LSJ Outside the Hourglass vs Pulled Fangs
Vincent
the opposing vampire B to torpor.
Can A play Pulled Fangs? (No effect has been used to set the range to
long)
Thanks
Outside the Hourglass
Type: Combat
Requires: Temporis / Obfuscate
[obf] Strike: dodge.
[tem] Maneuver, or strike: dodge, with an optional maneuver.
[TEM] Only usable before range is determined. Inflict 2 damage on the
opposing minion. A vampire can play only one Outside the Hourglass at
superior each round.
Pulled Fangs
Type: Combat
Only usable at the end of a round of combat in which this minion
inflicted more damage at close range than the opposing vampire. Not
usable by a minion being burned or going into torpor.
Put this card on the opposing vampire, and this minion inflicts 1
point of damage. The victim cannot hunt until this card is removed.
Any vampire(s) may burn this card with two +1 stealth actions. If the
victim must hunt and cannot, he or she goes into torpor. A vampire can
have only 1 Pulled Fangs.
LSJ
> Before range, minion A plays Outside the Hourglass at TEM and sends
> the opposing vampire B to torpor.
> Can A play Pulled Fangs? (No effect has been used to set the range to
> long)
Yes, each round begins at close range.
Darby Keeney
> Before range, minion A plays Outside the Hourglass at TEM and sends
> the opposing vampire B to torpor.
> Can A play Pulled Fangs? (No effect has been used to set the range to
> long)
I believe the answer is no.
Outside the Hourglass should create environmental damage in the
prerange step, like Weather Control (though the wording is
different).
Pulled Fangs requires the minion to inflict damage, and environment
damage is not counted.
LSJ
True, but Outside the Hourglass has the minion inflicting the damage.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/b483fd7d57089f13
floppyzedolfin
Damage from Outside the Hourglass is inflicted by the Vampire with
TEM.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/b483fd7d57089f13
echia...@yahoo.com
> On Jun 30, 9:12 am, Vincent <v.rip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Before range, minion A plays Outside the Hourglass at TEM and sends
> > the opposing vampire B to torpor.
> > Can A play Pulled Fangs? (No effect has been used to set the range to
> > long)
>
> Yes, each round begins at close range.
I understand the part about the damage from Outside the Hourglass
being inflicted by the minion (which the other posts discuss).
But I have trouble reconciling the idea that this combo satisfies the
close range requirement. Since this is the phase before range is
determined, it's kind of odd that range is already at close (before
range is determined). If such is the case, would this close range be
sufficient to spread a Vampiric Disease? And that cards like Blood to
Acid and Blood to Water could get slipped in before range?
To me, it seems more intuitive that range is not determined (not
close, not long) at the "before range" step, unless something has
already set the range. (i.e. you could Selective Silence / Shadow Step
the range to close and then use Outside the Hourglass and Pulled
Fangs, but without setting the range, you aren't at close range for
Outside the Hourglass).
LSJ
wrote:
> On Jun 30, 8:44 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 30, 9:12 am, Vincent <v.rip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Before range, minion A plays Outside the Hourglass at TEM and sends
> > > the opposing vampire B to torpor.
> > > Can A play Pulled Fangs? (No effect has been used to set the range to
> > > long)
>
> > Yes, each round begins at close range.
>
> I understand the part about the damage from Outside the Hourglass
> being inflicted by the minion (which the other posts discuss).
>
> But I have trouble reconciling the idea that this combo satisfies the
> close range requirement. Since this is the phase before range is
> determined, it's kind of odd that range is already at close (before
> range is determined).
"Each round of combat is fought at either close range or long range.
Close range is the default for each round." [6.4.2]
If one minion maneuvers, the range *is* then long.
The other can manuever to make the range close again.
And so on until no one wishes to change the range again.
[6.4.2] again.
> If such is the case, would this close range be
> sufficient to spread a Vampiric Disease?
Clearly not.
>And that cards like Blood to
> Acid and Blood to Water could get slipped in before range?
No:
Blood of Acid: "before strikes".
Blood to Water: "before strikes".
Chris Berger
>
> "Each round of combat is fought at either close range or long range.
> Close range is the default for each round." [6.4.2]
>
> If one minion maneuvers, the range *is* then long.
> The other can manuever to make the range close again.
> And so on until no one wishes to change the range again.
>
> [6.4.2] again.
>
> > If such is the case, would this close range be
> > sufficient to spread a Vampiric Disease?
>
> Clearly not.
>
> >And that cards like Blood to
> > Acid and Blood to Water could get slipped in before range?
>
> No:
> Blood of Acid: "before strikes".
> Blood to Water: "before strikes".
I wasn't aware that "before range" happened after strikes.
Henri K
Blood of Acid and Blood to Water are played at close range before
strikes are chosen. There is no before range step but cards that say
they are played before range is determined obviously override rules
because of their card text. If a card is only playable at close range,
you can't play it until the range is determined to be close.
Pulled Fangs can be played in this situation because nothing has yet
altered the default range, and nothing will, but the combat is already
at an end.
Robert Scythe
> Pulled Fangs can be played in this situation because nothing has yet
> altered the default range, and nothing will, but the combat is already
> at an end.
By this reasoning a Vampiric Disease counter should be passed as well.
Vincent
You get things mixed up.
Eric was pointing out that the VD counter should be passed before
range is determine (and that we could play Blood to Water etc.) The
answer is no, since range hasn't been determined yet.
As Henri points out, when the combat ends because of Outside the
Hourglass sending the opposing minion to torpor, we can check the
range since the "determine range" step is over. And since range is by
default close and hasn't changed, it remains close until the end of
combat.
But maybe you're asking what happens to a vampire with a VD counter
that is send to torpor by OtHG?
I think the Temporis minion should get the VD counter, since we're
still in combat and it's still close range.
Name: Vampiric Disease
Cardtype: Master
Master.
Put a disease counter on any vampire. Each time a vampire with a
disease counter is in combat at close range with another vampire, the
second vampire gets a counter as well. An afflicted vampire cannot
gain blood by hunting. When an afflicted vampire untaps, he or she
burns a blood or, if unable, burns the disease counter. A vampire can
have only one disease counter.
LSJ
Except that card text on VD is clearly using the "after range is
determined" window.
Vincent
What if the opposing minion B is not sent to torpor and someone sets
the round to long afterward?
Can A play Pulled Fangs since A dealt more damage at close range
(before range was determined)?
Or are the damage from Outside the Hourglass considered to be dealt at
long range?
At a undetermined (?!?) range ?
LSJ
No.
> Or are the damage from Outside the Hourglass considered to be dealt at
> long range?
Sure.
henrik
> > What if the opposing minion B is not sent to torpor and someone sets
> > the round to long afterward?
> > Can A play Pulled Fangs since A dealt more damage at close range
> > (before range was determined)?
>
> No.
>
> > Or are the damage from Outside the Hourglass considered to be dealt at
> > long range?
>
> Sure.
If minion B would've had an Improvised Flamethrower equipped, would xe
take 2 aggravated damage as soon as the range was set to long in the
above case?
Improvised Flamethrower
Type: Equipment
Cost: 2 pool
Weapon.
Strike: 2R aggravated damage, only usable once per combat. If the
opposing minion inflicts any damage on this minion at long range (even
if it is prevented), this weapon is burned and the bearer takes 2
aggravated (non-strike) damage.
LSJ
> On Jul 2, 1:28 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
> > > What if the opposing minion B is not sent to torpor and someone sets
> > > the round to long afterward?
> > > Can A play Pulled Fangs since A dealt more damage at close range
> > > (before range was determined)?
>
> > No.
>
> > > Or are the damage from Outside the Hourglass considered to be dealt at
> > > long range?
>
> > Sure.
>
> If minion B would've had an Improvised Flamethrower equipped, would xe
> take 2 aggravated damage as soon as the range was set to long in the
> above case?
>
No.
(Making the "sure" above an "I guess not -- but the point is that the
range is long")
henrik
> > > > What if the opposing minion B is not sent to torpor and someone sets
> > > > the round to long afterward?
> > > > Can A play Pulled Fangs since A dealt more damage at close range
> > > > (before range was determined)?
>
> > > No.
>
> > > > Or are the damage from Outside the Hourglass considered to be dealt at
> > > > long range?
>
> > > Sure.
>
> > If minion B would've had an Improvised Flamethrower equipped, would xe
> > take 2 aggravated damage as soon as the range was set to long in the
> > above case?
>
> No.
>
> (Making the "sure" above an "I guess not -- but the point is that the
> range is long")
If Fear of the Void Below (dai/DAI) would've been played earlier,
would Outside the Hourglass then trigger the Improvised Flamethrower?
Fear of the Void Below
Type: Combat
Requires: Daimoinon/Obfuscate
Cost: 1 blood
A vampire may play only one Fear of the Void Below each combat.
[obf] Maneuver.
[dai] Only usable before range is determined. Each round of this
combat defaults to long range, and this vampire gets an optional press
each round, only usable to end combat.
[DAI] As [dai] above, and the opposing minion's controller discards
one card at random from his or her hand during the initial strike
resolution phase of each round.
Robert Scythe
> On Jul 2, 5:10 pm, henrik <www.hen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 2, 1:28 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
> > > > What if the opposing minion B is not sent to torpor and someone sets
> > > > the round to long afterward?
> > > > Can A play Pulled Fangs since A dealt more damage at close range
> > > > (before range was determined)?
>
> > > No.
>
> > > > Or are the damage from Outside the Hourglass considered to be dealt at
> > > > long range?
>
> > > Sure.
>
> > If minion B would've had an Improvised Flamethrower equipped, would xe
> > take 2 aggravated damage as soon as the range was set to long in the
> > above case?
>
> No.
>
> (Making the "sure" above an "I guess not -- but the point is that the
> range is long")
So, conclusions garnered from this thread:
If range has not been determined in a combat and combat ends, the
default range is used for card effects whose wording does not require
range to have been determined.
Hence, Pulled Fangs can be played after Outside the Hourglass
torporizes the opposing minion.
Similarly, a minion may play Outside the Hourglass (assume at least
one damage hits), superior Alpha Glint and then Disarm.
Improvised Flamethrower does not have 'after range is determined' text
a la Vampiric Disease, Blood to Water, et al, and is more parallel to
Pulled Fangs/Disarm. Thus, if the default range is long and Outside
the Hourglass is played and combat ends before range is determined
then Improvised Flamethrower's negative effect should be applied.
If these conclusions are correct then only one discrepancy seems
apparent:
Pulled fangs cannot be played if Outside the Hourglass hits and then
range is determined to be long.
coupled with
Improvised Flamethrower's effect is not applied if Outside the
Hourglass hits and range is determined to be long.
Just Deal
>
> - Show quoted text -
I know this is a bit cornercase but it does effect the game in
interesting ways, is there a conflict here or is something somehow
misinterpreted. I'm alittle confused about what's going on anyway. Is
the default range (whether determined or not) significant or should
puled fang-disarm not be usable at all?
Wedge
I am curious what the answers are to these points. LSJ?
In addition the thread regarding Outside the Hourglass and Flesh of
Marble raises other questions for me.
Damage resolution doesn't preclude other effects
Does this errata create a damage resolution phase at the end of pre-
range
If the vampire targeted by OtH plays Alpha Glint before resolving
damage does he still have to. Is not combat over?
John McGlynn
IANALSJ, but it seems to me that damage must be resolved (one way or
another) for combat to end.
--
John McGlynn
Tremeres do it with Weather Control
LSJ
Pulled Fangs cannot be played at long range, correct.
> > > coupled with
>
> > > Improvised Flamethrower's effect is not applied if Outside the
> > > Hourglass hits and range is determined to be long.
ImpF doesn't go back and check all previously-inflicted damage,
correct.
It looks at damage as it occurs.
> > I am curious what the answers are to these points. LSJ?
I thought they followed directly from the previous post and cited
post.
> > In addition the thread regarding Outside the Hourglass and Flesh of
> > Marble raises other questions for me.
>
> > Damage resolution doesn't preclude other effects
>
> > Does this errata create a damage resolution phase at the end of pre-
> > range
No. (And this isn't errata)
> > If the vampire targeted by OtH plays Alpha Glint before resolving
> > damage does he still have to. Is not combat over?
>
> IANALSJ, but it seems to me that damage must be resolved (one way or
> another) for combat to end.
Correct.
Rulings:
Weather Control:
# Weather Control's damage will occur even if combat is subsequently
ended before range (by Mariel or Elysium: Arboretum, e.g.) [LSJ
19971110]
Wedge
one damage hits), superior Alpha Glint and then Disarm.
Disarm
pot] Only usable at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire
successfully inflicted more damage at close range than the opposing
vampire. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor.
Put this card on the opposing vampire and send that vampire into
torpor. The vampire with this card has -1 strength. He or she may burn
this card by burning 3 blood. A vampire can have only one Disarm.
[POT] As above, but the vampire with this card has -2 strength.
If Fear of the Void Below (dai/DAI) would've been played earlier,
would Outside the Hourglass then trigger the Improvised Flamethrower?
Fear of the Void Below
Type: Combat
Requires: Daimoinon/Obfuscate
Cost: 1 blood
A vampire may play only one Fear of the Void Below each combat.
[obf] Maneuver.
[dai] Only usable before range is determined. Each round of this
combat defaults to long range, and this vampire gets an optional press
each round, only usable to end combat.
[DAI] As [dai] above, and the opposing minion's controller discards
one card at random from his or her hand during the initial strike
resolution phase of each round.
I assume he meant the vampire with Improvised Flamethrower is sent to
torpor as a result of OtH.
It seems that Improvised Flamethrower will do this damage outside of
combat and be unpreventable as a result burning the vampire.
and some more from me
6.4.1. Combat Sequence
Combat occurs in a series of one or more rounds. Each round of combat
has three steps:
* Determine Range. Use maneuvers to set the range to close or
long.
* Strike. Announce and resolve strikes.
* Press. Use presses to continue into another round or to end
combat.
As usual, the acting minion always gets first opportunity to use a
card or effect before the opposing minion at every stage of combat.
If range is set as a pre. Is it fair to say, "range has been
determined"?
Or do you have to wait for the Determine Range Step to be passed,
whither skipped or not.
If range is set to long and range is not determined until after DRS.
If OtH sends the opposing vampire to torpor, you can play Pulled Fangs/
Disarm
If range has been determined to be close as a result of a pre, can you
play Immortal Prapple(and the like) in the pre-range step?
Some of these cards say, "skip Determine Range". Is this just reminder
text?
Or does it always happen when range is set?
Matt
LSJ
> A minion may play Outside the Hourglass (assume at least
> one damage hits), superior Alpha Glint and then Disarm.
>
> Disarm
> pot] Only usable at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire
> successfully inflicted more damage at close range than the opposing
> vampire. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor.
> Put this card on the opposing vampire and send that vampire into
> torpor. The vampire with this card has -1 strength. He or she may burn
> this card by burning 3 blood. A vampire can have only one Disarm.
> [POT] As above, but the vampire with this card has -2 strength.
>
> If Fear of the Void Below (dai/DAI) would've been played earlier,
> would Outside the Hourglass then trigger the Improvised Flamethrower?
Yes. (And Disarm would not be playable, since the range is long)
> Fear of the Void Below
> Type: Combat
> Requires: Daimoinon/Obfuscate
> Cost: 1 blood
> A vampire may play only one Fear of the Void Below each combat.
> [obf] Maneuver.
> [dai] Only usable before range is determined. Each round of this
> combat defaults to long range, and this vampire gets an optional press
> each round, only usable to end combat.
> [DAI] As [dai] above, and the opposing minion's controller discards
> one card at random from his or her hand during the initial strike
> resolution phase of each round.
>
> I assume he meant the vampire with Improvised Flamethrower is sent to
> torpor as a result of OtH.
> It seems that Improvised Flamethrower will do this damage outside of
> combat and be unpreventable as a result burning the vampire.
ImpF does its damage in combat, assuming it is triggered by in-combat
damage.
> and some more from me
>
> 6.4.1. Combat Sequence
>
> Combat occurs in a series of one or more rounds. Each round of combat
> has three steps:
>
> * Determine Range. Use maneuvers to set the range to close or
> long.
> * Strike. Announce and resolve strikes.
> * Press. Use presses to continue into another round or to end
> combat.
>
> As usual, the acting minion always gets first opportunity to use a
> card or effect before the opposing minion at every stage of combat.
>
> If range is set as a pre. Is it fair to say, "range has been
> determined"?
No.
> Or do you have to wait for the Determine Range Step to be passed,
> whither skipped or not.
You finish "before range stuff" before moving on.
> If range is set to long and range is not determined until after DRS.
> If OtH sends the opposing vampire to torpor, you can play Pulled Fangs/
> Disarm
If at close.
> If range has been determined to be close as a result of a pre, can you
> play Immortal Prapple(and the like) in the pre-range step?
No.
Wedge
>
> > If range is set as a pre. Is it fair to say, "range has been
> > determined"?
>
> No.
>
> > Or do you have to wait for the Determine Range Step to be passed,
> > whither skipped or not.
>
> You finish "before range stuff" before moving on.
>
Just so I am clear, you are saying, "a pre-range card's effect that
sets range is not applied,until pre-range is over".
Correct?
Matt
LSJ
No. It sets range when played.
And you still remain in the "before range" window until everyone
passes.
Then you skip the determine range window.