To LSJ: Spirit Marionette + Abactor
Vinícius BH
I'd like to know whether is possible this combo: My OBE vampire plays
SM at superior on an untapped titled vampire; he is emptied with
Heidelberg Castle and hunts with Abactor. In the resulting blood hunt,
I use the votes of the vampire stolen to vote for burning him.
Is the control of the stolen vampire returned to his original
Methuselah after or before the blood hunt? I guess that the blood hunt
is called during the action, so I can choose his votes.
Vinícius.
Spirit Marionette
Type: Action
Requires: Obeah/Dominate
[dom] (D) Bleed at +1 bleed.
[obe] (D) Bleed at +1 bleed and tap a ready minion controlled by your
prey (even if the target of the bleed is changed).
[OBE] +1 stealth action. (D) Take control of a ready untapped minion
until the end of the next action. That minion must bleed your prey
unless he or she must hunt.
Abactor
Type: Action
+1 stealth hunt action.
Gain 5 blood. After successful resolution, a referendum is called to
call a blood hunt on this vampire (independent of the action, just as
if he or she had committed diablerie).
Heidelberg Castle, Germany
Type: Master
Cost: 2 pool
Master: unique location.
Tap to move blood, equipment cards and/or retainers between any two
ready vampires you control. (You choose the amount of blood you move
and which cards you transfer.) Cannot be used during an action.
LSJ
> Hello,
>
> I'd like to know whether is possible this combo: My OBE vampire plays
> SM at superior on an untapped titled vampire; he is emptied with
> Heidelberg Castle and hunts with Abactor. In the resulting blood hunt,
> I use the votes of the vampire stolen to vote for burning him.
>
> Is the control of the stolen vampire returned to his original
> Methuselah after or before the blood hunt? I guess that the blood hunt
> is called during the action, so I can choose his votes.
Correct.
Meej
> On Nov 10, 12:41 pm, Vinícius BH <mak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
>
> > I'd like to know whether is possible this combo: My OBE vampire plays
> > SM at superior on an untapped titled vampire; he is emptied with
> > Heidelberg Castle and hunts with Abactor. In the resulting blood hunt,
> > I use the votes of the vampire stolen to vote for burning him.
>
> > Is the control of the stolen vampire returned to his original
> > Methuselah after or before the blood hunt? I guess that the blood hunt
> > is called during the action, so I can choose his votes.
>
> Correct.
Huh. Even though Abactor reads "after successful resolution" and
"independent of the action," it's still during the action?
- D.J.
floppyzedolfin
> On Nov 10, 1:17 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 10, 12:41 pm, Vinícius BH <mak...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Is the control of the stolen vampire returned to his original
> > > Methuselah after or before the blood hunt? I guess that the blood hunt
> > > is called during the action, so I can choose his votes.
>
> > Correct.
>
> Huh. Even though Abactor reads "after successful resolution" and
> "independent of the action," it's still during the action?
>
> - D.J.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/41be745f842c97a7
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/41be745f842c97a7
), therefore the referendum happens before the end of the action.
LSJ
> On Nov 10, 1:17 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 10, 12:41 pm, Vinícius BH <mak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Hello,
>
> > > I'd like to know whether is possible this combo: My OBE vampire plays
> > > SM at superior on an untapped titled vampire; he is emptied with
> > > Heidelberg Castle and hunts with Abactor. In the resulting blood hunt,
> > > I use the votes of the vampire stolen to vote for burning him.
>
> > > Is the control of the stolen vampire returned to his original
> > > Methuselah after or before the blood hunt? I guess that the blood hunt
> > > is called during the action, so I can choose his votes.
>
> > Correct.
>
> Huh. Even though Abactor reads "after successful resolution" and
> "independent of the action," it's still during the action?
Yes, "just as if he or she had committed diablerie".
XZealot
> Hello,
>
> I'd like to know whether is possible this combo: My OBE vampire plays
> SM at superior on an untapped titled vampire; he is emptied with
> Heidelberg Castle and hunts with Abactor. In the resulting blood hunt,
> I use the votes of the vampire stolen to vote for burning him.
Now that is just mean...
Juggernaut1981
But oh so very funny...
Brum
And exactly why I bought 5 Mind Rapes to add to the ones I already
had...
DOM FOR OBF PRE ftw
Vinícius BH
Thanks for the answer.
Vinícius BH
Indeed. The idea with my Spirit Marionette decks is "how can I waste a
minion with 1 action". For instance, to play Abomination on
marionetted werewolves (happened once) + Resurrection (never happened
still).
Dasein
That's cute. But burning allies is super easy. Just Rave and move all
the blood/life off onto one of your guys. (Heidelberg doesn't work
with allies, but Rave does).
Burning your own vampires is a bit harder. There's always the old
trick of putting a for skill card on them, steal them, then Force of
Will and/or Daring the Dawn. May burn depending on how much blood they
have. Works well with Rave and/or Heidelberg for obvious reasons.
Juggernaut1981
>
> - Show quoted text -
That's the Matt "Lord Ashton" Barnett trick. Put Fortitude on your
prey, Spirit Marionette them, Heidelburg everything off, then Hunt
with a Day Op... or various versions of that.
henrik
> Indeed. The idea with my Spirit Marionette decks is "how can I waste a
> minion with 1 action". For instance, to play Abomination on
> marionetted werewolves (happened once) + Resurrection (never happened
> still).
You're aware that the marionetted werewolf must bleed though (even if
it has 0 bleed), and after that it will return to the real owner?
Cry Wolf is an exception, since it'll have two mandatory actions and
thus will get stuck doing nothing.
Vinícius BH
> On Nov 11, 2:10 pm, Vinícius BH <mak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 10 nov, 17:59, Juggernaut1981 <brasscompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 11, 6:37 am, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 10, 11:41 am, Vinícius BH <mak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Hello,
>
> > > > > I'd like to know whether is possible this combo: My OBE vampire plays
> > > > > SM at superior on an untapped titled vampire; he is emptied with
> > > > > Heidelberg Castle and hunts with Abactor. In the resulting blood hunt,
> > > > > I use the votes of the vampire stolen to vote for burning him.
>
> > > > Now that is just mean...
>
> > > But oh so very funny...
>
> > Indeed. The idea with my Spirit Marionette decks is "how can I waste a
> > minion with 1 action". For instance, to play Abomination on
> > marionetted werewolves (happened once) + Resurrection (never happened
> > still).
>
> That's cute. But burning allies is super easy. Just Rave and move all
> the blood/life off onto one of your guys. (Heidelberg doesn't work
> with allies, but Rave does).
Alas, I cannot Rave with the ally, because he must bleed or do
nothing. The marionetted werewolf (Ossian is popular around here) is
under my control "until the end of the next action". So, my next
action is playing Abomination with one of my vampires on him.
> Burning your own vampires is a bit harder. There's always the old
> trick of putting a for skill card on them, steal them, then Force of
> Will and/or Daring the Dawn. May burn depending on how much blood they
> have. Works well with Rave and/or Heidelberg for obvious reasons.
I think it is a lot of trouble to use Force of Will (with Nocturn
Theater); putting a fortitude skill card and Daring the Dawn/Day
Operation is fine (and less troublesome). But I haven't got enough
daring the dawns...
floppyzedolfin
> On 11 nov, 01:39, Dasein <dasein2...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 11, 2:10 pm, Vinícius BH <mak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On 10 nov, 17:59, Juggernaut1981 <brasscompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 11, 6:37 am, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Nov 10, 11:41 am, Vinícius BH <mak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Hello,
>
> > > > > > I'd like to know whether is possible this combo: My OBE vampire plays
> > > > > > SM at superior on an untapped titled vampire; he is emptied with
> > > > > > Heidelberg Castle and hunts with Abactor. In the resulting blood hunt,
> > > > > > I use the votes of the vampire stolen to vote for burning him.
>
> > > > > Now that is just mean...
>
> > > > But oh so very funny...
>
> > > Indeed. The idea with my Spirit Marionette decks is "how can I waste a
> > > minion with 1 action". For instance, to play Abomination on
> > > marionetted werewolves (happened once) + Resurrection (never happened
> > > still).
>
> > That's cute. But burning allies is super easy. Just Rave and move all
> > the blood/life off onto one of your guys. (Heidelberg doesn't work
> > with allies, but Rave does).
>
> Alas, I cannot Rave with the ally, because he must bleed or do
> nothing. The marionetted werewolf (Ossian is popular around here) is
> under my control "until the end of the next action". So, my next
> action is playing Abomination with one of my vampires on him.
Your next action must be "the minion [werewolf] bleeds." You can't
Abominate it, unless the stolen minion cannot perform bleed (and, if
on 0 blood, hunt) actions at all (Pentex Subversion, sup' Enrage and 1
blood, no Tremere when taking control of a Tremere Slave, ...)
> > Burning your own vampires is a bit harder. There's always the old
> > trick of putting a for skill card on them, steal them, then Force of
> > Will and/or Daring the Dawn. May burn depending on how much blood they
> > have. Works well with Rave and/or Heidelberg for obvious reasons.
>
> I think it is a lot of trouble to use Force of Will (with Nocturn
> Theater); putting a fortitude skill card and Daring the Dawn/Day
> Operation is fine (and less troublesome). But I haven't got enough
> daring the dawns...
If you tap a minion with Nocturn Theater, you can't steal xem with
Spirit Marionnette.
Vinícius BH
But can I choose to do nothing with him, and for instance, play
Abomination with one of my other vampires, can't I? I think the 'must
bleed your prey' clause just restricts the type of actions the
marionetted minion can do; the minion isn't required to take any
action at all, is it?
By the way, I've seen somewhere in a tournament final report (I
couldn't find the related thread) the following sequence:
-OBE vampire plays SM superior successfully in an untapped OBF
vampire;
-other vampire do some action (e.g., bleed);
-attempt to block is declared;
-marionetted vampire plays Veil the Legions at superior emptying
himself.
-at the end of the action, marionetted vampire, empty, is returned to
his original Methuselah.
Isn't that legal to play?
henrik
> > > Indeed. The idea with my Spirit Marionette decks is "how can I waste a
> > > minion with 1 action". For instance, to play Abomination on
> > > marionetted werewolves (happened once) + Resurrection (never happened
> > > still).
>
> > You're aware that the marionetted werewolf must bleed though (even if
> > it has 0 bleed), and after that it will return to the real owner?
> > Cry Wolf is an exception, since it'll have two mandatory actions and
> > thus will get stuck doing nothing.
>
> > Spirit Marionette
> > Type: Action
> > Requires: Obeah/Dominate
> > [dom] (D) Bleed at +1 bleed.
> > [obe] (D) Bleed at +1 bleed and tap a ready minion controlled by your
> > prey (even if the target of the bleed is changed).
> > [OBE] +1 stealth action. (D) Take control of a ready untapped minion
> > until the end of the next action. That minion must bleed your prey
> > unless he or she must hunt.
>
> But can I choose to do nothing with him, and for instance, play
> Abomination with one of my other vampires, can't I? I think the 'must
> bleed your prey' clause just restricts the type of actions the
> marionetted minion can do; the minion isn't required to take any
> action at all, is it?
The stolen minion must bleed your prey unless he or she must hunt.
It's a mandatory action which means you can't do any other actions
before that (except other mandatory actions, like hunting with empty
vampires etc).
> By the way, I've seen somewhere in a tournament final report (I
> couldn't find the related thread) the following sequence:
> -OBE vampire plays SM superior successfully in an untapped OBF
> vampire;
> -other vampire do some action (e.g., bleed);
> -attempt to block is declared;
> -marionetted vampire plays Veil the Legions at superior emptying
> himself.
> -at the end of the action, marionetted vampire, empty, is returned to
> his original Methuselah.
>
> Isn't that legal to play?
No. I guess you could steal a minion with OBF, empty one of your own
vampires with Heidelberg and then hunt with your empty vampre in order
to play Veil the Legions with the marionetted vampire.
Vinícius BH
But, I can steal one untapped vampire with 'for', use Nocturn Theater
on him to tap a minion controlled by my prey (as a bonus), and play
Force of Will with him. A lot of moving parts (mainly protecting the
Nocturn Theater), I admit it, but it can be done.
Nocturn Theater
Type: Master
Cost: 2 pool
Master: unique location.
During your untap phase, you may tap this card and a ready vampire you
control to tap a minion controlled by your prey. Any titled vampire
may burn this card as a (D) action.
Force of Will
Type: Action
Requires: Fortitude
Cost: 1 blood
Only usable by a tapped vampire.
[for] (D) Bleed with +1 bleed. After resolution, this vampire takes 2
unpreventable aggravated damage even if the action is blocked.
[FOR] As above, but with +2 bleed, and the acting vampire takes only 1
unpreventable aggravated damage.
Vinícius BH
So, does the "bleed or hunt" clause on SM 'create' a mandatory action
for the marionetted minion?
henrik
Yes. Your next action must be to bleed with that minion, unless he or
she must hunt. Some exceptions exists where the stolen minion can't
hunt or bleed due to other card texts, but in most cases you just get
to steal it, bleed with it and return it.
floppyzedolfin
> So, does the "bleed or hunt" clause on SM 'create' a mandatory action
> for the marionetted minion?
Sort of. More specifically, the use of the word "must" makes the
action mandatory (it's not mandatory because it's a bleed, it's
mandatory because the card says the minion **must** bleed).
floppyzedolfin
> But, I can steal one untapped vampire with 'for', use Nocturn Theater
> on him to tap a minion controlled by my prey (as a bonus), and play
> Force of Will with him. A lot of moving parts (mainly protecting the
> Nocturn Theater), I admit it, but it can be done.
>
> Nocturn Theater
> Type: Master
> Cost: 2 pool
> Master: unique location.
> During your untap phase, you may tap this card and a ready vampire you
> control to tap a minion controlled by your prey. Any titled vampire
> may burn this card as a (D) action.
>
I recommend checking when Nocturn Theater can be used to tap a
minion ;)
Vinícius BH
Ops! Nothing like reading the card BEFORE posting :^)
Thanks.
Vinícius BH
I see. Thanks for the answers.