German-Wings Copilot "one of us"?

[herbk...@gmail.com]

I'm very much saddened to have just learned the Andreas Lubitz, the 28- old who deliberately seems to have flown the A 320 into the mountains started flying in a Glider Club (Montabaur). He was still a member and renewed his glider license in 2014 that he had since his teenage-years. If confirmed, this mass murderer is a stain on what we all believe is a brotherhood of ethical and morals-driven individuals. Using Occam's Razor, the explanation given by the French prosecutors this morning is highly likely.
I'm further troubled that this horrible act ended precisely on what the French call "Le Parcours", a much beloved mountain range that allows fast and long North-South glider flights along the French Alps. I had a wonderful glider vacation in Barcelonnette, a couple of km from the crash site. This is all very sad. It must multiply the pain of the survivors of those on board.

Herb

[1soo...@gmail.com]

I am also so sad to see the Parcours, where my own glider pilot, my US Team pilots at WGCs in 2005 and 2006, and many of our friends have flown many hours, as the scene of such horror. Seyne, where the recovery efforts are based, is also a glider field. Thinking of all of the people affected by this tragic event.
Susan "EY Crew"

[bruced...@gmail.com]

An optimistic view is that he was not one of us based solely on his last flight. He possessed a glider rating, but he was not one of us. To be a glider pilot, you have to be an optimist, (JJI) ~Barny

[bumper]

On Thursday, March 26, 2015 at 6:53:23 PM UTC-7, bruced...@gmail.com wrote:
> An optimistic view is that he was not one of us based solely on his last flight. He possessed a glider rating, but he was not one of us. To be a glider pilot, you have to be an optimist, (JJI) ~Barny

Exactly, Barny. To be one of us, one had to have a passion for, care about, and share in the kindred spirit of those who fly, be they bird or man.

bumper

[Dave Doe]

In article <e17de245-25db-4896...@googlegroups.com>,
herbk...@gmail.com, herbk...@gmail.com says...

Depression, just like religion, is a terrible and horible thing. There
were no survivors. :(

--
Duncan.

[Paul T]

At 16:09 26 March 2015, herbk...@gmail.com wrote:
>I'm very much saddened to have just learned the Andreas Lubitz,
the 28-

>old=

> who deliberately seems to have flown the A 320 into the
mountains started

>=

>flying in a Glider Club (Montabaur). He was still a member and
renewed his

>=

>glider license in 2014 that he had since his teenage-years. If
confirmed,

>=

>this mass murderer is a stain on what we all believe is a
brotherhood of

>et=

>hical and morals-driven individuals. Using Occam's Razor, the
explanation

>=

>given by the French prosecutors this morning is highly likely.
>I'm further troubled that this horrible act ended precisely on what
the

>Fre=

>nch call "Le Parcours", a much beloved mountain range that allows
fast and

>=

>long North-South glider flights along the French Alps. I had a
wonderful

>gl=

>ider vacation in Barcelonnette, a couple of km from the crash site.
This

>i=

>s all very sad. It must multiply the pain of the survivors of those
on

>boa=
>rd.
>
>Herb
>

One of the most idiotic posts I have seen in a long time.
1) Not all the facts are out yet -your jumping the gun about this
young man.
2) Just because your a glider pilot does not make you whiter than
white or make you in any way any ethically or morally superior to
any other human being on this planet- indeed many glider pilots
have been complicit in the past either directly or indirectly with the
deaths of many, many more people than this. Whether you feel
these deaths were justifiable depends usually on your politics.

Personally it saddens me that mankind has not yet reached the
stage where it cannot find other resolutions than violence to sort out
differences, and can take a thing such as beautiful as flight and use
it has a method of death and destruction. One can only hope the
human race will one day grow up, before it annihilates itself.

[richard wilkening]

"To be a glider pilot, you have to be an optimist," (JJI) ~Barny

<Like>

[herbk...@gmail.com]

Paul, if holding yourself and the people you associate with to a high standard is idiotic then yes, I'm an idiot. Thanks for the name-calling btw, very classy. Mankind has proven that it can "weaponize" nearly every seemingly peaceful activity and flying gliders cannot be exempted. If confirmed further by facts, the copilot's name will be added to the roster of mass-murderers and suicide bombers. The families of the victims, already numb with pain, will be scarred for life by this crime.

[Paul T]

At 14:09 27 March 2015, herbk...@gmail.com wrote:
>On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 6:30:05 AM UTC-5, Paul T wrote:
>> At 16:09 26 March 2015, herbk...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >I'm very much saddened to have just learned the Andreas

Lubitz,=20
>> the 28-
>> >old=3D
>> > who deliberately seems to have flown the A 320 into the=20
>> mountains started
>> >=3D

>> >flying in a Glider Club (Montabaur). He was still a member

and=20
>> renewed his
>> >=3D

>> >glider license in 2014 that he had since his teenage-years.

If=20
>> confirmed,
>> >=3D
>> >this mass murderer is a stain on what we all believe is a=20
>> brotherhood of
>> >et=3D

>> >hical and morals-driven individuals. Using Occam's Razor,

the=20
>> explanation
>> >=3D

>> >given by the French prosecutors this morning is highly likely.
>> >I'm further troubled that this horrible act ended precisely on

what=20
>> the
>> >Fre=3D

>> >nch call "Le Parcours", a much beloved mountain range that

allows=20
>> fast and
>> >=3D

>> >long North-South glider flights along the French Alps. I had

a=20
>> wonderful
>> >gl=3D

>> >ider vacation in Barcelonnette, a couple of km from the crash

site. =20
>> This
>> >i=3D

>> >s all very sad. It must multiply the pain of the survivors of

those=20
>> on
>> >boa=3D
>> >rd.
>> >
>> >Herb
>> >
>>=20

>> One of the most idiotic posts I have seen in a long time.
>> 1) Not all the facts are out yet -your jumping the gun about

this=20

>> young man.
>> 2) Just because your a glider pilot does not make you whiter

than=20

>> white or make you in any way any ethically or morally superior

to=20

>> any other human being on this planet- indeed many glider

pilots=20

>> have been complicit in the past either directly or indirectly with

the=20

>> deaths of many, many more people than this. Whether you

feel=20

>> these deaths were justifiable depends usually on your politics.

>>=20

>> Personally it saddens me that mankind has not yet reached

the=20

>> stage where it cannot find other resolutions than violence to

sort out=20

>> differences, and can take a thing such as beautiful as flight and

use=20

>> it has a method of death and destruction. One can only hope

the=20

>> human race will one day grow up, before it annihilates itself.
>
>Paul, if holding yourself and the people you associate with to a
high

>stand=

>ard is idiotic then yes, I'm an idiot. Thanks for the name-calling
btw,

>ve=

>ry classy. Mankind has proven that it can "weaponize" nearly
every

>seeming=

>ly peaceful activity and flying gliders cannot be exempted. If
confirmed

>fu=

>rther by facts, the copilot's name will be added to the roster of

>mass-murd=

>erers and suicide bombers. The families of the victims, already
numb with

>p=

>ain, will be scarred for life by this crime.
>

Did not call you an idiot - I don't know you to make that judgement
- called your post idiotic.

I will reiterate. Just because your a glider pilot does not make you

in any way any ethically or morally superior to any other human

being on this planet, which appears to be you assumption.
Gliderpilot or not we are all fallible to the same weaknesses. I have
seen the full gamut of personality types in gliding that I have seen
in the wider world and if one thing that history has taught me is
that mankind is capable of the most incredibly heinous acts,
'gliderpilots' included.

I'm sorry but the ability to fly a motorless plane around the sky does
not grant you 'superpowers or a higher moral enlightenment', or
entrance into some' mythical brotherhood of superior beings' - as
you would seem to infer - that's just B/S.

Whilst this is an incredibly sad occurrence and one can feel for the
families affected, I will not condemn this young man, has you have
done - trail by media whilst common these days, is not my thing, I
would rather wait until all the facts are out - if indeed they ever will
be.. . and then try to understand not blame, banish, or condemn -
because ultimately that gets you no where.

[chip.b...@gmail.com]

Herb: I, too, was disturbed to read in the Wall Street Journal that Lubitz had a "passion for gliders and competitive running". Just like me. Responding to your critic, I think you qualified your remarks well; none of us yet knows what really happened but the official reports to date are horrifying.

It's true that we tend to think of fellow gliding pilots as ethical, with very high standards in many regards. The truth, as we all know, is that soaring is not perfect. We have our share of folks for whom integrity is sometimes practiced when it is convenient. We also have our share of enthusiasts who suffer from various physical and mental ailments. I suspect I'm not alone in saying that soaring has helped to keep me upbeat and healthy in times of acute stress in the past. But it's not a panacea.

I can't imagine the feelings of the families and loved ones of the victims, knowing not only how senseless and terribly unfair these deaths were but also what the passengers and crew must have felt in the moments before the crash.

I suspect there is not much for us to learn from this isolated tragedy, perhaps with a single exception. One of my daughters flew into Paris the morning of the crash from NYC. It was totally unrelated but it did remind me, as if I needed to be, how uncertain is life and how foolish it is to take anything for granted.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

[Dan Marotta]

I've read only one news item on this tragedy and the worst I got from it was the statement that breathing was heard on the CVR until impact.  Not being a physician, I'll defer judgment on the statement implying that the breathing did not sound like a heart attack.  I simply don't think there's been enough information released at this time to make any valid assumptions on what went wrong.  My own experience has been that both depressed persons and terrorists always make some sort of statement about their acts.

BTW, flying gliders makes me a better pilot, not necessarily a better person.

--
Dan Marotta

[Mike Schumann]

We may never know if this was a case of incapacitation, an intentional "mass murder" by this pilot, or a suicide by a very sick individual who never realized or cared about the carnage that he was creating. The key issue is that this scenario should not have been a surprise. There are ~150,000 commercial pilots in the world. In the US and Western Europe the average suicide rate is ~ 12 / 100,000 per year. It is inevitable that every year there are going to multiple cases of commercial pilots with suicidal tendencies that could result in this kind of incident. In the last 17 months we have witnessed three separate fatal aircraft crashes that apparently resulted from intentional acts by a crew member.

The problem is that the cockpit security precautions that were implemented as a result of the post 9/11 security hysteria have now created a new unanticipated vulnerability. In this new environment, where every hijack event is going to be vigorously fought by the crew and passengers, maybe armored cockpit doors are no longer a good idea.

[bumper]

On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 8:15:06 AM UTC-7, Paul T wrote:

>
> I will reiterate. Just because your a glider pilot does not make you
> in any way any ethically or morally superior to any other human
> being on this planet, which appears to be you assumption.
> Gliderpilot or not we are all fallible to the same weaknesses. I have
> seen the full gamut of personality types in gliding that I have seen
> in the wider world and if one thing that history has taught me is
> that mankind is capable of the most incredibly heinous acts,
> 'gliderpilots' included.
>
> I'm sorry but the ability to fly a motorless plane around the sky does
> not grant you 'superpowers or a higher moral enlightenment', or
> entrance into some' mythical brotherhood of superior beings' - as
> you would seem to infer - that's just B/S.
>
> Whilst this is an incredibly sad occurrence and one can feel for the
> families affected, I will not condemn this young man, has you have
> done - trail by media whilst common these days, is not my thing, I
> would rather wait until all the facts are out - if indeed they ever will
> be.. . and then try to understand not blame, banish, or condemn -
> because ultimately that gets you no where.

Actually, I do think pilots, on average, are above average. And glider pilots in particular, if for no other reason than the motivation, drive, commitment, intelligence, independence and self reliance that flight and soaring entails.

There's evidence we've been killing each other for thousands of years, and more probably since before our ancestors ventured out of the trees. During the last century we've simply found more efficient ways to do that. And your disappointed we have not come to the point of putting all that behind us? Really? Reality check, there's evil out there. And will be as long as there's greedy, power hungry people. To think violence will somehow end is pollyannaish to the extreme. The best we can hope for is to try to eliminate evil where we can, and endeavor to do right and good by others. And carry a gun.

I've been a cop in Oakland, CA, and had the opportunity to deal with a significant number of seriously bad people. Now I'm fortunate to know a lot of pilots. If you think these groups share anything near the same level of ethics, morals and just plain good human qualities, I was going to suggest you try to get out more. Upon reflection, belay that, be happy, find a campfire and join in the Kumbaya.

bumper

[PBA]

I think Paul's comments are missing the point of Herb's post. They are also mean spirited and remind me of trolling on youtube rather contributing to an active conversation this board is designed for.

Herb was just talking solidarity man, that's all. We as a community want to believe that those among us are good people; that other glider pilots share our value systems. Of course not all do, but speaking in generalizations, if I'm in a dark alley with a guy walking towards me, it would immediately put me at ease to know he was a glider pilot...

[Dan Marotta]

On 3/27/2015 6:33 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:

<snip>

The problem is that the cockpit security precautions that were implemented as a result of the post 9/11 security hysteria have now created a new unanticipated vulnerability. In this new environment, where every hijack event is going to be vigorously fought by the crew and passengers, maybe armored cockpit doors are no longer a good idea.

I thought I read that the aircraft has a keypad outside the cockpit door and, upon entry of the emergency override code, which the captain should have known, the door would unlock for a short time after a specific delay.

--
Dan Marotta

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I believe, "yes & no". The person in the cockpit can do a "full lock-out" which appears to be the case this time.

[richard wilkening]

I don't fly a 'bus, but I understand the cockpit door switch is three position- Open, Auto (outside keypad works), and locked (meaning no one gets in unless let in).

Here in the U.S. post 9/11, when one of us steps out of the cockpit, a FA or jump seater must stay in the cockpit with the pilot remaining. In case of an inflight emergency the pilot flying can handle it and the other member of crew can either assist or let the other pilot back in. In the hindsight of this case that seems like a good policy.

[marc....@gmail.com]

On Saturday, March 28, 2015 at 3:22:45 PM UTC-7, richard wilkening wrote:
> Here in the U.S. post 9/11, when one of us steps out of the cockpit, a FA or jump seater must stay in the cockpit with the pilot remaining. In case of an inflight emergency the pilot flying can handle it and the other member of crew can either assist or let the other pilot back in. In the hindsight of this case that seems like a good policy.

Of course, in the US, there is also a policy in place that allows pilots to bring firearms into the cockpit, so the presence of a second person may not make a whole lot of difference in this sort of case...

[Dan Marotta]

...Unless the armed pilot is NOT the one trying to crash the plane.

--
Dan Marotta

[marc....@gmail.com]

On Saturday, March 28, 2015 at 5:39:32 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> ...Unless the armed pilot is NOT the one trying to crash the plane.

That would be the "good guys" can hold it longer theory...

[lloydban...@gmail.com]

29 years of Airline Flying has taught me that the FAA and Congress over-react to these kinds of very troubling events. We now have a 1500hr plus an ATP rating before a pilot can be hired to fly Regionals or Major Airlines. This came about as a result of the Cogan Air crash in Buffalo, NY. Of course it didn't matter that BOTH pilots on that ill-fated flight had over 2000 hours each. I can only imagine what they will come up with, to prevent another Germanwings type crash. I'm guessing they will require that each cockpit must included an UZI carrying Security Guard who at least a GED and have the ability to shoot at close range. Seriously, the Germanwings First Officer should have never been near an airline cockpit. The same shrinks that examined him as part of his pre-employment are the same professions who are at this very moment trying to convince airline management that they should be part of an on-going evaluation of current airline pilots. Imagine airline management looking at this proposal and how they can use it to get rid of a pilot union officer who is constantly pushing back at an over-reaching and heavy handed management.

[gku...@gmail.com]

I think this case has many interesting leads:

- Should the airline pilot be hired by an employment agency? And can you expect loyalty from such an employee?
- Should the airline be allowed to outsource its flights to another company? Personally I always avoided flying United... operated by... type of flights. I think this kind of practice is misleading to customers and should be outlawed long time ago.
- FO pay, which in many cases is rock bottom with the tendency of digging even lower.

Think about next time you buy an airline ticket, because we as customers feed this chimera. The government had already proven working in the best interest of corporations not customers, by allowing all recent airline mergers.

[Roy Clark, "B6"]

36 years of involvement in the psychiatric assessment of professionals whose work requires safety to the public (healthcare, legal, law enforcement, ATP, commercial, and private-rated pilots, air flight crew members, and those who work with WMD [weapons of mass destruction]) has taught me there is no perfect reaction to these events. The Colgan flight 3407 event occurred about 6 months after the FAA have noted concern regarding an apparent lack of a healthy safety culture sufficient to threaten to revoke Colgan's operating certificate. Despite their flight experience, the actions of both pilots involved sank to the level of their inadequate training. The resulting rules did NOT change the general requirement of 1,500 hours flight time for an ATP rating. The NTSB also expressed concerns about pilot fatigue and failure to maintain a sterile cockpit focus in a clearly critical flight environment. To date, I am not aware of medical data to indicate that Andreas Lubitz would NOT have been qualified, even in the US under FAR 67.107, at the time of hire. None of any "shink" involved could have recommended he not be hired.
(Remember, the slang root of "shrink" is "head shrinker" referring to attempts to reduce the head (ego) of those whose self-assessment is excessive and well-beyond reality). Those "shrinks" are already involved in the on-going evaluation of current airline pilots with identified mental health or substance abuse issues via FAR 67.107. Personally, I would prefer my pilot union officer to be focused on pushing back on any over-reaching and heavy-handed management effort to dilute air crew training requirements or meeting lawfully-enacted regulations and supporting both self- and peer-reporting of concerns about possible unstable mental health functioning.

[bucc...@gmail.com]

A second pilot should always be mandatory whenever passengers pay for safe transport for many multiple reasons

[bucc...@gmail.com]

Please don't equate religion with depression. Religion is about faith before action and focused on better life despite pain and suffering. Faith is about moving forward despite pain. I'm an optimist because of faith

[kru...@sbcglobal.net]

On Sunday, March 29, 2015 at 11:57:46 AM UTC-7, Roy Clark, "B6" wrote:
> 36 years of involvement in the psychiatric assessment of professionals whose work requires safety to the public (healthcare, legal, law enforcement, ATP, commercial, and private-rated pilots, air flight crew members, and those who work with WMD [weapons of mass destruction]) has taught me there is no perfect reaction to these events. The Colgan flight 3407 event occurred about 6 months after the FAA have noted concern regarding an apparent lack of a healthy safety culture sufficient to threaten to revoke Colgan's operating certificate. Despite their flight experience, the actions of both pilots involved sank to the level of their inadequate training. The resulting rules did NOT change the general requirement of 1,500 hours flight time for an ATP rating. The NTSB also expressed concerns about pilot fatigue and failure to maintain a sterile cockpit focus in a clearly critical flight environment. To date, I am not aware of medical data to indicate that Andreas Lubitz would NOT have been qualified, even in the US under FAR 67.107, at the time of hire. None of any "shink" involved could have recommended he not be hired.
> (Remember, the slang root of "shrink" is "head shrinker" referring to attempts to reduce the head (ego) of those whose self-assessment is excessive and well-beyond reality). Those "shrinks" are already involved in the on-going evaluation of current airline pilots with identified mental health or substance abuse issues via FAR 67.107. Personally, I would prefer my pilot union officer to be focused on pushing back on any over-reaching and heavy-handed management effort to dilute air crew training requirements or meeting lawfully-enacted regulations and supporting both self- and peer-reporting of concerns about possible unstable mental health functioning.

The requirement for the 1500 hour ATP is the same (you misunderstood my post) what HAS CHANGED is the requirement to HOLD AN ATP TO FLY FOR A REGIONAL OR MAJOR AIRLINE. This new requirement, which was a knee-jerk reaction to the COGAN AIR crash has capped off the pipeline for cheap labor. No longer can the regionals expect a constant flow of 250 hour CFI's to fill their cockpits and thus putting downward pressure on wages for these Regional FO's.
You mentioned self or peer reporting. Might I suggest that since this already exists in the airline world, that it starts with the Mental Health Professionals. It would go a long way in weeding out, oh let's call them "free spirits" who seem to flock to the profession. Pilots Unions have a "Professional Standards" Committee. It is very effective with dealing with unprofessional behavior. Screening Airline Pilots in an ongoing basis will not solve what happened to Germanwings. It's going to take a high-tech solution. Satellite based system to override the door locking systems. The system will need to require a system similar to how we operate our missile defense systems - two people with separate codes etc.

[Mike Schumann]

A high tech solution might just introduce new unanticipated threats into the system. One positive low tech step in the right direction is to eliminate the ability of a pilot to disable the keypad from unlocking the door.

As far as the 1,500 hour rule, that will certainly put pressure on the airlines to increase starting pay. However, these pay increases probably won't be enough to compensate for the increase training costs that the rule imposes on new pilots. The end result may well be that new pilots will tend to come from well off families who can pay the training. Other kids, who really have a passion and above average aptitude for flying will be further blocked from the profession. While the new pilots may have more hours, the actual airmanship skill level might significantly decrease. More unintended consequences that no one bothered to think thru.

[kru...@sbcglobal.net]

> A high tech solution might just introduce new unanticipated threats into the system. One positive low tech step in the right direction is to eliminate the ability of a pilot to disable the keypad from unlocking the door.
>
> As far as the 1,500 hour rule, that will certainly put pressure on the airlines to increase starting pay. However, these pay increases probably won't be enough to compensate for the increase training costs that the rule imposes on new pilots. The end result may well be that new pilots will tend to come from well off families who can pay the training. Other kids, who really have a passion and above average aptitude for flying will be further blocked from the profession. While the new pilots may have more hours, the actual airmanship skill level might significantly decrease. More unintended consequences that no one bothered to think thru.

If the pilot is unable to lock out the door, then how do you keep the bad guys out of the cockpit? Remember, the who purpose of the "lock-out" capability is to defend against the terrorist who knows the "secret" code to open the door when it is locked. The "secret code" is different than the code that is used to go in or out.

[Don Johnstone]

Religion and depression have many similarities. Both have elements of
altered response to reality, both can lead to actions which have no basis
in logic, both can lead to harm being caused to others.
The big difference is that nobody wants depression, it is forced on them.
People with depression do not want it and most would do anything to get rid
of it. Religion on the other hand is a choice, which makes it a far worse
disease and is far more dangerous to man.
Who in their right mind would believe in a God who allowed this tragedy to
happen, what kind of capricious, mean minded, stupid God would see anything
good in this. Religion encourages fanatics and the world would be better
off without them and Him.

[Don Johnstone]

At 22:27 29 March 2015, bucc...@gmail.com wrote:

[Jonathon May]

At 09:59 30 March 2015, Don Johnstone wrote:
>At 22:27 29 March 2015, bucc...@gmail.com wrote:
>>Please don't equate religion with depression. Religion is about faith
>>before action and focused on better life despite pain and suffering

>Faith
>>is about moving forward despite pain. I'm an optimist because of faith
>
>Religion and depression have many similarities. Both have elements o

>altered response to reality, both can lead to actions which have no basi

>in logic, both can lead to harm being caused to others.
>The big difference is that nobody wants depression, it is forced on them

>People with depression do not want it and most would do anything to get
ri

>of it. Religion on the other hand is a choice, which makes it a far wors

>disease and is far more dangerous to man.
>Who in their right mind would believe in a God who allowed this tragedy t

>happen, what kind of capricious, mean minded, stupid God would see
anythin

>good in this. Religion encourages fanatics and the world would be bette

>off without them and Him.
>
>

I find myself agreeing with Don !!

However, if you accept the concept that dogs think of there owners as gods

,what do fighting dogs (pit bulls etc) think of there owners ?

The whole Germanwings thing is a tradgedy and not to be taken lightly ,I am

not sure if we can legislate to prevent a repeat but looking out for your
friends and colleagues and don't be shy of saying something if you think
there is a problem is probably the best way.

On the UK uras site there is a posting from a guy who was grounded because

of bi-polar 10 years ago ,at the time he was quite bitter and made some
postings reflecting that.He now sees how dangerous he was and has posted
thanking those that stopped him.
The benefit of hind site is only available if your still there to look
back

[Mike Schumann]

Since 9/11 the threat has changed. There hasn't been a successful Hijacking yet (except by pilots). Every attempt has been blocked by an immediate response by the crew and passengers to subdue to bad guy(s). The need for secure cockpit doors has passed.

[Don Johnstone]

At 12:48 30 March 2015, Mike Schumann wrote:

>Since 9/11 the threat has changed. There hasn't been a successful

>Hijackin=

>g yet (except by pilots). Every attempt has been blocked by an immediate

>r=

>esponse by the crew and passengers to subdue to bad guy(s). The need for

>s=
>ecure cockpit doors has passed.
>
No it has not. Unauthorised access to the flight deck is still the greater
threat, still is potentially more harmful and more likely than any of the
other problems which occur in flight. The current incident is rare, very
rare as is a mechanical failure or mistake by the flight crew resulting in
a crash. The only reason there are fewer hi-jackings is that it has been
made too difficult.

[Bruce Hoult]

I agree with Mike Schumann. Passengers will never again allow hijackers to take over and kill them. The armoured cockpit door is unnecessary.

Worse than that, it is harmful.

There have been half a dozen crashes in the last 15 years cause by pilots going rogue. Just a year ago there was (most likely) MH370.

[Martin Gregorie]

On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 07:51:26 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:

> There have been half a dozen crashes in the last 15 years cause by
> pilots going rogue. Just a year ago there was (most likely) MH370.
>

I can only think of one very probable (German Wings[*]) and one possible
(MH370). Can you give references for the rest?

[*] AFAIK the only evidence so far is from the cockpit voice recorder,
reporting that nothing was said inside the cockpit during the descent or
that terrain proximity warnings were triggered. So at present, I'm not
inclined to accept that as more than very probable cause until data from
the hardware monitoring black box(es) confirm intentional control use and/
or that the terrain proximity warning was disarmed. One report had words
to the effect that 'the autopilot was reset from 38,000 ft to 100 ft' but
I've not seen anything to show this is anything but some reporter's
imagination.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Benedict Smith]

Martin,
Have a look at the flightradar 24 forum,
http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/8650-We-have-analysed-the-raw-
data-from-the-transponder-of-4U9525-and-found-some-more-data
They detail how this was found and have also released the raw data so
anyone can check it.
Ben.

[Mike Schumann]

There have been 3 fatal airline accidents in the last 17 months that appear to be the result of pilot suicides. How many hijackings have there been?

[ND]

WELP... that's enough of the internet for me today...

[Don Johnstone]

Is your memory really that short?

[Martin Gregorie]

On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 17:05:44 +0000, Benedict Smith wrote:

> At 16:47 30 March 2015, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>I've not seen anything to show this is anything but some reporter's
>>imagination.

> Have a look at the flightradar 24 forum,
> http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/8650-We-have-analysed-the-raw-
> data-from-the-transponder-of-4U9525-and-found-some-more-data They detail
> how this was found and have also released the raw data so anyone can
> check it.
> Ben.
>

Thanks for that.

I didn't know that Mode S would carry that sort of data: presumably its
there as a way to spot a fat-fingered an altitude change setting.

[lloydban...@gmail.com]

That Airbus had CPDLC and ADS. That gives the European controlers the ability to "See" exactly what is set in the FMC and I believe the MCP. And I seriously doubt it was Fat-fingered to descend to that low altitude. I am fairly certain that the conclusion of the investigators is what happened.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 12:56:07 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:

/*acronym alert */

Mode-S in a sufficiently configured aircraft will reply to UF20 (uplink format 20) request for different BDS (Binary Data Store) register contents, like in this case a BDS register containing vertical intent (aka A/P altitude select) data. You will only see those replies from the aircraft when the ground based Mode-S interrogator asks for it, typically as part of a Mode-S EHS (Enhanced Surveillance) facility. EHS like this is is used in many locations in Europe, Unfortunately not used in the USA.

Mode S can potentially transmit a lot of detail about a suitably configured aircraft and it's operation. Another example is that Mode-S is used as part of TCAS-II to coordinate TCAS-II resolution advisories between two TCAS-II equipped aircraft (so for example both don't get told to climb into each other). Those Mode-S broadcasts can be monitored from the ground and controllers (at least in principle) alerted to an aircraft's TCAS-II system issuing a RAs.

Even Mode-S transponders used in gliders, like the Trig TT-21 and TT-22 are Level 2 transponders and so will can reply to UF20 requests, but the Vertical Intent register won't contain data...

The data that ADS-B actually transmits also comes from (different) BDS registers (containing just basic aircraft specs, pressure altitude and GPS data), but is relatively limited and certainly does not include the Vertical Intent data.

A good article is at http://defenseelectronicsmag.com/site-files/defenseelectronicsmag.com/files/archive/rfdesign.com/mag/512RFDSF3.pdf

[Tony Clark]

Posted by Tony Clark : Bipolar UK glider pilot (now ex pilot)

Re : u.r.a.s post 28th March

Title :- Germanwings compared to my BGA case.

Thanks for your comments Jonathon May (post 34) and Don Johnstone (post
33).

Not very correct in detail, Jonathon, but you did absorb one of the basic
concepts . . that I was bitter at the time of being denied passenger
clearance by the BGA medic, after the club CFI had cleared me 'technically'
. but I now view this (over a decade later) as a generous judgement by Dr
Peter Saunby (the BGA Medical Advisor) since he was enlightened enough to
allow me to continue single-seat flying, albeit only from one nominated UK
club site only.

It was very unfortunate that I later 'wrote off' our jointly owned Vega
syndicate sailplane during a badly judged outlanding, indirectly caused by
my bipolar condition (see my u.r.a.s post re details) . . but this could
obviously have been 'maybe' taking my granddaughter for an ASK21 flight . .
Peter Saundby was proved correct.

However, the main point of my post was amazement that the German commercial
pilot was cleared to fly, not one passenger, as in my case, but thousands
of passengers, after 18 months of 'depression' in 2009.

May I urge r.a.s contributors to read Dr Peter Saundby's response to my
initial post . . his explanation of the German medical confidentiality laws
are both incredulous and frighening.

At that time (over a decade ago) Don Johnstone and I spoke privately by
email, of matters 'bipolar', and he was very supportive, knowing as he
does, much more about the bipolar condition than 99% of the population.

[Tony Clark]

NOW RESUBMITTED TO INCLUDE THE WHOLE OF MY MESSAGE :-

[Bruce Hoult]

On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 5:48:37 AM UTC+13, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 07:51:26 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>
> > There have been half a dozen crashes in the last 15 years cause by
> > pilots going rogue. Just a year ago there was (most likely) MH370.
> >
> I can only think of one very probable (German Wings[*]) and one possible
> (MH370). Can you give references for the rest?

You can easily google a number of articles. Here's one from before MH370

http://www.ibtimes.com/pilot-suicide-when-its-captain-who-crashes-plane-1519756

> [*] AFAIK the only evidence so far is from the cockpit voice recorder,
> reporting that nothing was said inside the cockpit during the descent or
> that terrain proximity warnings were triggered. So at present, I'm not
> inclined to accept that as more than very probable cause until data from
> the hardware monitoring black box(es) confirm intentional control use and/
> or that the terrain proximity warning was disarmed. One report had words
> to the effect that 'the autopilot was reset from 38,000 ft to 100 ft' but
> I've not seen anything to show this is anything but some reporter's
> imagination.

I've previous reported here that this was shown by Mode S data automatically received and stored (as they do for every flight in the world within range) by the FlightRadar24.com web site. Are you suggesting that FlightRadar24 have falsified the data for some reason?

[Don Johnstone]

At 17:44 30 March 2015, Mike Schumann wrote:

>
>There have been 3 fatal airline accidents in the last 17 months that
appear
>to be the result of pilot suicides. How many hijackings have there been?

There is no evidence as yet to prove, beyond reasonable doubt that the
above statement is at all true.
In the case of MH370 there is very little evidence to support any cause.
The fact that the aircraft appeared to continue at altitude, in the wrong
direction for a long time would seem to indicate that the crew was
incapacitated or dead. The most likely cause of that would have to be lack
of Oxygen. The circumstances would also tend to show that the passengers
suffered the same fate as the crew. There is little or no evidence that the
cause of the disappearance was a deliberate act.
The same applies to the current case. There is evidence to show that the
co-pilot did some very strange things, took actions which were unexpected.
There is no evidence to show that he did this "deliberately". We are in a
position where we think we know but really we do not.
We do however know that terrorists gained access to the cockpits of
airliners and deliberately crashed them into buildings, do you remember
that Mike? In those cases we know what happened because there is evidence
which confirms it.
As with all air accidents the conspiracy nuts and speculators are in
hyperdrive. Until we know for certain what occurred it would be stupid to
reverse an action which we know prevents a known threat. If it is shown
that pilot suicide is a greater threat than terrorists taking over an
aircraft then that will be the time to consider making changes.

[John Galloway]

At 09:33 31 March 2015, Don Johnstone wrote:
>At 17:44 30 March 2015, Mike Schumann wrote:
>
>>
>>There have been 3 fatal airline accidents in the last 17 months tha

>appear
>>to be the result of pilot suicides. How many hijackings have there
been?
>
>There is no evidence as yet to prove, beyond reasonable doubt that
th

>above statement is at all true.
>In the case of MH370 there is very little evidence to support any
cause

>The fact that the aircraft appeared to continue at altitude, in the
wron

>direction for a long time would seem to indicate that the crew wa

>incapacitated or dead. The most likely cause of that would have to
be lac

>of Oxygen. The circumstances would also tend to show that the
passenger

>suffered the same fate as the crew. There is little or no evidence
that th

>cause of the disappearance was a deliberate act.
>The same applies to the current case. There is evidence to show
that th

>co-pilot did some very strange things, took actions which were
unexpected

>There is no evidence to show that he did this "deliberately". We are
in

>position where we think we know but really we do not.
>We do however know that terrorists gained access to the cockpits o

>airliners and deliberately crashed them into buildings, do you
remembe

>that Mike? In those cases we know what happened because there is
evidenc

>which confirms it.
>As with all air accidents the conspiracy nuts and speculators are i

>hyperdrive. Until we know for certain what occurred it would be
stupid t

>reverse an action which we know prevents a known threat. If it is
show

>that pilot suicide is a greater threat than terrorists taking over a

>aircraft then that will be the time to consider making changes.
>

Are you suggesting that the Malaysian and German investigators are
conspiracy nuts, Don?

[Don Johnstone]

Absolutely not John, in fact the contrary. They know more than us. All we
have are a lot of "facts" which may or may not have been invented by the
media. The investigators have released some "facts" but no conclusions. The
"facts" that we have may be related or not, even if they exist, but even if
they are indeed facts they are not sufficient to support any definite
conclusion. As far as I am aware the investigators in both cases have not
reached any conclusion. The media have, but their priority is increasing
their profits, not ascertaining the truth. The conclusions being bandied
about at present are formulated by journalists who are well known for not
letting the truth get in the way of a good story, which feeds the
conspiracy nuts and speculators, which gives the journalists more to write
about, which feeds ............ ad nauseum.

[Martin Gregorie]

I didn't mean to suggest that it was, especially as there don't seem to
have been any altitude change requests sent by either pilot or ATC: more
that, with the close stacked enroute clearances currently in use it would
be sensible for ATC to cause the system to read back what was actually
set if they'd asked the pilot to change altitude.

However, Don's reference to MH370 and one of the causes that has been put
forward for that crash does suggest a more benign reason for the A320's
altitude change: if the pilot became anoxic, realised a bit too late and
lost conciousness while he was lowering the cruise altitude, mis-setting
it as a result.

[Martin Gregorie]

On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 19:34:25 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:

>
> http://www.ibtimes.com/pilot-suicide-when-its-captain-who-crashes-
plane-1519756
>
And what did the official accident report show?

> I've previous reported here that this was shown by Mode S data
> automatically received and stored (as they do for every flight in the
> world within range) by the FlightRadar24.com web site. Are you
> suggesting that FlightRadar24 have falsified the data for some reason?
>

I'd forgotten you mentioned that: the item I found didn't say how the
setting change was known outside the aircraft. The main black boxes still
haven't been found according to anything I've seen heard or read so far.

But that's only one crash: where are the official reports for the other
16 you identify? Newspaper reports don't count.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, April 1, 2015 at 1:38:13 AM UTC+13, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> However, Don's reference to MH370 and one of the causes that has been put
> forward for that crash does suggest a more benign reason for the A320's
> altitude change: if the pilot became anoxic, realised a bit too late and
> lost conciousness while he was lowering the cruise altitude, mis-setting
> it as a result.

It would be a big mystery how the young guy in the cockpit was anoxic (and just happened to misset the autopilot AND lock the door), while the older guy in the passenger cabin was perfectly ok and demanding to be let back in.

As for MH370 .. as I recall it turned back, descended, flew low over the mainland, and then climbed back to a normal cruise altitude, while starting to follow a precise route via 3 or 4 standard navigation points (that had NOTHING to do with their route), until it was out of radar range, when it (supposedly) turned to the southern Indian Ocean and oblivion.

That's a heck of a lot of carefully coordinated seemingly purposeful things for a hypoxic pilot to do accidentally. Boggles the mind, it does.

[Martin Gregorie]

On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 05:51:52 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:

> As for MH370 .. as I recall it turned back, descended, flew low over the
> mainland, and then climbed back to a normal cruise altitude, while
> starting to follow a precise route via 3 or 4 standard navigation points
> (that had NOTHING to do with their route), until it was out of radar
> range, when it (supposedly) turned to the southern Indian Ocean and
> oblivion.
>

Not from what I saw and read. It turned left over the South China Sea at
after hand-off from Malaysian ATC and without contacting Vietnamese ATC
and turned off its transponder. Then it flew a course that crossed the
Malaysian peninsular more or less over the Malay-Thai border without, it
seems, maintained its cruising altitude and course until it went out of
military radar range. All the accounts I've seen agree about that much.

That course, if held until it ran out of fuel, would have put it quite a
lot further west than the main search area, which seems to have been
chosen from satellite data without taking a lot of notice of the
military radar plot.

> That's a heck of a lot of carefully coordinated seemingly purposeful
> things for a hypoxic pilot to do accidentally. Boggles the mind, it
> does.
>

It would if thats what happened. However, its been pointed out that
military radars, especially at or near their max range, are much better
and recording range and direction than they are at height. No transponder
height available, remember, and the military radar trace is the only
trace available at that stage of the flight.

[Bob Pasker]

On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 8:30:13 AM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:

> As far as I am aware the investigators in both cases have not
> reached any conclusion. The media have, but their priority is increasing
> their profits, not ascertaining the truth.

that's a fairly cynical view of the media, and although there's plenty of that going on, responsible media organizations (not their ad businesses) report news, and their priority is scoops, not profits.

--bob

[Dan Marotta]

"responsible media organizations"  Now there's an oxymoron...    Please name one and be prepared to back up your claim with facts, not opinions.

--
Dan Marotta

[Bob Pasker]

you've already made up your mind, so i won't waste my time or yours

[Don Johnstone]

OK if I accept your assertion that their priority is scoops, how does that
increase the veracity of their stories? I would contend that it does
exactly the opposite and in any case the "scoop" is very definitely linked
to their increase in income and therefore profit.
There is no such thing as a completely accurate and factual press report
and honest reporters are as rare as rocking horse turd.

[Bob Pasker]

of course there's no such thing as 'completely actual and factual press report' any more than there is a perfect glider pilot.

the question is what happens when things go wrong. Responsible journalists and outlets continue to self-criticize and correct. if you have never seen such a thing, the NY TImes' Public Editor is one example:

http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/about-the-public-editor/

[Dan Marotta]

Really?  Now there's a cop out if I've ever heard one.  I am always open to the truth and willing to change my mind and I'm rather disappointed at your response, though not surprised.

--
Dan Marotta

[Bob Pasker]

"though not surprised"

undeserved cheap shot

[Paul T]

At 22:52 02 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:
>"though not surprised"
>
>undeserved cheap shot
>
>On Thursday, April 2, 2015 at 5:53:52 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta
wrote:

>> Really?=A0 Now there's a cop out if I've ever heard one.=A0 I

am always
>> open to the truth and willing to change my mind and I'm
rather
>> disappointed at your response, though not surprised.

>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20

>> On 4/2/2015 5:56 AM, Bob Pasker wrote:

>>=20
>> =20
>> =20

>> you've already made up your mind, so i won't waste my
time or yours

>>=20

>> On Wednesday, April 1, 2015 at 11:21:52 AM UTC-4, Dan
Marotta wrote:

>>=20
>> =20
>> "responsible media organizations"=A0 Now there's an
oxymoron...=
>=A0 =A0

>> Please name one and be prepared to back up your claim with
facts,
>> not opinions.

>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20

>> On 3/31/2015 3:26 PM, Bob Pasker wrote:

>>=20
>> =20
>> =20

>> On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 8:30:13 AM UTC-4, Don
Johnstone

>wrote=
>:
>>=20
>>=20
>> =20

>> As far as I am aware the investigators in both cases have
not
>> reached any conclusion. The media have, but their priority is
increasing

>> their profits, not ascertaining the truth.=20
>>=20
>> =20

>> that's a fairly cynical view of the media, and although
there's

>ple=

>nty of that going on, responsible media organizations (not their ad

>busines=

>ses) report news, and their priority is scoops, not profits.

>>=20
>> --bob
>>=20
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>> --=20
>>=20
>> Dan Marotta
>>=20
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>> --=20
>>=20
>> Dan Marotta
>

There is a word in the English language - 'alleged' or even
'allegedly' I wish News reporters and journalists, and others would
use it, until something has been proven in a court of law. That is
what we have the law for - trial by media disgust and repulses me
and does nothing for the credulity of journalism as a profession.
'Innocent until proven guilty' is a concept which appears to have
disappeared.

Quite frankly I am utterly disgusted by the way not only this news
item but many others has been reported in recent years -standards
are far, far lower than they used to be and my opinion of journalists
and news media these days is even lower than it used to be.

[Bob Pasker]

I think its unfair to lump every journalist and every news outlet into the same category, just as its unfair to lump every glider pilot into the same category.

unlike the China and the former Soviet Union, we have a wide variety of media outlets, and you have a choice as to which ones you're going to read.

For example, the WSJ reported

"BERLIN--Germanwings co-pilot Andreas Lubitz researched suicide methods and the technology behind cockpit doors days before he allegedly slammed an airliner into the French Alps, the German prosecutor in charge of the case said Thursday, indicating some preparation possibly went into the crash."

note the use of "allegedly" and the authoritative source, the lead prosecutor in the case.

this is the gold standard for journalism

http://www.wsj.com/articles/andreas-lubitz-searched-internet-for-suicide-methods-prosecutor-says-1427986155

[Bob Pasker]

its also worth reading the coverage of Germany's reaction to Bild's reporting on the Germanwings tragedy.

"A brief notice issued by a German gas station stating that it will stop selling the tabloid Bild after its sensationalist coverage of the Germanwings crash, is gaining colossal resonance. Increasing numbers of retailers are removing it from their stands.

What started with a Facebook entry by ARAL station in the town of Bendorf, Rhineland-Palatinate, is now going viral with the original post getting more that 100k 'likes' in less than a week."


http://rt.com/news/246417-boycott-bild-germany-germanwings/

[Peter von Tresckow]

That is actually pretty awesome. The Bild "Zeitung" makes the NY post look
downright reasonable sometimes.

Pete

[Mike Schumann]

The Bild Zeitung is the German equivalent of the National Enquirer. That doesn't mean that these types of publications can't occasionally do some decent reporting. A number of years ago the NY Times did a study of the press coverage of the OJ Simpson murder case. They found that the National Enquirer had by far the most scoops and the most accurate coverage of any of the media covering the story.

There are certain types of stories (sleaze and celebrities) where these kind of publications know how to get the stories (not necessarily by commonly acceptable practices).

[IA DPE]

I find it repulsive how the "facts," as they are "known" today, are presented daily if not hourly.

As opposed to waiting until the whole picture is known, they provide sound bites for the media so as to prove they are doing something and make their department look good (and presumably worthy of increased funding). This suits the media well as they prefer provided sound bites as opposed to real research and fact checking.

BTW I'm not picking on the French- the Asiana accident here in SFO was the same. Thankfully the outcome was better.

May The Lord have mercy on their souls.

[Bob Pasker]

again, it depends on the media outlet. if you like slow news, read a weekly.

[IA DPE]

It's not that I like slow news so much as accurate.

These people look for any nugget of information (though not always fact checked) which is promptly disseminated as the gospel. I'd rather hear nothing than falsehoods and half truths.

[Mike Schumann]

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 11:02:28 PM UTC-4, IA DPE wrote:
> It's not that I like slow news so much as accurate.
>
> These people look for any nugget of information (though not always fact checked) which is promptly disseminated as the gospel. I'd rather hear nothing than falsehoods and half truths.

In relation to this accident, exactly what kind of falsehoods and half truths have you been hearing?

[Bob Pasker]

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 11:02:28 PM UTC-4, IA DPE wrote:
> It's not that I like slow news so much as accurate.
>
> These people look for any nugget of information (though not always fact checked) which is promptly disseminated as the gospel. I'd rather hear nothing than falsehoods and half truths.

well, then you still have a variety of news outlets to choose from, and you should pick one that reports accurately, such as the one in my post from a week ago:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.aviation.soaring/ZBOet6BnqTY/-GFYsu3kWCkJ