Smear Campaign question
Jozxyqk
I have a Fame on my prey's vampire. My grandpredator has a Fame on my
predator's vampire.
My grandpredator paid 1 pool to continue contesting Fame during his untap
phase.
It is now my untap phase, and I control Smear Campaign.
I tap Smear Campaign to burn the Fame on my predator's vampire, before I make
my "contest or yield" decision.
Since my Fame is now the only one in play, and it is still my untap phase,
does it immediately come back?
Drain
You couldn't target it with the Smear Campaign in the first place,
given that it wasn't in play.
Drain
Jozxyqk
Ohh dammit!
Blame it on lack of sleep.
Matthew T. Morgan
Why would you be able to use Smear Campaign to burn a contested card?
Contested cards are out of play.
Try burning the vampire during your untap phase. For example, your prey
controls empty Julius with his own Fame (a clever ploy to keep from having
to take Fame damage) and The New Inquisition is in play. During your
untap phase, you order events so Julius takes a damage and burns before
you would make the contest decision, then you can choose to have your Fame
come back into play.
Matt Morgan
ira...@gmail.com
> Try burning the vampire during your untap phase. For example, your prey
> controls empty Julius with his own Fame (a clever ploy to keep from having
> to take Fame damage) and The New Inquisition is in play. During your
> untap phase, you order events so Julius takes a damage and burns before
> you would make the contest decision, then you can choose to have your Fame
> come back into play.
Not that it matters much, but is that really the way it works? It
seems like the "is this card contested?" check occurs at the beginning
of the untap, which then sets up a choice that must be done at some
point during the untap ("pay to contest or not?").
In your example, it seems possible to me that you wouldn't pay to
contest, yet you also wouldn't get it back until the beginning of your
next untap phase. See the rules quote below.
Ira
4. Untap Phase
You start your turn with your untap phase. At the beginning of your
untap phase, you must untap all of your cards (except your infernal
cards, see section 11). Any cards or effects that require or allow you
to do something during your untap phase take effect after you have
untapped your cards. You may choose the order in which these effects
take place. Along with effects generated by cards, there are other
effects that are resolved during the untap phase:
* If you have the Edge, you may take one blood counter from the
blood bank and add it to your pool.
* For each card and title you are contesting, you must choose to
yield or to pay to contest it (see below).
4.1. Contested Cards
Some of the cards in the game represent unique resources, such as
specific locations, equipment or people. These cards will be
identified as "unique" in their card text. In addition, all vampire
cards represent unique vampires. If more than one copy of a unique
card is brought into play, that means control of the card is being
contested. For the duration of the contest, all copies of the
contested card are turned face down and are out of play. If an
additional copy of an already-contested card is brought into play, it
is immediately contested and turned face down as well.
The cost to contest a card is one pool, which you pay during each of
your untap phases. Instead of paying the cost to contest the card, you
may choose to yield the card. A yielded card is burned. Any cards or
counters stacked on the yielded card are also burned.
If all other copies of a card you are contesting are yielded, then the
card is untapped and turned face up during your next untap phase,
ending the contest.
Matthew T. Morgan
> On Jul 16, 8:53 pm, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote:
>> Try burning the vampire during your untap phase. For example, your prey
>> controls empty Julius with his own Fame (a clever ploy to keep from having
>> to take Fame damage) and The New Inquisition is in play. During your
>> untap phase, you order events so Julius takes a damage and burns before
>> you would make the contest decision, then you can choose to have your Fame
>> come back into play.
>
> Not that it matters much, but is that really the way it works? It
> seems like the "is this card contested?" check occurs at the beginning
> of the untap, which then sets up a choice that must be done at some
> point during the untap ("pay to contest or not?").
>
> In your example, it seems possible to me that you wouldn't pay to
> contest, yet you also wouldn't get it back until the beginning of your
> next untap phase. See the rules quote below.
I don't see "beginning" in the rules there. I only see "during." It's
one of the events that can be ordered.
Matt Morgan
--
LSJ
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, ira...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Jul 16, 8:53 pm, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote:
>>> Try burning the vampire during your untap phase. For example, your prey
>>> controls empty Julius with his own Fame (a clever ploy to keep from
>>> having
>>> to take Fame damage) and The New Inquisition is in play. During your
>>> untap phase, you order events so Julius takes a damage and burns before
>>> you would make the contest decision, then you can choose to have your
>>> Fame
>>> come back into play.
>>
>> Not that it matters much, but is that really the way it works? It
>> seems like the "is this card contested?" check occurs at the beginning
>> of the untap, which then sets up a choice that must be done at some
>> point during the untap ("pay to contest or not?").
>>
>> In your example, it seems possible to me that you wouldn't pay to
>> contest, yet you also wouldn't get it back until the beginning of your
>> next untap phase. See the rules quote below.
>
> I don't see "beginning" in the rules there. I only see "during." It's
> one of the events that can be ordered.
True. You can order it. But the key is:
>> 4.1. Contested Cards
>> If all other copies of a card you are contesting are yielded, then the
>> card is untapped and turned face up during your next untap phase,
>> ending the contest.
So if the last other copy of Fame contesting your Fame ceases to contest during
your untap phase, then you "win" your Fame back on your *next* untap phase.
So you still have to pay to contest your copy (the last remaining copy) *this*
untap phase (or yield it, of course).
For example, during your untap phase, if you order events so contested-Fame
Julius takes a damage and burns before you would make the decision to contest
your Fame, then you still have to contest or yield your Fame, since your don't
"win" the contest until your next untap phase.
Blooded Sand
But if Julius has burnt, that means the Fame on him is no longer in or
out ofplay, it is just burnt. Else it would mean that once Julius has
entered the ash heap, the Fame on him is still somehow on the table,
even though out of play. Tha Fame would thus either be targeting a
vampire in the Ash heap, or not targeting anything.
LSJ
Being burnt is one way of being out of play.
But, yes, the above was written with the understanding that the Fame on Julius
went to the ash heap when Julius did.
> Else it would mean that once Julius has
> entered the ash heap, the Fame on him is still somehow on the table,
> even though out of play. Tha Fame would thus either be targeting a
> vampire in the Ash heap, or not targeting anything.
Right.
So the other Fame is gone. True.
So your Fame will win the contest on your *next* untap phase [4.1], if it isn't
been sent to the ash heap as well in the meantime (like, say, if the vampire it
is on is burned or if you choose to yield during *this* untap phase).
If you want to win the contest, you'll have to pay to contest during this untap
phase.
Blooded Sand
I understand that my Fame will only come in to play on the *next*
untap. But there is no card contesting that Fame, so why do I have to
pay for a contest that no longer exists?
Salem
>> Right.
>>
>> So the other Fame is gone. True.
>>
>> So your Fame will win the contest on your *next* untap phase [4.1], if it isn't
>> been sent to the ash heap as well in the meantime (like, say, if the vampire it
>> is on is burned or if you choose to yield during *this* untap phase).
>>
>> If you want to win the contest, you'll have to pay to contest during this untap
>> phase.
>
> I understand that my Fame will only come in to play on the *next*
> untap. But there is no card contesting that Fame, so why do I have to
> pay for a contest that no longer exists?
because there are only two options: pay or yield.
if you don't yield (your fame goes to the ashheap), what other possible
option is there?
--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'gmail' to email)
Daneel
Rulebook:
>>>
The cost to contest a card is one pool, which you pay during each
of your untap phases. Instead of paying the cost to contest the
card, you may choose to yield the card. A yielded card is burned.
Any cards or counters stacked on the yielded card are also burned.
If all other copies of a card you are contesting are yielded, then
the card is untapped and turned face up during your next untap
phase, ending the contest.
>>>
For me it would be more intuitive to interpret the "next" in "during your
next untap phase" as simply a turn of words (as it would be silly to put
something like "the first untap phase since your last one"). The intent,
as I interpret it, is simply to limit contestation or its ending to the
untap phase, not to delay any contestation ending from the current untap
phase, as in the example above.
It would have been intuitive for me to interpret the rulebook in the
following way:
During your untap phase you need to deal with each contestation one way or
the other (mandatory - cannot exit untap without it). When you look at a
contestation, check if the copy is the last one (in which case, turn it
over and regain control); if it isn't the last one, pay or yield.
Come to think of it, the above ruling differs in one thing from this - the
check on all contestations is made when entering the untap phase, and
effects happening during the untap phase can no longer influence the
status of the contested items. Which isn't particularly a tragedy or
anything, given how unfrequent such an occurance can be, but I think my
interpretation is more natural.
--
Regards,
Daneel
Blooded Sand
This is very cose to what I am saying. The rules state that the
contest happens during my untap phase, and also that I can organise
the order of occurrences during my untap as I choose. So if I choose
the order in such a way as to make the opposing copy of Fame no longer
existant, then there is no contest. Thus why do I have to pay for it?
LSJ
> This is very cose to what I am saying. The rules state that the
> contest happens during my untap phase, and also that I can organise
> the order of occurrences during my untap as I choose.
The rules state that the contest, which is continuous (not something that
"happens during your untap phase"), must be addressed/handled during your untap
phase.
The rules also state that once yours is the sole remaining copy of the contested
copies, that yours wins the contest on your *next* untap phase.
> So if I choose
> the order in such a way as to make the opposing copy of Fame no longer
> existant, then there is no contest. Thus why do I have to pay for it?
Because the contest is still ongoing (it is not your *next* untap phase after
your copy has become the sole remaining copy).
The same reason that, when contesting KRCG News Radio, when the other Methuselah
yields, your copy remains contested (until your *next* untap phase) -- because
your copy, even though it is the sole remaining copy, is still contested.
witness1
> > the order in such a way as to make the opposing copy of Fame no longer
> > existant, then there is no contest. Thus why do I have to pay for it?
>
> Because the contest is still ongoing (it is not your *next* untap phase after
> your copy has become the sole remaining copy).
Yet when Khabar: Glory, which uses the same "next untap phase"
phrasing, comes into play during the untap phase, it immediately burns
instead of waiting for your *next* untap phase.
That seems a bit awkward.
-witness1
LSJ
True. But that has its own precedents.
Blooded Sand
But that means that you are allowing the same text to have different
meanings.
John Flournoy
Not really; in both cases it's reading the words 'next untap phase' in
the same way, i.e. 'the next untap phase after this moment'.
The difference with the K:G situation is that it is looking for 'the
next untap phase after the card is originally played', which is
different than 'the next untap phase after the contestation ends'. The
phrase is the same, but the 'next after -what-' part is different due
to the context of the rest of the wording.
It'd work exactly the same way if Khabar: Glory were somehow being
played during your untap phase (as opposed to merely re-entering play
during it.)
-John Flournoy
sg3kmb6...@gmail.com
>
> > > >> Because the contest is still ongoing (it is not your *next* untap phase after
> > > >> your copy has become the sole remaining copy).
>
> > > > Yet when Khabar: Glory, which uses the same "next untap phase"
> > > > phrasing, comes into play during the untap phase, it immediately burns
> > > > instead of waiting for your *next* untap phase.
>
> > > > That seems a bit awkward.
>
> > > True. But that has its own precedents.
>
> > But that means that you are allowing the same text to have different
> > meanings.
>
> Not really; in both cases it's reading the words 'next untap phase' in
> the same way, i.e. 'the next untap phase after this moment'.
>
> The difference with the K:G situation is that it is looking for 'the
> next untap phase after the card is originally played', which is
> different than 'the next untap phase after the contestation ends'. The
> phrase is the same, but the 'next after -what-' part is different due
> to the context of the rest of the wording.
>
> It'd work exactly the same way if Khabar: Glory were somehow being
> played during your untap phase (as opposed to merely re-entering play
> during it.)
Well, what LSJ wrote in the Khabar: Glory thread was that "during your
next untap phase" just meant "on your untap phase".
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/c797677bee670073
So I'm not really sure what the difference is :s
I can see how it works with Khabar: Glory and why it burns right away
after a contest (even if I find it silly), but I kinda think that this
ruling clashes with it. The words are the same in both the rulebook
and on Khabar: Glory, but in one case they're meant to be read as "on
your untap phase" and in the other case they're meant to be read as
"during your next untap phase".
At least that's how it looks to me atm.
LSJ
> Well, what LSJ wrote in the Khabar: Glory thread was that "during your
> next untap phase" just meant "on your untap phase".
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/c797677bee670073
>
> So I'm not really sure what the difference is :s
Since K:G cannot be played in the untap phase, when it says "next untap phase",
that has the same meaning as "each untap phase".
Daneel
Whether K:G can currently be played in the Untap phase is completely
immaterial to the theoretical discussion here.
The question is, whether "next X" refers to the specific next X or just
whatever X that happens before any other X-es as "seen" by the effect; in
which latter case the current X would also arguably fulfill "next X".
--
Regards,
Daneel
Blooded Sand
> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:36:44 -0400, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > sg3kmb613sdf...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Well, what LSJ wrote in the Khabar: Glory thread was that "during your
> >> next untap phase" just meant "on your untap phase".
>
> >> So I'm not really sure what the difference is :s
>
> > Since K:G cannot be played in the untap phase, when it says "next untap
> > phase", that has the same meaning as "each untap phase".
>
> Whether K:G can currently be played in the Untap phase is completely
> immaterial to the theoretical discussion here.
>
> The question is, whether "next X" refers to the specific next X or just
> whatever X that happens before any other X-es as "seen" by the effect; in
> which latter case the current X would also arguably fulfill "next X".
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Daneel
My point exactly
LSJ
> On Jul 22, 8:19 pm, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:36:44 -0400, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>>> sg3kmb613sdf...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Well, what LSJ wrote in the Khabar: Glory thread was that "during your
>>>> next untap phase" just meant "on your untap phase".
>>>> So I'm not really sure what the difference is :s
>>> Since K:G cannot be played in the untap phase, when it says "next untap
>>> phase", that has the same meaning as "each untap phase".
>> Whether K:G can currently be played in the Untap phase is completely
>> immaterial to the theoretical discussion here.
>>
>> The question is, whether "next X" refers to the specific next X or just
>> whatever X that happens before any other X-es as "seen" by the effect; in
>> which latter case the current X would also arguably fulfill "next X".
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>>
>> Daneel
>
> My point exactly
Me, too.
Blooded Sand
Um, how? He is specifically querying whether the very next untap phase
(the current one, which is still not finished) meets the requirements
of next or not.
Salem
So I can untap with Rutor's hand the turn i play it? That doesn't sound
right.
Kevin M.
> So I can untap with Rutor's hand the turn i play it?
> That doesn't sound right.
Don't like card text, eh? Red herring taste better?
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Salem
> Salem <kell...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> So I can untap with Rutor's hand the turn i play it?
>> That doesn't sound right.
>
> Don't like card text, eh? Red herring taste better?
nevermind. i got confused over which way this was going.
Blooded Sand
Rutors text specifically states starting. This means that it triggers
at the start of your turn. Contests happen during untap hase, no
mention of start.
Rutors Card Text:
+1 stealth action.
Put this card on the acting vampire. The vampire takes 1 aggravated
damage (damage not preventable). Beginning with your next turn, the
vampire gets one additional untap during each of your minion phases
for the remainder of the game. A vampire may only have one Rutor's
Hand
As above, but the aggravated damage may be prevented by burning 3
additional blood.
Salem
umm...no it doesn't. the 'beginning' refers to when to look for the
effect to kick in. The 'beginning' doesn't refer to the start of the
turn. The turn as a whole is referenced.
it just seems that under the hypothesis that 'next untap' also means
'this current untap', then rutor's would allow you to untap the turn you
play it. Which i know is not right.
> Rutors Card Text:
>
> +1 stealth action.
>
> Put this card on the acting vampire. The vampire takes 1 aggravated
> damage (damage not preventable). Beginning with your next turn, the
> vampire gets one additional untap during each of your minion phases
> for the remainder of the game. A vampire may only have one Rutor's
> Hand
>
> As above, but the aggravated damage may be prevented by burning 3
> additional blood.
>
Blooded Sand
Back to point of the argument though is that there is othing to
contest once my preys fame is burnt, so why do i have to pay for a non
existent contest?
LSJ
Faulty premise. The contest is ongoing. See the example given earlier in the
thread for KRCG News.
Blooded Sand
Thats exactly my problem. How can a contest be ongoing if the object
being contested no longer exists? Makes no sense to me.
James Coupe
It happens all the time in the regular way.
I have Ivory Bow, you have Ivory Bow. You yield yours during your turn
as normal.
Mine is still contested. Mine is still out of play. During my turn, I
get it back. If someone called Peace Treaty, mine would escape -
because it's still contested.
This is just the ordinary rules. No special fancy footwork, no stupid
set ups.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Salem
think of a running race. just you and one other guy. the other guy
breaks his leg, falls over, and smashes his head open on the ground,
dying slowly and painfully.
this doesn't mean you win the race, though. you still need to get to the
finish line. so keep running just a little longer, and then you'll win.
XZealot
It exists on a little piece of laminated paper......
Comments Welcome,
]Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp