, from the very first one on!)
>
> Happy now?
>>
>> Some things are indeed obvious, my dear Earl!
>
>>> and would happily control a fluorescent
>>> light and its choke with a dimmer switch.
>>
>> I would certainly not try it *without* this
>> choke! And "its" choke is becoming a bit of
>> an anachronism, but perhaps not in your circles,
>> my Lord.
>>
>>> I leave you to carry on and wish you every
>>> success. Good luck. .
>>
>> You are very generous.. (as the Earls of Medway
>> have always been, from the very first one on!)
>
I'm proud that I've been able to help your Lordship!
--
Jos
Timothy Sutter
Nov 26, 2012, 7:45:56 AM11/26/12
to
Don Kelly wrote:
> Timothy Sutter wrote:
> > Don Kelly wrote:
> > > There is my rant and the end of it for me.
> > V = IR
> Always? Not so.
PV = nRT
> Timothy Sutter wrote:
> > Don Kelly wrote:
> > > There is my rant and the end of it for me.
> > V = IR
> Always? Not so.
Don Kelly
Nov 26, 2012, 4:49:29 PM11/26/12
to
On 25/11/2012 7:09 PM, Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway wrote:
> Quite so, but reactive current is 90 degrees out of phase with the voltage
> so no power is involved. In larger motors a capacitor is added to remove
> the reactive current from the supply or additional losses will be incurred
> in the resistive conductor leading to the motor.
> Here a curious fact emerges.
> Mechanical losses can be overcome by driving the shaft with an internal
> combustion engine, removing slip, so we have a rotating field that an
> iron rotor has synchronous speed with and no current is induced in the
> rotor's squirrel cage. Opening the throttle on the gas engine, we again
> have slip but in a negative sense, the rotor is faster than the rotating
> field in the stator and we have a generator.
> I say this is curious because one would not normally couple a squirrel
> cage motor to an engine and expect it to generate. It shouldn't because
> there is no excitation current and no magnetic field in a squirrel cage
> rotor, so why should a voltage appear from the stator?
It won't unless you have a source of excitation- I assume that you tried
> Quite so, but reactive current is 90 degrees out of phase with the voltage
> so no power is involved. In larger motors a capacitor is added to remove
> the reactive current from the supply or additional losses will be incurred
> in the resistive conductor leading to the motor.
> Here a curious fact emerges.
> Mechanical losses can be overcome by driving the shaft with an internal
> combustion engine, removing slip, so we have a rotating field that an
> iron rotor has synchronous speed with and no current is induced in the
> rotor's squirrel cage. Opening the throttle on the gas engine, we again
> have slip but in a negative sense, the rotor is faster than the rotating
> field in the stator and we have a generator.
> I say this is curious because one would not normally couple a squirrel
> cage motor to an engine and expect it to generate. It shouldn't because
> there is no excitation current and no magnetic field in a squirrel cage
> rotor, so why should a voltage appear from the stator?
it when the motor was connected to the grid so that the grid provided
the magnetizing current. Alternatively one can use shunt capacitors
(while the machine is still on the grid and then running up over
synchronous speed and disconnecting from the grid). While this works it
isn't, in my mind, all that satisfactory as you may not get the desired
voltage.
I believe induction generators are or were used extensively in rural
parts of Scotland -taking advantage of small streams. The motor would
drive a turbine and, when wanted the motor would be run up from the
grid, the gates opened and when the turbine brought it above synchronous
speed, it would generate -taking excitation from the grid.
Startup could be automatic and shut down simply needed shutting off the
water and disconnnecting the unit. The nice thing about an induction
machine, other than its simplicity, is that it will not contribute to a
fault (except for a very short transient)- excitation lost- generation
stops.
>
>
>> I can't imagine why anyone would want a variable speed fan in a
>> stove hood.
> That is a typical option- but being able to lower speed slightly does
> reduce noise.
> ======================================
> So the chef can yell at the waiter, the dishwasher and the buss-boy
> more effectively? You must dine at very expensive restaurants if they
> can afford that luxury. :-)
other room :)
With grid excitation, as soon as the grid was disconnected, the voltage
collapsed to 0. With capacitors, once you do have some generation and
cut the grid connection, the voltage will rise or fall unless by luck
the capacitors were the right size. I have also hooked capacitors to a
synchronous machine and cut the field- some voltage drop but all went
well- again, whatever voltage resulted was dependent on the size of the
capacitors. (This is not something that I would NOT do with a large
machine -although the Russians have run alternators without field
current for periods of several minutes-using the transmission line
capacitance. Most US, European or UK machines would not do this (it's a
matter of internal reactances).
I recall one farmer who had a different approach- he needed 3 Phase but
was on a single phase rural system. He did have a large 3 phase motor so
he drove it from a single phase motor and connected the supply to one of
the phases- but drew from all 3 phases for his 3 phase needs. It worked
very well but the motor so used had to be considerably larger than the
one he wanted to drive.
Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
Nov 26, 2012, 6:06:09 PM11/26/12
to
"Don Kelly" wrote in message news:KtRss.8226$Mm3....@newsfe26.iad...
======================================
Consider:
No connection to the grid, engine RPM governor controlled, motor and
capacitor with a resonant frequency, it's a tank circuit. The smallest
residual magnetism in the rotor rapidly builds an oscillating excitation
current in the stator windings. Cheap and simple generator.
>
>
>> I can't imagine why anyone would want a variable speed fan in a
>> stove hood.
> That is a typical option- but being able to lower speed slightly does
> reduce noise.
> ======================================
> So the chef can yell at the waiter, the dishwasher and the buss-boy
> more effectively? You must dine at very expensive restaurants if they
> can afford that luxury. :-)
In my kitchen the chef is my wife and likes to hear the music from the
other room :)
===================================================
I see... so rather than buy your wife her own kitchen radio/MP3 player
you'd prefer she put up with cooking smells and perhaps smoke from
the stove which only has a slow hood fan because the noise would
interfere with you listening to the stereo with your feet up in the other
room. You seem to have her properly house-trained, I was never able
to do that.
=================================================
My good sir, the capacitors MUST be the right size. One doesn't
build a radio with any old capacitor and expect the desired frequency.
The alternative, of course, is a permanent magnet rotor with no
squirrel cage but that would be too boring... or, heaven forbid, a
a DC armature with slip rings and take the AC off the field coils.
I recall one farmer who had a different approach- he needed 3 Phase but
was on a single phase rural system. He did have a large 3 phase motor so
he drove it from a single phase motor and connected the supply to one of
the phases- but drew from all 3 phases for his 3 phase needs. It worked
very well but the motor so used had to be considerably larger than the
one he wanted to drive.
=========================================
No reason it should be, but what would he want 3-phase for except to supply
a 3-phase motor? Surely it would be less expensive to replace the motor than
buy two more?
Consider:
No connection to the grid, engine RPM governor controlled, motor and
capacitor with a resonant frequency, it's a tank circuit. The smallest
residual magnetism in the rotor rapidly builds an oscillating excitation
current in the stator windings. Cheap and simple generator.
>
>
>> I can't imagine why anyone would want a variable speed fan in a
>> stove hood.
> That is a typical option- but being able to lower speed slightly does
> reduce noise.
> ======================================
> So the chef can yell at the waiter, the dishwasher and the buss-boy
> more effectively? You must dine at very expensive restaurants if they
> can afford that luxury. :-)
In my kitchen the chef is my wife and likes to hear the music from the
other room :)
I see... so rather than buy your wife her own kitchen radio/MP3 player
you'd prefer she put up with cooking smells and perhaps smoke from
the stove which only has a slow hood fan because the noise would
interfere with you listening to the stereo with your feet up in the other
room. You seem to have her properly house-trained, I was never able
to do that.
My good sir, the capacitors MUST be the right size. One doesn't
build a radio with any old capacitor and expect the desired frequency.
The alternative, of course, is a permanent magnet rotor with no
squirrel cage but that would be too boring... or, heaven forbid, a
a DC armature with slip rings and take the AC off the field coils.
I recall one farmer who had a different approach- he needed 3 Phase but
was on a single phase rural system. He did have a large 3 phase motor so
he drove it from a single phase motor and connected the supply to one of
the phases- but drew from all 3 phases for his 3 phase needs. It worked
very well but the motor so used had to be considerably larger than the
one he wanted to drive.
No reason it should be, but what would he want 3-phase for except to supply
a 3-phase motor? Surely it would be less expensive to replace the motor than
buy two more?
Don Kelly
Nov 27, 2012, 3:17:40 PM11/27/12
to
Essentially that is right- capacitive VAR's to match motor VAR's
This is even mentioned in Wiki
--------------
>
>>
>>
>>> I can't imagine why anyone would want a variable speed fan in a
>>> stove hood.
>> That is a typical option- but being able to lower speed slightly does
>> reduce noise.
>> ======================================
>> So the chef can yell at the waiter, the dishwasher and the buss-boy
>> more effectively? You must dine at very expensive restaurants if they
>> can afford that luxury. :-)
>
> In my kitchen the chef is my wife and likes to hear the music from the
> other room :)
> ===================================================
> I see... so rather than buy your wife her own kitchen radio/MP3 player
> you'd prefer she put up with cooking smells and perhaps smoke from
> the stove which only has a slow hood fan because the noise would
> interfere with you listening to the stereo with your feet up in the other
> room. You seem to have her properly house-trained, I was never able
> to do that.
------------------------------
>>
>>
>>> I can't imagine why anyone would want a variable speed fan in a
>>> stove hood.
>> That is a typical option- but being able to lower speed slightly does
>> reduce noise.
>> ======================================
>> So the chef can yell at the waiter, the dishwasher and the buss-boy
>> more effectively? You must dine at very expensive restaurants if they
>> can afford that luxury. :-)
>
> In my kitchen the chef is my wife and likes to hear the music from the
> other room :)
> ===================================================
> I see... so rather than buy your wife her own kitchen radio/MP3 player
> you'd prefer she put up with cooking smells and perhaps smoke from
> the stove which only has a slow hood fan because the noise would
> interfere with you listening to the stereo with your feet up in the other
> room. You seem to have her properly house-trained, I was never able
> to do that.
Not a case of preference- the typical unit here comes with speed
control- Some of the time it is necessary to use the high speed and at
other times a slower speed is quite satisfactory. Depends on what is
cooking.
------------------
>
> I've played around with this with grid excitation and with capacitors.
> With grid excitation, as soon as the grid was disconnected, the voltage
> collapsed to 0. With capacitors, once you do have some generation and
> cut the grid connection, the voltage will rise or fall unless by luck
> the capacitors were the right size. I have also hooked capacitors to a
> synchronous machine and cut the field- some voltage drop but all went
> well- again, whatever voltage resulted was dependent on the size of the
> capacitors. (This is not something that I would NOT do with a large
> machine -although the Russians have run alternators without field
> current for periods of several minutes-using the transmission line
> capacitance. Most US, European or UK machines would not do this (it's a
> matter of internal reactances).
> =================================================
> My good sir, the capacitors MUST be the right size. One doesn't
> build a radio with any old capacitor and expect the desired frequency.
> The alternative, of course, is a permanent magnet rotor with no
> squirrel cage but that would be too boring... or, heaven forbid, a
> a DC armature with slip rings and take the AC off the field coils.
Yes, both frequency and voltage will be less stable than in the case of
the grid supplying the excitation. Extra capacitance is needed if the
load is not purely resistive. However there appears to be a plethora of
electronic control schemes available.
>
>
>
>
> I recall one farmer who had a different approach- he needed 3 Phase but
> was on a single phase rural system. He did have a large 3 phase motor so
> he drove it from a single phase motor and connected the supply to one of
> the phases- but drew from all 3 phases for his 3 phase needs. It worked
> very well but the motor so used had to be considerably larger than the
> one he wanted to drive.
> =========================================
> No reason it should be, but what would he want 3-phase for except to
> supply a 3-phase motor? Surely it would be less expensive to replace the
> motor than buy two more?
--------------------------
>
>
>
> I recall one farmer who had a different approach- he needed 3 Phase but
> was on a single phase rural system. He did have a large 3 phase motor so
> he drove it from a single phase motor and connected the supply to one of
> the phases- but drew from all 3 phases for his 3 phase needs. It worked
> very well but the motor so used had to be considerably larger than the
> one he wanted to drive.
> =========================================
> No reason it should be, but what would he want 3-phase for except to
> supply a 3-phase motor? Surely it would be less expensive to replace the
> motor than buy two more?
I doubt that this particular farmer bought (or did so at bargain
basement prices). He probably got surplus equipment from military(likely
WW2 vintage) or from the oil industry.
I don't know what size of motor he wanted to drive but it may have been
larger than the reasonably available single phase machines of that size.
The second time I saw him, he had moved and his system wasn't working- I
sorted it out but can't recall the advice I gave- possibly something to
Later I found that the local utility also used this scheme as a stop
gap measure in an area where there was single phase service but one
customer needed 3 phase. These areas are remote (northern Alberta,
Canada) and have population and energy density lower than anywhere in
GB or Europe. Economics favour single phase in this case. Possibly
Scotland may have a similar setup which is common in western Canada and
US.
------------------------
Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
Nov 27, 2012, 5:25:39 PM11/27/12
to
"Don Kelly" wrote in message news:Gd9ts.13609$M14....@newsfe28.iad...
===================================================
You are shipwrecked on a small island. Washed up on the beach is a container
in which you find a radio receiver which needs 120V 60Hz, a large desktop
fan, a toolbox with tools any handyman might have including a soldering
iron and solder, A 25 cc two stroke weed-wacker with a full tank.
Drive the fan with the weed-wacker engine to power the soldering iron to
modify the radio receiver to make it a Morse transmitter (SOS = ...---...),
then power the radio TX and be rescued (or not, I could happily stay there
but I'd like the option to change my mind as I might get annoyed by the
sound of the engine while listening to my favourite music on the radio).
(When I was in Florida I powered the front wheel of my bicycle with a 25 cc
weed wacker... barely enough power but the 35 cc follow-up version would
accelerate and carry me over the Punta Gorda bridge without pedalling - I
had fun building that.)
Three phase here is 415V line to line, 230 volt line to neutral for domestic
use.
To keep the three lines balanced, 3-phase is delivered everywhere. If one
house takes off red and neutral then the next gets yellow and neutral and
the third gets blue and neutral. With all three taking the same power there
is no current in the neutral back at the transformer. 10 hp single phase is
never
thought about as 3-phase is always available if that much power is ever
needed in a domestic situation.
That's why I can't get my mind around the situation you stated. If its 1 hp
then use single phase because its a vacuum cleaner, over that we use 3
phase because its an industrial application. If the farmer needs 3 phase it
has to be 5 hp or more and what else on a farm uses anything other than
a motor? Heating a large greenhouse would still be 3 phase to keep the
supply balanced. I just can't imagine anyone using low voltage single phase
to drive grain to the top of a silo with a fan, it just wouldn't happen
here. I did repair a 100 hp fan (rewound the rotor) that operated a kiln for
drying and sterilizing Fuller's earth for a pig farmer once, so yes, a lot
of power can be used on farms, but I've never seen anything other than a
3-phase grid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuller's_earth
You are shipwrecked on a small island. Washed up on the beach is a container
in which you find a radio receiver which needs 120V 60Hz, a large desktop
fan, a toolbox with tools any handyman might have including a soldering
iron and solder, A 25 cc two stroke weed-wacker with a full tank.
Drive the fan with the weed-wacker engine to power the soldering iron to
modify the radio receiver to make it a Morse transmitter (SOS = ...---...),
then power the radio TX and be rescued (or not, I could happily stay there
but I'd like the option to change my mind as I might get annoyed by the
sound of the engine while listening to my favourite music on the radio).
(When I was in Florida I powered the front wheel of my bicycle with a 25 cc
weed wacker... barely enough power but the 35 cc follow-up version would
accelerate and carry me over the Punta Gorda bridge without pedalling - I
had fun building that.)
use.
To keep the three lines balanced, 3-phase is delivered everywhere. If one
house takes off red and neutral then the next gets yellow and neutral and
the third gets blue and neutral. With all three taking the same power there
is no current in the neutral back at the transformer. 10 hp single phase is
never
thought about as 3-phase is always available if that much power is ever
needed in a domestic situation.
That's why I can't get my mind around the situation you stated. If its 1 hp
then use single phase because its a vacuum cleaner, over that we use 3
phase because its an industrial application. If the farmer needs 3 phase it
has to be 5 hp or more and what else on a farm uses anything other than
a motor? Heating a large greenhouse would still be 3 phase to keep the
supply balanced. I just can't imagine anyone using low voltage single phase
to drive grain to the top of a silo with a fan, it just wouldn't happen
here. I did repair a 100 hp fan (rewound the rotor) that operated a kiln for
drying and sterilizing Fuller's earth for a pig farmer once, so yes, a lot
of power can be used on farms, but I've never seen anything other than a
3-phase grid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuller's_earth
Don Kelly
Nov 27, 2012, 7:15:21 PM11/27/12
to
On 26/11/2012 4:45 AM, Timothy Sutter wrote:
> Don Kelly wrote:
>
>> Timothy Sutter wrote:
>
>>> Don Kelly wrote:
>>>> There is my rant and the end of it for me.
TRUE
> Don Kelly wrote:
>
>> Timothy Sutter wrote:
>
>>> Don Kelly wrote:
>>>> There is my rant and the end of it for me.
>
>>> V = IR
FALSE -Tim wrote this
>
>
>> Always? Not so.
TRUE Kelly wrote this
>
>
> PV = nRT
TRUE but not quite applicable to electric motors. Do you know why?
Androcles wrote this and the following
which I also call TRUE.
They learn DC and Ohm's law, never progressing... perhaps the wizard
of Menlo Park had a psychological advantage over Tesla, he was
certainly richer.
---------------------
of Menlo Park had a psychological advantage over Tesla, he was
certainly richer.
Now how did Tim manage to twist the quoting and add nothing more than an
echo?
Unless he comes up with something better - he joins pluto.
Timothy Sutter
Nov 28, 2012, 2:39:35 PM11/28/12
to
Don Kelly wrote:
> Timothy Sutter wrote:
> > Don Kelly wrote:
> >> Timothy Sutter wrote:
> >>> Don Kelly wrote:
> >>>> There is my rant and the end of it for me.
> TRUE
doesn't seem to be...the end of it for you.
> Timothy Sutter wrote:
> > Don Kelly wrote:
> >> Timothy Sutter wrote:
> >>> Don Kelly wrote:
> >>>> There is my rant and the end of it for me.
> TRUE
> >>> V = IR
> FALSE -Tim wrote this
> >> Always? Not so.
> TRUE Kelly wrote this
you want a medal just for showing up.
fine.
meaningless baubles of man's vanity anyway...
> > PV = nRT
> TRUE but not quite applicable to electric motors. Do you know why?
yes, there is "non-ohmic" behavior where resistance
is not a linear relationship between potential
difference and current.
here are some nice pictures for you..
http://www.launc.tased.edu.au/online/sciences/PhysSci/done/electric/resistnc/Resistance.htm
and, =similarly=, there is "non-ideal gas" behavior
where one must invoke factors like the "wan der walls" equation
to make up for factors such a compressability
which lead to non-ideal gas behaviors.
and, if you look at the title of this thread you are posting in to,
Pluto tells us;
"spin maximizes the Ampere law that makes the Inert Gases"
now, -i- don't =claim= to know precisely what
Pluto is getting at with this title, =but=
if you look here;
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.physics.electromag/srI_OCIlHng/iioMCpEFrBsJ
you'll see that one thing i said to Pluto was this;
=========================================================
<...>
it's not like the electrons were running on electricity
like they had little electric motors inside of them
and you had to charge them up to get them to spin...
<...>
=========================================================
and i think thats why you're here now...
because Pluto ran off and asked me about
electric motors because i said the above.
which is one reason i wondered aloud
if -you- were very much -like- Pluto...
> Androcles wrote this
androcles isn't here.
> Now how did Tim manage to twist the quoting and add nothing more than an
> echo?
this is the way my post looked;
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.math/5xr10Ecdznc/iz4V_87w82AJ
=======================================
Don Kelly wrote:
> Timothy Sutter wrote:
> > Don Kelly wrote:
> > > There is my rant and the end of it for me.
> Timothy Sutter wrote:
> > Don Kelly wrote:
> > > There is my rant and the end of it for me.
> > V = IR
> Always? Not so.
PV = nRT
=======================================
> Always? Not so.
PV = nRT
do you have trouble figuring out who said what?
====
Don Kelly wrote:
> Timothy Sutter wrote:
> > Don Kelly wrote:
> > > There is my rant and the end of it for me. <== Don Kelly
> Timothy Sutter wrote:
> > Don Kelly wrote:
> > V = IR <=== Timothy Sutter
> Always? Not so. <=== Done Kelly
PV = nRT <=== Timothy Sutter
====
and no "androcles" in sight.
> Unless he comes up with something better - he joins pluto.
and you crave praise.
or, you crave being belittled in public
because your 'issue' here is non-existent
trouble is, i'm not looing for a buffoon to slap around
=howeve= should i ever be looking for a buffoon to slap around
feel free to resubmit your resume...
Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
Nov 28, 2012, 4:11:50 PM11/28/12
to
"Timothy Sutter" wrote in message news:50B668...@mail.com-...
==================================================
Androcles is lurking and you are definitely a babbling wanker with no
knowledge of AC, Sutter.
kVA does not equal kW, punk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor
Androcles is lurking and you are definitely a babbling wanker with no
knowledge of AC, Sutter.
kVA does not equal kW, punk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor
Timothy Sutter
Dec 4, 2012, 5:51:35 AM12/4/12
to
:Mustin Marovat tower
> If there is a set called 0 in it is = correct
> correct:0=in
seems more like there's a set called "correct"
and 0 is in the set called "correct"
which shouldn't be confused with nothing is correct
nor that 0 is always correct, but it can be...correct always
or correct all ways or always garbled in transmission
but ONLY in the case where any ONE is wondering
if No One is wondering, it all falls apart
and 0 falls together
now, print this out and make a paper aeroplane out of it
and set it on fire and throw it at a wall and watch it crash and burn
and then 0 will be incorrect in correct
which means absolutely nothing at all
maybe
STOP
> If there is a set called 0 in it is = correct
> correct:0=in
seems more like there's a set called "correct"
and 0 is in the set called "correct"
which shouldn't be confused with nothing is correct
nor that 0 is always correct, but it can be...correct always
or correct all ways or always garbled in transmission
but ONLY in the case where any ONE is wondering
if No One is wondering, it all falls apart
and 0 falls together
now, print this out and make a paper aeroplane out of it
and set it on fire and throw it at a wall and watch it crash and burn
and then 0 will be incorrect in correct
which means absolutely nothing at all
maybe
STOP
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