Brooks Cambium C-17 First Look

[Robert F. Harrison]

I was chosen as one of the first 100 folks to receive a Brooks Cambium C-17 saddle. Mine just arrived today and while I haven't yet mounted it on a bike (probably my daily ride, the Hunq), I did take some pictures to "prove it happened."

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mgps-bob/sets/72157633977211833/

I generally ride the B-17 model and I've got a bunch of those in standard, Special, and the new Select. The C-17 definitely feels lighter (though of course that's not really a concern). It also is made with less material than a B-17 and doesn't have the 'skirting' down the sides. Since it doesn't feel as 'slick' as worn leather I wondering if it'll grab the inside of my pant legs. I guess we'll find out.

The overall look of the saddle is pleasing and I'm sure it'll look nice on my Hunq (or QB). I was sent one in 'natural' and I'm pretty sure it's going to get dirty quick...I've heard that from one of the other testers who read an blog entry I wrote when I was informed I'd been chosen.

Unfortunately I've to run a non-bike errand right now so mounting it and the first ride will have to come a bit later. I'm thinking I should just mount it and and then swap seat posts between my Hunq and my QB to give it workout on both bikes. 

While the first 100 have been chosen and probably have all received their saddles (living in Hawaii I'm probably one of the last to receive the shipment), the did open it up by 50 more. I don't know if they've been chosen but Brooks did suggest everyone sign up because one could be chosen for other products. The sign-up page is still open at:

http://www.brooksengland.com/cambium/

Aloha!

Bob

--
Robert Harrison

Honolulu, HI
rfhar...@gmail.com
statrix.com

[Michael]

Thanks for those pics Bob.

I think they are trying to make it their waterproof saddle or something?

Let us know how it rides/feels.

 

Can you post an eye level profile shot so we can see the contour of the seat top from the rear to nose?

Also an eye level pic of back of saddle to see the shape of the arc of the saddle top from left to right?

 

Just if you have time. Thanks. 

[Robert F. Harrison]

Okay...I managed to actually get out for a about a mile. Sigh.

Naturally enough after I'd spent some time taking off the saddlebag and my Brooks B-17 Select off my Hunqapillar and putting on the C-17 I discovered my front tire had flatted. I guess I was lucky to make it home because I hadn't noticed anything. I'm also using Schwalbe Marathons with Green Guard and rarely ever have a problem with those tires.

Sure enough I found a bent nail protruding from the tire. I haven't found the hole in the tube yet (though I know where it HAS to be). In truth I didn't really look hard, just cleared the tire, slapped in a new tube, pumped it up and ...

My first ride on the C-17. As it was already getting late and I'd had tire issues I didn't really have time to do more than cycle around my block and neighboring blocks a few times. 

The saddle is comfortable. It feels to me like a slightly smaller B-17, but it still fit my bones and I'm a big guy so no problems there. It feels broken in already and yes, the saddle is slightly springy, more so than a new Select, probably about the same as a new Standard (which seem much 'looser' to me, but then the leather is thinner I think). 

I wondered about the angle of the C-17 and whether I'd need to keep the nose up as I do with B-17s and yes, I did have to make sure the nose is up a bit. I haven't quite adjusted it perfectly yet, but it's pretty good. I did try it with the nose even and it's not good for me at all in the same way a B-17 isn't at that angle.

I did take some more photos but I'm not sure I followed instructions. :-(

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mgps-bob/sets/72157633979190099/

On the whole it felt fine and while I need to fine tune the position I think I'll be happy with it. I can't say if I'll keep it on the Hunq for long, but it'll find a spot. Right now I'm thinking I may put it on my Bike Friday when I prep that for RAGBRAI 2013. 

As for the C-17 being waterproof...yeah, I guess it is. But honestly I live in Honolulu where we get a fair bit of rain. I've never left my bike out in the rain without a cover on the saddle, but all of my leather saddles have gotten wet, damp, moist, splashed, sweated on and over, and in the end, they are all fine. I'm not sure I see the need for a waterproof Brooks (other than marketing), but I'm glad to have a chance to try one.

I'll be commuting on it tomorrow and hopefully either Saturday or Sunday I can put on some miles and really give it a fair test.

So far so good. 

Aloha,

Bob

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[Ron Mc]

it's certainly a departure, but a classy-looking saddle nontheless.  Does ride like it need break-in?  Looking forward to a 200 or 300-mi report.  Thanks.  

[Matthew J]

Thanks for this review and pictures.  Definitely plan to get one. 

[Garth]

Oh man .... Brooks went thru all that to make a wonderful new idea in a saddle ... and they persist in using short rails !  Say it ain't so !!!  

[Montclair BobbyB]

Wow... I LIKE the look so far... I guess only time and prolonged usage will tell how it stacks up to their leather saddles.  Good luck... keep the pics and reports coming.

[Joe Bernard]

Ok, I guess I'm the one that's going to have to break the news. Brooks leather saddles are one of the few perfect products in looks and function in the world. This thing is ugly.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Michael]

Thanks for the pics. I see the contours now.

 

So, the saddle looks like it is made out of metal, rubber, and plastic, and whatever the cloth is on top?

 

Did it stick to your clothes like you thought it would?

[Garth]

It's rubber and "special" cotton canvas Michael .  I'm pretty darn sure they've tested it out so it's not going to stick odd stuff like that. This "testing" program is not really a test, it's more of a promo first .  Seeing it's going to be released in a matter of days , and people are just getting their "test" saddles .... it doesn't leave any time for "testing" !!

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2013-06-07 at 14:06 -0700, Garth wrote:
>
> It's rubber and "special" cotton canvas Michael . I'm pretty darn
> sure they've tested it out so it's not going to stick odd stuff like
> that. This "testing" program is not really a test, it's more of a
> promo first . Seeing it's going to be released in a matter of days ,
> and people are just getting their "test" saddles .... it doesn't leave
> any time for "testing" !!

It's got us talking about it, so at least that part's working.

[Garth]

OT, And I REALLY do wish there was an editor for our replies so we can correct misspellings, instead of deleting and reposting !!!

[Ron Mc]

yep it's embarrassssing

[Matthew J]

>Ok, I guess I'm the one that's going to have to break the news. Brooks leather saddles are one of the few perfect products in looks and function in the world. 

Not perfect for the cow missing its skin.  (in any event, Berthoud are hands down better leather saddles than current Brooks)

>This thing is ugly.

I like the looks.  To each their own I guess.

[Robert F. Harrison]

I've had a chance to take about a 10 mile ride today after work which included a bit of climbing and, of course, some descents to go along with the climbs. 

The first couple of miles I have to admit I stopped more than started while I tweaked the angle of the saddle. Okay, I had to stop three times to get it right but I do believe it's good now. This isn't really any different than any of the leather Brooks I own - always a bit finicky at first then locked in.

Since this was an urban ride on roads that vary from freshly paved to badly in need of help I was able to get a pretty good feel for the saddle in a variety of conditions. Long distance will have to wait till the actual weekend though.

My first impression on a real ride was that the saddle didn't need any breaking in. Admittedly I'm a big guy and have never had to spend a whole lot of time breaking in a leather Brooks. In fact my Select, stiffest of the bunch, felt pretty good from the outset and while it has adapted a bit since November when it was new, I've never felt uncomfortable.

That being said, the C-17 has been comfortable from the get go as well (angle not withstanding). I can feel some give in it when going over bumps (that I don't see - usually I use my legs as shocks on the ones I do). It doesn't feel like it's giving to much and needs to be tightened, just a little cushioning. I'm not sure how much lighter folks might fare but I suspect it's all good.

In fact, once I'd adjusted the angle, the biggest thing I noticed about the saddle is that I didn't actually notice it. Since all my bikes use one B-17 or another I'm pretty used to having more or less the same experience on all my bikes - thus I really only notice anything when something is 'off.' 

The ride was fun and I'm looking forward to giving it a longer workout this weekend.

"Did it stick to your clothes like you thought it would?"

Umm..sort of and sort of not. The top of the saddle, the part that is partially cloth, is fine. It doesn't stick or drag on my clothes. I tend to wear MUSA knickers, shorts of the same sorts of materials, and Columbia convertible pants (wear 'em long to work and shorts on the way home). I can't say how jeans or other actual natural material might do, but the man made fibers I wear don't have an issue with the top of the saddle.

But...and this has only happened twice in a bunch of dismounts, the bottom edge of the saddle is more or less exposed rubber. When I've swung my leg up to clear the saddle and dismount I have had it snag a bit on the fabric. The first time it happened I stopped, sat back down, and tried again. The second time I just twisted a bit and my leg came free. As I dismount when stopped I don't think there'll be a problem. If, however, you are one of those who dismounts while coasting it's something to think about.

I expect this will stop as the rubber gets rubbed a bit more. And, honestly, this could easily happen on the rougher bit of leather on the bottom edge of a new Brooks leather saddle - it's not like I haven't gotten myself caught on the nose once or twice (or thrice...). Still it felt like cloth catching on rubber. 

I also had another concern this morning. Normally I leave my helmet out to dry out on my lanai but for some reason last night I slung the helmet straps over the nose of the saddle. Remember, this saddle is 'natural.' Well this morning I discovered an ugly stap mark underneath the wear the helmet strap had been. Shoots. I didn't realize my strap was that sweaty. I figured I'd be careful in the future and thought about how I'd clean this up. I locked the bike up at work (we have a combo locked cage with racks) and did my eight hours. 

When I came out the mark was gone. Clearly it was just moisture. 

I guess this makes sense. As I recall from prior days plastic saddles that aren't at all absorbent just get slick and icky when they get wet (from rain or more likely, sweat). Leather, of course, does absorb a bit. Well apparently so does the fabric on the saddle. What this means in the long run I don't know, but it dried out and no mark was left.

Given how folks sweat this might, on the natural saddle, lead to moisture marks one might not wish to explain. :-)

In any case, after a short 10 mile ride I'm happy with the saddle.

Now, as for it's looks. I actually like the thing. No, it's not leather, but it's not a plastic bit of awfulness either. It looks like a quality saddle. Do I like the looks more than my leather saddles...not, not really, but it's not, at least to my mind, ugly. In fact it matches my Acorn bags on the Hunq fairly well so it doesn't look out of place at all.

That's it for now. I'll have a long ride this weekend (hopefully) and will report back again on how I feel after at least a couple of dozen miles.

Aloha,

Bob

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[Ron Mc]

I agree the saddle has racy lines - I think it looks good, though the material composition takes some getting used to.  

On Thursday, June 6, 2013 9:13:12 PM UTC-5, Statrixbob wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

Precisely. It's just my opinion, not an edict I'm trying to impress on others. Who knows, I might see one in person and like it. I change my mind about things all the time.

 

Joe "who you callin' moody" Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Michael]

I wonder how they bonded the cloth top to the rubber.

 

I wonder if people will Amber Shellac their saddles. 

[Ron Mc]

If the Cambium comes in at the low end of the market, think of all the goats' lives that will be spared.  Of course, a lot more cyclists will be profiled for their canvas shorts.  

[Mojo]

Thank you Bob for reviewing and posting. So you like it! One thing I noticed is the overall shape is different. Yes it looks 17cm wide at the back, but the back is not flat but curved, and the back-to-front profile doesn't look like it has the dip. Both of these features seem important to me. But you don't miss them? Or am I not analyzing the saddle correctly from your photos?

 

So far I have found the Avocet O2 women's saddle seems to best emulate the B17 in a plastic saddle. Unfortunately they are few and far between and when you find them, they're often in bad shape http://compare.ebay.com/like/360660973043?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar

 

 

[Ron Mc]

interesting  my buddy has a man's Avocet O2 on his original Fisher (before he had to add Gary to the billboard) mountain bike.  It looks crazy narrow - like 13 cm.  

[Garth]

Ron, the O2 saddles came in different widths, from 5.6 inches for the Men's racing to 7 inches for the Womens. Hence the Womens being "like" a Brooks in that regard.
http://www.avocet.com/saddlepages/saddlespecs.html#anchor181086

Avocet is still in business . I spoke them a a few years ago about saddles and tires and they indicated they either were or are making some, but they were not firm about it. It was quite odd really.

[Robert F. Harrison]

On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 6:07 AM, Mojo <gjtr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thank you Bob for reviewing and posting. So you like it! One thing I noticed is the overall shape is different. Yes it looks 17cm wide at the back, but the back is not flat but curved, and the back-to-front profile doesn't look like it has the dip. Both of these features seem important to me. But you don't miss them? Or am I not analyzing the saddle correctly from your photos?

 

The 'dip' does appear to be missing but in practice, at least for me, it seems that the rubber is flexible enough that when actually seated you don't notice it - in other words, it gives a bit. Were they to engineer a dip into the shape it would probably give too much leaving in a chasm rather than between rolling hills as it were. 

It does feel different from by B-17's but not much and not bad. So yes, I like it. I can't say that it's better than any of my other Brooks nor can I say much about longevity or even how I feel about it on a long ride (tomorrow hopefully).

Aloha, Bob

[Chris Halasz]

If anyone's interested in an O2 W (I interpreted the suffixes as W for wide, M for medium, and R for racing), I have a very good condition - newish - later version, in Ti and leather, of course.

The later version has the more accentuated padding and cutout.

Cheers,

Chris

[Matthew J]

> I spoke them a a few years ago about saddles and tires and they indicated they either were or are making some, but they were not firm about it. It was quite odd really. 

Believe for a while Avocet would only sell them in groups for teams.  Not sure why they have such a catch as catch can approach to their marketing.

[Doug Williams]

I can't see the Cambium replacing my B17 Select anytime soon. But then...what does it weigh? I wonder if the Cambium might break into the "I like Brooks but they are too heavy" market?

 

I wonder what a C17 on titanium rails would weigh? Perhaps Brooks could sell them to the carbon crowd?

[Ron Mc]

C17 si also officially a composite material - I think you nailed it there, Doug - the frame is aluminum instead of steel.  This saddle will open up a market to them.  They are not expecting to lose us over this saddle, they're expecting to gain others.  

[Robert F. Harrison]

And now the final bit, at least for now. I rode the new C-17 Cambium from Honolulu to Haleiwa (73.5 miles from where I started to where I stopped). 

The saddle was fine and my rump doesn't feel like it had a bad time of it. I think that I might have been slightly more comfortable with one of my reliable B-17s (like the I did this ride with on Memorial Day). On the other hand it may simple be the way I was feeling today. I'd really have to A/B this several times to report reliably. 

The saddle did pick up a bit of dirt today, mostly from my hands though I tried to be careful. It is the natural color version and this wouldn't be an issue with black or another darker color.

So far so good with the Cambium. I think it's really going to come down to a matter of taste as to whether one likes this thing or not. I'm not going to switch out all my leather saddles for the C-17, but I'm finding it to be a quality product that's comfortable without break-in, looks good if it's to your taste, and doesn't involve livestock.

The ride itself was nice. I had a couple of mechanical issues after 60 or so miles. I started hearing a lot of rattling. On my RIvs that's pretty rare so I slowed and tried to narrow down the noise. Turns out that, even though I did use beeswax, one of my bottle cages had loosened. Not a biggie. A couple turns with a handy tool and I was off....

...only to find that I could seem to select certain gears and when I tried I heard...a lot of rattling. Hmmm...this seemed a bit more serious so I immediately pulled over. Looking down at the rear derailleur I discovered that  a bit of wire had wrapped itself around the rear cassette. It took a couple of minutes to untangle but didn't do any damage. Once I took off my gears worked normally and everything was silent again.

When I got to Haleiwa I had a quick smoothie and then sat outside at a Thai place so I could get a nice bowl of Tom Ka - Thai coconut based soup. Yum. Just thing after a long ride.

I then hopped the regular bus (all our buses have bike racks) and my troubles really began. I had no trouble putting bike in the rack, fit fine and the springed loop was tight around my front wheel. The driver braked and moved and braked while I was trying pay and I figured, "Oh great, a cowboy."

How right I was. This guy really braked hard, cornered poorly, and I swear he hunted out potholes (though I won't put that one in my complaint). 

In any case as we approached town (after 30 miles? of cowboy driving) he called out and said, "You'd better get your bike, you didn't put it on properly." BS. In any case, the springed loop was off and my biking was leaning forward pretty far. I secured it and had to endure a lecture from the driver on using bungie cords (I've never needed one before btw). Finally I just said fine, I'll take my bike. I took it off, he drove away and I discovered I was f'd.

The bike had leaned so far forward it has actually damaged my rear rim. It wobbled something fierce and I figured I'd have to true it up. I wish. As it turns out the rim was actually cracked. It didn't look particularly safe to ride, but after opening the back brake I gave it a try and decided that as it was broken anyway I might as well try to get home the final 6 miles. It held. Not something I'd really want to do but I take really low traffic streets so I figured it was better than walking.

I've got a few photos from the ride today and you can see a couple pictures of the rim taken after the fact.

When I got home I switched seat posts and saddles with the Quickbeam so I can ride to work tomorrow. I'll take a few pictures of how it looks on the QB and let everyone know how I like it on a single speed.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mgps-bob/sets/72157634040592240/

Aloha 

Broken Wheel Bob

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[Ron Mc]

thanks for the report - now I'm jonesing better thai food than we can get here...

[Deacon Patrick]

Bummer! Brutal! Bad, bad, belligerent buffooned bus! Glad the ride was a good one though!

With abandon,

Patrick

[Robert F. Harrison]

I've now moved the C-17 over to my Quickbeam. After the demise of my Hunq's rear wheel it seemed to be the right move. I put in about 12 miles so far today and, once again, the saddle was good. And as I'd moved the entire seat post I didn't really have to spend any time get the angle right.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mgps-bob/sets/72157634057431129/

That's probably it for now on this topic for me unless someone has specific questions. I'll keep riding it and fill out the surveys Brooks sends me. Maybe at the end of the summer I'll post a long term review. 

I may also move it over to my Bike Friday in a week or two in preparation for RAGBRAI 2013. Of course I'll be posting that report to the BF list. :-) Anyone from this list going to the ride in Iowa this year?

Aloha,

Bob

On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 5:43 AM, Zoraster <mindh...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm setting up two bikes for easy rides this month. A bit of rest this year and simple rides to local shops with the wife. The Touring bike has to wait for next year. The new Brooks Saddle looks made for the bikes I'm building! Finally Getting my wife to enjoy rides with me! My Brooks love continues!

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[Joe Bernard]

There's a Bike Friday list?

[Robert F. Harrison]

No,  there is only the RBW owners bunch list.  But if another list existed and if it were about Bike Fridays more information would be available here :

http://mx.bikefriday.com/mailman/listinfo/yak

Aloha,

Bob

[Joe Bernard]

Thanks, I found that and a couple others with that newfangled Googley thing you kids talk so much about. I've always like those little foldy/take-apart bikes, but never bothered to look for a forum before.

[Tim Gavin]

Robert-

I'm a new Riv owner ('97 Road) and will be riding Thurs, Fri, and Sat of my first RAGBRAI this year.

Tim

[Ron Mc]

New Brooks mail today - 145 quid for this saddle.  that's the same price as a Select Grade B17, etc.  Looks like the wrong end of the market to me.  

[Joe Bernard]

Hmm. I assumed this would be an attempt to make a Brooks saddle more accessible to the masses, both in construction and price. I don't think the market is hollering for a Brooks just as pricey as the leather ones, but without the leather. An odd decision, in my opinion.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Robert F. Harrison]

Actually my reading of the letter is that their first production run is going to be a limited edition at 145 quid. These will all be numbered. I would suspect that sales after the limited edition will be less expensive. 

"Now, on Monday 17th June, a specially dedicated website for the new Cambium Saddles goes live and an initial limited edition is available for sale with each saddle's number etched into its nose rivet. We are offering a total of 1,200 pieces:

-1,000 C17 Gents Saddles

-200 C17s Ladies Saddles"

http://www.brooksengland.com/catalogue-and-shop/saddles/touring+%26+trekking/Cambium+C17+Ltd+Edition/

In the surveys I've filled out as one of the first 200 (it went up) I've kept saying I'd pay under $125 (or was it $135) which was the lowest option. Not that they'll listen to me. :-)

Aloha, 

Bob

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[Joe Bernard]

Hmm, good point. Although calling 1000 non-leather Brooks saddles "limited" is pushing the concept, in my opinion. I'm not at all convinced there's much of a market for one.

 

Joe "I've been wrong before" Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Matthew J]

There are a growing number of prosperous vegans in the UK, US, EU, and of course India, who like nice things without dead animals in them.  The majority is not yet enlightened, but we are growing and we are very willing to spend our money on products that don't need to kill an animal to make.

And yes, many currently available race saddles are synthetic.  They are also for the most part gawsh forsaken torture devices.

[Joe Bernard]

Yes, you've gone out of your way to impress upon me your vegan ways, and the error of mine. I'm not interested in the politics of leather Brooks saddles, but thanks for playing.

[Peter Morgano]

I worked in a Vegan restaurant for a long time (a lot of fixed gear bikes) and the owner made it a point not to make the non-vegans feel like they were baby killing satan worshippers. I would imagine the smart people at Brooks would do the same and not market this as a "this saddle will make you sleep better at night" kind of thing. I see nowhere on the site where Brooks is advertising this as a Vegan saddle.  Is some part of the Cambium made in china? Did some child worker slave to make it? Maybe that should be more important.  

[Steve Palincsar]

Wouldn't it be nice to discuss this saddle on the basis of its merits
rather than all this /politics/?

[Peter Morgano]

Its too narrow for my fat ass. If they make a wide one in a year or two I will give it a look. Should come in somewhat cheaper than the standard offerings considering its made of rubber and cotton.

On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 10:22 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

Wouldn't it be nice to discuss this saddle on the basis of its merits
rather than all this /politics/?

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2013-06-17 at 22:24 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
> Its too narrow for my fat ass. If they make a wide one in a year or
> two I will give it a look. Should come in somewhat cheaper than the
> standard offerings considering its made of rubber and cotton.

Yes, exactly like this.

[Matthew J]

Actually not politics at all.

 

The nternet combined with inexpensive global shipping is changing the world of commerce.  Companies that know how to take advantage of both make money products targetting global niche markets.  Vegan products make up a growing, multi-million market.  Brooks is joining many large and small companies that realize this and are making products for it.

 

One would think fans of a lugged steel cycle company that has kepts true its niche through clever marketing and the internet would appreciate that other companies are finding other niches the same way.  I guess different strokes only applies where we agree with what the differences are.

 

And yes, I certainly hope this is the start of something that finds a level of quality and cost effectiveness such that the product sells to all, not just for the niche.

[Matthew J]

Made in the UK AFAIK.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2013-06-18 at 06:34 -0700, Matthew J wrote:
> Actually not politics at all.

I disagree. When I read about veganism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism it's all politics. Using the
word is invoking politics.

Why "Vegan" for this saddle, and not any of the many, many plastic
saddles on the market? Would the old Brooks mattress saddle that used
to come on most of the cheap 3-speeds be "Vegan" as well?

>
> The nternet combined with inexpensive global shipping is changing the
> world of commerce. Companies that know how to take advantage of both
> make money products targetting global niche markets. Vegan products
> make up a growing, multi-million market. Brooks is joining many large
> and small companies that realize this and are making products for it.

If there is one thing there is no shortage of in this world, it's
plastic bicycle saddles. That's no "niche market," it is the
mainstream.

>
> One would think fans of a lugged steel cycle company that has kepts
> true its niche through clever marketing and the internet would
> appreciate that other companies are finding other niches the same way.
> I guess different strokes only applies where we agree with what the
> differences are.
>
> And yes, I certainly hope this is the start of something that finds a
> level of quality and cost effectiveness such that the product sells to
> all, not just for the niche.

Every saddle on every bike in every LBS is "vegan". I'd call that "not
just for the niche," wouldn't you?

[Matthew J]

Apparently you have not been following the earlier discussions on the Cambium.

 

Yes, mainstream saddles are frequently plastic.  I and others interested in leather free alternatives to quality Brooks and Berthoud saddles have said and this and other bicycle forums that the plastic saddles all tend to be both be horribly uncomfortable and have a short life span.

 

The Brooks Cambium - which is not plastic, by the way - gives hope there may be an alternative.  I know many cyclists who avoid animal products (politically neutral enough for you?) that are looking forward to finally having a quality, leather free saddle that can provide lasting comfortable rides. 

 

Maybe the Cambium will not be that product.  Maybe it will.  I expect that Brooks hopes that it is.  Global response to the Cambium appears to be quite good.  Certainly getting a lot of press on line.  A niche has in fact been touched. 

 

[Zoraster]

I'm healing from Surgery. My bike rides are now limited to coffee shops and dining with the wife. My ride is no longer my comfy long distance tours (until next year). So for the comfy daily ride I switched to a nice Celeste Bianchi Milanno that fits perfect for these rides. Then I dreamed of the new Brooks Cambium on it. Yesterday I got my order in within 2 minutes of the email announcement of the special first edition ones. It's shipping already! Wife getting my Bianchi saddle on her Breezer and that's good two.

[Joe Bernard]

There are a growing number of prosperous vegans in the UK, US, EU, and of course India, who like nice things without dead animals in them. The majority is not yet enlightened, but we are growing and we are very willing to spend our money on products that don't need to kill an animal to make.

 

This was your response to me, which was the second time in this thread you had played this card. It is quite political, and saying "it's not political" is disingenuous. We are discussing the comfort/looks/price/marketability of the Brooks Cambium. The politics is not necessary.

[Matthew Joly]

Arguing comfort or lack thereof of something one has never used is not disingenuous?  

Your argument is the lack of leather should lower the market value of the product.  My response is to show there is in fact a significant market that values the lack of leather.

Zappos, to name one large company, allows people to search its site for Vegan shoes.  There are vegan restaurants throughout the world.  Vegan is a mainstream commercially acceptable market.  Vegan may have been political 10 years ago.  In 2013 it is not.

Matthew J

Chicago, IL

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2013-06-18 at 10:56 -0500, Matthew Joly wrote:
> Arguing comfort or lack thereof of something one has never used is not
> disingenuous?

Isn't that exactly what you are doing? I say again, the world is full
of platic saddles. Most cyclists find them comfortable. If you haven't
found one yet, you should go try all the various varieties available.
There are hundreds, if not thousands. Don't dismiss them all out of
hand as "uncomfortable" if you have not tried them.

> Zappos, to name one large company, allows people to search its site
> for Vegan shoes. There are vegan restaurants throughout the world.
> Vegan is a mainstream commercially acceptable market. Vegan may have
> been political 10 years ago. In 2013 it is not.

It damn sure is OT. And in this context, also political.

[Joe Bernard]

The thread was started by a person actually using the saddle, which is where discussions of comfort come in. You are injecting politics into it, then pretending you're not. I'm quite well versed in the tactics of political debate on the internet, and know the semantics game. I'm done with this.

[cyclotourist]

Because it's fun to watch the histrionics: http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/bavsss.htm

Cheers,
David

--

[JL]

I was just thinking that I hope Riv gets a few of these saddles in stock.  They have been supportive of Brooks as a brand and cyclists who want alternatives to leather products in the past so it seems plausible.  I don't need a new saddle but I am curious how this compares to my Brooks. 

FWIW I think Brooks is marketing this saddle as an "all weather" model and giving that reason for the change in materials. I would be shocked if consumer requests for a non-leather saddle made in a hammock style like their other saddles are was not part of their decision process though.

Jason Leach
SF, CA

[Scott Henry]

Gentlemen, take your panties, pull them out and untwist them.

Not sure how a persons dietary choices are thought of as political.   Barry, nor George, could care less what you eat.   

Go step away from the computer and have a Snicker's bar, some of you get cranky when you are hungry.   

Its a seat, you put your butt on it.  One may like it, one may not and still there is no way to tell till I put my butt on it.

Scott

Cheers,
Scott Henry
Dayton, OH

FTM-PTB

[Peter Morgano]

a snickers bar isn't vegan....sorry couldn't resist.

[Deacon Patrick]

Food isn't vegan, actually. All the woodland creatures displaced and slaughtered in the plowing and maintenance of those grain fields. Short of growing all my own food using only hand tools very slowly, I can't figure out how I could eat a truly vegan diet.

And it is absolutely a moral judgement to believe animals are equal to humans and thus deserving of the same treatment. That moral judgement has political ramifications. 

With abandon,

Patrick

[Doug Williams]

How sad that this is getting so off topic right when the “off topic” veers into territory that I (possessing both philosophy and political science degrees) am qualified to comment on.  J The vegan choice is a moral choice; often motivated by religion (of course, religion and morals often intertwine). But there is nothing political about a moral or religious decision UNTIL one tries to use political power to force one’s morals/religion on someone else. I didn’t see anyone proposing a tax or tariff on leather, so I think we are safe until that happens. If it then escalates and somebody tries to take away my Brooks B17 Select, we are going to have serious trouble. Short of that, we are all good. A vegan lifestyle often leads to politics, but being vegan (by itself) doesn’t imply political motivations. People are redefining terms here, this is a linguistic argument.

Back to bikes, this reminds me of “Fred”. The term Fred used to denote somebody who was a racer wannabe who rode a race bike and dressed like a racer while cruising down the bike path at 10 MPH. Obviously, the Freds didn’t like that term, so they redefined it to mean “anybody who doesn’t ride exactly what I ride and wear exactly what I wear”. I have been called “Fred” for riding in street clothes on platform pedals. The man calling me a “Fred” was sitting on a bench along the bike trail with his carbon fiber race bike. He was wearing shoes that he couldn’t walk in and matching diaper shorts and jersey.

[Patrick Moore]

??? 25K miles at least? Hardly short. Uncomfortable? Proof? Again 25 k miles over the years? My first Flite from circa 1990 that has been on half a dozen bikes with 7 k on the last one? Not to mention all the other Flites I've put thousands of miles on? And this is just one particular model of plastic saddle?

Don't make unsupported universal assertions.

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Matthew J <matth...@gmail.com> wrote:

I and others interested in leather free alternatives to quality Brooks and Berthoud saddles have said and this and other bicycle forums that the plastic saddles all tend to be both be horribly uncomfortable and have a short life span.

--

http://resumespecialties.com/index.html

patric...@resumespecialties.com

Albuquerque, NM

[Patrick Moore]

I'm going to have a nice steak tonight.

If there is one thing that annoys, it is badly reasoned yet still pompous self righteousness.

Don't eat animal products if you don't like to. Good Hindus don't, and good Orthodox monks don't, either. They have good reasons, but they don't assume a pose of pompous self righteousness. Hell, become a Jain, and sweep the ground before you as you walk, but don't spread it about, for God's sake.

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[William R.]

This is funny. Last year, right about this time, it was when Rapha had just introduced their new shoes made out of Yak leather. I was peacefully riding my B17'ed Sam when approached from behind by a large group of fast/racer types. As the group sped by me, a guy on a Colnago yelled for everyone to lookout for "Yak butter". It has stayed with me as the epitome of fredish brilliance!

[Matthew Joly]

Exactly what proof would you need.  To watch me and hundreds of other hammock saddle fans squirm while riding plastic saddles.

I've tried dozens of models over the years.  For a while I thought the Fizik Ronin [sp?] was going to be the one.  The padding wore down in less than a month.  Surface had visible abrasion marks.

My weight fluctuates around 160-165.  I don't think I am necessarily hard on saddles.

Bottom line most people pay big bucks for Brooks and Berthouds not for bling but because their bodies do not take to molded plastic saddles.  I don't think this is a controversial statement at all.

Matthew Joly

Chicago, IL

[Chris Halasz]

I'm wondering what the pant stain factor of the Cambium may be.

Some of my Brooks saddles have been OK this way, some less so.

Also wondering about the breathability or thermal experience in warm weather.

And shellacking of the cotton weave will not be allowed!

Chris
Tucson, AZ

[Robert F. Harrison]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Chris Halasz <cha...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm wondering what the pant stain factor of the Cambium may be.

 

Also wondering about the breathability or thermal experience in warm weather.

I've got the natural color model and as one might expect, haven't stained my pants. The worry would be the pants staining the saddle. I can't speak for any darker colored model. 

And, as I live in Hawaii which is reasonably warm and have ridden a 75 mile on the thing I can say that, at least for me, I had no problem with the saddle and it was a hot day. It didn't build up moisture (perhaps the cotton wicks a bit) and or seem too hot at any point.

Aloha,

Bob

[Jimmy Hutch]

WTB: Brooks Cambium C17

-Jimmy

[Robert F. Harrison]

:-) Given that there are about 200 in the wild right now it's a long shot, at least on this list. As far as I know I'm the only one on RBW-owners-bunch who owns one.

Aloha,

Bob

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 2:15 PM, Jimmy Hutch <ji...@jimmyhutchinson.com> wrote:

WTB:  Brooks Cambium C17

-Jimmy

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[Steve Palincsar]

Not sure about a "stain factor," but one tester on one of the forums
said the rough textured surface destroyed a pair of bib shorts.

[Garth]

Gee, anyone can order one right now, or is the obvious a disguise ? Only 145 British Pounds .... $226 USD.


I thought of all places ...... this place would be free of "vegan" talk. ! Ahahahahaahaha !

Whatever your "ism" is .... and we've all got our own ...... it won't last forever... none of them do.

I may not wish for violence of myself or anyone I know, but it's a choice. Every moment a choice. So to condemn another for their choice, when one day I chose the very same is the height of self induced amnesia , and actually creates more of the same. Condemnation for X creates more X .

[Matthew J]

On the commute today I noticed something - or more correctly thought of something I notice every day in a new light. 

 

That is, the high percentage of people using plastic shell style saddles who wear padded shorts.  Reading accounts of cycle tourers back in the 70's through even the 90's, it is glaring how few people then wore padded shorts on tour.  Padded shorts were for racers who trained day in day out.  Not for commuters, casual riders, or even people doing an annual multi-day or even cross country tour.

 

The cycling market has become so accustumed to padded shorts that no one asks what is it about most modern saddles that require special clothing for use?  I think those of us who use hammock saddles know the answer.

[Matthew J]

> Not sure about a "stain factor," but one tester on one of the forums
> said the rough textured surface destroyed a pair of bib shorts.

All the more reason to support sales of the Cambium if it gets some of the many who should not be wearing bibs in public out of them and into comfortable loose fitting shorts.

 

[Patrick Moore]

No one will deny you your preferences, for Brooks type saddles or for vegetarian eating. No one will deny that plastic saddles hurt you and wear out quickly for you. One will and must deny your reasoning that, because it is  is so for you, it is so universally in the absence of any further presented data and, in fact, in the presence of easily acquired data to the contrary. This fallacy is very, very strangely common!

I've ridden Flites almost exclusively (a San Marco, briefly; two Turbos, briefly; Brooks, Fujitas, Ideales, of various sorts, briefly, tho' the Pro while commuting for 12 or 18 months; I always came back to original issue Flites) for almost 25 years, and I abandoned padded shorts 10 years ago or more when I realized belatedly that there was no point, at least for rides under 50 miles. I wear regular underwear and street pants. 

There are tens of thousands - at least! - who ride plastic saddles for years on end without problem and without padded shorts -- look at the ratio of plastic saddles to hammock saddles. At least a fraction of those riders are comfortable. I would guess that this fraction is not too much smaller than the numbers who ride hammocks. I take that as sufficient proof that your original universally affirmative assertion is not true.

[Matthew J]

You are misreading my original post on the topic if you think I am arguing that all shell saddles are uncomfortable.  Rather, I said that Cambium gives hope to those of us who find shell saddles uncomfortable and prefer not to buy leather products.  I will point out that several people reading the list reached out to me off line saying they would be very happy to use a quality hammock saddle made without leather.

 

I spent hundreds probably thousands of dollars on shell saddles between 1998 and 2005 or so.  If shell saddles worked for me, I would use them.  I am glad they work for you.

 

I am not aware of any scientific survey on padded shorts use among cyclists.  The fact so many companies make and sell padded shorts and you see so many people wearing them certainly suggests significant numbers use them.  While this is good for the cycle industry economy, I question whether enough end users have asked themselves why they need to wear padded shorts to ride.

 

Given my experience with shell saddles versus hammock, I believe at least some percentage of people who use shell saddles and wear padded shorts will find they no longer need the pads on a hammock saddle.

[Joe Bernard]

 I will point out that several people reading the list reached out to me off line saying they would be very happy to use a quality hammock saddle made without leather.

 

I will point out that nobody was arguing against the idea. You're the one who brought up "dead animals" in a thread about the Cambium, and that polarizing language is what I objected to.

[Matthew J]

A comment meant as nothing more than a dramatic attempt to demonstrate why many people are in fact willing to pay a premium for a non-leather hammock saddle.  In hindsight I should have used one of those evil winky faces with those terms to make clear I had no intent to poke anyone in the eye. 

 

Apologies all around.

 

On point, it is certainly not yet clear thick laminated rubber and cotton can successfully replace animal skin in a hammock saddle.  Doc Martens among other high line shoe companies have finally come up with leather alternatives that are attractive, wear well, and seem to be durable.  If Brooks has finally found the right combination for hammock saddles, it will in fact have a market.

[Peter Morgano]

I think (from what the marketing looks like at least) that they are trying to penetrate the market that sees Brooks saddles as "precious." There are a lot of people that  think you cant get them wet, they need constant maintenance and take 3 years to get comfortable. All are only partly right but are myths that are for sure hurting the bottom line at Brooks. If they can tout a saddle that is weather proof, low maintenance and comfortable while having the quality feeling of a leather saddle they will for sure have a winner on their hands, and if they get some vegan/vegetarian fans along for the ride all the better for said bottom line.  I guess only time will tell. 

--

[Steve Palincsar]

I've been using padded shorts with hammock saddles for 40 years.

[Matthew J]

> I've been using padded shorts with hammock saddles for 40 years.  

Context, please.  Would you have an adverse reaction if not?  I do not wear padded shorts and hammock saddles are the only saddle that work for me.

[Matthew J]

> I think (from what the marketing looks like at least) that they are trying to penetrate the market that sees Brooks saddles as

> "precious."

 

Which never made sense to me.  A little proofide once a year and the things will last fifty years easy. 

 

> All are only partly right but are myths that are for sure hurting the bottom line at Brooks.

 

Is Brooks having financial troubles?  The amount of new products coming out of Brooks the last few years has been impressive.

(I am very pleased with my John O'Groats panniers.)

[Steve Palincsar]

I will never forget my first century attempt. 1973, shorts that are cut
off denim jeans with Y fronts underneath, no gloves, sneakers. By the
time I got to mile 75 there was no part of me that came into contact
with the bike that didn't hurt. Hands were on fire; feet were in pain
from where the top clips pressed on my big toe nails and where the front
and back edges of the Campagnolo pedals had dug trenches into them; and
I developed a new understanding of the Johnny Cash song "Burning Ring of
Fire" that I've never been able to forget.

I started wearing riding shorts after that ride. Gloves and cycling
shoes, too.

[Matthew J]

Human factors are fascinating.  Certainly respect that you made it work rather than give up.

[Peter Morgano]

"Is Brooks having financial troubles?  The amount of new products coming out of Brooks the last few years has been impressive."

 

I work in the financial sector and every company outside of super exclusive brands wants to expand their customer base and therefore profits, pretty simple capitalism at work.

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Matthew J <matth...@gmail.com> wrote:

Human factors are fascinating.  Certainly respect that you made it work rather than give up.

[Eric Platt]

Another data point.  I was in the habit of wearing padded short liners on a hammock saddle.  Then a while went with just underwear.  Because of the way I sit on the rear cantle of the saddle, this ended up causing a physical problem.  Moved over to an older Terry saddle and the problem went away with padded shorts.

 

Starting this year, decided to try the hammock with padded again.  Unfortunately the same physical issue appeared.  Once again back to the Terry and no problem.

 

It could be the issues had nothing to do with the change of clothing, but after having it happen twice, am not going to risk it again.  Just as likely it is my excessive weight on the saddle causing the issue.

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

[Brian Hanson]

To me this is a question of time in the saddle.  If I'm commuting or on a ride up to about 25 miles, normal shorts/undies are fine (though I still find cotton lousy due to lack of wicking).  If I'm doing a longer ride, I'll put on the padded wool shorts.  It's not just the padding that helps on longer rides. Loose-fitting pants/shorts rubbing for more than a few hours will eventually cause abrasions.  Seems to be physics (friction?).  I am guessing that everyone has a different "thick-skin" threshold.  It's like wool - some folks can't wear it without major itch.  

Brian

Seattle, WA

[Matthew J]

> If I'm doing a longer ride, I'll put on the padded wool shorts.  It's not just the padding that helps on longer rides. Loose-fitting

> pants/shorts rubbing for more than a few hours will eventually cause abrasions.  Seems to be physics (friction?).  

 

My tolerance weakness is overheating.  When I did my Northern Tier cross country tour, the first week or so I wore padded shorts fearing accumulated abrasion.  They were fine, if odd on the Pac Coast and mountains.  When I came into the hot northern plains the padding seemed to add to the heat effect.  A couple hours in and my shorts were soaked. 

 

Dropping the pads in favor of unpadded looser fitting light weight shorts kept me cooler and did not lead to any extreme abrasion. 

 

By the time I reached the Black Hills I tossed the padded shorts and bought a couple pair of running shorts which (just barely) held up through to Boston.