Made in Taiwan AHH?

[Jonathan D.]

Looking through the new brochure it looks like the AHH is going to be also be made in Taiwan. I love the idea and it looks in between sizes with Sam and the AHH will be the 650B Sam and the Atlantis the 650B Joe Appaloosa.

[Joe Bernard]

How did you get one o' them there brochures?

[Jonathan D.]

Sources in PDX.

[Max S]

That AHH does look good! Perhaps more upslope on the TT, like the NeuTlantis?..

- Max “many good choices bad?” in A2

[Jonathan D.]

Now we just need the made in Taiwan Hunq. Would also love just one of these versions to come with disc brakes.

[Chris Lampe 2]

I have to admit, I was having some reservations on the catalog after seeing the illustrations posted on the Blog/Bluhg but this looks really good.   I think I was afraid the bikes would be illustrations and I'm glad to see they used real photos. 

[Lester Lammers]

Yup, looks like a MIT Homer is in the works and the chainstays  look rather long. Not a bad thing.

[christian poppell]

There's one built up hanging in the shop right now. I didn't get to ride it or even get a detailed look. The only thing that I really remember about it was that it had the ball and socket seatcluster.

[Bob Lovejoy]

I was going to put down a lot or questions, but I suppose there is no sense in guessing... I will wait mostly patiently for more news and/or the brochure/catalog and art work!

One question...Jonathan (or anyone)... Is there any more detail on sizing or geometry in the catalog?  I saw the page on "Frame Sizing" but would sure love to know more.

But wait patiently I will...

Bob Lovejoy

Galesburg, IL

P.S.  If anyone receives their catalog in the mail, please post to let people know to start looking!

[Eric Karnes]

Seems like a really smart move! My guess is that the MUSA Rivs have become a bit out of reach for many potential customers...not to mention the Waterford lead times. This (and the new Atlantis) should help solve that. Still wish the ETTs were the same as the older models, but I've come to terms with my own bizarre proportions. In my aged wisdom I'll stop demanding random companies submit to my whims.

Eric

[Jonathan D.]

The catalog has information on PBH but not detailed geometry measurements. It is really beautifuly done and I am guessing they get shipped out soon. Also show the Billie and the Wave bars. I am waiting to use my credit for one of those bars.

My take is that they are trying to create more size options for the made in Taiwan bikes. They run in between and then there is the wheel size differention. It might create some fun forum discussion again about how much a AHH and SH compare or new Atlantis and Joe. The new Ahh does have a sloping too tube and probably stouter steel like the SH.

[Belopsky]

pbh info

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/files/sizing_1024x1024.jpg?v=1524781211

[Eamon Nordquist]

New Homer looks good. It looks like there is a little extra top tube upslope, and a little more chainstay length without becoming one of the long bikes. Not knocking the long bikes - I have no doubt they ride great and I hope they sell a ton of 'em. They are just too long to work for ME for practical reasons. I think the new Homer looks like a winner. Looks like I'd probably be a 58 in the version (89 pbh).

Eamon

Seattle

[Bob Lovejoy]

Eamon, 

Seems like 89-90pbh is somewhat the new dividing line in the recent sizing, at least with the Roadini, Homer, Atlantis, the Appaloosa and Clem H.  I have an 89pbh as well, ride a 58cm Appaloosa, and am thinking (maybe very fuzzy, optimistic thinking) I would want a 61.5cm Homer as primarily a road bike, with a little gravel thrown in, with the caveat that I prefer a slightly larger frame (relative to the norm) versus slightly smaller.  I would also probably run 700x38's, hopefully knocking the max SO height down just a fraction.

Facts, pictures and others' experiences could certainly push me the other way.  I'll keep watching, reading, and hoping at least a few more measurements make it out to the masses.

A great looking bike though... I will be excited to hear more!

Bob

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

64cm MIT AHH is rather appealing (for my 97pbh.)  I had previously considered an AHH as a longer term investment to replace some older projects and to complement my 65cm Clem H for a 2 bike stable.  Although highly unlikely with the expense of current MUSA/Waterford-made versions it might actually be possible with a more affordable MIT option.

Curious to see more details and looking forward to the new catalog.  With the MIT Atlantis announcement I had also debated whether I'd want to sell my Clem H to help fund and replace with a 62cm MIT Atlantis (maybe with two wheelsets and a couple bar setups to swap around at leisre) but those thoughts have since passed after taking a nice hour long ride with the Clem.  I realized I was only tempted by the aesthetics and legacy of the Atlantis and simply had not been getting enough mileage with the Clem so my mind has been put at ease since getting more miles.  The 65cm fits me perfectly and rides so well that selling would certainly be regrettable.

[Eamon Nordquist]

In the Waterford version, I think I'd want either a 59 or 61. I also like large frames, but I've got a short torso compared to my inseam. For myself I'd err on the side of getting a comfortable reach with drop bars, since top tube slope looks like it would eliminate the need for too much quill extension. If I was going for upright bars, I'd definitely consider the next size up.

Eamon

Seattle

As a reference, I bought a Trek 520 in 1983, and it was 61 or 62 (they called it 24"). It always felt a bit big when I reached for the hooks. That one got stolen and I replaced it with another 83 520, but the next size down (about 58cm ctt), which makes the reach better. If I had known better, the big one probably would have felt just fine with a shorter stem, but I was too ignorant to even ask about such a thing then. If I had a custom, I'd like the seat tube of the bigger one, and the top tube of the smaller one.

[Bob Lovejoy]

Agreed... I think that is why I cling to the older style frames, though I am tiring of the chase there.  I just measured my favorite (road) bike, a 650B conversion that works incredibly well, and it is 62cm ST (ctc) with a 57cm level TT, 10cm Nitto stem...  If it ever came to that, lottery winnings in hand(!),  I might just send it off to a builder and ask them to build me the same bike, with only a few more braze-ons and a few minor tweaks.

That said, the Rivendell bikes have always worked really well for me, not that I have had that many, and never the Waterford or custom versions.  My Appaloosa is a a truly excellent bike, a little heavy with my touring build but that's mostly on me.  I had a Romulus that I still miss (a 61cm).

I totally agree on the effective TT length and reach being really important.  I have bikes sized between 58-63cm (ST) but they all fall between 58-60cm TT.  Well, the Appaloosa does not, but a 6cm stem brought the bars back in.  And I will say the newer, sloping top tube Riv's help get a level bars/saddle height balance that I prefer.

Bob




On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 3:56:13 PM UTC-5, Eamon Nordquist wrote:

... If I had a custom, I'd like the seat tube of the bigger one, and the top tube of the smaller one.

[Lum Gim Fong]

So looks like Roadeo is the only thing close to a “level” TT bike they make now? And also the only road bike?
Everything else looks longbike or touring or MTN or town now? Is that right for the current lineup?

So if you want a traditional looking road frame it’s Roadeo only at this point?

[Belopsky]

You are still able to get a waterford built one or a nobilette custom.

If you want to ride in 2 years

[Lum Gim Fong]

I’m holding out for a 650b canti Roadeo, or whatever lighter walled level-2degree TT canti 650b bike comes next.

[Joe Bernard]

The Roadeo you're describing would be a Nobilette custom. Also, the Roadini is most definitely a road bike; it's not accurate to say Roadeo is the only Riv road bike available.

[Belopsky]

roadini is sloping toptube

[Joe Bernard]

Igor, I'm responding to the statement (not from you) that Roadeo is the only road bike. A. Roadini was specifically designed as a dropbar road bike, B. Roadeo, AHH, Roadini, Sam-before-the-newest and Cheviot are all road bikes with caliper brakes.

It's fine to come on this forum and lament the demise of mostly-level toptubes if that's what you're into, but it's wildy inaccurate to posit the demise of Rivendell road bikes. There's a bunch of them.

[Lum Gim Fong]

I’m talking traditional 10-speed 1950-1982 looking diamond frame. Sorry for the confusion.

[Lum Gim Fong]

Not positing. Just asking. See the “?”.

[Christopher Murray]

The Roadini is a beautiful bike- if you can get past the tig welds. Mine just arrived and the quality looks as good as my Rodeo or Ram. The MIT bikes seem every bit as well made as any other Riv (Customs excluded). I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

Chris

[Joe Bernard]

You are correct, Christopher. The differences between my MIT Cheviot and previous Rivs - Rom, Ram, Saluki, AHH..all Toyo frames - are in the lug details. I can detect no difference in quality of construction or ride. The folks brazing these things up in Taiwan seem very proud of their work.

[Kieran J]

I might be into a 64 if it does not have the 2TT !!

KJ

[Bill Lindsay]

I think Igor is demonstrating his flair for hyperbole.  He's never ordered a custom Rivendell, let alone waited two years for it.

I ordered a Nobilette-built Legolas in November of 2017, and even with huge delays at the painter, I received it in April 2018.  The painter had an illness in his immediate family, so a normal 5 week turn became 10 weeks. 

My dataset of ONE does not guarantee you'll get your custom in 5 months, but Igor's dataset of ZERO also does not indicate you will wait two years.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

[Belopsky]

My dataset of 1 Waterford build says "Add 2months to the lead time they give you"

[Bill Lindsay]

I'm going to go ahead and bet a dollar that Waterford did not tell you 22 months on your custom Gunnar, and then deliver you your custom Gunnar in 24 months.  In fact, I'll bet two dollars.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

[Joe Bernard]

This thread got weird, eh? Good times!

[Bill Lindsay]

Right?  Remember that one time I got all snarky because somebody was wrong on the internet?  That one time being called: the internet.



Me



...also me

[John G.]

Is it stated anywhere that Waterford AHHs are a thing of the past? I assumed you could still get one. If you can’t, I won’t moan. I’ve spent 4 years gazing at them, but haven’t ordered one. Wish I had.

[Joe Bernard]

I presume you'll still be able to order one same as the Atlantis. All Waterford Rivs now are basically a custom frame built to a specific spec, so there's not much reason to tell someone no if they want to pay for one and wait.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Well, my custom took about a year, but it is about as custom as you can get in terms of difficulty in design and implementation.  However it was worth every minute of waiting!

Toshi

[Grant @ Rivendell]

The catalog go into who gonna make what bikes where for how much and how good they are. What it doesn't say (on p.4, the page that addresses this) got left out not to sneak, but for two other reasons--easy to read bad stuff into it, and there wasn't enough space to nuance it so you wouldn't. It is that for Homers and Atlantises we have a longer leash/fewer design restrictions in Taiwan than we do now in America. As the designs e- or de-volve (as we're all free to see it!), we here at RBW find ourselves drifting over to the sources that can happily and expertly pull off all the dimensions and details, and then deliver frames we can sell for $1,100 or so less.
It's counter-everything you've been reared to believe, that quality and value can go up as price goes down, but there you go.

Top tube slopes are always going to be a concern, but as somebody pointed out, rather than paint horizontal as THE "classic" or so style, it's better to say it was the common style for 32 years beginning 1950. I don't know how precise those dates are, but they make the point that historically, top tube slopes have been all over the map (protractor?). We're not shooting for "the 1890s look" or anything like that. It's more like we're not making bikes to conform to an era that was characterized by explosive growth and maturation of cycling in America, which copied for good and for bad the racing styles of the day.

Rivendells end up being a mix of tradition and irreverence, which means we disappoint those who want us to keep the flame juiced and be the Poghliaghis of Walnut Creek; and we're too backwards for the Scatante carbon-disc crowd. I don't see our bikes as a compromised combo. They hit a good spot, but it has to be a spot that feels good to be hit, and it's not one of those for everybody---which isn't to say I don't wish it was or don't think it ought to be, just that it can't be. We're lucky to be here, recently saved and thankful, and on we go, comrades!

[tc]

So, with Bill’s Legolas — a frame long ago discontinued — I assume that unless the blueprints and tooling to make them have been eaten, anyone could call Riv and ask for any of the discontinued frames.

Anyone experience a case where this isn’t true?

Tom

[Bill Lindsay]

Anybody can order a Legolas today.  It'll be built by Nobilette.  Mark A will call Mark N. and tell him "build a Legolas, size xx, and Mark N will know precisely what to do because he has the sheet.  My personal 'standard options' were

-slightly more TT slope (2 degree vs 1.5 degree)
-no pump peg
-no rear brake hanger
-fender bosses on rear bridges

Anybody can order a Nobilette Bombadil, Glorious, Wilbury today. 

I don't know if you can order a Nobilette frame that says Quickbeam on it, or Rambouillet, or Bleriot, or Simple One. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

[Lester Lammers]

It's just great to know that you can still get a blast from the past.

[John G.]

Looking forward to the catalog. I will be interested to see the differences between the MIT Homer and Sam--is down to cantis vs calipers? STA and chainstays? Clearance? 

I have to say that my two most recent non-Riv frames were Made in Taiwan, and they really are tremendously well done. I've heard some folks say that MIT forks are overbuilt, but IMHO that's not really a problem unless you're running 23-25mm tires. 

[Lester Lammers]

Different is what Rivendell has always been and evolution is not a bad thing.I found Riv when I was looking for a fatter tire all around bike. I bought a Bleriot frame. Bulls eye. I regret selling it. I am really excited about my forthcoming MIT 53cm Atlantis. I have a 1987, I believe, Panasonic MC7500 HT MTB with 26" tires. It has 17" chainstays and there is some heel strike with rear bags. Ain't gonna be there with the new Atlantis. As a parting thought I saw some Garmin pedals for $999 or so. I think they alert of an impending heart attack.:-) Is the price of a MIT frame reasonable? Like yeah.

I have a recent 55cm Cheviot. The long chainstays make for a Buick Electra 225 ride. A bit sluggish for me at the tender age of 66 but I'll keep it and put it back in service after I can't get my leg over the Atlantis. You can't stop the clock.

Thanks Grant!

.

[RichS]

Les,

That’s a good one: Buick Electra 225 ride! From now on my Atlantis rides like an Electra 225:-)

We only owned a LeSabre. The Electra was more upscale.

Regards,
Richard

[Michael, SF/CA]

FWIW ordered a MUSA AHH in Feb 2018 with expectations set for a full 6-9 month lead time. To my surprise, the frame showed up at RBW two months after Waterford received the order.

Yes, I knew about the MIT AHH (and rode the sample at RBWHQ - it’s awesome!) before I put my deposit down, but I’ve been eyeing the original design + cantilevers for years!

[Jacob P]

Maybe I missed this, but does anyone know the frame size range for the MIT AHH? Will they be producing the 71cm there? 

[Kainalu V.]

71cm with a any degree of slanted toptube would make for some seriously massive bikeage, so I'd guess not. 68cm with 2 degrees for meas please...
-Kai
BK NY

[Bob Lovejoy]

I have not seen the catalog in person but the picture of the AHH (MIT) page Jonathan posted (first in this thread) shows up to 64cm frames.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/Nvs_Ftb1Rps/pwCip3DxAgAJ

And notes on the recommended PBH ranges...  

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/files/sizing_1024x1024.jpg?v=1524781211

Bob

[John G.]

Any idea when these will be available? I don’t need one, but I NEED one.